Super's feats and DBZ's feats

[theherodjl]

I don't care about Toei's script.
Most characters are faster than light in the original manga series.

https://youtu.be/oD9UazyCxtM

Except they're not, Toei's script is final and holds priority over a million fan theories. DBZ's feats reached light speed for only two outlier examples and that's how its going to stay.

If something happens more than once then its not an outlier. Simple logic.

If the feats are the same thing being done only one more time throughout the series then it still is an outlier.

[STH]

Sorry but, I disagree. This isn't Toei's series. Toei is only an animation studio.

Sorry but it IS Toei's series. They've animated DB since the 1980s and their work has been personally approved of by Akira Toriyama many, many times. Its purely a fanon perspective to think that Toei's penmanship is irrelevant over how fans might interpret the story to go. You don't get to downplay Toei's role when they're mostly responsible for the distribution and success of DB, its like saying that DC comics shouldn't get credit for the success of Superman when Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster invented the character.

Anime are made to promote the original work, that's all.

[theherodjl]

Sorry but, I disagree. This isn't Toei's series. Toei is only an animation studio.

Sorry but it IS Toei's series. They've animated DB since the 1980s and their work has been personally approved of by Akira Toriyama many, many times. Its purely a fanon perspective to think that Toei's penmanship is irrelevant over how fans might interpret the story to go. You don't get to downplay Toei's role when they're mostly responsible for the distribution and success of DB, its like saying that DC comics shouldn't get credit for the success of Superman when Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster invented the character.

Animes are made to promote the original work, that's all.

And the original creator approved of their work, never expressing a conflict of interest over their depiction of events.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The speed feats on Dragon Ball are just too inconsistent, they're even worse than the lifting ones. I mean, BoZ Piccolo's casual blast reaches the moon in a panel but Post Kaio Goku takes one or two days to cross the snake way at his best.

But the busting feats are pretty consistent, though.

Pretty much. I mean you'd figure if they were faster than light then the Taiyo-ken technique would never be a threat since they could just outrun the light. I also have a feeling that the writers don't really understand how fast certain speeds are, such as when they made it a point to mention that Dyspo had surpassed the speed of sound and the speed of light - in this context, the former is completely redundant and unnecessary to state. It would be like someone saying that they have a weapon that is more powerful than both a spitball and a nuke.

Super speed in fiction usually isn't even portrayed to make much sense anyway. Someone like the Flash should never be hit by anyone or anything slower than the speed of light but he is. And in some comics he can calculate faster than a supercomputer but in others he's incompetent at figuring out obvious clues. And then when you have high speed fights in most series you have characters constantly disappearing from each others' sight and reappearing behind each other, which shouldn't be possible if their speeds are at all close - and if you're fast enough to completely evade someone's vision and get behind them before they even realize it, why not just attack them instead?

Generally the most realistic way to depict super speed in fiction is to use bullet time like the Matrix, where a character appears to be moving at normal speed but everything else is slowed down, but even that often has inconsistencies.

Let's not even get into how so many of these things make no sense from a scientific standpoint (for example anyone running faster than Mach 33 or so should launch themselves into orbit every time their feet push off the ground).

[kn83]

2. Goku didn't move at full speed the first time he traveled across Snake Way in either the manga or anime. He mostly ran and even made a few stops here and there. http://i.imgur.com/drNOUre.png
http://cdn.mangaeden.com/mangasimg/c2/c ... 777ac9.jpg
The speed it took for Goku to fly back however is unclear. King Kai estimated that it would take 2 days but when Goku arrived back on Earth not even a few hours had past. Here is a detailed analyzes of speed in the manga :http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51219778

Screw attack are the ones who said it took Goku 24 hours if I remember correctly.

3. A V-jump article with Toriyama confirmed that Goku flew halfway across Namek in less than a second to reach Frieza and the others.:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -13503.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-3039855
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-3039856
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-3039857
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-3039858

Toriyama didn't write that article. You just made that up.
And in the scan you just posted Goku said "they're rearby" lmao.

To claim Goku only flew across a few islands is pure nonsense. Frieza and the Z-crew didn't even just fight on just one island, they were moving around several of them while Goku was recovering. So the assumption that they didn't move that far away from the ship is baseless.

