Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:54 pm

For being the "lord of everything" Zeno doesn't seem to have a vast array of powers & abilities that one would expect from a being comparable to God.
So far he has demonstrated; the ability to levitate or fly like many beings in DB do, materialize small objects, live for several tens of millions of years, survive in an extinguished void, and erase objects ranging from individuals to entire universes. Does this actually justify him as being "strong" or "unbeatable" however?
He could simply be a entropy-centric reality warper with the ability to teleport all physical matter & energy into an extra dimensional realm that could be defined as "oblivion", similar to the abstract entity from Marvel Comics which collects everything that is destroyed. He is also described as not being a fighter and is unable to detect what Ki/godly Ki users do at very high speeds, is this a sign that he's just an over zealous "eraser" with no actual power over anyone besides the constant threat that he might erase them? Is that also why he's seemingly depicted as a child, as to say that he's an immature God still working out his true abilities among other things?
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3405
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:02 pm

I don't think he's strong in a typical sense (ie has a very powerful Chi) shown throughout the series. It's more of a natural thing. Zeno can completely annihilate universes and withstand the destruction just fine. Simply being the one above all naturally puts him a class where he can't be touched. The ability to erase anyone or anything is all he really needs.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:07 pm

Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:19 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he tanks 'timeline-busting' attacks rather he's simply immune to the effects of his ability, which just seems to be a big white light that engulfs everything rather than make a multiversal explosion or fragmentation of the space/time barrier. Along with how Frost just seems to zip away from the ability, Zeno's power works not unlike the Ultimate Nullifier which sends objects directly to Oblivion upon contact. No huge shockwave seems to be emitted which leads to Zeno blunting or absorbing such a force.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Melee_Sovereign
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:43 am

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:01 am

Kaioshin claimed that he can't be defeated, so I think it's safe to say that he's actually strong, and has a matching durability to go with it. I don't think the gods would fear him as much as they do if he simply had a special ability. All it would take is for a sneak attack from one of the gods to kill him before he has a chance to use his Erase.

User avatar
Ki Breaker
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6572
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:15 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Ki Breaker » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:04 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote: All it would take is for a sneak attack from one of the gods to kill him before he has a chance to use his Erase.
That could work if there weren't 4 guards and the strongest angel alongside with him 24/7.. And now there's two of them..
The Lord moves in mysterious ways but you don't have to. Please use your blinker

User avatar
TheMikado
I Live Here
Posts: 4982
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by TheMikado » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:42 am

The manga shows Zeno isn’t able to “see” even the Gods of Destruction fight because they are too fast.

He is likely just immortal and can manipulate all reality making him both impervious to anything in reality while being able to control it. The exception seems to be that Zeno is limited by time itself.

Basically Zeno would likely lose to a lot of people in and arm wrestling match but since he controls reality he would just naturally more the other hand.

Also it doesn’t appear that he is omniscient either.

User avatar
Galan007
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:34 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Galan007 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:21 am

As of now, Zen-Oh represents *the* most powerful destructive force in the Dragon Ball Multiverse(to the point where even Destroyers quake in fear of him.) He also seems to be a linear being, who is confined to his own sequential timeline(s). Moreover, he isn't classified as a "fighter", per se -- evidently he is beyond fighting all together. That said, while I don't imagine that Zen-Oh has much physical/fighting prowess to speak of, he could still erase every single being at the ToP with the snap of his fingers(inc. Angels and Destroyers.) So in *that* respect, he is very much 'strong'.


*All of that being said: I won't be overly surprised if it is eventually revealed that Daishinkan is actually more powerful than Zen-Oh himself, and has the power to put him in check if the need arises -- the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus, if you will. I mean, aside from all of his other, very fallible, qualities, Zen-Oh doesn't seem to have much *depth* of power for a 'Supreme Being'(ie. he comes off primarily as a destroyer; not a creator)... And typically Supreme Beings represent both sides -- the Alpha AND the Omega. Granted, we could certainly see the 'Alpha' side of Zen-Oh's power in episodes to come, but as of *now* he just doesn't seem like 'God' to me. /shrug

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Meshack » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:08 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Considering Zeno survived unscathed from wiping out an entire own timeline, yes, I'd figure him to be quite strong.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he tanks 'timeline-busting' attacks rather he's simply immune to the effects of his ability, which just seems to be a big white light that engulfs everything rather than make a multiversal explosion or fragmentation of the space/time barrier. Along with how Frost just seems to zip away from the ability, Zeno's power works not unlike the Ultimate Nullifier which sends objects directly to Oblivion upon contact. No huge shockwave seems to be emitted which leads to Zeno blunting or absorbing such a force.
The gods are not immortal so if someone destroyed where Zenoh was without Daishinkan knowing, Zenoh would die. It’s been established that no matter how strong you are, you can be defeated when you’re off your guard. Zenoh is not a fighter so he probably doesn’t have much control over his power.

