Are the Kids stronger than Dabura?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

When Gohan fought Dabura, he had a considerable advantage over him, forcing him to abandon hand to hand combat and resort to magic to stay competitive, and Dabura still failed to overhelm him when Gohan emerged unharmed from a clean shot. Gohan even overpowered him on a strength

However, this is how Gohan vs Goten played out:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goten was forcing Gohan to be on defensive during their sparring match. The kids seems to be grouped with Gohan as well, considering it's implied it won't take too long for them to surpass him:

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.3-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P2.4
Context: Bulma talks to Gohan about Trunks
Bulma: “[Vegeta] says he’s reached a good age to begin basic training, so he’s teaching him grappling. Apparently he wants to make Trunks even stronger than you.”

Thoughts?

[TobyS]

The kids are the most overhyped.

Gohan was Rusty but rapidly became unrusty. That panel of him fighting Goten is probably him only half way back to form.

He's also not going to be making life of death effort against his 7 year old brother.

Dabra was said to be about on par with Perfect Cell. You can claim this meant initial perfect cell, but either way Goku later revises this estimate upwards. So he's gotta be in the ball park of Super Perfect Cell.

The kids are weaker than Piccolo individually even post Rosat judging by Piccolo Buu and maybe even below 18 pre.

Super validated this as far back as the U6 Arc where even Vegeta wanted Piccolo over the "stronger-than-Goten" Trunks.

The kids are strong for their age and strong enough to be fusion fodder.

Dabra wrecks Goten. Even if they were close in power we'd see a Base Goku vs SS2 Cauli situation where Dabras experience wrecks Goten.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan was Rusty but rapidly became unrusty. That panel of him fighting Goten is probably him only half way back to form.

I doubt tbh. Gohan was still fighting pretty sloopy when facing Dabura.

He's also not going to be making life of death effort against his 7 year old brother.

True, forgot about that. On hand to hand combat Goten still gave more trouble than Dabura, though.

Dabra was said to be about on par with Perfect Cell. You can claim this meant initial perfect cell, but either way Goku later revises this estimate upwards. So he's gotta be in the ball park of Super Perfect Cell.

SPC was right on Kid Gohan's tail, who's labeled as far, far stronger than Teen Gohan, who's stronger than Dabura. Vegeta was confident on killing Dabura easily as well, and he still weaker than Kid Gohan and perhaps SPC at this point.

and maybe even below 18 pre.

Woah, i have to stop you right here. With a suppressed blast from them 18 went from completely confident on taking them to heavily worried about her safety, going as far as throwing a Kienzan on them instead of fighting them directly.

Super validated this as far back as the U6 Arc where even Vegeta wanted Piccolo over the "stronger-than-Goten" Trunks.

Doesn't that only mean FnF Piccolo > SSJ Trunks? It can be the whole experience thing as well, considering that's the reason the humans were chosed over the kids for the ToP.

The kids are strong for their age and strong enough to be fusion fodder.

When you take SSJ2 and 3 into the mix, yeah, the Kids were fodder. I think Mr Toriyama still wanted to group all the SSJs together on the Buu Arc, though.

Dabra wrecks Goten. Even if they were close in power we'd see a Base Goku vs SS2 Cauli situation where Dabras experience wrecks Goten.

True. Even Goten and Trunks fighting together would likely fall to something like Dabura's spit or his sword.

[dragonball0900]

The kids are stated to be way stronger than Android 18 and had feats that put them well above Android 16 and even Semi Perfect Cell or ASSJ Vegeta. However, since Piccolo became dominant inside Super Buu, he should be stronger than them (that's later proven in Super). But the way that Piccolo was not that dominant inside Super Buu (such as not having all of Piccolo's clothes like later on when Goku and Vegeta were removing him outside of Super Buu), it shows that the kids shouldn't be that far behind him.

I have Trunks in the same level Future Trunks had in the Cell Games (which means he can have a good fight with a Cell Jr or Vegeta from 7 years ago). While Goten can be at the level 50% Goku from the Cell Games had. Here are my numbers for the characters mentioned:

Android 18: 300,000,000

Android 16: 500,000,000

Semi Perfect Cell: 900,000,000

ASSJ Vegeta - 1,200,000,000

50% SSJ Goku (Cell Games) / SSJ Goten - 1,500,000,000

SSJ Future Trunks (Cell Games) / SSJ Future Trunks - 1,700,000,000

Cell Jr/Piccolo (Buu Arc) - 2,000,000,000

I also think Gohan was rusty at that point, not being able to fight well. I also think Gohan was holding back against his brother. The kids are indeed powerful though, and should not be underestimated (Super seems to be doing that a lot). They are not weaker than Android 18, and they are certainly not Frieza tier.

