The original Super Saiyan revealed!

[Meshack]

I don’t know what Mitochloridrias are but I know it’s from Star Wars and I heard they are set it in stone when you are born. Toriyama said you can increase S-Cells by being gentle, high battle power, environment. The S-Cells aren’t set in stone. Those who are saying they’re the same are the problem among this community and will just continue to spread misinformation by making the comparison.

Midichlorians are a concept introduced in Episode I: The Phantom Menace in 1999. They're life forms that live in the blood of nearly every organism, and allow one to speak to the Force and do all the cool Jedi/Sith stuff. In particular, people with a high midichlorian count are more powerful, so in that way they're comparable to Power Level culture in that someone with a huge count will be significant. In the film, Anakin has a blood sample taken and his midichlorian count is stated to be much higher than even Yoda's, making him a Big Deal. They got a HUGE backlash from fans as it basically trivialized the concept of the Force, that Darth Vader and Luke and Palpatine are so powerful not through talent but by genetics and science. The hate was so profound that they were never mentioned ever again in any Star Wars story after that point.

What makes S-Cells different from midichlorians is that one can increase the amount of S-Cells they have, while in Star Wars you cannot increase your midichlorian count. In that way, S-Cells are basically just an explainer for "why" Super Saiyans exist in Saiyan biology, compared to midichlorians which actually restrict and compromise the mechanics of the story and characters.

Thanks.

So there’s no reason to compare S-Cells to Midochlorians because you can increase S-Cells and don’t make you more powerful.

[KBABZ]

So there’s no reason to compare S-Cells to Midochlorians because you can increase S-Cells and don’t make you more powerful.

I'm not sure if Toriyama said that higher S-Cells equals more power (or an effective version of that, which would be ease to reach Super Saiyan levels), but I think the comparison isn't entirely without merit. Once of the reasons why midichlorians are still hated today is that the Force was explained to be a rather mystic and almost magical thing, closer to religion and science, and midichlorians handwave it with science. I can see people getting upset at S-Cells for similar reasons, that Super Saiyan was something you "earned" rather than being explained away by science requirements and pre-requisites. And in another way it can be taken as trying to fix something that isn't broken, kinda like the whole "Kaio's come from apples on a tree" thing from way back.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well later material clarified that having a high midichlorian count was simply an indicator of Force potential and not its cause, but I don't know if that has been retconned or not.

[TKA]

Midichlorians are a concept introduced in Episode I: The Phantom Menace in 1999. They're life forms that live in the blood of nearly every organism, and allow one to speak to the Force and do all the cool Jedi/Sith stuff. In particular, people with a high midichlorian count are more powerful, so in that way they're comparable to Power Level culture in that someone with a huge count will be significant. In the film, Anakin has a blood sample taken and his midichlorian count is stated to be much higher than even Yoda's, making him a Big Deal. They got a HUGE backlash from fans as it basically trivialized the concept of the Force, that Darth Vader and Luke and Palpatine are so powerful not through talent but by genetics and science. The hate was so profound that they were never mentioned ever again in any Star Wars story after that point.

Few things:

[spoiler]1. midichlorians are not power levels. They're potential. If they were power levels, Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to stalemate Anakin here. Having a high midichlorian count just means you have a high potential.

2. It was stated in Episode 6 that the force and one's proficiency with it can "run in [a] family," meaning it's genetic.

3. There have been many stories about the midichlorians since then. The most significant of which, in my opinion, is the story of Darth Plagueis (and to a lesser extent, his master, Darth Tenebrous).

4. "Fans" profoundly misunderstand what midichlorians actually are. Here's an actual Lucasfilm Executive (and one from the George Lucas era, not appointed by Disney) explaining this issue.

5. As much as it destroys the escapism for "fans", it's also kind of the point. The Jedi in the Prequel Era was a dying order because they forgot a lot of the lessons they teach. You need X midichlorians to be admitted to the order, which is essentially the same as calling a child stupid because he's bad at math despite being fucking amazing at writing poems or creating paintings. The Jedi adopted a dogmatic view of everything, and that's why they get destroyed (Palpatine even says this). THAT is the point of midichlorians: to make the viewer go "Damn " Or as Mr. Hidalgo put it, "The prequel Jedi have systemized their methods at the expense of spirituality and intuition. They are more 'Order' than 'Jedi.'"[/spoiler]

[KBABZ]

Spoiler:

1. midichlorians are not power levels. They're potential. If they were power levels, Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to stalemate Anakin here. Having a high midichlorian count just means you have a high potential.

