If Future Roshi did Secret Training, he could have saved the future

[Meshack]

We don’t know if Kame-Sennin is alive in the future. For all we know, he died when the Androids first attacked. Gohan and Trunks were the last warriors on the earth. I doubt Kame-Sennin is still around

They showed Master Roshi in the Trunks special living in a submarine with Oolong and Puar

The special is not the manga...

[rereboy]

Frost is waaaayyyy above Roshi.

I didn't say Frost wasn't superior. I stated that Roshi managed to push him back despite being weak, shortly after almost dying. It's abundantly clear just how much stronger Roshi has to be just for it to start making sense.

Guys, guys, guys. We don’t know what Kame-Sennin did to get stronger. It was never mentioned.

Which is part of the problem. Even when the original series wasn't all that consistent, at least it attempted to justify it and thing made sense at least on a superficial level. Super just doesn't care at all.

[dbgtFO]

We don’t know if Kame-Sennin is alive in the future. For all we know, he died when the Androids first attacked. Gohan and Trunks were the last warriors on the earth. I doubt Kame-Sennin is still around

They showed Master Roshi in the Trunks special living in a submarine with Oolong and Puar

The special is not the manga...

But it is the anime and since Super had the scene with Trunks going Super Saiyan upon discovering Gohan's body, it is pretty likely the events of the special are canon to the Super anime.

[Dbzfan94]

They showed Master Roshi in the Trunks special living in a submarine with Oolong and Puar

The special is not the manga...

But it is the anime and since Super had the scene with Trunks going Super Saiyan upon discovering Gohan's body, it is pretty likely the events of the special are canon to the Super anime.

^Exactly. Plus ngl the anime special is a much more complete version in my opinion,

[Meshack]

The special is not the manga...

But it is the anime and since Super had the scene with Trunks going Super Saiyan upon discovering Gohan's body, it is pretty likely the events of the special are canon to the Super anime.

^Exactly. Plus ngl the anime special is a much more complete version in my opinion,

Who cares if it was complete. It has nothing to do with being complete

[Meshack]

They showed Master Roshi in the Trunks special living in a submarine with Oolong and Puar

The special is not the manga...

But it is the anime and since Super had the scene with Trunks going Super Saiyan upon discovering Gohan's body, it is pretty likely the events of the special are canon to the Super anime.

I guess you guys aren’t understanding me. I said we don’t know if Kame-Sennin is alive. If anything, he’s dead because we never see him after the special

[Lord Beerus]

Frost is waaaayyyy above Roshi.

I didn't say Frost wasn't superior. I stated that Roshi managed to push him back despite being weak, shortly after almost dying. It's abundantly clear just how much stronger Roshi has to be just for it to start making sense.

If someone charges at you and is throwing punches, even if you know you're much stronger than the person doing it, you're going to instinctively going to move backwards and dodge because you naturally don't want to get hit. That sort of shit happens all the time in Dragon Ball. It's by no mean an indication of immense strength and by no means and indication that Roshi has become insanely strong. Especially since Frost states he's trying his best not to kill Roshi.

[rereboy]

If someone charges at you and is throwing punches, even if you know you're much stronger than the person doing it, you're going to instinctively going to move backwards and dodge because you naturally don't want to get hit. That sort of shit happens all the time in Dragon Ball. It's by no mean an indication of immense strength and by no means and indication that Roshi has become insanely strong. Especially since Frost states he's trying his best not to kill Roshi.

Dude, I'll be honest. To me it just sounds like you are going out of your way to justify just how obviously they didn't care about power consistency at all. And that's fine, you can think whatever you like and like whatever you want. But to me it's just so very obvious that they just sat down one day and said "you know, fans always complain that we use don't side characters... I know, let's use Roshi! Real old school Dragon Ball! But... isn't he like incredibly weak by comparison, I mean like more than 100 times weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta? Oh well, who cares, we'll just say he's been training, make him use some techniques and not actually be a real match for the real opponents and that's more than enough. Hmm, although, Yamcha would actually make a lot more sense... Bah, screw Yamcha".