[dragon boss z]

The kids are stated to be way stronger than Android 18

This is never stated. At best you can say it is implied.

[Smilodon]

Of course they aren't...

Dabura defeated Piccolo and Kibito with easy. Piccolo was the dominant one when Boo absorbed them;
Dabura was able to stand a fight against fat boo, and Gotenks (before training) wasn't;
Dabura, fighting pratically alone, killed Future Kaioshin and he almost defeated Future Trunks...
Dabura was in same level against Gohan...Gohan was much stronger than Goten or Trunks (in that training with Goten he wasn't at his full power)...
Vegeta knocked out Trunks SSJ and Goten SSJ with a single punch...I don't think he could do this against Dabura...

Dabura against Trunks or Goten now in Super, we can't be sure because we don't have any prof. But I still think that Dabura is way stronger than the kids.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

Gohan was Rusty but rapidly became unrusty. That panel of him fighting Goten is probably him only half way back to form.

I doubt tbh. Gohan was still fighting pretty sloopy when facing Dabura.

He's also not going to be making life of death effort against his 7 year old brother.

True, forgot about that. On hand to hand combat Goten still gave more trouble than Dabura, though.

Dabra was said to be about on par with Perfect Cell. You can claim this meant initial perfect cell, but either way Goku later revises this estimate upwards. So he's gotta be in the ball park of Super Perfect Cell.

SPC was right on Kid Gohan's tail, who's labeled as far, far stronger than Teen Gohan, who's stronger than Dabura. Vegeta was confident on killing Dabura easily as well, and he still weaker than Kid Gohan and perhaps SPC at this point.

and maybe even below 18 pre.

Woah, i have to stop you right here. With a suppressed blast from them 18 went from completely confident on taking them to heavily worried about her safety, going as far as throwing a Kienzan on them instead of fighting them directly.

Super validated this as far back as the U6 Arc where even Vegeta wanted Piccolo over the "stronger-than-Goten" Trunks.

Doesn't that only mean FnF Piccolo > SSJ Trunks? It can be the whole experience thing as well, considering that's the reason the humans were chosed over the kids for the ToP.

The kids are strong for their age and strong enough to be fusion fodder.

When you take SSJ2 and 3 into the mix, yeah, the Kids were fodder. I think Mr Toriyama still wanted to group all the SSJs together on the Buu Arc, though.

Dabra wrecks Goten. Even if they were close in power we'd see a Base Goku vs SS2 Cauli situation where Dabras experience wrecks Goten.

True. Even Goten and Trunks fighting together would likely fall to something like Dabura's spit or his sword.

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

[Speedster]

Gohan against Dabra, arguably used SSJ2 or at least a form of Super Saiyan “SSJ1.85” that was closer to SSJ2 than SSJ1 despite the lack of sparks in its aura. However, even in the tournament where Gohan did turn SSJ2 he lacked the added boost he had when he fought against Cell. He was also weaker compared to his teen-self due to lack of training though he did regain some of his lost power after training with Goten for a month.

I think it is safe to say that the following ranking applies (power gaps between tiers may be large or not – it is only the order that matters):
1. SSJ2 Goku (Buu arc) / SSJ2 Majin Vegeta
2. SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu arc, pre-Majin boost)
3. (hypothetical) Uninjured, rage-boosted, super-motivated, full-power SSJ2 teen Gohan (Cell arc)
4. Injured, rage-boosted, super-motivated SSJ2 teen-Gohan / Initial SSJ2 teen Gohan (Cell arc)/Super Perfect Cell (Cell arc)
5. SSJ2 Gohan (25th TB saga)/Injured, unmotivated, non-rage-boosted SSJ2 teen Gohan (Cell arc)
6. “SSJ1.85” Gohan versus Dabra (Buu arc)/Perfect Cell
7. FPSSJ1 teen Gohan (Cell Arc) / FPSSJ1 Goku (Cell arc)
8. FPSSJ1 Gohan (25th TB)
9. Rusty FPSSJ1 Gohan (great Saiyaman saga, start of Gohan’s training for the 25th TB)
10. FPSSJ1 Goten/Trunks (25th TB)

Dabra is anywhere between tier 6 and 4, or even above tier 4 but below tier 3. The boys are much lower than Dabra, at tier 10. Still it is implied that the SSJ kids are above #18. In base form the kids are below Buu-arc Piccolo, thus Piccolo is dominant in fusion when they were all absorbed by Super Buu as "Buuccolo". It is not known for sure whether Piccolo is above the SSJ kids but personally I subscribe to the school of thought that says that (as per Dabra's remarks) the adult base Saiyans are above Piccolo in the Buu arc and that SSJ is not a fixed multiplier but a boost.

