Are the Kids stronger than Dabura?

[Lionel]

I feel inclined to say "no" on the original question. Dabura was on the receiving end of attacks from SSJ2 Trunks but he wasn't out of commission. If you look at Cell's toleration for strikes from SSJ2 Gohan, you'll see how Dabura appears to be enduring them with better composure. Goten and Trunks would be fairly close to an unpracticed teen SSJ Gohan at best. Is it disparate? Yes, but I don't know how else you can reconcile Dabura fighting a supposedly SSJ Gohan while holding his ground against SSJ2 Trunks in the future to greater effect than Cell did when he was first confronted by the transformation.

[theherodjl]

Dabura defeated Piccolo and Kibito with easy. Piccolo was the dominant one when Boo absorbed them;
Dabura was able to stand a fight against fat boo, and Gotenks (before training) wasn't;

That's because the kids reverted to base after their fusion ended, we even see them in base while in Majin Boo's head pods. Piccolo is bound to be stronger than Base Trunks & Goten but their SSJ forms are another story.
Dabura received like 2 strikes and was floored for several minutes then agonizingly transformed into a cookie, Gotenks was at least able to survive an encounter with Boo and escape. That's not to say that Gotenks is necessarily stronger than Dabura but neither put up any real fight against him, Boo toyed with them both.

[Smilodon]

Dabura defeated Piccolo and Kibito with easy. Piccolo was the dominant one when Boo absorbed them;
Dabura was able to stand a fight against fat boo, and Gotenks (before training) wasn't;

That's because the kids reverted to base after their fusion ended, we even see them in base while in Majin Boo's head pods. Piccolo is bound to be stronger than Base Trunks & Goten but their SSJ forms are another story.
Dabura received like 2 strikes and was floored for several minutes then agonizingly transformed into a cookie, Gotenks was at least able to survive an encounter with Boo and escape. That's not to say that Gotenks is necessarily stronger than Dabura but neither put up any real fight against him, Boo toyed with them both.

In Cell saga, Piccolo is way stronger than SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks...He was strong enough to fight against A17 in Cell saga...A17 was much stronger than SSJ Vegeta before rosat. Do you really think Goten and Trunks is stronger than that Vegeta? And Piccolo got stronger 7 years later.

My comparison with gotenks was to show that Dabura +- = Gotenks before training...And Gotenks before training is stronger than SSJ Trunks or Goten for sure.

[theherodjl]

In Cell saga, Piccolo is way stronger than SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks...He was strong enough to fight against A17 in Cell saga...A17 was much stronger than SSJ Vegeta before rosat. Do you really think Goten and Trunks is stronger than that Vegeta? And Piccolo got stronger 7 years later.

My comparison with gotenks was to show that Dabura +- = Gotenks before training...And Gotenks before training is stronger than SSJ Trunks or Goten for sure.

Yes I do think Goten & Trunks are stronger than Cell Games Vegeta and Boo Arc Piccolo.
The Daizenshuu Vol 2 states that Goten is equal in raw power to Gohan prior to the 25th Tenkaichi as well as the fact that Trunks is somewhat superior to this level, add in the fact that they trained in the ROSAT for a week and you have two child Saiyans just about on par with Cell Games Gohan. It's unlikely that Piccolo was able to close this gap from his solitary training at Kami's palace, if he even trained that is. One scene in anime filler even has SSJ Goten blasting out of Piccolo's grip, if the weaker of the duo can do that then Piccolo is not all as cracked up to be as he is claimed.

[dragonball0900]

In Cell saga, Piccolo is way stronger than SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks...He was strong enough to fight against A17 in Cell saga...A17 was much stronger than SSJ Vegeta before rosat. Do you really think Goten and Trunks is stronger than that Vegeta? And Piccolo got stronger 7 years later.

What's the problem with them being stronger than Vegeta? They were said that they were stronger than Android 18, and manage to do feats against Gohan and Vegeta in training. Do you really think someone around Android 16 level would manage to punch Vegeta like that? Just because they are kids it doesn't mean they can't be stronger than Android arc Vegeta.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

It was pretty clear she was worried about the fight getting out of hand, not her safety. Neither of the children are stronger than 18. Hell the children were said to barely be around namak Frieza level during the "Yo son Goku returns special", who 18 is clearly stronger than.