Do you not read everything I post? The island Dende died on was the one Goku flew to. That's a fact. Both his start and end points are close enough to see Parunga. This is a fact. It's right in the manga and anime and Goku flat out says they are close by. It is pure nonsense to say he was on the other side of the planet.

4. Just so you know, travel speed and combat speed are not the same thing. Even DC and Marvel comics points out the difference multiple times.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... perman.jpg

I know

The fact that base Goku could fly halfway across Namek in about one second proves that travel speed in DBZ is FTL since Namek arc.

Except he didn't

The fact that Roshi, 23th TB Goku and BOZ Piccolo can moon-bust in a few seconds proves that combat speed in the series is FTL since at least the 23th Tenkaichi arc.

Outliers

Author/guide statements>=feats>>>>>>headcanon.

Manga>anime>>>>>magazine

5. About the universe and planets.....
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/d ... s-1736931/
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... 675-latest

Remember, "ginga" in Japanese is both plural and singular.

That just says the dragon ball universe isn't 4 galaxies

6. Show me evidence of why Seth's and Chuck's claims are wrong. Claims without proof can be dismissed without proof. Seth uses proof from the guides as well as feats and statements from the series itself. What do you have?

I already gave one example. Another example is him saying base Buu saga Goku is stronger than Frieza. Or bleach and Naruto characters are planet level.

1.The V-jump scan was published Jump magazine itself, that makes it an official source whether you like it or not. Likewise, if a Batman comic is published by DC, then it is canon useless stated otherwise.

2. He said they were "not far". That's relative to a person's travel time. If you were taking a plane from Chicago to New York such a distance wouldn't be "far" relative to a plane's travel speed. Either way, It is fallacious to assume they where only on island the entire fight when they is shown destroying the islands they were fighting on:
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/94 ... _super.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d4mScw8lHlk/U ... 5B1%5D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6MaXQcy.png


As you can see above, Frieza wasn't even on the same island when he killed Dende. So its ridiculous to assume they were in the same spot the entire time.

3. If a feat happens more than once then it can't be argued to be outlier no matter how illogical you think they are. Denying repeated feats just because you don't like them is an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. We are shown moon-busting twice in the manga, these were also talked about in the Daizenshuu. Here a piece from the Daizenshuu about 23th TB Goku being a moon-buster: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -36088.png
You have to be absolute retarded to say they can't moon bust when both visual and authorial evidence says otherwise. Claiming that the moon in DB is smaller or what-not is pure headcanon. Author/guide statements>=Feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headcanon

4. If PuiPui and Yakon were implied to be stronger than Frieza (by Supreme Kai, who didn't take Frieza seriously but was cautious of those 2) then the base adult saiyans in the Buu saga are definitely above Frieza. Either way its an irrelevant now as base Goku was shown to be stronger than final form Frieza in ROF.

5. If kid Goku (PL 120) in the Piccolo arc was faster than lightning (as he was literally training for that on Kami's lookout) then DB characters would only need to be at least 3x superior to that Goku to be FTL. http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_ ... tml?163524 Its simple loic. There is no way you can no one in DBZ is at least 3 to 3000 times better than kid Goku.

[kn83]

Except they're not, Toei's script is final and holds priority over a million fan theories. DBZ's feats reached light speed for only two outlier examples and that's how its going to stay.

If something happens more than once then its not an outlier. Simple logic.

If the feats are the same thing being done only one more time throughout the series then it still is an outlier.

Your appealing to incredulity. "I don't like it" is not a sound argument. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Outlier

A feat is only an outlier if it happens only once and highly contradicts the rest of the story. Most DB speed and busting feats don't qualify as outliers by this standard. For example, Roshi blowing up the moon can be argued to be an outlier (even Seth The Programmer says this) since King Piccolo is canonically stronger yet is stated to be only a city-buster. However, there is no way you can say 23TB Goku and BOZ Piccolo moon-busting are outliers since characters after them are stated/shown to have greater strength.

[theherodjl]

If something happens more than once then its not an outlier. Simple logic.

If the feats are the same thing being done only one more time throughout the series then it still is an outlier.

Your appealing to incredulity. "I don't like it" is not a sound argument. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Outlier

A feat is only an outlier if it happens only once and highly contradicts the rest of the story. Most DB speed and busting feats don't qualify as outliers by this standard. For example, Roshi blowing up the moon can be argued to be an outlier (even Seth The Programmer says this) since King Piccolo canonically stronger yet is stated to be only a city-buster. However, there is no way you can say 23TB Goku and BOZ Piccolo moon-busting are outliers since characters after them are stated/shown to have greater strength.