[dragon boss z]

It is not known for sure whether Piccolo is above the SSJ kids but personally I subscribe to the school of thought that says that (as per Dabra's remarks) the adult base Saiyans are above Piccolo in the Buu arc and that SSJ is not a fixed multiplier but a boost.

This would only make sense if Piccolo got weaker than Frieza as it seems to be a Toriyama idea that base Goku is below Frieza. Though tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they let Piccolo drop below Frieza by how bad he has been treated since the Cell arc was over. He got spat on and did nothing in the buu arc, got stomped by Beerus in the Bog arc and movie, had trouble with a Zarbon/Dadoria level warrior in RoF, got stomped by a warrior who used to be Zarbon/Dadoria level 4 months ago and lost to a extremely rusty ssj Gohan. But ignoring the inconsistencies of Super I would say Piccolo is still quite a bit above the base saiyans and above ssj Goten and Trunks.

[Meshack]

Goten and Trunks alone could not defeat Darbura. Darbura was on the level of Cell in his Developed Form. Unless Goten or Trunks have Super Saiyan 2, they cannot defeat Darbura, but even then, it would be hard to tell.

Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks if they’re in their normal forms because Boo’s absorption took over Piccolo’s attire over Trunks’s. However, when they transform into Super Saiyan they are still probably below Piccolo. Piccolo was able to rival against No. 17, who was stronger than No. 18 at the time. No. 18 was able to hold her own against Goten and Trunks and probably would have won against them if the battle was an endurance battle.

Piccolo could have easily defeated Freeza, and Gokuh said in Yo! The Return of Son Gokuh and Friends!! that Freeza would be a good opponent or something similar of the sort since Abo and Cado were around Freeza’s battle power. Obviously, Trunks and Goten were stronger than Abo and Cado but their battle powers were potentially lower than Freeza’s full power. I don’t see Trunks and Goten alone bejng stronger than Androids No. 19 and 20 or those were the only two androids they were stronger than. No. 16, No. 17, No. 18, and Cell would be more powerful than Trunks and Goten, even at this point in the series. They don’t train or anything and Daizenshuu says they didn’t train at all during the 10-year gap. It seems that Super is continuing to stick with this, not having Trunks and Goten participate in anything.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

It wasn't. If anything it's more plausible she was worried about herself, considering she throwed a Kienzan at them instead of speed blitzing and one shoting them.

And is YSG! even canon? I remember Tarble being mentioned in BoGs but not in Super. Toei always nerfs the hell out of the kids as well, they were pushing Base Gohan > SSJ Kids in M10, ffs.

I subscribe to the school of thought that says that (as per Dabra's remarks) the adult base Saiyans are above Piccolo in the Buu arc and that SSJ is not a fixed multiplier but a boost.

Good to see i'm not the only one. Honestly i'm kind of going back and forth with Base > Kamiccolo. You use lower multipliers for the Adult SSJs, don't you? How low is your multiplier for them?
And how you explain Vegeta saying if nobody transforms the conditions are the same, implying any of the Saiyans cannot stomp each other in equal forms, before he knew the kids would have a tournament of their own? Personally when i go with Base > Kamiccolo i consider his Rosat got retconed and he's on 17 tier again, though it's too much of a strech.

This would only make sense if Piccolo got weaker than Frieza as it seems to be a Toriyama idea that base Goku is below Frieza. Though tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they let Piccolo drop below Frieza by how bad he has been treated since the Cell arc was over. He got spat on and did nothing in the buu arc, got stomped by Beerus in the Bog arc and movie, had trouble with a Zarbon/Dadoria level warrior in RoF, got stomped by a warrior who used to be Zarbon/Dadoria level 4 months ago and lost to a extremely rusty ssj Gohan. But ignoring the inconsistencies of Super I would say Piccolo is still quite a bit above the base saiyans and above ssj Goten and Trunks.

Or he's not considering Beerus quote for whatever reason. Super does contradict itself anyway when Tagoma calls Gohan the most dangerous Z Fighter before knowing he can transform, and a even stronger Gohan is later implied to be equal with Piccolo during their spar but still weaker than CG Gohan by Future Trunks.

Goten and Trunks alone could not defeat Darbura. Darbura was on the level of Cell in his Developed Form. Unless Goten or Trunks have Super Saiyan 2, they cannot defeat Darbura, but even then, it would be hard to tell.

Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks if they’re in their normal forms because Boo’s absorption took over Piccolo’s attire over Trunks’s. However, when they transform into Super Saiyan they are still probably below Piccolo. Piccolo was able to rival against No. 17, who was stronger than No. 18 at the time. No. 18 was able to hold her own against Goten and Trunks and probably would have won against them if the battle was an endurance battle.