[Lord Beerus]

If someone charges at you and is throwing punches, even if you know you're much stronger than the person doing it, you're going to instinctively going to move backwards and dodge because you naturally don't want to get hit. That sort of shit happens all the time in Dragon Ball. It's by no mean an indication of immense strength and by no means and indication that Roshi has become insanely strong. Especially since Frost states he's trying his best not to kill Roshi.

Dude, I'll be honest. To me it just sounds like you are going out of your way to justify just how obviously they didn't care about power consistency at all. And that's fine, you can think whatever you like and like whatever you want. But to me it's just so very obvious that they just sat down one day and said "you know, fans always complain that we use don't side characters... I know, let's use Roshi! Real old school Dragon Ball! But... isn't he like incredibly weak by comparison, I mean like more than 100 times weaker than Saiyan arc Vegeta? Oh well, who cares, we'll just say he's been training, make him use some techniques and not actually be a real match for the real opponents and that's more than enough. Hmm, although, Yamcha would actually make a lot more sense... Bah, screw Yamcha".

And I feel as though fans are continuing to make mountains out of molehill and are creating power inconsistencies when are they really aren't there to begin. I'm not denying Roshi hasn't become more powerful since the Saiyan arc, but it's not specified just how much stronger he's become. So when fans are making this superfluous claim that he's become become hundreds and/or thousands of time stronger because another character who is much stronger than him dodged his punches, something that has occurred on many occasions in Dragon Ball stories for over thirty fucking years, that's when the complaints and cries of "This is a power scaling issue" or "They don't care about power inconsistency" lose a lot of their foundation.

[rereboy]

And I feel as though fans are continuing to make mountains out of molehill and are creating power inconsistencies when are they really aren't there to begin. I'm not denying Roshi hasn't become more powerful since the Saiyan arc, but it's not specified just how much stronger he's become. So when fans are making this superfluous claim that he's become become hundreds and/or thousands of time stronger because another character who is much stronger than him dodged his punches, something that has occurred on many occasions in Dragon Ball stories for over thirty fucking years, that's when the complaints and cries of "This is a power scaling issue" or "They don't care about power inconsistency" lose a lot of their foundation.

I gave you objective reasons and data for why it doesn't even make sense to think Roshi didn't become that much powerful. If you think it's superfluous, you have a right to, but, like I said, to me it just feels like going out of the way to justify it. I'm a logical thinker by nature so to me, things like this stand out from a mile away, and even though they are within an acceptable range within the main series most of the time, I can't say the same for Super. I don't have anything more to add than that, we'll just agree to disagree, I guess.

[Olympian]

The original manga used logic and already set up Roshi at a certain level so no matter how much training he could've done, it wouldn't have gotten him anywhere near the androids level.

Super on the other hand could have him out of nowhere be on Jerin's level so it's pointless to use its "logic" when talking about the original manga.

Hahahahhahha,yeah sure it did,i am pretty sure the humans having better gains by training with Kami in 1 year than Goku did in 3 despite them having less 'potential' than Goku is pretty logical as well and thats only 1 example of how logical the original manga was.
Not to mention most of the stupid/illogical power boosts,Roshi,Freeza or 17 were Toriyama's idea,you know the same person that wrote the manga you praise?

It was already sort of set, but let`s take one thing out of the way: Goku was considered a genius, yes, but the rest of the main gang were equally considered prodigies by their Senseis. Look at "Shen", an arc before the Sayan invasion, he was already telling Yamcha that with just a littleee more training he would flat out surpass him and at the time Yamcha and the others had only train under karin whereas Goku needed more power ups between Karin and that year to become stronger, in comparison.

I think a case could be made that the rest of the gang kind of always got bigger gains under the same teachers Goku did but since he`s the main character he`s always in the next step ahead. He breaks the plateus and the others follow and do it quickier if it requires.