Except any other instance of characters launching ki blasts attacks across the planet or skyward aren't light speed or anything close to it, as if to say that lightspeed Ki blasts only served as the plot device for Roshi & Piccolo needing the moon to be gone. They're both an example of the outlier. Simply telling me "I don't agree with your assessment so I'll post a link in a condescending manner and split hairs until you agree with me" is a petty and tedious way to debate.

[kn83]

If the feats are the same thing being done only one more time throughout the series then it still is an outlier.

Your appealing to incredulity. "I don't like it" is not a sound argument. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Outlier

A feat is only an outlier if it happens only once and highly contradicts the rest of the story. Most DB speed and busting feats don't qualify as outliers by this standard. For example, Roshi blowing up the moon can be argued to be an outlier (even Seth The Programmer says this) since King Piccolo canonically stronger yet is stated to be only a city-buster. However, there is no way you can say 23TB Goku and BOZ Piccolo moon-busting are outliers since characters after them are stated/shown to have greater strength.

Except any other instance of characters launching ki blasts attacks across the planet or skyward aren't light speed or anything close to it, as if to say that lightspeed Ki blasts only served as the plot device for Roshi & Piccolo needing the moon to be gone. They're both an example of the outlier. Simply telling me "I don't agree with your assessment so I'll post a link in a condescending manner and split hairs until you agree with me" is a petty and tedious way to debate.

Showing links to provide arguments is a valid way to debate, it isn't condescending just because you don't agree.

We are never given a time-frame or number most of time when characters shoot ki blasts. So to assume those blast aren't FTL is pure headcanon/incredulity bias. You are trying to rationalize away a repeated feat that isn't even regarded as impressive in the DBverse. You and other downplayers sound like y.e. creationist after being shown fossils of dinosaurs lmao.

As I've said several times, if a feat happens more than once, is officially acknowledged (ex. Daizenshuu and other guides) and/or is relevant to the plot (ex. stopping the great apes) then there is no possible way you can dismiss it as an outlier. If you do then you could deny any feat for any work of fiction ever, which is retarded.

[Darkprince410]

1.The V-jump scan was published Jump magazine itself, that makes it an official source whether you like it or not. Likewise, if a Batman comic is published by DC, then it is canon useless stated otherwise.

2. He said they were "not far". That's relative to a person's travel time. If you were taking a plane from Chicago to New York such a distance wouldn't be "far" relative to a plane's travel speed. Either way, It is fallacious to assume they where only on island the entire fight when they is shown destroying the islands they were fighting on:
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/94 ... _super.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d4mScw8lHlk/U ... 5B1%5D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6MaXQcy.png


As you can see above, Frieza wasn't even on the same island when he killed Dende. So its ridiculous to assume they were in the same spot the entire time.

3. If a feat happens more than once then it can't be argued to be outlier no matter how illogical you think they are. Denying repeated feats just because you don't like them is an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. We are shown moon-busting twice in the manga, these were also talked about in the Daizenshuu. Here a piece from the Daizenshuu about 23th TB Goku being a moon-buster: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -36088.png
You have to be absolute retarded to say they can't moon bust when both visual and authorial evidence says otherwise. Claiming that the moon in DB is smaller or what-not is pure headcanon. Author/guide statements>=Feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headcanon

4. If PuiPui and Yakon were implied to be stronger than Frieza (by Supreme Kai, who didn't take Frieza seriously but was cautious of those 2) then the base adult saiyans in the Buu saga are definitely above Frieza. Either way its an irrelevant now as base Goku was shown to be stronger than final form Frieza in ROF.

5. If kid Goku (PL 120) in the Piccolo arc was faster than lightning (as he was literally training for that on Kami's lookout) then DB characters would only need to be at least 3x superior to that Goku to be FTL. http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_ ... tml?163524 Its simple loic. There is no way you can no one in DBZ is at least 3 to 3000 times better than kid Goku.

1) That isn't from a V-Jump publication. As mentioned earlier, that is from the back cover of volume #10 of Viz's Dragon Ball manga release. That blurb of things happening on the other side of the planet and Goku racing there was something that Viz's staff created. Toriyama and Shueisha weren't responsible for it at all.