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Meshack » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:10 pm

Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:03 pm

Meshack wrote:Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.
Erasure doesn't make Zeno strong under his own physical capabilities, it is his only offensive ability that doesn't involve him fighting or putting forth great effort.
Take Mr Mxy from DC Comics, he is a 5th dimensional Imp with reality warping powers that allow him to manipulate the entire DC universe at will, to such a degree that even the Spectre(God's vengeance incarnate) is subject to Mxy's control. However in one instance, Mxy had his nigh-omnipotent control temporarily cut off and was beaten up by Superman Prime, he was durable enough not to die by the hands of the powerful Kryptonian but without his abilities he was susceptible to being KO'd much like anyone else.
Then we have someone like Mad Jim Jaspers from Marvel Comics, he is potentially one of the most powerful characters in Marvel's reality because he slowly gains innate control over anything around him. It was reaching a degree that MJJ would eventually take over the Marvel universe and then expand until he had conquered all of the other universes in the multiverse, then he could presumably wrest total internal control from even the will of The One Above All, aka God in Marvel. However he ended up being defeated upon being transported to a void of nothingness with a complete lack of anything material & immaterial, with nothing to control he was lobotomized and destroyed soon afterward. A quick loophole ended his omnipotence prematurely.
It just goes to show that once supposedly all-powerful beings are robbed of their one ability to neutralise any other threat, they simply revert to being ordinary or just slightly unique. If Zeno didn't have the ability to erase objects on the spot he'd likely not be any serious kind of threat therefore he's not actually strong, he just happens to be in possession of a haxx, override superability.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Helios518
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 918
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:42 pm
Location: Not where you think

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Helios518 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:31 pm

IMO Zeno has a bunch of destruction power but not a lot of speed seeing as how they can't track Dyspo.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Meshack » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:56 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Meshack wrote:Zenoh is strong. I don’t get why people are doubting Zenoh’s strength/power. It’s kinda weird. It’s like saying that Beerus gets his power from Whis and Beerus is not that strong. Zenoh destroyed sox universes. He erased an entire world.
Erasure doesn't make Zeno strong under his own physical capabilities, it is his only offensive ability that doesn't involve him fighting or putting forth great effort.
Take Mr Mxy from DC Comics, he is a 5th dimensional Imp with reality warping powers that allow him to manipulate the entire DC universe at will, to such a degree that even the Spectre(God's vengeance incarnate) is subject to Mxy's control. However in one instance, Mxy had his nigh-omnipotent control temporarily cut off and was beaten up by Superman Prime, he was durable enough not to die by the hands of the powerful Kryptonian but without his abilities he was susceptible to being KO'd much like anyone else.
Then we have someone like Mad Jim Jaspers from Marvel Comics, he is potentially one of the most powerful characters in Marvel's reality because he slowly gains innate control over anything around him. It was reaching a degree that MJJ would eventually take over the Marvel universe and then expand until he had conquered all of the other universes in the multiverse, then he could presumably wrest total internal control from even the will of The One Above All, aka God in Marvel. However he ended up being defeated upon being transported to a void of nothingness with a complete lack of anything material & immaterial, with nothing to control he was lobotomized and destroyed soon afterward. A quick loophole ended his omnipotence prematurely.
It just goes to show that once supposedly all-powerful beings are robbed of their one ability to neutralise any other threat, they simply revert to being ordinary or just slightly unique. If Zeno didn't have the ability to erase objects on the spot he'd likely not be any serious kind of threat therefore he's not actually strong, he just happens to be in possession of a haxx, override superability.
Dragon Ball isn’t Marvel or DC Comics. Zenoh has been stated to have the power to destroy the univrrses. Quit questioning it. It was stated he erased six universes, he erased an entire world. Shin said Zenoh could not be defeated. What more do you need?

