Super's feats and DBZ's feats

[kn83]

Jesus Christ its like arguing with a brick wall.

1. This is not my personal standards, this is basic logic. If it seems condescending to you then that's your problem, not mine.

2. The fact that we don't have any measurable time frame period for fights or Ki blasts prior to DBS means you can't assume they aren't lightpseed either. To argue that they aren't on that level based on this is an Argument for Ignorance fallacy and exposes you as a downplayer.

3. You keep twisting the definition of an outlier to suit your biases. Moon busting happened more than once, both times were relevant to the plot, so you can't dismiss it as an outlier just because you don't like it. YOUR the biased one, I'm simply apply the same rules of logic to any fictional verse.

4. If Toriyama, Toyotaro or some official guide recognizes an event or feat then it is an official thing, not an outlier. Their views have more weight than any fanwank or downplayer like yourself. If Toriyama were to come out of nowhere an say Krillin is stronger than Beerus then so be it, its his story, his word so its a fact of the verse.

Why? Because no one on this thread is letting you win the argument so you're mad that nobody else is backing you up?

1. Its your own opinion, rhetoric, viewpoint, or personal belief. Its trollish as hell to consider your argument worthy of being labeled 'basic logic' and anyone else's as "retarded" or "ignorance", all because you want to be the one who is making the most sense.

2. Actually I CAN assume its not lightspeed when the only examples of time having passed throughout DB, such as Roshi timing Goku & Krillin running or Kaio timing Goku's speed at the end of his training, is all in millisecond time. What reason at all do we have to believe that their general speed suddenly jumps to Nanosecond time just so this narrative of FTL feats can be justified prior to DBS? Anything beyond anecdotal connection of a few outlier feats or conjecture to prove that characters are on "X" level so they may be compared to some other medium of fiction? You certainly 'exposed' me, I MUST have some kind of bias to not agree with your opinion. Oh, excuse me, I meant "basic logic".

3. Yeah, I'm certainly twisting the facts around because two feats that only ever happened because of pure plot convenience cannot be defined outliers, just so it doesn't compromise or shake up your narrative. We certainly can't have that can we, if it upsets you or makes you uncomfortable?

4. Any official group that recognizes an outlier...well recognizes an outlier. There is no " Oh! But they let it happen one more time so that means their intention can be stretched to support my argument because its convenient for me, but can't work the other way because it shouldn't be convenient for anyone else!"

But what do I know? I never went to the school of selective reasoning, oh sorry...""basic logic".

You still don't get it .

How is it just my personal belief when I'm merely repeating what was stated and/or shown elsewhere? You are so delusional. If an official source recognizes a feat or event then by definition it isn't an outlier. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Do you have room temperature IQ lol? There is tons of filler crap that never got mentioned by guides (like Goku using kaioken as a SSJ in Z). There's even stuff from early in the manga that never got addressed (mostly before King Piccolo) but Piccolo and Roshi moon-busting is acknowledged in the Daizenshuu. That means its a valid feat whether you like it or not. Your biases and personal feelings mean nothing.

[theherodjl]

You still don't get it .

How is it just my personal belief when I'm merely repeating what was stated and/or shown elsewhere? You are so delusional. If an official source recognizes a feat or event then by definition it isn't an outlier. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Do you have room temperature IQ lol? There is tons of filler crap that never got mentioned by guides (like Goku using kaioken as a SSJ in Z). There's even stuff from early in the manga that never got addressed (mostly before King Piccolo) but Piccolo and Roshi moon-busting is acknowledged in the Daizenshuu. That means its a valid feat whether you like it or not. Your biases and personal feelings mean nothing.

Sorry, I'm still new to confirmation bias... Oops! I meant "basic logic" that's right.

The fact that I need to repeatedly define this outlier just for you to repeatedly deny that its an outlier so that your narrative holds up is proof of you being argumentative for its own sake, you've made it clear that you will stick to your opinion. That's respectable.
Clinging to a source which doesn't explicitly prove you right but also doesn't prove you wrong at the same time and can be stretched to suggest however you believe is your opinion, you're entitled to it.
Ad hominem is not an argument.
Outliers may count as feats although in a particularly situational manner, that was never contested.
The guides say nothing about the outlier having to do with anything else hut destructive capability, how you got an "official" confirmation of speed out of this is beyond me.
Must be all that 'basic logic' you got hopped up on, I'm guessing it comes in pretty strong doses.