2) As shown, the battle still remained close enough to where Freeza and Goku could see Polunga without issue when they were fighting one another. Regardless of whether they were remaining on the same island or not, they were still close to the island that Polunga was summoned on.

3) This is true, but only when those feats are themselves impossible to counter. We have no clear frame of reference for just how long those blasts actually took to get from the Earth to the Moon, and when we have other blasts well later on be shown to take a considerable amount of time to traverse some distance, then we have to conclude that there is some fallacy in the earlier "feats".

4) There's strong evidence that none of Babi-di's men have a ki that can be detected by any real means. Spopovitch was established to have no life energy that Goku could detect, Goku needed to use air currents to find Yakon, and Goku and Vegeta both needed to go by Dabra's movements to try and guess how strong he was. There's nothing mentioned to suggest that they had ki that could be detected, and thus Kaioushin's fear isn't related to what he can sense from them, but just going off of reputation. Hell, he thought Pui Pui was a serious threat after having sensed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan only minutes before. That alone should give some indicator as to his fears not being based on what he could sense from them.

5) It's clear Popo's teaching Goku to be "as fast as lightning" was to be taken in a metaphorical sense, as he's trying to teach him to not be wasteful in his movements and actions. Quiet stances and quick movements are better than excessively wasteful actions energy wise.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's clear these guys don't care at all about how strong the characters are supposed to be, if the creators don't give a damn why should we?

[theherodjl]

Showing links to provide arguments is a valid way to debate, it isn't condescending just because you don't agree.

We are never given a time-frame or number most of time when characters shoot ki blasts. So to assume those blast aren't FTL is pure headcanon/incredulity bias. You are trying to rationalize away a repeated feat that isn't even regarded as impressive in the DBverse. You and other downplayers sound like y.e. creationist after being shown fossils of dinosaurs lmao.

As I've said several times, if a feat happens more than once, is officially acknowledged (ex. Daizenshuu and other guides) and/or is relevant to the plot (ex. stopping the great apes) then there is no possible way you can dismiss it as an outlier. If you do then you could deny any feat for any work of fiction ever, which is retarded.

It is pretty condescending to post the definition of something that isn't being misunderstood, as if to say that because the other person isn't debating to your standards then that person needs to be the reminded of the obvious. That's very petty.

We are also never given any measurable time frame period for fights or Ki blasts prior to DBS, let alone the implication that attacks are occurring in lightspeed or beyond lightspeed time. It is nothing but fanon or fan-wishing that the characters are at this exact tier of power on some comparable scale, its bias to think otherwise.
This feat only happened two times,that still counts as them being an outlier if it cannot be replicated for anything else involving a moon.

To simp!y summarize the oppositions viewpoint with a fallacy that because the guides recognized some outlier happening only one more time ever and that this is a denial of general fiction's mechanics is a piss poor argument. By your logic I can just say that your argument is retarded and walk away, that doesn't make it true or intellectually significant even if I was right to an extent or completely right.
Don't be one of those guys.

[dragon boss z]

1.The V-jump scan was published Jump magazine itself, that makes it an official source whether you like it or not. Likewise, if a Batman comic is published by DC, then it is canon useless stated otherwise.

Ok first off that isn't even a V-jump scan.

Second off, official does not mean canon. For example the Star Wars EU books were all official, but they weren't considered canon. Dragon ball GT is official, but not canon.
V-jump even said Cooler's power level was 475 million, Broly 1.4 billion, and ssj Gogeta 2.5 billion. So if you think everything in V-jump is canon you think Cooler is 1/2 of Broly and 1/4 of Gogeta in strength...

2. He said they were "not far". That's relative to a person's travel time. If you were taking a plane from Chicago to New York such a distance wouldn't be "far" relative to a plane's travel speed. Either way, It is fallacious to assume they where only on island the entire fight when they is shown destroying the islands they were fighting on:
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/94 ... _super.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d4mScw8lHlk/U ... 5B1%5D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6MaXQcy.png

The island Dende was killed on is the one Goku traveled to. This is a fact. And the fact you posted a scan of Goku and Frieza destroying an island like that has anything to do with Goku arriving there when he is oblivious already there at that point really makes me question you...