If it was only about the fight getting out of hand that worried her, why would she use something that'd kill them in order to disqualify them? Her using a deadly technique speaks of desperation and an inability to handle them in any other fashion.

She wouldn't risk killing them just to win some prize money... People really need to stop taking a plot related scene out of context. It wasn't meant to show they were above 18 the attack was there to separate them in a funny manor. Whether or not they are actually stronger than her doesn't change that.

Dragon boss z explained it pretty well

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In Cell saga, Piccolo is way stronger than SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks...He was strong enough to fight against A17 in Cell saga...A17 was much stronger than SSJ Vegeta before rosat. Do you really think Goten and Trunks is stronger than that Vegeta? And Piccolo got stronger 7 years later.

Why wouldn't they be stronger than Vegeta? It's very any Pre Rosat SSJ could do any of the feats the Kids performed.

My comparison with gotenks was to show that Dabura +- = Gotenks before training...And Gotenks before training is stronger than SSJ Trunks or Goten for sure.

Dabura got two shoted by a Fat Buu who Goku and Vegeta could kill by teaming up, Gotenks at least survived and could fly to the lookout without attracting Buu after fighting the Fat Buu who could fight in equal footing with SSJ3 Goku.

She wouldn't risk killing them just to win some prize money... People really need to stop taking a plot related scene out of context. It wasn't meant to show they were above 18 the attack was there to separate them in a funny manor. Whether or not they are actually stronger than her doesn't change that.

Taking the scene in the context, it's clear the kids are inferior to 18. She was blown away by a blast and decided she needed to end the fight in a instant. It doesn't make sense for her to be worried about her or the public's safety but throw a dangerous attack at them. And it's not because the scene was supposed to be funny that we have to throw logic away.

[dragon boss z]

Taking the scene in the context, it's clear the kids are inferior to 18. She was blown away by a blast and decided she needed to end the fight in a instant. It doesn't make sense for her to be worried about her or the public's safety but throw a dangerous attack at them. And it's not because the scene was supposed to be funny that we have to throw logic away.

You don't have to throw away logic, just say that the ki blast was powered down so it wouldn't kill them if it hit them. If you really think it is logical that she would risk cutting their heads off just to win the tournament I don't know what to say. She must of known she had it control. And in Super they just make the kids look even weaker. The kids can be anywhere from suppressed final form Frieza all the way to semi perfect Cell. There is really no definitive proof. However there is no way they can beat Dabura, who even Gohan might of lost to.

[Darkprince410]

Taking the scene in the context, it's clear the kids are inferior to 18. She was blown away by a blast and decided she needed to end the fight in a instant. It doesn't make sense for her to be worried about her or the public's safety but throw a dangerous attack at them. And it's not because the scene was supposed to be funny that we have to throw logic away.

You don't have to throw away logic, just say that the ki blast was powered down so it wouldn't kill them if it hit them. If you really think it is logical that she would risk cutting their heads off just to win the tournament I don't know what to say. She must of known she had it control. And in Super they just make the kids look even weaker. The kids can be anywhere from suppressed final form Frieza all the way to semi perfect Cell. There is really no definitive proof. However there is no way they can beat Dabura, who even Gohan might of lost to.

If there was any indication that the ki-enzan could be powered down so it wouldn't slice them open if it hit them, it'd be one thing. However, we've never seen a single instance of that at all or even a suggestion that it could, so if it takes introducing a capability that we've seen no evidence of it having whatsoever in order for it to work, it just seems extremely implausible.

[TheGodfather93]

Personally, I think the kids are a bit overrated. I would place them at around Android 16 level at most, if not slightly above that. I certainly can't see them being anywhere near as strong as SSJ Goku and Gohan at the Cell Games, or even Vegeta and Trunks at that point in the story. While they definitely had the potential to reach, and even surpass that level, the fact is that the kids didn't train anywhere near as hard as the Cell Games Saiyans, or have even a fraction of their battle experience. Goten's only training before the Budokai consisted of sparring with Trunks, training with Chi-Chi, and training with a rusty Gohan for a few weeks. Despite all that, he wasn't too far behind Trunks.