This is massivaly overlooked but let`s compare Yamcha and Kuririn before the 22nd Bodukai. Both were trained in martial arts before becoming a Turtle student but by the time Yamcha becomes one, Kuririn already got what, five, six years of abnormal training ahead of him? And yet look at the jump Yamcha made from point A to being admitted by Kuririn as an equal. Kuririn flat out failed to master the Kamehameha the first time but when Yamcha tries, he`s already mastered it.

Compare the two in Baba`s Demon Toilet as well. You hardly would think Kuririn "should" be ahead at all.

Then comes in Tenshinhan and Chiatzu. Kuririn barely wins against Chiatzu (this may not be a popular opinion but let`s be honest, Chiatzu had him beat in Ki control and techniques and was good enough to spar physically) and Roshi decides to retire because with them, this new generation was full of prodigies to take over the old guns.

[Lord Beerus]

And I feel as though fans are continuing to make mountains out of molehill and are creating power inconsistencies when are they really aren't there to begin. I'm not denying Roshi hasn't become more powerful since the Saiyan arc, but it's not specified just how much stronger he's become. So when fans are making this superfluous claim that he's become become hundreds and/or thousands of time stronger because another character who is much stronger than him dodged his punches, something that has occurred on many occasions in Dragon Ball stories for over thirty fucking years, that's when the complaints and cries of "This is a power scaling issue" or "They don't care about power inconsistency" lose a lot of their foundation.

I gave you objective reasons and data for why it doesn't even make sense to think Roshi didn't become that much powerful. If you think it's superfluous, you have a right to, but, like I said, to me it just feels like going out of the way to justify it. I'm a logical thinker by nature so to me, things like this stand out from a mile away, and even though they are within an acceptable range within the main series most of the time, I can't say the same for Super. I don't have anything more to add than that, we'll just agree to disagree, I guess.

You gave me nothing but hyperbole and hypothesis with flimsy evidence. Answer me this... do know exactly how much stronger Roshi has gotten? No. If you have an issue that Roshi got stronger from off-screen training, that's perfectly fine. But don't start projecting the mentality that the you believe the writers had with how they wanted to include Roshi. Nothing, I repeat, nothing, has been specified in the story of just how much strong Roshi has become. Frost dodged Buff Roshi punches... big freakin deal. Final Form Freeza dodged Krillin physical attacks when he tried to bum rush him. Does that mean Krillin's immensely strong too? Hell no.

[The_Destroyer]

But my post said that Roshi would defeat them with the mafuba, not through hand to hand combat.

You do know that the stronger the opponent you use the Mafuba on, the more it drains your life force. So if Roshi, who very much below the Base Saiyans at this stage, were to try and use Mafuba on someone like the Future Android 17 or 18, he'd die instantly.
.

So explain why Seceret Training Roshi didn't die after using the mafuba on Frost, who is far stronger than the androids?

[Lord Beerus]

But my post said that Roshi would defeat them with the mafuba, not through hand to hand combat.

You do know that the stronger the opponent you use the Mafuba on, the more it drains your life force. So if Roshi, who very much below the Base Saiyans at this stage, were to try and use Mafuba on someone like the Future Android 17 or 18, he'd die instantly.
.

So explain why Seceret Training Roshi didn't die after using the mafuba on Frost, who is far stronger than the androids?

Frost is nothing special in the strength department. Frost got manhandled by SSJ Goku during the Champa arc tournament and an overcharged Makankosappo would have defeated him too. I doubt there is any noticeable gap in strength between him and Future #17 & #18. And Frost hasn't shown any major signs of improvement since the Champa arc. And Roshi performed the Mafuba when Frost wasn't expecting it. Plus, the Mafuba relies on how much life force you have and life force isn't directly related to power levels. So while Frost was more powerful than Roshi, Roshi had enough life force to perform the Mafuba on him. And even then Roshi still missed.

[rereboy]

You gave me nothing but hyperbole and hypothesis with flimsy evidence.

Excuse me...? Instead of just agreeing to disagree, this is how you choose to argue...?

