If Future Roshi did Secret Training, he could have saved the future

[The_Destroyer]

Just think about it. Roshi got a massive powerboost by training in secret. Imagine if he did it in the future timeline.

For some reason he got the motivation to train in Super, so let's say the death of his pupils at the hands of the Androids motivates him to do secret training.

If he gets the power boost he did in Super, I believe that he could have defeated the androids. Obviously not in hand to hand combat, but using the mafuba. In the ToP, Roshi was able to use the Mafuba multiple times, even on an opponent like Frost, who is FAR stronger then 17 and 18. So logically, he could mafuba both.


So all he needed to do was grab two jars and put a seal on them. Then he should go team up with Gohan, since he can only Mafuba one at a time. Roshi obviously takes 18 first, because you know. And Gohan fights 17 to give Roshi cover. So he traps 18, 17 tries to interviene but Gohan keeps him at bay. Then Roshi gets mafubas 17 and it's game over for the androids.


Obviously there's cell, but at that point Roshi would have taught Gohan the Mafuba, and assuming he can survive the first encounter with cell so he can go grab a jar from Roshi and do it himself, then there's no problem.

Then of course you've got Majin Buu, but by this point Trunks is fully grown, and both him and Gohan could take Dabura with the help of Supreme Kai.


Black doesn't happen because Trunks doesn't need to go back in time, so Goku Black is never born.


So yeah, Roshi could have saved the future if he did secret training.

[Lionel]

Why can't Roshi defeat the cyborgs in a conventional fight? Whatever secretive training he underwent allowed him to challenge opponents that would have been considered troublesome for the others of his team. It sounds insane but the man has to be above and beyond the vast majority of the DBZ roster. Super has inflated the strength of fighters so much with some of these implicative scenes that it doesn't seem like DBZ's character power levels have much of a place now.

[sintzu]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

[DSB]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Roshi isnt as strong as people think, even in Super. I cant see why Roshi couldnt have beaten the Androids if he used Mafuba. Have Gohan and Trunks hold one off, he captures the other and seals that. And repeat for the other one and be done with it

[sintzu]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Roshi isnt as strong as people think, even in Super. I cant see why Roshi couldnt have beaten the Androids if he used Mafuba. Have Gohan and Trunks hold one off, he captures the other and seals that. And repeat for the other one and be done with it

Because he'd die and with beings that strong there's no guarantee that he'll be able to get them in his container or if it'll even hold them.

[DSB]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Roshi isnt as strong as people think, even in Super. I cant see why Roshi couldnt have beaten the Androids if he used Mafuba. Have Gohan and Trunks hold one off, he captures the other and seals that. And repeat for the other one and be done with it

Because he'd die and with beings that strong there's no guarantee that he'll be able to get them in his container or if it'll even hold them.

I dont think he would have died without sealing at least one android

[dragonball0900]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

I agree, Super has done a lot of crazy things with the power scalling of certain characters, specially Roshi, that it's not possible to take it seriously now.

[Whatever]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Hahahahhahha,yeah sure it did,i am pretty sure the humans having better gains by training with Kami in 1 year than Goku did in 3 despite them having less 'potential' than Goku is pretty logical as well and thats only 1 example of how logical the original manga was.
Not to mention most of the stupid/illogical power boosts,Roshi,Freeza or 17 were Toriyama's idea,you know the same person that wrote the manga you praise?

[DSB]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Hahahahhahha,yeah sure it did,i am pretty sure the humans having better gains by training with Kami in 1 year than Goku did in 3 despite them having less 'potential' than Goku is pretty logical as well.
Not to mention most of the stupid/illogical power boosts,Roshi,Freeza or 17 were Toriyama's idea,you know the same person that wrote the manga you praise?

Lets not Forget that the Vegeta he couldnt hurt Recoome got beat up, ate a Senzu, got a Zenkai only to be Able to get hurt a bit by Ginyu Goku and Jeice. That same Vegeta a few hours later stalemated First form freeza.

My God quit your BS guys, Toriyama never wrote DB with logic. Roshi making gains is far more logical.

[rereboy]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Hahahahhahha,yeah sure it did,i am pretty sure the humans having better gains by training with Kami in 1 year than Goku did in 3 despite them having less 'potential' than Goku is pretty logical as well and thats only 1 example of how logical the original manga was.
Not to mention most of the stupid/illogical power boosts,Roshi,Freeza or 17 were Toriyama's idea,you know the same person that wrote the manga you praise?

We are talking about completely different magnitudes here.

Nothing is ever completely consistent, but saying that a character should be weaker or shouldn't get that many gains or that one zenkai was stronger than others zenkais for plot conveniences, is completely different from saying that it's fine for a character that had already admitted to be outclassed and not to be able to keep up with the younger generation to, out of nowhere, be millions if not billions of times stronger with no depicted special straining or satisfying explanation.

To use an example, the original manga sometimes shot off target by 3 meters, 5 meter, 10 meters, sometimes even 15 meters, and Super is shooting off target by kilometers.

[Timetraveller]

My God quit your BS guys, Toriyama never wrote DB with logic. Roshi making gains is far more logical.

Roshi, a retired man who spends all of his time watching TV, making astronomical gains is more logical? This is a man who at his peak was weaker than king Piccolo. What kind of training could he do alone anyway? Punching and kicking the air.

[sintzu]

I dont think he would have died without sealing at least one android

He died against Piccolo after just trying it.

Not to mention most of the stupid/illogical power boosts were Toriyama's idea,you know the same person that wrote the manga you praise?

He wrote the manga 20+ years ago with a completely different mindset. We also still don't know who wrote 17 and Roshi the way they're written in the tournament so we'll have to wait for the manga to come out to see. If the manga does the same thing then we'll know it was him and it'll still be bad writing.