What feats do we really have that would place the kids at the level of the Cell Games Saiyans? Trunks making 18 worry with a ki blast isn't too impressive since 18 herself isn't all that strong, compared to the Super Saiyans at least. And besides, it's still not known whether 18's concern was because the kids were outright stronger than her, or because she was shocked at someone of their strength appearing in the tournament after all the strong fighters had already lefy. Trunks' statement about 18 being able to survive could also be chalked down to an generally arrogant kid overestimating himself.

Goten sparring with Gohan also shouldn't be relied on as an accurate gauge of his strength. Aside from that fact that Gohan was rusty as all hell, when you're sparring with someone you don't go all out and try and beat the crap out of them (unless you're Freeza). That's not the point of sparring. People spar so that they can improve their fighting technique and get stronger in the process. That can't happen if Fighter X is vastly stronger than Fighter Y, so X has to either restrict himself to Y's level, or to a level slightly above Y so as to push him to improve.

[dragon boss z]

If there was any indication that the ki-enzan could be powered down so it wouldn't slice them open if it hit them, it'd be one thing. However, we've never seen a single instance of that at all or even a suggestion that it could, so if it takes introducing a capability that we've seen no evidence of it having whatsoever in order for it to work, it just seems extremely implausible.

The kienzan is made of ki so it makes sense for the power of it to be able to changed, and in the anime there is evidence of this when it broke on Perfect Cell's neck. At the very least 18 had complete control over the disc and was confident she wouldn't seriously hurt them.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The way the kids blew Piccolo back with their full-power aura tells me they're definitely far above #18 at the very least.

An intentionally suppressed blast was enough to make her crap herself. The same #18 laughed off Vegeta's Big Bang Attack and even decided to tank it later.

Gohan was blocking Goten's attacks under duress with his aura up. The kids are pretty powerful and there's no reason to low-ball them.

[theherodjl]

If there was any indication that the ki-enzan could be powered down so it wouldn't slice them open if it hit them, it'd be one thing. However, we've never seen a single instance of that at all or even a suggestion that it could, so if it takes introducing a capability that we've seen no evidence of it having whatsoever in order for it to work, it just seems extremely implausible.

The kienzan is made of ki so it makes sense for the power of it to be able to changed, and in the anime there is evidence of this when it broke on Perfect Cell's neck. At the very least 18 had complete control over the disc and was confident she wouldn't seriously hurt them.

There has not been a single statement or demonstration of the Kienzan being "depowered" or altered to appear weaker, its always been a one-hit-kill technique and Goten & Trunks' reaction to it is a perfect example. Android 18 was certain they could dodge it due to both being SSJs with greater power and speed than her as well as the Kienzan having a very obvious trajectory, Freeza was even able to dodge multiple Kienzan.
The instance with Cell is different, Krillin sure as hell wasn't going to weaken his Kienzan on Cell when the love of his life was just absorbed by him. It could be that Cell simply knew it was coming and braced himself at one point, Gohan was able to grab 2 Kienzan with his aura and dissipate them so its not out of the question that an expert Ki user like Cell may have been on to such a method.

[dragon boss z]

There has not been a single statement or demonstration of the Kienzan being "depowered" or altered to appear weaker, its always been a one-hit-kill technique and Goten & Trunks' reaction to it is a perfect example.

Unless the kienzan works different from other ki attacks, its power can be altered.

Android 18 was certain they could dodge it due to both being SSJs with greater power and speed than her as well as the Kienzan having a very obvious trajectory, Freeza was even able to dodge multiple Kienzan.

Either way she knew it wasn't going to kill them.

The instance with Cell is different, Krillin sure as hell wasn't going to weaken his Kienzan on Cell when the love of his life was just absorbed by him. It could be that Cell simply knew it was coming and braced himself at one point, Gohan was able to grab 2 Kienzan with his aura and dissipate them so its not out of the question that an expert Ki user like Cell may have been on to such a method.

His Ki had to be above Krillin's to do that. I doubt he could of tanked a disc from lets say Golden Frieza. It would slice right through him because Frieza's disc would have stronger ki.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Krillin nearly shredded 2nd form Freeza with a Kienzan. It's not a power level technique.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The way the kids blew Piccolo back with their full-power aura tells me they're definitely far above #18 at the very least.

An intentionally suppressed blast was enough to make her crap herself. The same #18 laughed off Vegeta's Big Bang Attack and even decided to tank it later.