As you can see above, Frieza wasn't even on the same island when he killed Dende. So its ridiculous to assume they were in the same spot the entire time.

Wow this is insane. It's like you haven't actually read the manga and just picking out random scans. Right after he shoots Dende from another island he comes right tot he island they are standing on. He then fights Vegeta while everyone else stays on the same island, then he knocks Vegeta back to the same island where Goku shows up. Please just go and read the manga, though I'm not sure if you will comprehend what is happening in it...

3. If a feat happens more than once then it can't be argued to be outlier no matter how illogical you think they are.

Then you just don't know what an outlier is. Also the feats can be legitimate and still be oultiers. For example if a human is 8 feet tall, that is an oultier But that doesn't mean he isn't real.

Denying repeated feats just because you don't like them is an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. We are shown moon-busting twice in the manga, these were also talked about in the Daizenshuu. Here a piece from the Daizenshuu about 23th TB Goku being a moon-buster: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -36088.png
You have to be absolute retarded to say they can't moon bust when both visual and authorial evidence says otherwise. Claiming that the moon in DB is smaller or what-not is pure headcanon. Author/guide statements>=Feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headcanon

There is plenty of evidence of them being less than moon level. Far more than them being moon level. And Arale is technically in the same universe as dragon ball and the moon in Dr. Slump looks really small.





As well as in dragon ball



So I would agree with you if I was pulling this out of nowhere, but the fact is Toriyama constantly makes the moon look small.

4. If PuiPui and Yakon were implied to be stronger than Frieza (by Supreme Kai, who didn't take Frieza seriously but was cautious of those 2) then the base adult saiyans in the Buu saga are definitely above Frieza. Either way its an irrelevant now as base Goku was shown to be stronger than final form Frieza in ROF.

Yakkon and definitely Pui Pui aren't stronger than Frieza. And of course RoF base Goku is stronger than Frieza. He got a big boost from the SSG ritual and Whis training.

5. If kid Goku (PL 120) in the Piccolo arc was faster than lightning (as he was literally training for that on Kami's lookout) then DB characters would only need to be at least 3x superior to that Goku to be FTL. http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_ ... tml?163524 Its simple loic. There is no way you can no one in DBZ is at least 3 to 3000 times better than kid Goku.

You are talking about the second stroke of lighting. The first stroke (the one they are talking about) isn't even close to light speed.

[STH]

Sorry but it IS Toei's series. They've animated DB since the 1980s and their work has been personally approved of by Akira Toriyama many, many times. Its purely a fanon perspective to think that Toei's penmanship is irrelevant over how fans might interpret the story to go. You don't get to downplay Toei's role when they're mostly responsible for the distribution and success of DB, its like saying that DC comics shouldn't get credit for the success of Superman when Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster invented the character.

Animes are made to promote the original work, that's all.

And the original creator approved of their work, never expressing a conflict of interest over their depiction of events.

And any events that happen in anime will not exist in the manga's (original) timeline.
Filler episodes, filler scenes, extra (filler) dialogues etc. These are canon for ANIME.
But they won't exist in the original timeline.

For example;
https://youtu.be/F444p2c9vMY

RoF Manga:
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-64202

RoF Movie:
https://youtu.be/NO5UZQXj7nI

DBS Rof Arc:
https://youtu.be/qVWz4kDww_w

Apparently, Akira-san does not care about the animation studio's story elements

[buutenks]

The only consistent thing in DBZ is they are planet busters.

The ssg universal thing comes from base Goku one punching that ball of ki that was stated to be able to destroy the universe. Not from the shockwaves. Plus then we got Black Rose cutting space, Vegeta blowing up the ROST, Goku destroying Hit's parallel world. Zamasu becoming one with the universe. GoDs being stated to be universe destroyers, Goku shaking the world of the void. Kefla saying she can one shot a universe. Aniraza punching so hard he was warping spacetime.

While in Z they were planet busters. In Super they are universe busters.

[theherodjl]

Animes are made to promote the original work, that's all.

And the original creator approved of their work, never expressing a conflict of interest over their depiction of events.

And any events that happen in anime will not exist in the manga's (original) timeline.
Filler episodes, filler scenes, extra (filler) dialogues etc. These are canon for ANIME.
But they won't exist in the original timeline.

