Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

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Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:55 pm

The Kaio-ken hundred fold was used only once in M4 against Lord Slug and has never been achieved or mentioned again, does that mean the writers of DB forgot about that level whether it was unwittingly or intentionally?
Obviously Goku can use high degrees of Kaio-ken as shown in the Tournament of Power but is there any reason that he does not go above a twenty fold, when in a previous depiction he definitely could despite having less training & control of his Ki in that instance?
Might he use it again in the ToP or at another battle when he has no choice left?
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:27 pm

I think it depends on the writers mostly who come up with that stuff. The introduction of Kale confirmed pretty much that the movies are not canon to Super at the very least, so for that series Goku never achieved Kaio Ken x100 or encountered Lord Slug to begin with.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:52 pm

I hope they did and will never remember again.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:54 am

Shouldn't Goku at least know how to use a Kaio-ken x30 or a little higher at the very least? In the latest demonstration, Goku did use a x20 boost consecutively instead of just a one-time thing like in the fight against Freeza, are we led to believe that even a x21 boost is too much for him to handle?
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by sintzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:59 am

Wouldn't that have put his power at a Ssj2 level which also gives a 100× boost ?
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:11 am

The what now?

Oh, from Lord Slug? Did they forget about fake Super Saiyan too?

I wouldn't put much stock into that. Those multipliers get harder to take seriously the further up they go. I still think x20 is a bit silly, since even x2 is supposed to be dangerous. By rights a x20 and above Kaioken and Goku' should be lucky he has any bones. Now that the Kaioken Blue technique has hit it's peak, I don't think we'll see those numbers go any higher.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by KBABZ » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:20 am

I think the expense and stress on one's body from using the Kaio-Ken is also a factor. A x10 Kaio-Ken put an enormous strain on Goku's body, and yet Super Saiyan, which is x50, didn't do anything except deplete energy for the most part. K-K is handy in a pinch, but it's no substitute for increasing your base power or improving one of your power up forms.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:12 am

KBABZ wrote:I think the expense and stress on one's body from using the Kaio-Ken is also a factor. A x10 Kaio-Ken put an enormous strain on Goku's body, and yet Super Saiyan, which is x50, didn't do anything except deplete energy for the most part. K-K is handy in a pinch, but it's no substitute for increasing your base power or improving one of your power up forms.
A conflict of previous rules arises in that the "strain" and "stress" that Kaio-ken once subjected onto Goku's body has pretty much been negated by his intense training and unique physiology, it was a problem for him in the past but he has since overcome such a liability. Goku says something along the lines that ordinarily, Kaio-ken had a 90% chance of doing him in but he has since been able to beat the odds and use it at will, to the point in which he can still use his maximum power up after some 11+ years of not using it. After all the other myriad of transformations, gravity, weight training, and achieved states he has subjected his body to, Goku succumbing to the Kaio-ken even at higher levels seems unlikely. The worst he could do is suffer from delayed onset Ki disorder for longer or permanent periods.
I'm certain he could push himself to a Kaio-ken x21 and not explode if he could also maintain the Genki Dama while using the x20.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:09 pm

theherodjl wrote:The Kaio-ken hundred fold was used only once in M4 against Lord Slug and has never been achieved or mentioned again, does that mean the writers of DB forgot about that level whether it was unwittingly or intentionally?
Obviously Goku can use high degrees of Kaio-ken as shown in the Tournament of Power but is there any reason that he does not go above a twenty fold, when in a previous depiction he definitely could despite having less training & control of his Ki in that instance?
Might he use it again in the ToP or at another battle when he has no choice left?
This is why teaching the other guys Kaioken would be a HUGE boon to their usefulness. They are much stronger than Goku when he learned it and them pushing it to KKx100 would put them at low SSJ levels. I swear there is zero reason to do this because they could literally learn it at anytime.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Pantalones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:05 pm

The what now?

Oh, from Lord Slug? Did they forget about fake Super Saiyan too?
Nah, they just recolored it gold. The transformation was never supposed to be some "false" Super Saiyan state, that concept was made up afterward in an attempt to explain why they look different without mentioning the obvious "out-of-universe" reason (Toei didn't have the actual design/colors of SSj from Toriyama yet when they made that movie.)