Piccolo could have easily defeated Freeza, and Gokuh said in Yo! The Return of Son Gokuh and Friends!! that Freeza would be a good opponent or something similar of the sort since Abo and Cado were around Freeza’s battle power. Obviously, Trunks and Goten were stronger than Abo and Cado but their battle powers were potentially lower than Freeza’s full power. I don’t see Trunks and Goten alone bejng stronger than Androids No. 19 and 20 or those were the only two androids they were stronger than. No. 16, No. 17, No. 18, and Cell would be more powerful than Trunks and Goten, even at this point in the series. They don’t train or anything and Daizenshuu says they didn’t train at all during the 10-year gap. It seems that Super is continuing to stick with this, not having Trunks and Goten participate in anything.

18 was holding her own against the base kids, though. After the kids went SSJ they only fired a suppressed blast that scared her. I can see the kids being weaker than Kamiccolo, but weaker than 18 sounds too much of a scretch.

In YSG! and Super they do see to be really weak though. Tagoma fastly recovering that headbutt from Gotenks but getting two shoted by SSJ Gohan heavily implies CG SSJ Gohan > SSJ Gotenks if we don't consider it gag. But Toei loves to nerf the kids, considering in M10 Base Gohan was putting a better fight against Broly than the SSJ Kids together, and they had to fuse to defeat the Nazis in M12, when Kid Goku wrecked havoc trough the RRA while being infinitely weaker.
Also, EoZ Goku says Goten keeps slacking on his training, implying he did train on the 10 year timeskip despite constantly slacking off.

[Meshack]

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

It wasn't. If anything it's more plausible she was worried about herself, considering she throwed a Kienzan at them instead of speed blitzing and one shoting them.

And is YSG! even canon? I remember Tarble being mentioned in BoGs but not in Super. Toei always nerfs the hell out of the kids as well, they were pushing Base Gohan > SSJ Kids in M10, ffs.

I subscribe to the school of thought that says that (as per Dabra's remarks) the adult base Saiyans are above Piccolo in the Buu arc and that SSJ is not a fixed multiplier but a boost.

Good to see i'm not the only one. Honestly i'm kind of going back and forth with Base > Kamiccolo. You use lower multipliers for the Adult SSJs, don't you? How low is your multiplier for them?
And how you explain Vegeta saying if nobody transforms the conditions are the same, implying any of the Saiyans cannot stomp each other in equal forms, before he knew the kids would have a tournament of their own? Personally when i go with Base > Kamiccolo i consider his Rosat got retconed and he's on 17 tier again, though it's too much of a strech.

This would only make sense if Piccolo got weaker than Frieza as it seems to be a Toriyama idea that base Goku is below Frieza. Though tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they let Piccolo drop below Frieza by how bad he has been treated since the Cell arc was over. He got spat on and did nothing in the buu arc, got stomped by Beerus in the Bog arc and movie, had trouble with a Zarbon/Dadoria level warrior in RoF, got stomped by a warrior who used to be Zarbon/Dadoria level 4 months ago and lost to a extremely rusty ssj Gohan. But ignoring the inconsistencies of Super I would say Piccolo is still quite a bit above the base saiyans and above ssj Goten and Trunks.

Or he's not considering Beerus quote for whatever reason. Super does contradict itself anyway when Tagoma calls Gohan the most dangerous Z Fighter before knowing he can transform, and a even stronger Gohan is later implied to be equal with Piccolo during their spar but still weaker than CG Gohan by Future Trunks.

Goten and Trunks alone could not defeat Darbura. Darbura was on the level of Cell in his Developed Form. Unless Goten or Trunks have Super Saiyan 2, they cannot defeat Darbura, but even then, it would be hard to tell.

Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks if they’re in their normal forms because Boo’s absorption took over Piccolo’s attire over Trunks’s. However, when they transform into Super Saiyan they are still probably below Piccolo. Piccolo was able to rival against No. 17, who was stronger than No. 18 at the time. No. 18 was able to hold her own against Goten and Trunks and probably would have won against them if the battle was an endurance battle.

Piccolo could have easily defeated Freeza, and Gokuh said in Yo! The Return of Son Gokuh and Friends!! that Freeza would be a good opponent or something similar of the sort since Abo and Cado were around Freeza’s battle power. Obviously, Trunks and Goten were stronger than Abo and Cado but their battle powers were potentially lower than Freeza’s full power. I don’t see Trunks and Goten alone bejng stronger than Androids No. 19 and 20 or those were the only two androids they were stronger than. No. 16, No. 17, No. 18, and Cell would be more powerful than Trunks and Goten, even at this point in the series. They don’t train or anything and Daizenshuu says they didn’t train at all during the 10-year gap. It seems that Super is continuing to stick with this, not having Trunks and Goten participate in anything.