[theherodjl]

Logic would dictate that they are indeed much faster than light, it depends on whether or not you choose to follow it. The story writers themselves don't so I don't blame you if you don't either, I stopped caring about it a while ago.

For instance, Buu Arc Goku struggling with 40 tons when BoDB Goku could easily handle boulders weighing several dozens to hundreds of tons, and push a huge one that would be in the thousands.

And Champa Arc SSJ Vegeta unable to even budge 1,000 tons which would suggest his base form can't handle even 20 tons which contradicts the original manga's continuity where Vegeta is able to train at 300x gravity which would place him around 20 tons, and that's before the 3 year training period for the androids.

Obviously it makes no sense for them to have gotten weaker than they used to be, but that's what the story tells us, it's just that some dismiss that as an inconsistency such as the guy you're arguing with.

Ultimately we have to accept the canon as facts, and if tomorrow they say Dyspo is the first fighter to exceed the speed of sound we would have no choice but to accept it, but I wouldn't blame anybody for pointing out that Goku clearly exceeded the speed of sound on his second trip across snake way.

I'd argue that we don't know how strong or fast they are with or without logic, that's the magic of DB.
If asked how strong they are then Toriyama would just say "strong", or how fast they are then Toriyama would just say "fast". His sense of scale with specific character feats such as lifting strength or movement speed has always been ill defined, like he doesn't know himself and makes it up as he goes. I don't mind that because it would be way too tedious to properly measure character feats via Ki or power levels, being that feats almost never line up with a specific tier or number on a scouter. The undeterminable fluctuation of what can be accomplished with Ki is always what keeps the fights fresh. It'd be kinda boring if everyone at point A can lift 10 tons and move at mach 3 and then point B has everyone at 20 tons and mach 5, there'd be far less surprises and room for what can be achieved.
So yeah, DB is poorly measured but that in no way means its unimaginative or dull.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'd argue that we don't know how strong or fast they are with or without logic, that's the magic of DB.
If asked how strong they are then Toriyama would just say "strong", or how fast they are then Toriyama would just say "fast". His sense of scale with specific character feats such as lifting strength or movement speed has always been ill defined, like he doesn't know himself and makes it up as he goes. I don't mind that because it would be way too tedious to properly measure character feats via Ki or power levels, being that feats almost never line up with a specific tier or number on a scouter. The undeterminable fluctuation of what can be accomplished with Ki is always what keeps the fights fresh. It'd be kinda boring if everyone at point A can lift 10 tons and move at mach 3 and then point B has everyone at 20 tons and mach 5, there'd be far less surprises and room for what can be achieved.
So yeah, DB is poorly measured but that in no way means its unimaginative or dull.

There should at least be some internal logic to the story, though. Tao Pai Pai who Goku already surpassed greatly in the RRA arc was expecting to travel 2,300 km on a pillar, kill Goku, and return in 30 minutes. That means his pillar was traveling at well over 10x the speed of sound. On the other hand, it takes Goku half a year to cross Snake Way on his first trip, his speed then would be a mere Mach 0.2, over 50x slower than Tao's pillar.

[Darkprince410]

1. If an official guide centers or covers canon material then it is canon itself. You can't dismiss it then just because you don't like it. I don't like the whole S-cells idea but I'm not going to say it isn't canon just because of that, its not my say so. No one is debating GT or the movies so why are you bringing to them up? If Toriyama were to one day say that Krillin is stronger then Whis then it is true for the series. You can't deny or rationalize away official statements on your whims.


4. If the Supreme Kai (who can kill Frieza in one blow) was intimidated by PuiPui and Yakon then those two are definitely stronger than Frieza. The idea that its impossible for base saiyans (pre-Super) to surpass Frieza is pure headcanon. Don't even bother bringing up Beerus comments. He also said that he didn't think SSJ Goku could beat Frieza in that same scene (despite both the viewers and Beerus himself seeing SSJ Goku beat Frieza through Whis's orb) which EVERYONE overlooks for some reason. If your going to ignore that line then you might as well ignore his comment about base Goku as well.

1) I don't know why you're bringing up official guides, as the blurb about the battle being on the other side of the planet wasn't from an official guide. As mentioned before, it was a blurb created by Viz Media's staff for their publication of the manga. Toriyama and Shueisha had nothing to do with it whatsoever, and thus it has no true validity. To accept it as fact would be saying that Bardock is a brilliant scientist because that's what the original Funimation dub of Z had Vegeta mention.