I gave you the exact power stated for Roshi. I gave you exactly how much stronger Roshi would have to be just to surpass Namek second form Freeza but not even scratch Namek final form Freeza (100000 times stronger just to get to 13 million). I gave you a very specific example of a weak Roshi, who was recovering from almost dying, managing to push back Frost who, at the very least, is as strong as Namek Freeza.

Here, look at the guy who you are claiming is not thousands of times stronger, fighting back against Frost who is at least as strong as Namek Freeza:



I mean, how could I not see that Roshi is just a little stronger than he was and not thousands of times stronger at the very least? Frost being pushed back, looking taken aback, protecting himself from a weak, recovering from near death Roshi instead of just shrugging off his punches like a fly bite? Any weak character could do it, surely, is that your argument?

Maybe Roshi got a whooping 30 times stronger, reached an impressive power level of 4170, matching Nappa's power level, and did this. Seems reasonable and possible? I actually need at least many thousands of times increase in Roshi power for it beginning to make sense, but that's just me. Nappa's level probably does it just fine or perhaps even lower, 30 times is actually a lot and we don't have any evidence that it was that big, following your logic?

Perhaps you are right, I really gave you nothing, just "hyperbole and hypothesis with flimsy evidence". Or perhaps you are just going out of your way to justify this.

Answer me this... do know exactly how much stronger Roshi has gotten? No.

My argument was that Roshi got, obviously and necessarily, at the very least, many thousands of times stronger. Your question is just misdirection and I could ask you the same just about any character: Exactly how much stronger got #17? Krillin? Goku? Vegeta? The inability to answer that in any very specific way means that you can't have an idea of the minimum progress these characters had to achieve to do the things they now do when we know the maximum of what they could do in the past? No, obviously.

If you have an issue that Roshi got stronger from off-screen training, that's perfectly fine. But don't start projecting the mentality that the you believe the writers had with how they wanted to include Roshi.

I'll criticize the writers and state exactly how it feels to me that they reached their decisions, especially if I think they aren't doing a very good job regarding a certain aspect, since they are professional writers who get paid to do this and thus deserve serious scrutiny, thank you very much.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing, has been specified in the story of just how much strong Roshi has become.

Nor it has to. As I said, exactly how strong he is is not the point, the point is the minimum progress he would have to achieve for what happens with him to begin to make sense. Yeah, sure, if we ignore Goku and the others being perfectly fine with Roshi participating in the universal tournament with the best of all the universes, and ignore weak, recovering from near death Roshi pushing back Frost, not to mention anything else, perhaps it makes perfect sense for Roshi to not be at least thousands of times stronger? Maybe it's just me who is being unfair to the writers, and they are actually very consistent and explain things very well and reasonably and present fight scenes that could be interpret in any possible way regarding power consistency?

Frost dodged Buff Roshi punches... big freakin deal. Final Form Freeza dodged Krillin physical attacks when he tried to bum rush him. Does that mean Krillin's immensely strong too? Hell no.

Really? In Namek, Krillin did to Freeza exactly what Roshi did to Frost and Freeza reacted exactly the same way?

[The_Destroyer]

You do know that the stronger the opponent you use the Mafuba on, the more it drains your life force. So if Roshi, who very much below the Base Saiyans at this stage, were to try and use Mafuba on someone like the Future Android 17 or 18, he'd die instantly.
.

So explain why Seceret Training Roshi didn't die after using the mafuba on Frost, who is far stronger than the androids?

Frost is nothing special in the strength department. Frost got manhandled by SSJ Goku during the Champa arc tournament and an overcharged Makankosappo would have defeated him too. I doubt there is any noticeable gap in strength between him and Future #17 & #18. And Frost hasn't shown any major signs of improvement since the Champa arc. And Roshi performed the Mafuba when Frost wasn't expecting it. Plus, the Mafuba relies on how much life force you have and life force isn't directly related to power levels. So while Frost was more powerful than Roshi, Roshi had enough life force to perform the Mafuba on him. And even then Roshi still missed.