As for Kaio-ken x100, considering that Goku only uses it in the movie after Piccolo lends him his power, I figure a Kaio-ken of that level is too much for Goku to ever handle on his own and you need someone else's energy to pull it off without risking your life. Maybe if he did the "almost" SSj God ritual (where they were one Saiyan short and Goku got significantly stronger, but didn't transform) he'd be able to do something like that again, or maybe it's something that would be possible when fused. Or maybe now that he's apparently able to use Kaio-ken x20 safely when in Super Saiyan Blue, Kaio-ken x100 (or something a little less extreme like x50 or something) would be possible in short bursts like how x20 was originally used.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:26 pm

Kataphrut wrote:The what now?

Oh, from Lord Slug? Did they forget about fake Super Saiyan too?
IIRC, the only time we saw faux-SSJ in the anime, was in DBZ ep. 180 - part of the OtherWorld Tournament saga:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
*Mind you, this was the same filler arc that had Pikkon one-shot Cell, Freeza, and King Cold.



Said arc also featured a brief glimpse of 'Super Kaio Ken':
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...And we never saw anything similar to that until quite recently in DBS.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:27 pm

Galan007 wrote:IIRC, the only time we saw faux-SSJ in the anime, was in DBZ ep. 180 - part of the OtherWorld Tournament saga:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
*Mind you, this was the same filler arc that had Pikkon one-shot Cell, Freeza, and King Cold.
It appears as a regular Super Saiyan in the preview. Toei just didn't bother to remake Goku's hair and remove the aura. But that's not False Super Saiyan.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:30 pm

Galan007 wrote:
Kataphrut wrote:The what now?

Oh, from Lord Slug? Did they forget about fake Super Saiyan too?
IIRC, the only time we saw faux-SSJ in the anime, was in DBZ ep. 180 - part of the OtherWorld Tournament saga:

[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]
*Mind you, this was the same filler arc that had Pikkon one-shot Cell, Freeza, and King Cold.



Said arc also featured a brief glimpse of 'Super Kaio Ken':
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
...And we never saw anything similar to that until quite recently in DBS.
You can infer it to be an entry level state.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:44 pm

Grimlock wrote:It appears as a regular Super Saiyan in the preview. Toei just didn't bother to remake Goku's hair and remove the aura. But that's not False Super Saiyan.
I wasn't aware that previews supersede what happened in the episode itself..? :eh:

May not be a *true* faux-SSJ transformation, but it's still the closest we ever saw to it in the anime.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Galan007 wrote:I wasn't aware that previews supersede what happened in the episode itself..? :eh:
What? That scene of Goku fighting Gyniu Force appeared in the preview of the previous episode and Goku was just Super Saiyan. During the week, Toei removed the golden color and kept everything else. The result is what you posted in those images.

It doesn't have anything to do with False Super Saiyan, at all.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:38 pm

Grimlock wrote:What? That scene of Goku fighting Gyniu Force appeared in the preview of the previous episode and Goku was just Super Saiyan. During the week, Toei removed the golden color and kept everything else. The result is what you posted in those images.

It doesn't have anything to do with False Super Saiyan, at all.
So like I asked: when did previews start superseding/overruling the episodes themselves? I only ask because I would naturally think it's the other way around(ie. the episode itself > a preview for that episode), but I digress... /shrug

...Not that it really matters, as the scene/episode is still non-canon filler either way. :wink:

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:53 pm

I don't think it's that case. Paikuhan was near Goku in that moment and Toei just wanted to save the Super Saiyan transformation for when Goku goes to battle him. I don't remember but I think Paikuhan even gets surprised when he sees Super Saiyan Goku in the tournament, he wouldn't be if he had seen that form before. So that's why Toei did that.
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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by Galan007 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:39 pm

Grimlock wrote:I don't think it's that case. Paikuhan was near Goku in that moment and Toei just wanted to save the Super Saiyan transformation for when Goku goes to battle him. I don't remember but I think Paikuhan even gets surprised when he sees Super Saiyan Goku in the tournament, he wouldn't be if he had seen that form before. So that's why Toei did that.
I don't disagree with your assessment at all. In fact, that's exactly *why* I think the form Goku assumed there was akin to a very close approximation of faux-SSJ... They were saving the *actual* SSJ transformation for the final battle between Goku and Pikkon, and didn't want to waste the reveal beforehand. Image

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:56 am

Thats a thing?

Is that from one of the guidebooks or something, because that sure as hell isn't stated in the movie.

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Re: Did Toei Forget About The Kaio-ken x100?

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:13 pm

JazzMazz wrote:Thats a thing?

Is that from one of the guidebooks or something, because that sure as hell isn't stated in the movie.
Random blurb on a promotional image in one of the guidebooks. IIRC it's not even stated in any of the descriptions of Kaioken and its usages.

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