4) As addressed before, there's extremely strong evidence that Pui Pui and the rest of Babi-di's men cannot be sensed. Goku mentions that Spopovitch has no "life energy" he can detect, he required air current changes to find Yakon to dodge and combat him on the Planet of Darkness, and he and Vegeta needed to observe Dabra's movements and abilities to guesstimate how strong he was.

Considering there's no mention or suggestion at all of Goku and the others able to actually sense Babi-di's men (and evidence suggesting otherwise), we can infer then that they can't be sensed, and thus Kaioushin's fear isn't based on what he can detect. In fact, the very fact that he had sensed Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 strength just a short time before, and still fears the likes of Pui Pui and Yakon, would further point to them not having energy that could be sensed. Rather, his fear is based on reputation, that Babi-di only recruits the strongest fighters in the universe.

Beerus didn't say that. He specifically said he understands why Goku WAS able to beat Freeza, but laments that beating Freeza is likely the best that Goku could do.

Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.”

All that means is that, as far as the strength and abilities of the other individuals Beerus knows, someone of Freeza's level is the best Goku could ever beat. Nevertheless, he does readily say he understands how Goku could beat Freeza with that strength.

[dragon boss z]

1. If an official guide centers or covers canon material then it is canon itself. You can't dismiss it then just because you don't like it. I don't like the whole S-cells idea but I'm not going to say it isn't canon just because of that, its not my say so. No one is debating GT or the movies so why are you bringing to them up? If Toriyama were to one day say that Krillin is stronger then Whis then it is true for the series. You can't deny or rationalize away official statements on your whims.

If you think a guide holds more weight than the manga itself then you are just in denial. I proved that he wasn't across the planet, nothing more can be said here.

2. Earlier in this thread you tried to argue that Frieza and the Z-crew were fighting in the same area the whole time. I point out there is no way that can be so if Frieza keeps destroying the islands they're on and if they keep moving to different ones. If Goku landed on the same island as were Dende died then were is Dende's body? They didn't bury him nor take it with them. YOUR the one with poor reading comprehension.

The reason you don't see Dende's body is because he was killed in the back of the island. Krillin, Piccolo, and Gohan never step off the island Dende died on. You can read chapter 304 to 306 to see this. Even ssj Goku and 100% Frieza were still close enough to Parunga to see him. Like I said if you think they were on the other side of the planet you are in denial.

3. There are way too many flaws with this argument

A) Using images of the moon that aren't even drawn to scale to argue that it is smaller than in reality is the height of stupidity.
B) Using gag feats from a gag character to scale with non-gag feats from non-gags characters is retarded. Kid Goku in the earliest chapters once literality broke the fourth walls in the manga. Does that make him a transfictional buster lmao? Gag feats are real outliers because they are not meant to be taken narratively serious, unlike Roshi and especially Piccolo moon-busting which was inherent to the plot of a non-gag story, so you can't dismiss those as outliers while excepting Arale.
C) None of the guides or interviews stated or imply that the moon is smaller (or larger) than in reality anyway. So to assume it is smaller is an appeal to ignorance fallacy and your baseless headcanon.

I agree that out of all my arguments this is the one that could be wrong. But it is still enough for me to question he moon feats considering there are so many things contradicting the moon feats.

4. If the Supreme Kai (who can kill Frieza in one blow) was intimidated by PuiPui and Yakon then those two are definitely stronger than Frieza. The idea that its impossible for base saiyans (pre-Super) to surpass Frieza is pure headcanon. Don't even bother bringing up Beerus comments. He also said that he didn't think SSJ Goku could beat Frieza in that same scene (despite both the viewers and Beerus himself seeing SSJ Goku beat Frieza through Whis's orb) which EVERYONE overlooks for some reason. If your going to ignore that line then you might as well ignore his comment about base Goku as well.

No, Beerus said ssj Goku was enough to beat Frieza. People overlooked that because the orignal time the episode aired it was mistranslated. The real translation was "I can see how you beat Frieza now, but Frieza is probably about the best you can do".
And Pui Pui thought 10x gravity was enough and the Supreme kai didn't actually know who he was. He was definitely weaker than Frieza. Only Yakkon could arguably be stronger since the Supreme Kai herd of him before. However Beerus seems to know more than the supreme Kai and Beerus thought no mortal could beat Frieza. It's also possible the supreme Kai didn't' even know Frieza could transform, meaning he could of been thinking of first form Frieza. Though I do think the supreme kai is stronger than final form Frieza.