That's true, but by stating that Anakin has SO much more potential than even Yoda, it instills an effective talent gap, similar to humans and Saiyans. They aren't talented because of their skill or intellect in combat, they're talented because a statistic determines they can be. Anyway, what I meant by comparing midi-chlorians to Power Levels was that both are mathematical ways to determine the potential strength of an opponent.

4. "Fans" profoundly misunderstand what midichlorians actually are. Here's an actual Lucasfilm Executive (and one from the George Lucas era, not appointed by Disney) explaining this issue.

That was about the Force at large, it didn't really retcon or alter what midi-chlorians are as stated in EpI. I got that the Force is with everyone, that's why the phrase "May the Force be with you" works.

5. As much as it destroys the escapism for "fans", it's also kind of the point. The Jedi in the Prequel Era was a dying order because they forgot a lot of the lessons they teach. You need X midichlorians to be admitted to the order, which is essentially the same as calling a child stupid because he's bad at math despite being fucking amazing at writing poems or creating paintings. The Jedi adopted a dogmatic view of everything, and that's why they get destroyed (Palpatine even says this). THAT is the point of midichlorians: to make the viewer go "Damn " Or as Mr. Hidalgo put it, "The prequel Jedi have systemized their methods at the expense of spirituality and intuition. They are more 'Order' than 'Jedi.'"

Would have been nice if that was actually explained in the movies at some point, because I've watched those films many times and got absolutely none of that.

[Bruma rabu]

Increasing your S-Cells is what Toriyama was talking about.

I only ask because people seem to be comparing it to midicholrians. It seemed to me that he was talking more about a saiyan environment, morality, and genetics affects how many s cells he has not so much they can increase it.

He was specifically asked how to increase your S-Cells.

“↓ And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?

Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one’s S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time that they became the stuff of legend. However, one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it’s easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.”

I don’t know what Mitochloridrias are but I know it’s from Star Wars and I heard they are set it in stone when you are born. Toriyama said you can increase S-Cells by being gentle, high battle power, environment. The S-Cells aren’t set in stone. Those who are saying they’re the same are the problem among this community and will just continue to spread misinformation by making the comparison.

Ok

[ShadowBardock89]

I feel somewhat justified now. I kept bringing up a Saiyan needs to hit a power level bench mark in the equation to become Super Saiyan in my arguments, only to be chided for using this logic. Now, Toriyama confirms that there is a point a Saiyan must hit to become a Super Saiyan (in addition to a "gentle heart" for S-Cells). All of my detractors now have to factor this in because it came from "Word of God." I love it.

[Saturnine]

It makes perfect sense. The U6 Saiyans' base levels are quite humongous, well above Buu arc Goku clearly. At this level of power becoming a Super Saiyan should be a trifle.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It makes perfect sense. The U6 Saiyans' base levels are quite humongous, well above Buu arc Goku clearly. At this level of power becoming a Super Saiyan should be a trifle.

Which is compounded by their gentle hearts and environment.

Seriously, these Saiyans can barely even manage to insult one another! That's GOHAN levels of gentleness! You know, when Gohan doesn't suddenly go on a power trip

[Doctor.]

You don't get Super Saiyan by stepping on a lego and being mad about it. Goku and Vegeta got it because of extreme emotions of anger. Gohan we don't see him getting it but it was hard, Goku was telling him to imagine the Androids or Freeza killing everyone if I remember correctly.

It's not far-fetched at all. If they are already some of the most powerful beings in their Universe then reasons for strife are extremely reduced. Cabba got it because Vegeta was beating him up and threatening to kill everything he loved.

Gohan went Super Saiyan off-screen, so did Goten, Trunks and Future Trunks. And I'm not justifying their transformations, mind you. But at least they transformed as children. Goten transformed without having any idea what a Super Saiyan was. Caulifla and Kale have no excuse. This new information doesn't justify their transformations.