18 was holding her own against the base kids, though. After the kids went SSJ they only fired a suppressed blast that scared her. I can see the kids being weaker than Kamiccolo, but weaker than 18 sounds too much of a scretch.

In YSG! and Super they do see to be really weak though. Tagoma fastly recovering that headbutt from Gotenks but getting two shoted by SSJ Gohan heavily implies CG SSJ Gohan > SSJ Gotenks if we don't consider it gag. But Toei loves to nerf the kids, considering in M10 Base Gohan was putting a better fight against Broly than the SSJ Kids together, and they had to fuse to defeat the Nazis in M12, when Kid Goku wrecked havoc trough the RRA while being infinitely weaker.
Also, EoZ Goku says Goten keeps slacking on his training, implying he did train on the 10 year timeskip despite constantly slacking off.

No. 18 was only slightly weaker than No. 17. Goten and Trunks can’t be much stronger than No. 18. The only time we know that Goten trained with Gohan was when he forst transformed. Trunks didn’t seem too comfortable in 150 times gravity, meaning he didn’t train with Vegeta too often, and had to transform to move around easily.

About his training, Daizenshuu 2 says the peace threw off his training and he hasn’t gotten much stronger. I thought it said he didn’t train but I was wrong.

[dragon boss z]

This would only make sense if Piccolo got weaker than Frieza as it seems to be a Toriyama idea that base Goku is below Frieza. Though tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they let Piccolo drop below Frieza by how bad he has been treated since the Cell arc was over. He got spat on and did nothing in the buu arc, got stomped by Beerus in the Bog arc and movie, had trouble with a Zarbon/Dadoria level warrior in RoF, got stomped by a warrior who used to be Zarbon/Dadoria level 4 months ago and lost to a extremely rusty ssj Gohan. But ignoring the inconsistencies of Super I would say Piccolo is still quite a bit above the base saiyans and above ssj Goten and Trunks.

Or he's not considering Beerus quote for whatever reason. Super does contradict itself anyway when Tagoma calls Gohan the most dangerous Z Fighter before knowing he can transform, and a even stronger Gohan is later implied to be equal with Piccolo during their spar but still weaker than CG Gohan by Future Trunks.

Ya I assume he was ignoring the Beerus quite, but really the only thing that even contradicts this is that Vegeta said he would win the tournament in base, though that's what Vegeta would say in character anyways. A direct character power comparison is definitely more reliable. And worse case scenario it's a retcon, which Super seems to love to do anyways.

As for Tagoma calling Gohan the most dangerous Z fighter, I'm pretty sure the writers of the RoF arc forgot how strong Piccolo was, and all of the characters tbh. In both the movie and the show there is so many examples that prove this.

-Roshi can defeat multiple Frieza soldiers at once (which means the Frieza soldiers are weak)
-Over 20 Frieza soldiers were eaten by a big fish and they gasped when Frieza city busted (more proof they are weak)
-Krillin had trouble with them in the movie (meaning he is also weak)
-In Super when Krillin was being surrounded by Frieza soldiers Piccolo and Gohan couldn't get past the weak Frieza soldiers to help them
-Gohan flat out said he was so weak he didn't even know if he could take all of Frieza's men, and this was before he saw Shisami or Tagoma in action
-Shisami was stated to be Zarbon/Dadoria level with no mentioned power up, in the movie he held off Piccolo and made Gohan go ssj, and in Super he punched through Gohan's ki blasts
-Tagoma stomped Piccolo and beat base Gohan, and the same attack he used to take out Piccolo later took out skinny Roshi and Krillin without seriously hurting them, it didn't even damage them more than Piccolo.
-First form Frieza after a few months of training was above everyone there
-In the movie Frieza said he would achieve a power level of 1.3 million (lets hope the writers meant his first form but it is still ridiculously low)
-Frieza didn't mention any of them being ssj tier until Gohan went ssj
-Nobody ever mentions that Togoma is stronger than Frieza, only that he is stronger than the Ginyu force and as strong as Gohan at his best, assuming his base form since he was stomped by ssj, and they made sure to mention Frieza was stronger than before, so if Tagoma was too you think they would mention that.