For example;
https://youtu.be/F444p2c9vMY

RoF Manga:
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-64202

RoF Movie:
https://youtu.be/NO5UZQXj7nI

DBS Rof Arc:
https://youtu.be/qVWz4kDww_w

Apparently, Akira-san does not care about the animation studio's story elements

And establishing the existing works of Toei as a valid canon does what to negate Toei's involvement & additional authorship of the the DB story?
Toriyama aided in the design of the anime himself for filler, the movies, and GT. I guess we can conclude that Toriyama DOES care about the animation studio's story elements.

[Polyphase Avatron]

The only consistent thing in DBZ is they are planet busters.

The ssg universal thing comes from base Goku one punching that ball of ki that was stated to be able to destroy the universe. Not from the shockwaves. Plus then we got Black Rose cutting space, Vegeta blowing up the ROST, Goku destroying Hit's parallel world. Zamasu becoming one with the universe. GoDs being stated to be universe destroyers, Goku shaking the world of the void. Kefla saying she can one shot a universe. Aniraza punching so hard he was warping spacetime.

While in Z they were planet busters. In Super they are universe busters.

I would argue that destroying dimensions and warping space on a smaller scale is less than a universe. So Goku and Beerus' shockwaves are more impressive than anything Black, Vegeta, or Hit ever did.

[kn83]

Showing links to provide arguments is a valid way to debate, it isn't condescending just because you don't agree.

We are never given a time-frame or number most of time when characters shoot ki blasts. So to assume those blast aren't FTL is pure headcanon/incredulity bias. You are trying to rationalize away a repeated feat that isn't even regarded as impressive in the DBverse. You and other downplayers sound like y.e. creationist after being shown fossils of dinosaurs lmao.

As I've said several times, if a feat happens more than once, is officially acknowledged (ex. Daizenshuu and other guides) and/or is relevant to the plot (ex. stopping the great apes) then there is no possible way you can dismiss it as an outlier. If you do then you could deny any feat for any work of fiction ever, which is retarded.

It is pretty condescending to post the definition of something that isn't being misunderstood, as if to say that because the other person isn't debating to your standards then that person needs to be the reminded of the obvious. That's very petty.

We are also never given any measurable time frame period for fights or Ki blasts prior to DBS, let alone the implication that attacks are occurring in lightspeed or beyond lightspeed time. It is nothing but fanon or fan-wishing that the characters are at this exact tier of power on some comparable scale, its bias to think otherwise.
This feat only happened two times,that still counts as them being an outlier if it cannot be replicated for anything else involving a moon.

To simp!y summarize the oppositions viewpoint with a fallacy that because the guides recognized some outlier happening only one more time ever and that this is a denial of general fiction's mechanics is a piss poor argument. By your logic I can just say that your argument is retarded and walk away, that doesn't make it true or intellectually significant even if I was right to an extent or completely right.
Don't be one of those guys.

Jesus Christ its like arguing with a brick wall.

1. This is not my personal standards, this is basic logic. If it seems condescending to you then that's your problem, not mine.

2. The fact that we don't have any measurable time frame period for fights or Ki blasts prior to DBS means you can't assume they aren't lightpseed either. To argue that they aren't on that level based on this is an Argument for Ignorance fallacy and exposes you as a downplayer.

3. You keep twisting the definition of an outlier to suit your biases. Moon busting happened more than once, both times were relevant to the plot, so you can't dismiss it as an outlier just because you don't like it. YOUR the biased one, I'm simply apply the same rules of logic to any fictional verse.

4. If Toriyama, Toyotaro or some official guide recognizes an event or feat then it is an official thing, not an outlier. Their views have more weight than any fanwank or downplayer like yourself. If Toriyama were to come out of nowhere an say Krillin is stronger than Beerus then so be it, its his story, his word so its a fact of the verse.

[kn83]

1.The V-jump scan was published Jump magazine itself, that makes it an official source whether you like it or not. Likewise, if a Batman comic is published by DC, then it is canon useless stated otherwise.

Ok first off that isn't even a V-jump scan.

Second off, official does not mean canon. For example the Star Wars EU books were all official, but they weren't considered canon. Dragon ball GT is official, but not canon.
V-jump even said Cooler's power level was 475 million, Broly 1.4 billion, and ssj Gogeta 2.5 billion. So if you think everything in V-jump is canon you think Cooler is 1/2 of Broly and 1/4 of Gogeta in strength...