There most certainly is a gap between Frost and the androids. Frost was stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the androids. Plus, Goku's ssj and base is stronger than they were in Z. Frost can probably beat Base Goku, who would be stronger than the androids at this point.

As for Roshi, you also forget he did the Mafuba on Frost right after he used all his energy and died to Ganos, and he still survived. And then he did it AGAIN. If Frost was taken off guard, then so would the androids. Or at least one of them.

Seriously though, Super has given Roshi massive feats after secret training, don't get why you're trying to downplay them. I guess you're trying to imply that it's not bad writing, which is another argument in it's entirety, but don't try to downplay what was actually shown in the show because you want to defend the show.

[Lord Beerus]

Excuse me...? Instead of just agreeing to disagree, this is how you choose to argue...?

I gave you the exact power stated for Roshi. I gave you exactly how much stronger Roshi would have to be just to surpass Namek second form Freeza but not even scratch Namek final form Freeza (100000 times stronger just to get to 13 million). I gave you a very specific example of a weak Roshi, who was recovering from almost dying, managing to push back Frost who, at the very least, is as strong as Namek Freeza.

Here, look at the guy who you are claiming is not thousands of times stronger, fighting back against Frost who is at least as strong as Namek Freeza:



I mean, how could I not see that Roshi is just a little stronger than he was and not thousands of times stronger at the very least? Frost being pushed back, looking taken aback, protecting himself from a weak, recovering from near death Roshi instead of just shrugging off his punches like a fly bite? Any weak character could do it, surely, is that your argument?

Maybe Roshi got a whooping 30 times stronger, reached an impressive power level of 4170, matching Nappa's power level, and did this. Seems reasonable and possible? I actually need at least many thousands of times increase in Roshi power for it beginning to make sense, but that's just me. Nappa's level probably does it just fine or perhaps even lower, 30 times is actually a lot and we don't have any evidence that it was that big, following your logic?

Perhaps you are right, I really gave you nothing, just "hyperbole and hypothesis with flimsy evidence". Or perhaps you are just going out of your way to justify this.

You know right after that, this happened:



You're entire argument hinges on the notion that because Frost had to dodge Roshi punches it means that Roshi has become thousands of time stronger. Is Frost going to act like a idiot and stand there and let someone where charge at him and swinging punches just stand there and take them? Even if there is a huge gap in power between one opponent and the other, the much stronger opponent is still going to have the common sense to defend him/herself.

Case in point:
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]
The story at that stage had established that the likes of Krillin and Gohan were no match for Freeza in even in his first form. But are we not going to use your logic to insinuate that because Final Form Freeza, who is multiple times stronger, had to evade their attack, that means they've suddenly become much stronger as a result?

My argument was that Roshi got, obviously and necessarily, at the very least, many thousands of times stronger. Your question is just misdirection and I could ask you the same just about any character: Exactly how much stronger got #17? Krillin? Goku? Vegeta? The inability to answer that in any very specific way means that you can't have an idea of the minimum progress these characters had to achieve to do the things they now do when we know the maximum of what they could do in the past? No, obviously.

Nothing has been obvious about Roshi's gains in strength. You evidence is nothing more than a fallacy because it relies on the notion that Frost, despite being much stronger would be stupid enough to stand there and let Roshi attack him. Yoru entire argument depends on the idea that if a much weaker character makes a much stronger character evade his physical attacks, this eutes to the weaker also being incredibly strong, when Dragon Ball has gone out of it wa to disprove that to be the case. Your entire rests on the idea that Frost would have gotten injured or hurt by Roshi's assault, when the show had already established that gap in strength between Frost and Roshi was so large that Frost was pulling his punches and trying his hardest not kill Roshi by accident.

I'll criticize the writers and state exactly how it feels to me that they reached their decisions, especially if I think they aren't doing a very good job regarding a certain aspect, since they are professional writers who get paid to do this and thus deserve serious scrutiny, thank you very much.