Imo this comes down to the writers either not doing their research or not caring. If I had to make an educated guess this is how it happened. The writers heard Frieza's power level was 530,000 from the F song, so they thought they didn't have to go back and double check his power level. They had Piccolo have trouble with Shisami because they thought it would bring tension but it was really just dumb. And then in Super they thought it was OK to have Piccolo lose to Tagoma because he had trouble with Shisami in the movie so whoever wrote that episode probably thought that since Tagoma>Shismai he is > Piccolo as well without actually going back to check the anime or manga.
There is the possibility that the writers thought everyone just grew exponentially and it's ok for Tagoma to become Cell level, but I don't think this is the case because of the 1.3 million line. It means they did try and think how strong they would become and the writers actually thought a couple times jump would be enough, considering that line from the movie was not delivered as if it was a joke and it was taken out in Super, meaning they must have went back and realized it was too low.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goten and Trunks can’t be much stronger than No. 18.

Why? They showed plenty of feats showing they would be a considerable deal back in the Cell Arc.

Ya I assume he was ignoring the Beerus quite, but really the only thing that even contradicts this is that Vegeta said he would win the tournament in base, though that's what Vegeta would say in character anyways. A direct character power comparison is definitely more reliable. And worse case scenario it's a retcon, which Super seems to love to do anyways.

Honestly there is more than that, like Trunks putting up a fight against 18 despite being on Goten's shoulders wearing a clown suit and Kaioshin being completely blown away by the Base Saiyans. I don't think there is any reason to think Vegeta was only the good and old ego, considering he was never proven wrong here.
And Beerus' statement can be taken in a few different ways to actually avoid a contradiction here. Goku being suppressed, Beerus taunting Goku, etc.

As for Tagoma calling Gohan the most dangerous Z fighter, I'm pretty sure the writers of the RoF arc forgot how strong Piccolo was, and all of the characters tbh. In both the movie and the show there is so many examples that prove this.

-Roshi can defeat multiple Frieza soldiers at once (which means the Frieza soldiers are weak)
-Over 20 Frieza soldiers were eaten by a big fish and they gasped when Frieza city busted (more proof they are weak)
-Krillin had trouble with them in the movie (meaning he is also weak)
-In Super when Krillin was being surrounded by Frieza soldiers Piccolo and Gohan couldn't get past the weak Frieza soldiers to help them
-Gohan flat out said he was so weak he didn't even know if he could take all of Frieza's men, and this was before he saw Shisami or Tagoma in action
-Shisami was stated to be Zarbon/Dadoria level with no mentioned power up, in the movie he held off Piccolo and made Gohan go ssj, and in Super he punched through Gohan's ki blasts
-Tagoma stomped Piccolo and beat base Gohan, and the same attack he used to take out Piccolo later took out skinny Roshi and Krillin without seriously hurting them, it didn't even damage them more than Piccolo.
-First form Frieza after a few months of training was above everyone there
-In the movie Frieza said he would achieve a power level of 1.3 million (lets hope the writers meant his first form but it is still ridiculously low)
-Frieza didn't mention any of them being ssj tier until Gohan went ssj
-Nobody ever mentions that Togoma is stronger than Frieza, only that he is stronger than the Ginyu force and as strong as Gohan at his best, assuming his base form since he was stomped by ssj, and they made sure to mention Frieza was stronger than before, so if Tagoma was too you think they would mention that.

Imo this comes down to the writers either not doing their research or not caring. If I had to make an educated guess this is how it happened. The writers heard Frieza's power level was 530,000 from the F song, so they thought they didn't have to go back and double check his power level. They had Piccolo have trouble with Shisami because they thought it would bring tension but it was really just dumb. And then in Super they thought it was OK to have Piccolo lose to Tagoma because he had trouble with Shisami in the movie so whoever wrote that episode probably thought that since Tagoma>Shismai he is > Piccolo as well without actually going back to check the anime or manga.
There is the possibility that the writers thought everyone just grew exponentially and it's ok for Tagoma to become Cell level, but I don't think this is the case because of the 1.3 million line. It means they did try and think how strong they would become and the writers actually thought a couple times jump would be enough, considering that line from the movie was not delivered as if it was a joke and it was taken out in Super, meaning they must have went back and realized it was too low.

I don't think the movie really comes to the matter here,considering the anime is the most recent verson. People barely use Battle of Gods movie while discussing Super, so why bring FnF Movie while discussing Super?
I don't see any power scaling inconsistence on those examples. They are more like a plot device that has already been present on Dragon Ball Z. Freeza and Tagoma's power ups are a similiar situation to Goku's Zenkai from below Ginyu to on pair with Final Form Freeza, and Roshi and Kuririn not dying from an attack that knocked Piccolo is like an enraged 50% Freeza failing to kill an weakened Base Goku. The implications of Gohan being stronger than Piccolo aren't from any plot device, but from a comparison between Gohan and the rest of the Z Fighters. It's actually possible Piccolo got nerfed to Zarbon levels, but i found this very, very unlikely.