5. If you are talking about the first stroke then anyone with a PL of at least 366,000 (ignoring the fact that PLs are not liner but exponential) should be FTL. That's first form Frieza and above. The speed of light is 671 million mph, the first stroke of lighting is 220,000 mph. Goku was dodging lighting at Kami's lookout with a PL of 120. If you do the math then you'll realize that Seth the Programmer was right. And don't give that "powerlevels are bullshit" nonsense, Toriyama himself never said that neither has Toyotaro nor anyone in Toei or Jump.

If post namek saga characters were FTL, then nobody would of been surprised that Goku could go 1,000 km and back so quickly. Him doing that was proof he could teleport because nobody could move that far that fast. So if yadrat base Goku can't move 1,000 km and back in a few seconds he isn't FTL.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

6. To argue that BOZ Piccolo or even Roshi can't moon-bust is just as retarded as saying Vegeta can't walk on 2 feet lmao. Downplayers make things more complicated than it actually is. If I show a non-biased third party the image of Piccolo destroying the moon and ask them if he can moon-bust, they would say yes 99% of the time unless he's a complete moron. You people seem to have this fanatical hate of the idea of DBZ characters being so powerful when its just as stupid as people who think the DBverse solos all other fiction . Notice how you are quick to dismiss anything that makes them seem strong yet just as quick to accept anything that makes them seem weak. Its typical downplayer behavior.

They can bust the moon in dragon ball. That's all we know. We also know Krillin who is even stronger than them was afraid of Frieza being able to slice the planet and Recoome being able to make a big crater, both of which are far below moon level. Piccolo was also amazed at Nappa making a deep hole he couldn't see the bottom of.

[dragon boss z]

I'd argue that we don't know how strong or fast they are with or without logic, that's the magic of DB.
If asked how strong they are then Toriyama would just say "strong", or how fast they are then Toriyama would just say "fast". His sense of scale with specific character feats such as lifting strength or movement speed has always been ill defined, like he doesn't know himself and makes it up as he goes. I don't mind that because it would be way too tedious to properly measure character feats via Ki or power levels, being that feats almost never line up with a specific tier or number on a scouter. The undeterminable fluctuation of what can be accomplished with Ki is always what keeps the fights fresh. It'd be kinda boring if everyone at point A can lift 10 tons and move at mach 3 and then point B has everyone at 20 tons and mach 5, there'd be far less surprises and room for what can be achieved.
So yeah, DB is poorly measured but that in no way means its unimaginative or dull.

There should at least be some internal logic to the story, though. Tao Pai Pai who Goku already surpassed greatly in the RRA arc was expecting to travel 2,300 km on a pillar, kill Goku, and return in 30 minutes. That means his pillar was traveling at well over 10x the speed of sound. On the other hand, it takes Goku half a year to cross Snake Way on his first trip, his speed then would be a mere Mach 0.2, over 50x slower than Tao's pillar.

Well I guess Tao pai pai rides the pillar for a reason, it must make him really fast, lol. Tao pai pai was also almost killed by a hand grenade, but I assume some people would say he is moon level scaled off of Roshi even though he clearly isn't presented as being that strong.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I'd argue that we don't know how strong or fast they are with or without logic, that's the magic of DB.
If asked how strong they are then Toriyama would just say "strong", or how fast they are then Toriyama would just say "fast". His sense of scale with specific character feats such as lifting strength or movement speed has always been ill defined, like he doesn't know himself and makes it up as he goes. I don't mind that because it would be way too tedious to properly measure character feats via Ki or power levels, being that feats almost never line up with a specific tier or number on a scouter. The undeterminable fluctuation of what can be accomplished with Ki is always what keeps the fights fresh. It'd be kinda boring if everyone at point A can lift 10 tons and move at mach 3 and then point B has everyone at 20 tons and mach 5, there'd be far less surprises and room for what can be achieved.
So yeah, DB is poorly measured but that in no way means its unimaginative or dull.

There should at least be some internal logic to the story, though. Tao Pai Pai who Goku already surpassed greatly in the RRA arc was expecting to travel 2,300 km on a pillar, kill Goku, and return in 30 minutes. That means his pillar was traveling at well over 10x the speed of sound. On the other hand, it takes Goku half a year to cross Snake Way on his first trip, his speed then would be a mere Mach 0.2, over 50x slower than Tao's pillar.