It's fine if you want to criticize the execution of Roshi being selected for the Tournament Of Power, but conceptually, we have no idea why Roshi was chosen to be in the team beyond it being Toriyama's decision. So we're really not in sort of place to making condescending remark about the writing staff when it comes to Roshi being a major player in the arc. Especially considering this is a decision that was not in their control to begin with. And even more-so considering they gave legitimate reasons in-universe for Roshi being selected and later backed it up in battle several times.

Nor it has to. As I said, exactly how strong he is is not the point, the point is the minimum progress he would have to achieve for what happens with him to begin to make sense. Yeah, sure, if we ignore Goku and the others being perfectly fine with Roshi participating in the universal tournament with the best of all the universes, and ignore weak, recovering from near death Roshi pushing back Frost, not to mention anything else, perhaps it makes perfect sense for Roshi to not be at least thousands of times stronger? Maybe it's just me who is being unfair to the writers, and they are actually very consistent and explain things very well and reasonably and present fight scenes that could be interpret in any possible way regarding power consistency?

The context for why Roshi was brought into the Tournament was provided by Gohan, Goku and later Roshi himself. It's not to do with his strength. It's to due with the fact that he knows certain kinds of techniques that could take care of opponents that his much more powerful allies wouldn't be able to handle using just straightforward raw power. They thought that Roshi's massive experience and enormous bag of tricky attacks would be extremely useful knowing it is a tournament that isn't purely about power but teamwork and strategy as well. To which Goku agreed and also said that Master Roshi can easily hold his own with his special moves alone. And the show later provided they were all right.

You keep citing that a weakened Roshi made Frost dodge his punches when that example means nothing as we've seen several case of skirmishes like that Dragon Ball where the context of them has show that the much weaker character, who is attacking, is still very weak and practically non threat to much stronger opponent even the much stronger opponent had to to evade their attacks.

You want another example?
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

And another example?
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

You know what those fights have in similarity with Roshi vs Frost? Even though the weaker character was on the offence and made the much stronger evade his attacks, the weaker character still definitively lost, proving the much weaker character is still very much weaker than his opponent would barely, if at all, do any damage if he actually managed to land a hit on them.

Really? In Namek, Krillin did to Freeza exactly what Roshi did to Frost and Freeza reacted exactly the same way?

Their absolutely identical scenarios. Krillin, along with Gohan and Piccolo, who were all much weaker characters, attack a much stronger character. And Freeza has to evade their attacks. Now given the gap in power, Freeza could realistically stand there and tank all those attacks like they are nothing. But he doesn't. Why? Because he not that big of fucking idiot to stand there and just let all sorts of people attack him. Similarly, why should Frost just stand there and let Roshi hit him even though he knows (and we know) Roshi is much weaker? it doesn't matter if you're ten times or a hundred time or thousands time stronger than your opponent, if someone who is much weaker than you tries to attack you, you're instinctively going to want dodge that shit. Their martial artists. Not competing for World Stronger Man.

[rereboy]

You know right after that, this happened:

I know, I watched the fight. My point was never that Roshi was actually a match for Frost, like I repeatedly told you already.

You're entire argument hinges on the notion that because Frost had to dodge Roshi punches it means that Roshi has become thousands of time stronger.

Yeah, since it makes no sense otherwise given the way things were portrayed. Need I remind you again that an 100 times stronger Roshi is just 13900 and a 1000 times stronger Roshi is just 139000?

Case in point:
...

You aren't even noticing the focus and emphasis in all those scenes...

In all your examples, the focus and the emphasis is how impressive the one dodging is. In all of them, it's clear that the one dodging is treating the whole thing as a joke, as something completely easy, is completely in control, is completely relaxed and is only dodging because he wants to. In short, the point is to show that the one dodging thinks of the attacks and of the ones attacking as something trivial.

With Roshi it's the opposite. It's about how impressive Roshi is to be able to push back Frost despite not being a match, with Frost even looking taken aback, grimacing and grinding his teeth. The focus and emphasis is on what Roshi manages to do to Frost, and never about how impressive Frost is.