2. He said they were "not far". That's relative to a person's travel time. If you were taking a plane from Chicago to New York such a distance wouldn't be "far" relative to a plane's travel speed. Either way, It is fallacious to assume they where only on island the entire fight when they is shown destroying the islands they were fighting on:
http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/94 ... _super.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-d4mScw8lHlk/U ... 5B1%5D.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6MaXQcy.png

The island Dende was killed on is the one Goku traveled to. This is a fact. And the fact you posted a scan of Goku and Frieza destroying an island like that has anything to do with Goku arriving there when he is oblivious already there at that point really makes me question you...

As you can see above, Frieza wasn't even on the same island when he killed Dende. So its ridiculous to assume they were in the same spot the entire time.

Wow this is insane. It's like you haven't actually read the manga and just picking out random scans. Right after he shoots Dende from another island he comes right tot he island they are standing on. He then fights Vegeta while everyone else stays on the same island, then he knocks Vegeta back to the same island where Goku shows up. Please just go and read the manga, though I'm not sure if you will comprehend what is happening in it...

3. If a feat happens more than once then it can't be argued to be outlier no matter how illogical you think they are.

Then you just don't know what an outlier is. Also the feats can be legitimate and still be oultiers. For example if a human is 8 feet tall, that is an oultier But that doesn't mean he isn't real.

Denying repeated feats just because you don't like them is an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. We are shown moon-busting twice in the manga, these were also talked about in the Daizenshuu. Here a piece from the Daizenshuu about 23th TB Goku being a moon-buster: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... -36088.png
You have to be absolute retarded to say they can't moon bust when both visual and authorial evidence says otherwise. Claiming that the moon in DB is smaller or what-not is pure headcanon. Author/guide statements>=Feats>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>headcanon

There is plenty of evidence of them being less than moon level. Far more than them being moon level. And Arale is technically in the same universe as dragon ball and the moon in Dr. Slump looks really small.





As well as in dragon ball



So I would agree with you if I was pulling this out of nowhere, but the fact is Toriyama constantly makes the moon look small.

4. If PuiPui and Yakon were implied to be stronger than Frieza (by Supreme Kai, who didn't take Frieza seriously but was cautious of those 2) then the base adult saiyans in the Buu saga are definitely above Frieza. Either way its an irrelevant now as base Goku was shown to be stronger than final form Frieza in ROF.

Yakkon and definitely Pui Pui aren't stronger than Frieza. And of course RoF base Goku is stronger than Frieza. He got a big boost from the SSG ritual and Whis training.

5. If kid Goku (PL 120) in the Piccolo arc was faster than lightning (as he was literally training for that on Kami's lookout) then DB characters would only need to be at least 3x superior to that Goku to be FTL. http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_ ... tml?163524 Its simple loic. There is no way you can no one in DBZ is at least 3 to 3000 times better than kid Goku.

You are talking about the second stroke of lighting. The first stroke (the one they are talking about) isn't even close to light speed.

1. If an official guide centers or covers canon material then it is canon itself. You can't dismiss it then just because you don't like it. I don't like the whole S-cells idea but I'm not going to say it isn't canon just because of that, its not my say so. No one is debating GT or the movies so why are you bringing to them up? If Toriyama were to one day say that Krillin is stronger then Whis then it is true for the series. You can't deny or rationalize away official statements on your whims.

2. Earlier in this thread you tried to argue that Frieza and the Z-crew were fighting in the same area the whole time. I point out there is no way that can be so if Frieza keeps destroying the islands they're on and if they keep moving to different ones. If Goku landed on the same island as were Dende died then were is Dende's body? They didn't bury him nor take it with them. YOUR the one with poor reading comprehension.

3. There are way too many flaws with this argument

A) Using images of the moon that aren't even drawn to scale to argue that it is smaller than in reality is the height of stupidity.
B) Using gag feats from a gag character to scale with non-gag feats from non-gags characters is retarded. Kid Goku in the earliest chapters once literality broke the fourth walls in the manga. Does that make him a transfictional buster lmao? Gag feats are real outliers because they are not meant to be taken narratively serious, unlike Roshi and especially Piccolo moon-busting which was inherent to the plot of a non-gag story, so you can't dismiss those as outliers while excepting Arale.
C) None of the guides or interviews stated or imply that the moon is smaller (or larger) than in reality anyway. So to assume it is smaller is an appeal to ignorance fallacy and your baseless headcanon.