[dragon boss z]

Honestly there is more than that, like Trunks putting up a fight against 18 despite being on Goten's shoulders wearing a clown suit and Kaioshin being completely blown away by the Base Saiyans. I don't think there is any reason to think Vegeta was only the good and old ego, considering he was never proven wrong here.

Piccolo was shown to be closer to ssj level than base level in the Cell games, and since Goku and Vegeta didn't even surpass ssj2 Cell games Gohan in their ssj form, that should beam they only be about 2x Cell games Goku, and for Vegeta that would of only been after the majin boost. before the majin boost he may of not of even been above cell games Gohan, or at least not by much. And 18 thought the kids were humans in base, and if you go by the manga, she had no trouble with them. And the Supreme kai just seemed clueless. He thought Puipui would be a problem, who thought 10x gravity was a lot.

And Beerus' statement can be taken in a few different ways to actually avoid a contradiction here. Goku being suppressed, Beerus taunting Goku, etc.

It seems to be there just to say base Goku is weaker than Frieza. In Super they even added the line ssj Goku wasn't much above Frieza. You could try to look into it deeper, but it seems to just be there for a power reference.

I don't think the movie really comes to the matter here,considering the anime is the most recent verson.

They are both pretty much on the same level of canocity. And the differences are just small Toei differences they decided to add. Super could of had similar differences if they just decided to assign different writers to different episodes. The only things I would consider official canon to the story are major plot points, for example Frieza going Golden, being stronger than Goku then getting weaker and Goku getting hit by a ray gun and losing. All the little details of the fight are just animator decisions.

People barely use Battle of Gods movie while discussing Super, so why bring FnF Movie while discussing Super?

We weren't really discussing Super, just dragon ball in general. Super really isn't anymore canon than the movies. It's like the difference between the anime and manga. And I was mainly using the movie to show the mind set of the writers. If they think that a big fish could eat the Frieza soldiers or Piccolo having problems with a Zarbon level opponent makes sense in the movie, there is no reason they wouldn't think the same in Super.

I don't see any power scaling inconsistence on those examples. They are more like a plot device that has already been present on Dragon Ball Z. Freeza and Tagoma's power ups are a similiar situation to Goku's Zenkai from below Ginyu to on pair with Final Form Freeza, and Roshi and Kuririn not dying from an attack that knocked Piccolo is like an enraged 50% Freeza failing to kill an weakened Base Goku. The implications of Gohan being stronger than Piccolo aren't from any plot device, but from a comparison between Gohan and the rest of the Z Fighters. It's actually possible Piccolo got nerfed to Zarbon levels, but i found this very, very unlikely.

Not really inconsistencies, more like major nerfs that are illogical.

[Darkprince410]

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

If it was only about the fight getting out of hand that worried her, why would she use something that'd kill them in order to disqualify them? Her using a deadly technique speaks of desperation and an inability to handle them in any other fashion.

[dragon boss z]

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

If it was only about the fight getting out of hand that worried her, why would she use something that'd kill them in order to disqualify them? Her using a deadly technique speaks of desperation and an inability to handle them in any other fashion.

She wouldn't risk killing them just to win some prize money... People really need to stop taking a plot related scene out of context. It wasn't meant to show they were above 18 the attack was there to separate them in a funny manor. Whether or not they are actually stronger than her doesn't change that.

[Meshack]

Goten and Trunks can’t be much stronger than No. 18.

Why? They showed plenty of feats showing they would be a considerable deal back in the Cell Arc.

Ya I assume he was ignoring the Beerus quite, but really the only thing that even contradicts this is that Vegeta said he would win the tournament in base, though that's what Vegeta would say in character anyways. A direct character power comparison is definitely more reliable. And worse case scenario it's a retcon, which Super seems to love to do anyways.

Honestly there is more than that, like Trunks putting up a fight against 18 despite being on Goten's shoulders wearing a clown suit and Kaioshin being completely blown away by the Base Saiyans. I don't think there is any reason to think Vegeta was only the good and old ego, considering he was never proven wrong here.
And Beerus' statement can be taken in a few different ways to actually avoid a contradiction here. Goku being suppressed, Beerus taunting Goku, etc.

As for Tagoma calling Gohan the most dangerous Z fighter, I'm pretty sure the writers of the RoF arc forgot how strong Piccolo was, and all of the characters tbh. In both the movie and the show there is so many examples that prove this.