[DSB]

My God quit your BS guys, Toriyama never wrote DB with logic. Roshi making gains is far more logical.

Roshi, a retired man who spends all of his time watching TV, making astronomical gains is more logical? This is a man who at his peak was weaker than king Piccolo. What kind of training could he do alone anyway? Punching and kicking the air.

I like how you completely ignored the Vegeta example. Even before the ToP he told Goku he had some new techniques. How do we know he didnt do any training? And yes Punching and Kicking the air is actually the base of all real and fictional training. Gohan swinged a heavy sword in the air and made heavy gains.

Also how do we know that the Mafuba was perfected by Roshi when he died against piccolo? He could have perfected it in years. Theres over 30 years.

[TheZFighter]

The reality is that inconsistencies and things that seem "illogical" (relatively speaking), have always been a part of this franchise.

Personally I don't believe Roshi has hit a level where he could deal with Future 17 and 18.

[Whatever]

We are talking about completely different magnitudes here.

Nothing is ever completely consistent, but saying that a character should be weaker or shouldn't get that many gains or that one zenkai was stronger than others zenkais for plot conveniences, is completely different from saying that it's fine for a character that had already admitted to be outclassed and not to be able to keep up with the younger generation to, out of nowhere, be millions if not billions of times stronger with no depicted special straining or satisfying explanation.

To use an example, the original manga sometimes shot off target by 3 meters, 5 meter, 10 meters, sometimes even 15 meters, and Super is shooting off target by kilometers.

The point i was addressing was that sintzu said that the original manga used logic,which is far from the truth.
Now you can argue which one is less logical but point is both are illogical.

Saying you are fine accepting 10-11 year old ssj Gohan(keep in mind Gohan has been irrelevant both character and power wise for the whole saga till the Cell games) suddenly becoming stronger than most of Cell's forms despite his 23 year old future counterpart(which by the way trained like 10 more years than present Gohan)not even being able to handle a weaker 17 but a retired character becoming the strongest(humans are ants in universe,so its him pretty much becoming the strongest ant) human is too much of a stretch to you?

Now don't get me wrong,i am not defending one more than the other,as i said both are stupid/illogical but i think you underestimate how close the leaps in logic in both DBZ and DBS are in comparison to each other.

He wrote the manga 20+ years ago with a completely different mindset. We also still don't know who wrote 17 and Roshi the way they're written in the tournament so we'll have to wait for the manga to come out to see. If the manga does the same thing then we'll know it was him and it'll still be bad writing.

His mindset is not that much different from then.
Freeza's training gains is not that much different from say Piccolo's insane gains from 1 month King kai training,the reason it seems more ridiculous is because the powercreep gets bigger the longer we go on,so Freeza's situation sticks out more.

[DSB]

The reality is that inconsistencies and things that seem "illogical" (relatively speaking), have always been a part of this franchise.

Personally I don't believe Roshi has hit a level where he could deal with Future 17 and 18.

I think Mafuba had a chance [like i said before]

[DSB]

He wrote the manga 20+ years ago with a completely different mindset. We also still don't know who wrote 17 and Roshi the way they're written in the tournament so we'll have to wait for the manga to come out to see. If the manga does the same thing then we'll know it was him and it'll still be bad writing.

His mindset is not that much different from then.
Freeza's training gains is not that much different from say Piccolo's insane gains from 1 month King kai training,the reason it seems more ridiculous is because the powercreep gets bigger the longer we go on,so Freeza's situation sticks out more.

Well Freeza has the greatest Potential of any U7 mortal [yes more than Gohan], so i hardly see his Golden form as ridiculous

[sintzu]

His mindset is not that much different from then.

Freeza's training gains is not that much different from say Piccolo's insane gains from 1 month King kai training...

I doubt anyone can go 20 years without changing.

He gained that power from his fusion with Nail. Freeza went from Ssj1 level to being stronger than post Whis training SsjB level in just 4 months.

[Whatever]

His mindset is not that much different from then.

Freeza's training gains is not that much different from say Piccolo's insane gains from 1 month King kai training...

I doubt anyone can go 20 years without changing.

He gained that power from his fusion with Nail. Freeza went from Ssj1 level to being stronger than post Whis training SsjB level in just 4 months.

He went from weaker than Nappa to stronger than Nail(how much stronger we don't know,we only know he is stronger than him and weaker than 1st form Freeza).
The difference between his and Freeza's situation was that Freeza's case came later when the powercreep was bigger so his gains were even more ridiculous due to that.

[Timetraveller]

My God quit your BS guys, Toriyama never wrote DB with logic. Roshi making gains is far more logical.

Roshi, a retired man who spends all of his time watching TV, making astronomical gains is more logical? This is a man who at his peak was weaker than king Piccolo. What kind of training could he do alone anyway? Punching and kicking the air.

I like how you completely ignored the Vegeta example. Even before the ToP he told Goku he had some new techniques. How do we know he didnt do any training? And yes Punching and Kicking the air is actually the base of all real and fictional training. Gohan swinged a heavy sword in the air and made heavy gains.

Also how do we know that the Mafuba was perfected by Roshi when he died against piccolo? He could have perfected it in years. Theres over 30 years.

Because unlike Frieza's secret training, we actually saw what Roshi did throughout all the major conflicts in DBZ. He basically sat on the couch and provided commentary/comedy. Punching and kicking the air is the base for all real training but guys like Tien, Krillin, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta spent years fighting against the strongest villains in the universe and training with the literal gods of the universe. Tien spends every single minute of his life training in the mountains. Punching and kick air every once and a while doesn't even compare to what the other characters did.

Roshi at his absolute youth was weaker than king Piccolo. Put that into perspective