4. If the Supreme Kai (who can kill Frieza in one blow) was intimidated by PuiPui and Yakon then those two are definitely stronger than Frieza. The idea that its impossible for base saiyans (pre-Super) to surpass Frieza is pure headcanon. Don't even bother bringing up Beerus comments. He also said that he didn't think SSJ Goku could beat Frieza in that same scene (despite both the viewers and Beerus himself seeing SSJ Goku beat Frieza through Whis's orb) which EVERYONE overlooks for some reason. If your going to ignore that line then you might as well ignore his comment about base Goku as well.

5. If you are talking about the first stroke then anyone with a PL of at least 366,000 (ignoring the fact that PLs are not liner but exponential) should be FTL. That's first form Frieza and above. The speed of light is 671 million mph, the first stroke of lighting is 220,000 mph. Goku was dodging lighting at Kami's lookout with a PL of 120. If you do the math then you'll realize that Seth the Programmer was right. And don't give that "powerlevels are bullshit" nonsense, Toriyama himself never said that neither has Toyotaro nor anyone in Toei or Jump.

6. To argue that BOZ Piccolo or even Roshi can't moon-bust is just as retarded as saying Vegeta can't walk on 2 feet lmao. Downplayers make things more complicated than it actually is. If I show a non-biased third party the image of Piccolo destroying the moon and ask them if he can moon-bust, they would say yes 99% of the time unless he's a complete moron. You people seem to have this fanatical hate of the idea of DBZ characters being so powerful when its just as stupid as people who think the DBverse solos all other fiction . Notice how you are quick to dismiss anything that makes them seem strong yet just as quick to accept anything that makes them seem weak. Its typical downplayer behavior.

[theherodjl]

Jesus Christ its like arguing with a brick wall.

1. This is not my personal standards, this is basic logic. If it seems condescending to you then that's your problem, not mine.

2. The fact that we don't have any measurable time frame period for fights or Ki blasts prior to DBS means you can't assume they aren't lightpseed either. To argue that they aren't on that level based on this is an Argument for Ignorance fallacy and exposes you as a downplayer.

3. You keep twisting the definition of an outlier to suit your biases. Moon busting happened more than once, both times were relevant to the plot, so you can't dismiss it as an outlier just because you don't like it. YOUR the biased one, I'm simply apply the same rules of logic to any fictional verse.

4. If Toriyama, Toyotaro or some official guide recognizes an event or feat then it is an official thing, not an outlier. Their views have more weight than any fanwank or downplayer like yourself. If Toriyama were to come out of nowhere an say Krillin is stronger than Beerus then so be it, its his story, his word so its a fact of the verse.

Why? Because no one on this thread is letting you win the argument so you're mad that nobody else is backing you up?

1. Its your own opinion, rhetoric, viewpoint, or personal belief. Its trollish as hell to consider your argument worthy of being labeled 'basic logic' and anyone else's as "retarded" or "ignorance", all because you want to be the one who is making the most sense.

2. Actually I CAN assume its not lightspeed when the only examples of time having passed throughout DB, such as Roshi timing Goku & Krillin running or Kaio timing Goku's speed at the end of his training, is all in millisecond time. What reason at all do we have to believe that their general speed suddenly jumps to Nanosecond time just so this narrative of FTL feats can be justified prior to DBS? Anything beyond anecdotal connection of a few outlier feats or conjecture to prove that characters are on "X" level so they may be compared to some other medium of fiction? You certainly 'exposed' me, I MUST have some kind of bias to not agree with your opinion. Oh, excuse me, I meant "basic logic".

3. Yeah, I'm certainly twisting the facts around because two feats that only ever happened because of pure plot convenience cannot be defined outliers, just so it doesn't compromise or shake up your narrative. We certainly can't have that can we, if it upsets you or makes you uncomfortable?

4. Any official group that recognizes an outlier...well recognizes an outlier. There is no " Oh! But they let it happen one more time so that means their intention can be stretched to support my argument because its convenient for me, but can't work the other way because it shouldn't be convenient for anyone else!"

But what do I know? I never went to the school of selective reasoning, oh sorry...""basic logic".

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's obvious Roshi and Piccolo can moonbust because we saw them do it.