-Roshi can defeat multiple Frieza soldiers at once (which means the Frieza soldiers are weak)
-Over 20 Frieza soldiers were eaten by a big fish and they gasped when Frieza city busted (more proof they are weak)
-Krillin had trouble with them in the movie (meaning he is also weak)
-In Super when Krillin was being surrounded by Frieza soldiers Piccolo and Gohan couldn't get past the weak Frieza soldiers to help them
-Gohan flat out said he was so weak he didn't even know if he could take all of Frieza's men, and this was before he saw Shisami or Tagoma in action
-Shisami was stated to be Zarbon/Dadoria level with no mentioned power up, in the movie he held off Piccolo and made Gohan go ssj, and in Super he punched through Gohan's ki blasts
-Tagoma stomped Piccolo and beat base Gohan, and the same attack he used to take out Piccolo later took out skinny Roshi and Krillin without seriously hurting them, it didn't even damage them more than Piccolo.
-First form Frieza after a few months of training was above everyone there
-In the movie Frieza said he would achieve a power level of 1.3 million (lets hope the writers meant his first form but it is still ridiculously low)
-Frieza didn't mention any of them being ssj tier until Gohan went ssj
-Nobody ever mentions that Togoma is stronger than Frieza, only that he is stronger than the Ginyu force and as strong as Gohan at his best, assuming his base form since he was stomped by ssj, and they made sure to mention Frieza was stronger than before, so if Tagoma was too you think they would mention that.

Imo this comes down to the writers either not doing their research or not caring. If I had to make an educated guess this is how it happened. The writers heard Frieza's power level was 530,000 from the F song, so they thought they didn't have to go back and double check his power level. They had Piccolo have trouble with Shisami because they thought it would bring tension but it was really just dumb. And then in Super they thought it was OK to have Piccolo lose to Tagoma because he had trouble with Shisami in the movie so whoever wrote that episode probably thought that since Tagoma>Shismai he is > Piccolo as well without actually going back to check the anime or manga.
There is the possibility that the writers thought everyone just grew exponentially and it's ok for Tagoma to become Cell level, but I don't think this is the case because of the 1.3 million line. It means they did try and think how strong they would become and the writers actually thought a couple times jump would be enough, considering that line from the movie was not delivered as if it was a joke and it was taken out in Super, meaning they must have went back and realized it was too low.

I don't think the movie really comes to the matter here,considering the anime is the most recent verson. People barely use Battle of Gods movie while discussing Super, so why bring FnF Movie while discussing Super?
I don't see any power scaling inconsistence on those examples. They are more like a plot device that has already been present on Dragon Ball Z. Freeza and Tagoma's power ups are a similiar situation to Goku's Zenkai from below Ginyu to on pair with Final Form Freeza, and Roshi and Kuririn not dying from an attack that knocked Piccolo is like an enraged 50% Freeza failing to kill an weakened Base Goku. The implications of Gohan being stronger than Piccolo aren't from any plot device, but from a comparison between Gohan and the rest of the Z Fighters. It's actually possible Piccolo got nerfed to Zarbon levels, but i found this very, very unlikely.

Piccolo when he merged with Kami-sama made him stronger than a Super Saiyan. Piccolo was able to combat No. 17 who was slightly stronger than No. 18. Goten and Trunks couldn’t do much against No. 18 and since she has unlimited energy, she would have easily won against them combined. I’m pretty sure during the Boo Arc, No. 18 did not get much stronger, this keeping her below Developed Cell

[Darkprince410]

She wouldn't risk killing them just to win some prize money... People really need to stop taking a plot related scene out of context. It wasn't meant to show they were above 18 the attack was there to separate them in a funny manor. Whether or not they are actually stronger than her doesn't change that.

You see it that way, but I see it in another. If she were stronger than the boys, much less by the amount some are suggesting, why not just charge them quickly and knock them out? Why is a held back blast from Trunks something that'll shake her up (and not just from it's destructive power, but also the speed of it, which says it's more her own safety she's concerned with) if she wouldn't even so much as bat an eye when it came to his future counterpart, stronger than Freeza, throwing out a full-power blast?

Piccolo when he merged with Kami-sama made him stronger than a Super Saiyan. Piccolo was able to combat No. 17 who was slightly stronger than No. 18. Goten and Trunks couldn’t do much against No. 18 and since she has unlimited energy, she would have easily won against them combined. I’m pretty sure during the Boo Arc, No. 18 did not get much stronger, this keeping her below Developed Cell

They only showed difficulty in fighting against her while in their base forms. After transforming, there was no sign of them having any difficulty as far as her strength was concerned, and had to tone down their attacks for her safety.

[miguelnuva1]

1. Piccolo was stronger than base Gohan and Trunks not ask kids.

2. Goku and Vegeta both thought each other could beat Dabura with just ssj1, later when they fight Goku was shocked Vegeta had ssj2 and Vegeta needed to confirm Goku was stronger than Kid Gohan.

3. Goku said Dabura was tougher than he thought not stronger.