And because you don't see this, you say they are identical. They are actually the opposite.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah, since it makes no sense otherwise given the way things were portrayed. Need I remind you again that an 100 times stronger Roshi is just 13900 and a 1000 times stronger Roshi is just 139000?

That's a huge leap in logic. It would have had some foundation if Roshi actually managed, to you know, to injure Frost, but that's not the case as he doesn't land a punch.

You aren't even noticing the focus and emphasis in all those scenes...

In all your examples, the focus and the emphasis is how impressive the one dodging is. In all of them, it's clear that the one dodging is treating the whole thing as a joke, as something completely easy, is completely in control, is completely relaxed and is only dodging because he wants to. In short, the point is to show that the one dodging thinks of the attacks and of the ones attacking as something trivial.

With Roshi it's the opposite. Everything in it is about how impressive Roshi is to be able to push back Frost despite not being a match, with Frost even looking taken aback and grimacing. The focus and emphasis is on what Roshi manages to do to Frost, and never about how impressive Frost is.

And because you don't see this, you say they are identical. They are actually the opposite.

So because Frost was gritting his teeth while he was dodging the punches from Roshi, that means he was in danger? Even though we later see the context that not only was Frost never in any danger from Roshi's physical attacks, but was trying not to kill him by accident? Okay then.

I guess because Frost was grimacing from Roshi's assault that's all the indication we need to know that he was really on the ropes and would have been hurt by a weakened Roshi, even though Frost later clarifies the context of that skirmish with how he casually uppercuts Roshi with a smug grin on his face and swats him away like a fly.

Frost is already showing the focus needed to evade Roshi's assault and to make sure he doesn't kill Roshi because he's powerful enough, especially compared to Roshi, to do that unintentionally.

It's really no different at all from the other examples I provided. Frost was in such control of that fight, that only thing he needed to worry about was not using his immense power to accidently kill Roshi. How this scenario can possibly equate to Roshi beng thousands of time stronger is beyond me.

There most certainly is a gap between Frost and the androids. Frost was stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the androids. Plus, Goku's ssj and base is stronger than they were in Z. Frost can probably beat Base Goku, who would be stronger than the androids at this point.

As for Roshi, you also forget he did the Mafuba on Frost right after he used all his energy and died to Ganos, and he still survived. And then he did it AGAIN. If Frost was taken off guard, then so would the androids. Or at least one of them.

Seriously though, Super has given Roshi massive feats after secret training, don't get why you're trying to downplay them. I guess you're trying to imply that it's not bad writing, which is another argument in it's entirety, but don't try to downplay what was actually shown in the show because you want to defend the show.

After Roshi was brought back life he spent a few minutes to recover his strength by sitting out of the battles.

I'm not denying Roshi hasn't made big gains in Super. I'd say he'd become tens of times stronger leading up the events of Resurrection F, and then became tens of times stronger again after that. But what I don't agree with is the notion that Roshi because hundreds and/or thousands of time stronger, especially in the 40 hours leading up the Tournament Of Power.

[Pantalones]

Frost got manhandled by SSJ Goku during the Champa arc tournament and an overcharged Makankosappo would have defeated him too. I doubt there is any noticeable gap in strength between him and Future #17 & #18.

Um... Piccolo was equal with present #17 before going back in for another year-day of training before the Cell Games, which brought him up to a level that was at least somewhat close to SSj Trunks and Vegeta after their own two year-days of training. And then he trained (not ultra seriously, but he's Piccolo and has been pretty much stated to never stop training) for another 7 years after that, plus however much training he's done between Buu and Super.

Post-Buu-Saga Piccolo needing a Makankosappo to beat Frost even though he was already weakened from his fight with Goku would put Frost far, far, far above the future Androids, who wouldn't have even been able to beat "Kamiccolo" right after the fusion unless maybe they ganged up on him, and would have no chance at all against Cell Games Piccolo.