What's your argument? That any level of anger is enough to trigger Super Saiyan or that Caulifla and Kale must have had an extreme event like Goku and Vegeta during their life to trigger it?

If it's the first, then it goes against all the know triggers for Super Saiyan seen. Goku we all know. Vegeta only got it due to the rage of his own limits. Gohan we don't see it but we see him fail trying to imagine Goku being killed, a suggestion from Goku who told him it wouldn't be easy. Cabba I said it before.

I mean we literally see Cabba making Caulifla angry to try and make her SSJ. He failed and that's why we have the tingly backs.

If it's the second, I already said how unlikely that is if they already are top dogs in their Universe. If such an event happened with them as children they might not have enough power to even transform. Like with Gohan when he didn't transform against Raditz or Freeza.

The argument is that it obviously doesn't take much anger once you're strong enough, considering Gohan, Trunks, future Trunks and Goten all went Super Saiyan as children off-screen. Vegeta and future Gohan also went Super Saiyan off-screen. Cabba went Super Saiyan because he was threatened.

If Goten went Super Saiyan as a child without even knowing what the form was, what's Caulifla and Kale's excuse? Again, they NEVER got angry or powered-up before? It's just very unrealistic that they never transformed before.

[dbgtFO]

Gohan went Super Saiyan off-screen,

Gohan we don't see it but we see him fail trying to imagine Goku being killed, a suggestion from Goku who told him it wouldn't be easy.

The argument is that it obviously doesn't take much anger once you're strong enough, considering Gohan, Trunks, future Trunks and Goten all went Super Saiyan as children off-screen.

Guys come on, Gohan's first SS transformation was very much on-screen in both manga and anime. Only the anime handled it a bit differently.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[LightBing]

The argument is that it obviously doesn't take much anger once you're strong enough, considering Gohan, Trunks, future Trunks and Goten all went Super Saiyan as children off-screen. Vegeta and future Gohan also went Super Saiyan off-screen. Cabba went Super Saiyan because he was threatened.

If Goten went Super Saiyan as a child without even knowing what the form was, what's Caulifla and Kale's excuse? Again, they NEVER got angry or powered-up before? It's just very unrealistic that they never transformed before.

You're basing it of characters we never saw transform. Ignoring that the characters we did saw and those who describe it achieved it in extreme situations.
You're defending it based on head-canon.

Even Gohan was told by Goku to imagine him being killed and he failed at least once. With Goku reassuring him describing the difficulty of obtaining SSJ.

How can you include Cabba in the not much anger category. He was being beaten up and threatened that everything he loved would be destroyed. Is that casual anger to you?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Now this information makes me wonder what's up with Goku absorbing SSG's power, and him and Vegeta learning to tap into that power with SSB.

Is it because Goku was righteous enough to call upon that power at will? Is it because Whis's training allowed them to "trick" Yamoshi into gifting them his power? Many questions indeed!

[Doctor.]

You're basing it of characters we never saw transform. Ignoring that the characters we did saw and those who describe it achieved it in extreme situations.
You're defending it based on head-canon.

Even Gohan was told by Goku to imagine him being killed and he failed at least once. With Goku reassuring him describing the difficulty of obtaining SSJ.

How can you include Cabba in the not much anger category. He was being beaten up and threatened that everything he loved would be destroyed. Is that casual anger to you?

Yes, and the characters we did see transform were much weaker than Caulifla, while the characters we didn't see are closer to her power and achieved it easily, as children, without knowing what the form even was, almost as if it were second-nature. And since I'm arguing that we shouldn't have seen Caulifla and Kale's first ever transformation sequence and they should have known SS already when we were introduced to them, then I don't see what your point is.

I keep telling you Gohan's transformation is filler.

Compared to Goku? Yeah, that's very casual and it just shows that the stronger you are, the less anger you need.

[LightBing]

You're basing it of characters we never saw transform. Ignoring that the characters we did saw and those who describe it achieved it in extreme situations.
You're defending it based on head-canon.

Even Gohan was told by Goku to imagine him being killed and he failed at least once. With Goku reassuring him describing the difficulty of obtaining SSJ.

How can you include Cabba in the not much anger category. He was being beaten up and threatened that everything he loved would be destroyed. Is that casual anger to you?