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Meshack » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:57 pm

Helios518 wrote:IMO Zeno has a bunch of destruction power but not a lot of speed seeing as how they can't track Dyspo.
Zenoh not being able to see Dyspo means that he wasn’t used to seeing that kind of speed. It’s nothing new

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:47 pm

Meshack wrote:Dragon Ball isn’t Marvel or DC Comics. Zenoh has been stated to have the power to destroy the univrrses. Quit questioning it. It was stated he erased six universes, he erased an entire world. Shin said Zenoh could not be defeated. What more do you need?
You seem to be misunderstanding a few things.
1. I'm not placing DB onto Marvel or DC's rules but referencing a certain trope involving powerful beings across fiction sharing a particular shortcoming.
2. When did I state that Zeno couldn't destroy the universes? That's not what's being questioned here.
3. As long as Zeno is vigilant with his ability he cannot be defeated, it he were to be caught by surprise then that might not be the case.

He has an overpowered ability, true. However is he still the most powerful being without his only offensive technique?
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:22 am

I'm pretty sure his power comes from two factors:

1. His ability to erase things

2. His durability - he's essentially indestructible

It's been shown that some characters (like Dyspo and presumably the Angels) are too fast for him to keep up with, but that doesn't matter if they can't do anything to actually hurt him before he erases them.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Pantalones
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:30 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Pantalones » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:44 am

I figure he's ludicrously powerful, but has little to no fighting skill and lacks the sort of "killer instinct" actual fighters would have. We've already seen him have trouble following high-speed combat, which seems to be a skill that's a combination of power and training/experience (or having weird alien super-eyes in the case of Jaco -- guess that's his, or his species', weird built-in ability like Burter's speed or Guldo's time weirdness.) His reflexes would seem super slow compared to the Gods of Destruction or god-level fighters like Goku or Jiren, and he wouldn't be very good at actually throwing a punch or kicking or dodging or blocking or any of those basic fighting skills that everyone else takes for granted. I guess you could compare him to the healing-oriented Dragon Clan Namekians, who are almost certainly in the 100+ range power level wise (and that's before getting potential unlocked and becoming God of Earth like Dende did) but since they aren't trained to fight and don't learn fighting techniques they're still considered to be "not fighters." Even though Dende is known to be more powerful than Kami since he's able to make more powerful Dragonballs, making him technically stronger than the entire cast of actually-fighters characters in pre-Z Dragonball even though he doesn't know how to fight!

Zen'oh is capable of releasing an insane amount of destructive godly ki which wipes out basically anything, either focused on a single target or just spreading to everything around him... but he'd end up looking like an idiot if he tried to fight somebody hand to hand rather than just unleashing that enormous ki in a sort of "super Hakai" technique that erases whatever he wants. He wouldn't necessarily get hurt at all by being smacked around by... I dunno, Freeza or somebody... due to his raw power (ki) being so high compared to everyone else that his durability would also be ridiculously high, but he wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed and skill of somebody in the god-levels of power who was an actual skilled fighter.

User avatar
Jack Bz
Regular
Posts: 534
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:31 am

Zeno can erase anything, and is probably indestructible. Shin says with absolute certainty that he can't be defeated and is alive in Trunks' timeline.

There is a scene, however, where Grand Priest puts a shield around the Zenos during the spirit bomb Goku does against Jiren. But that could be for other reasons, maybe just so they weren't disturbed by it.

I don't think he has any sort of combat skill whatsoever, and probably can't show any feats of strength such as lifting something heavy or destroying something without erasing it from existence.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2213
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Zeno Actually "Strong" Or Does He Just Have A Unique Ability To Erase Objects?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:38 pm

Jack Bz wrote:Zeno can erase anything, and is probably indestructible. Shin says with absolute certainty that he can't be defeated and is alive in Trunks' timeline.

There is a scene, however, where Grand Priest puts a shield around the Zenos during the spirit bomb Goku does against Jiren. But that could be for other reasons, maybe just so they weren't disturbed by it.

I don't think he has any sort of combat skill whatsoever, and probably can't show any feats of strength such as lifting something heavy or destroying something without erasing it from existence.
Well I agree that Zeno probably isn't so vulnerable to harm or destruction himself, Shin has a history of not being a very reliable witness to mortals weaker than him let alone gods stronger than he. Being a younger Kaioshin he had considerably less knowledge of Beerus' total history and abilities prior to Rou Kaioshin & Whis explaining it in greater detail, its not so farfetched that Shin would know even less about Zeno, who he had never personally met before, and would just be making the case of Zeno being unbeatable as far as he could figure rather than what he knew for sure.
We may just see an upcoming arc reveal that there are loopholes in causing Zeno trouble or some type of physical inconvenience, then it will take Goku & Co to bail him out.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

Post Reply