Well I guess Tao pai pai rides the pillar for a reason, it must make him really fast, lol. Tao pai pai was also almost killed by a hand grenade, but I assume some people would say he is moon level scaled off of Roshi even though he clearly isn't presented as being that strong.

Well it's quite a different thing to toss a pillar and ride it compared to crossing Snake Way on foot.

If Tao tried to cross it by throwing his pillar, he wouldn't succeed. For one thing, it's a million km long, and I'm pretty sure he can't throw that far. Even if he tried to use a series of throws in succession, the path turns and meanders so much that he would have to be extremely lucky for the pillar to not land off the road and fall into Hell. So that method of travel really would not work in this situation.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well it's quite a different thing to toss a pillar and ride it compared to crossing Snake Way on foot.

If Tao tried to cross it by throwing his pillar, he wouldn't succeed. For one thing, it's a million km long, and I'm pretty sure he can't throw that far. Even if he tried to use a series of throws in succession, the path turns and meanders so much that he would have to be extremely lucky for the pillar to not land off the road and fall into Hell. So that method of travel really would not work in this situation.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for him to throw that pillar faster than he can run. For one, that pillar is obviously far more massive than his body, so the same amount of energy propelling his body should make him far faster than that pillar. Furthermore, that pillar would experience far more air resistance than Tao just running on his own since not only was he standing on it, it also had a flat surface. And Tao can constantly accelerate while running, unlike the pillar which would rapidly lose speed as it traveled meaning its initial speed was far greater than Mach 10. Tao should easily be able to jump to the other side of the planet or into orbit based on his pillar feat.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well it's quite a different thing to toss a pillar and ride it compared to crossing Snake Way on foot.

If Tao tried to cross it by throwing his pillar, he wouldn't succeed. For one thing, it's a million km long, and I'm pretty sure he can't throw that far. Even if he tried to use a series of throws in succession, the path turns and meanders so much that he would have to be extremely lucky for the pillar to not land off the road and fall into Hell. So that method of travel really would not work in this situation.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for him to throw that pillar faster than he can run. For one, that pillar is obviously far more massive than his body, so the same amount of energy propelling his body should make him far faster than that pillar. Furthermore, that pillar would experience far more air resistance than Tao just running on his own since not only was he standing on it, it also had a flat surface. And Tao can constantly accelerate while running, unlike the pillar which would rapidly lose speed as it traveled meaning its initial speed was far greater than Mach 10. Tao should easily be able to jump to the other side of the planet or into orbit based on his pillar feat.

Well you have to consider that there are obstacles on the ground that would slow him down. The pillar can go in a straight path.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Well it's quite a different thing to toss a pillar and ride it compared to crossing Snake Way on foot.

If Tao tried to cross it by throwing his pillar, he wouldn't succeed. For one thing, it's a million km long, and I'm pretty sure he can't throw that far. Even if he tried to use a series of throws in succession, the path turns and meanders so much that he would have to be extremely lucky for the pillar to not land off the road and fall into Hell. So that method of travel really would not work in this situation.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for him to throw that pillar faster than he can run. For one, that pillar is obviously far more massive than his body, so the same amount of energy propelling his body should make him far faster than that pillar. Furthermore, that pillar would experience far more air resistance than Tao just running on his own since not only was he standing on it, it also had a flat surface. And Tao can constantly accelerate while running, unlike the pillar which would rapidly lose speed as it traveled meaning its initial speed was far greater than Mach 10. Tao should easily be able to jump to the other side of the planet or into orbit based on his pillar feat.

Well you have to consider that there are obstacles on the ground that would slow him down. The pillar can go in a straight path.

Tao could easily make the jump since leg muscles put out far more power than arm muscles.

[theherodjl]

Tao could easily make the jump since leg muscles put out far more power than arm muscles.

Maybe Tao is able to transfer his Ki into whatever object he rides on? It makes sense since he cannot levitate when his brother's school teaches Bukujutsu so he developed his own way of doing it, I can't see him jumping hundreds of miles otherwise.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Tao could easily make the jump since leg muscles put out far more power than arm muscles.

Maybe Tao is able to transfer his Ki into whatever object he rides on? It makes sense since he cannot levitate when his brother's school teaches Bukujutsu so he developed his own way of doing it, I can't see him jumping hundreds of miles otherwise.