Yes, and the characters we did see transform were much weaker than Caulifla, while the characters we didn't see are closer to her power and achieved it easily, as children, without knowing what the form even was, almost as if it were second-nature. And since I'm arguing that we shouldn't have seen Caulifla and Kale's first ever transformation sequence and they should have known SS already when we were introduced to them, then I don't see what your point is.

I keep telling you Gohan's transformation is filler.

Compared to Goku? Yeah, that's very casual and it just shows that the stronger you are, the less anger you need.

You don't know how strong Goten and Kid Trunks were when they transformed. Future Trunks is arguably the weakest SSJ ever, transformed he couldn't stack up to Base Future Gohan.

What I'm arguing is that the anger trigger isn't reduced due to power or whatever. I'm tired of repeating this but all know instances are extreme anger situations. Therefore it's perfectly realistic why the Universe 6 didn't have it.

All I said about Gohan is from the manga, you need to refresh your memory.

As viewers we know Vegeta was posturing, Cabba doesn't know that. Vegeta might as well be using a Freeza mask, the only difference is that Vegeta didn't kill Cabba's best friend.

This is getting circular, agree to disagree.

[Meshack]

Gokuh was the only Saiyan in the original manga to achieve Super Saiyan on-screen. You can later add Cabbe, Caulifla and Kale to be on-screen. Three out of four are new. Everyone else was off-screen.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, this information, at first, made me wonder how the Saiyans managed to construe Yamoshi as this feared and brutal warrior that thirsted for destruction.......

Until I realized something.

He was this kind of warrior TO THEM. We saw with Goku that turning Super Saiyan for the first time tends to get you a little power mad and much more ruthless than you were before. And when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 against Cell, well...... we all saw how cruel and power mad he was. Perhaps something similar happened with Yamoshi, whereby after becoming the first of these legendary super warriors, he fought with intense fury against the Saiyans, such that they remembered him for his cruelty and appetite for destruction against THEM.

And we all know that the Universe 7 Saiyans were kinda twisted and messed up assholes, so OF COURSE they'd praise Yamoshi for becoming so powerful and giving in to his darker Saiyan tendencies. Although Yamoshi apparently died in battle due to overwhelming odds, so I guess he didn't die after Planet Sadal was destroyed. Maybe he destroyed it in his rage by accident or in an attempt to wipe out the evil Saiyans.

[Meshack]

You know, this information, at first, made me wonder how the Saiyans managed to construe Yamoshi as this feared and brutal warrior that thirsted for destruction.......

Until I realized something.

He was this kind of warrior TO THEM. We saw with Goku that turning Super Saiyan for the first time tends to get you a little power mad and much more ruthless than you were before. And when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 against Cell, well...... we all saw how cruel and power mad he was. Perhaps something similar happened with Yamoshi, whereby after becoming the first of these legendary super warriors, he fought with intense fury against the Saiyans, such that they remembered him for his cruelty and appetite for destruction against THEM.

And we all know that the Universe 7 Saiyans were kinda twisted and messed up assholes, so OF COURSE they'd praise Yamoshi for becoming so powerful and giving in to his darker Saiyan tendencies. Although Yamoshi apparently died in battle due to overwhelming odds, so I guess he didn't die after Planet Sadal was destroyed. Maybe he destroyed it in his rage by accident or in an attempt to wipe out the evil Saiyans.

Toriyama did say Yamoshi had a ruthless fighting style. Just because Yamoshi was righteous doesn’t mean he wasn’t similar to Gokuh or Gohan. Gokuh and Gohan were righteous. I just feel like people always find a reason to complain but they don’t look at what happened in the past. It’s always the people that are common that know more than people like Geekdom or Rhymestyle.

[CashmanX]

I'm starting to think that Yamoshi was only the original Super Saiyan and there was another set of 6 Saiyans that channeled him and his comrades years later, leading to the first Super Saiyan God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm starting to think that Yamoshi was only the original Super Saiyan and there was another set of 6 Saiyans that channeled him and his comrades years later, leading to the first Super Saiyan God.

Although I'm glad you actually got that, I'm still STUNNED that people are still getting that confusion.

Yamoshi was DEAD by the time the six Saiyans unintentionally created the SSG ritual, he was explicitly a spirit, and we KNOW that one of those six Saiyans was the one to become the original SSG.