Gohan was blocking Goten's attacks under duress with his aura up. The kids are pretty powerful and there's no reason to low-ball them.

Do you think they were stronger than Dabura?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No way. Gohan needed his rage power-up to take down Dabra.

Gohan said the kids would surpass him if he didn't get back on his training, so they were still inferior.

[TheGodfather93]

The way the kids blew Piccolo back with their full-power aura tells me they're definitely far above #18 at the very least.

An intentionally suppressed blast was enough to make her crap herself. The same #18 laughed off Vegeta's Big Bang Attack and even decided to tank it later.

Being stronger than 18 isn't that great of an accomplishment, for a Super Saiyan at least. While Vegeta may have gotten his ass handed to him by 18 in their initial meeting, he quickly surpassed her by leaps and bounds after training in the ROSAT for a year. He was so much more powerful than 18 that he could've wiped her out with a single ki blast if he wanted to. And yet, despite all that, Vegeta at that point in the story was significantly weaker than SSJ Goku and Gohan at the Cell Games, which was the pinnacle of what a regular Super Saiyan can achieve without ascending.

Gohan was blocking Goten's attacks under duress with his aura up. The kids are pretty powerful and there's no reason to low-ball them.

Like I said before, you can't use a sparring match to properly gauge how strong two characters are, since their levels have to be somewhat equal if they're going to get anything out of this sort of training. After all, if in real life a master martial artist goes all out when sparring against his student and crushes him, the student isn't going to benefit from the sparring at all. I also doubt aura means anything in this context, since most of the time it's just a superficial effect added to make something look flashier. Heck, Spopovich and Yamu of all people had auras. Doesn't mean they're anywhere near as powerful as the Z Warriors.

Goten and Trunks are freakishly strong for their age, there's no doubt about that. But they have no feats whatsoever that would place them on the same level as the Cell Games Super Saiyans.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Being stronger than 18 isn't that great of an accomplishment, for a Super Saiyan at least. While Vegeta may have gotten his ass handed to him by 18 in their initial meeting, he quickly surpassed her by leaps and bounds after training in the ROSAT for a year. He was so much more powerful than 18 that he could've wiped her out with a single ki blast if he wanted to. And yet, despite all that, Vegeta at that point in the story was significantly weaker than SSJ Goku and Gohan at the Cell Games, which was the pinnacle of what a regular Super Saiyan can achieve without ascending.

Being stronger than #18 for 2 kids that have only had "play fights" for the majority of their lives is notable enough. The fact that they were stronger than someone who was way stronger than their dads already speaks volumes

Like I said before, you can't use a sparring match to properly gauge how strong two characters are, since their levels have to be somewhat equal if they're going to get anything out of this sort of training.

How would lowering your level to make it so they're equal be beneficial at all? Piccolo sparred with Super Saiyan Goku to prepare for the Androids and ended up reaching a level only a Super Saiyan should be capable of. Piccolo beat the crap outta Gohan and both grew much stronger from it. Goku sparred with Kaio until he was ready to learn the Kaio-Ken. There's nothing that says they need to be on par with each other to get anything out of sparring.

After all, if in real life a master martial artist goes all out when sparring against his student and crushes him, the student isn't going to benefit from the sparring at all.

Not really. Look at Freeza and Tagoma. Tagoma was chosen to be Freeza's sparring partner and was crushed by Freeza every single day. The difference in power between them was quite clear. In the end, both powered-up tremendously from the training despite how one-sided their sparring sessions were. So that's another example that proves they don't need to be near each other's power to make noticeable gains.

I also doubt aura means anything in this context, since most of the time it's just a superficial effect added to make something look flashier. Heck, Spopovich and Yamu of all people had auras. Doesn't mean they're anywhere near as powerful as the Z Warriors.

You're comparing 2 guys utilizing flight auras to a powered-up Gohan that's having trouble blocking Goten's attack.



The situations aren't the least bit comparable.

Goten and Trunks are freakishly strong for their age, there's no doubt about that. But they have no feats whatsoever that would place them on the same level as the Cell Games Super Saiyans.

I don't even have them that as strong as the Cell Games Super Saiyans. They can be above Semi-Cell and Super Vegeta without any issues, though.

[miguelnuva1]

I have them around cell games Vegeta and Trunks. They can't beat Dabura but their power is right up their with Gohan, Vegeta and Goku.