There's nothing really suggesting that, it's just another example of DB characters displaying hypersonic to relativistic speeds that isn't acknowledged by the author.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No, Beerus said ssj Goku was enough to beat Frieza. People overlooked that because the orignal time the episode aired it was mistranslated. The real translation was "I can see how you beat Frieza now, but Frieza is probably about the best you can do".

To be fair, Beerus' quote kind of imply Shin > SSJ Goku here despite a far, far weaker Goku threatened to one shot Shin so either way it's inconsistent.

Piccolo and Roshi moon-busting is acknowledged in the Daizenshuu. That means its a valid feat whether you like it or not.

So i guess Hulk Roshi > Piccolo Daimao since Daimao's best blast only destroyed a City?

Piccolo's moon busting is definitely a valid one, though.

[dbgtFO]

No, Beerus said ssj Goku was enough to beat Frieza. People overlooked that because the orignal time the episode aired it was mistranslated. The real translation was "I can see how you beat Frieza now, but Frieza is probably about the best you can do".

To be fair, Beerus' quote kind of imply Shin > SSJ Goku here despite a far, far weaker Goku threatened to one shot Shin so either way it's inconsistent.

Shin's been nerfed. At this point I wonder, if Toriyama even considers him stronger than first form Freeza(pre RoF)

[Polyphase Avatron]

Tao could easily make the jump since leg muscles put out far more power than arm muscles.

Maybe Tao is able to transfer his Ki into whatever object he rides on? It makes sense since he cannot levitate when his brother's school teaches Bukujutsu so he developed his own way of doing it, I can't see him jumping hundreds of miles otherwise.

There's nothing really suggesting that, it's just another example of DB characters displaying hypersonic to relativistic speeds that isn't acknowledged by the author.

I guess it is kind of a rule of cool thing unless you want to invoke special explanations like that one.

[theherodjl]

I guess it is kind of a rule of cool thing unless you want to invoke special explanations like that one.

I thought it could work. If Tao was as strong as fans calculate then he should just run or jump everywhere like Hulk or early renditions of Superman, not actually needing the pillar to demonstrate his strength. Just choosing to use it because...he likes to show off? Or the alternative in that he is using some kind of technique to do so, opting to not use his older brother's Bukujutsu technique to differentiate himself as an assassin.

Aw f*ck it, Toriyama probably doesn't even know. I'm firing up neurons on account of his laziness.

[dragon boss z]

Well it's quite a different thing to toss a pillar and ride it compared to crossing Snake Way on foot.

If Tao tried to cross it by throwing his pillar, he wouldn't succeed. For one thing, it's a million km long, and I'm pretty sure he can't throw that far. Even if he tried to use a series of throws in succession, the path turns and meanders so much that he would have to be extremely lucky for the pillar to not land off the road and fall into Hell. So that method of travel really would not work in this situation.

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for him to throw that pillar faster than he can run. For one, that pillar is obviously far more massive than his body, so the same amount of energy propelling his body should make him far faster than that pillar. Furthermore, that pillar would experience far more air resistance than Tao just running on his own since not only was he standing on it, it also had a flat surface. And Tao can constantly accelerate while running, unlike the pillar which would rapidly lose speed as it traveled meaning its initial speed was far greater than Mach 10. Tao should easily be able to jump to the other side of the planet or into orbit based on his pillar feat.

lets face it, it's a gag feat.

To be fair, Beerus' quote kind of imply Shin > SSJ Goku here despite a far, far weaker Goku threatened to one shot Shin so either way it's inconsistent.

Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if the writers forgot how strong Shin was. All they do is treat him like weak trash.

No, Beerus said ssj Goku was enough to beat Frieza. People overlooked that because the orignal time the episode aired it was mistranslated. The real translation was "I can see how you beat Frieza now, but Frieza is probably about the best you can do".

To be fair, Beerus' quote kind of imply Shin > SSJ Goku here despite a far, far weaker Goku threatened to one shot Shin so either way it's inconsistent.

Shin's been nerfed. At this point I wonder, if Toriyama even considers him stronger than first form Freeza(pre RoF)

Exactly, lol.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I just wanna point out that Kuririn and Roshi moved so fast the 21st Budokai crowd couldn't see them, but the cameras could track Goku vs Cell just fine.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I just wanna point out that Kuririn and Roshi moved so fast the 21st Budokai crowd couldn't see them, but the cameras could track Goku vs Cell just fine.

I thought the cameraman said that he couldn't move the camera fast enough to track them.