Is there a need for the existence of this specific Trunks' timeline?

[KBABZ]

Would you say that time stands still on his future timeline from the perspective of the altered one? Or vice-versa?

Neither, technically speaking, as it depends on how long after his departure time he set the Time Machine to return. Let's say that he left at 10:00am. He could set his Time Machine to return at 10:15am, so to Future Bulma he'd only have been gone fifteen minutes. Think of it this way: when Trunks said he would appear in three years time on May 12 Age 767 and went back to his future, it did not matter how long he waited in his future for the Time Machine to recharge; if it is set to May 12 767, it will always take him to that point in time (in Timeline 2, obviously) no matter when he actually decides to do it. This is why the process of waiting around for his Time Machine to charge up in his future is never even brought up as an issue; it could take a year to do that, but it wouldn't matter since he'll always go back to May 12 767 (and we know this is what happens because Trunks isn't three years older when he returns to help with the Androids later).

To use an inverse example, when Trunks returns to his future after Gohan defeated Perfect Cell, we can assume that he returned to Timeline 1 at a point in time not that long after he left. But, he spent fifteen days in Timeline 2 plus the year in the Room of Spirit and Time, so while from Future Bulma's perspective in Timeline 1 he had only been gone for, say, a few hours (simply due to whenever Trunks decided in the day to get back), he has aged a year and fifteen days in Timeline 2, hence why Bulma gawks at how much taller he is when they meet back up.

[Terra-jin]

Neither, technically speaking, as it depends on how long after his departure time he set the Time Machine to return. Let's say that he left at 10:00am. He could set his Time Machine to return at 10:15am, so to Future Bulma he'd only have been gone fifteen minutes. Think of it this way: when Trunks said he would appear in three years time on May 12 Age 767 and went back to his future, it did not matter how long he waited in his future for the Time Machine to recharge; if it is set to May 12 767, it will always take him to that point in time (in Timeline 2, obviously) no matter when he actually decides to do it. This is why the process of waiting around for his Time Machine to charge up in his future is never even brought up as an issue; it could take a year to do that, but it wouldn't matter since he'll always go back to May 12 767 (and we know this is what happens because Trunks isn't three years older when he returns to help with the Androids later).

While I agree that the time machine can select any time for its destination, I meant something else.

We agree on the multiverse theory, i.e. that there's multiple timelines existing simultaneously. So during the time of Trunks' visit to the altered timeline, his own timeline still existed. They're parallel universes, like the 12 universes of DB Super. This leads to me believe that time must flow at the same rate through them all.

Perhaps this question helps me to understand your theory: at the moment that Trunks was about to visit the altered timeline for the second time, was the year 767 in the past or the future of that timeline?

[KBABZ]

Perhaps this question helps me to understand your theory: at the moment that Trunks was about to visit the altered timeline for the second time, was the year 767 in the past or the future of that timeline?

In the future of Timeline 2. As Trunks realizes later on, anything he does in Timeline 2 will have no effect on anything in Timeline 1.

I think I might do an animated gif showing how my personal theory works.

[Terra-jin]

Perhaps this question helps me to understand your theory: at the moment that Trunks was about to visit the altered timeline for the second time, was the year 767 in the past or the future of that timeline?

In the future of Timeline 2. As Trunks realizes later on, anything he does in Timeline 2 will have no effect on anything in Timeline 1.

Check! And to zoom in on that question further: what year was Timeline 2 exactly at that point? Earlier than 767, because that lies in the future, but how much earlier exactly?

I think I might do an animated gif showing how my personal theory works.

That's been on my to do list as well... for quite some time now, since I know nothing of making gifs or animations

[KBABZ]

Perhaps this question helps me to understand your theory: at the moment that Trunks was about to visit the altered timeline for the second time, was the year 767 in the past or the future of that timeline?

In the future of Timeline 2. As Trunks realizes later on, anything he does in Timeline 2 will have no effect on anything in Timeline 1.

Check! And to zoom in on that question further: what year was Timeline 2 exactly at that point? Earlier than 767, because that lies in the future, but how much earlier exactly?

To me that question doesn't really apply. From Future Trunk's perspective as he's setting the date on the Time Machine in Timeline 1, you could say that "all" of Timeline 2 is open to him, he just has to specify what point in time he wants to pop in to.

I think I might do an animated gif showing how my personal theory works.

That's been on my to do list as well... for quite some time now, since I know nothing of making gifs or animations

Ha-HA! I know how to do it in Photoshop!

[Terra-jin]

To me that question doesn't really apply. From Future Trunk's perspective as he's setting the date on the Time Machine in Timeline 1, you could say that "all" of Timeline 2 is open to him, he just has to specify what point in time he wants to pop in to.

Hmmm, I disagree: everything before 764 (at least) on Timeline 2 is in the past. It has already happened. Under the assumption that timelines cannot be overwritten but are instead copied & preserved, the part of T2 before 764 is not open to Trunks. He'd change history and thereby create a new timeline.

But your criterion for creating a new timeline isn't whether you change the past per se, but whether the change is significant, right? If that's the case, do you disagree with my assumption that overwriting history is impossible?
When Trunks goes to 767 in T2, does he create a new timeline?
And had he gone to 763, would he then have created a new timeline?

I know, lots of questions but hopefully they'll shed some more light on your theory for me.

[KBABZ]

To me that question doesn't really apply. From Future Trunk's perspective as he's setting the date on the Time Machine in Timeline 1, you could say that "all" of Timeline 2 is open to him, he just has to specify what point in time he wants to pop in to.

Hmmm, I disagree: everything before 764 (at least) on Timeline 2 is in the past. It has already happened. Under the assumption that timelines cannot be overwritten but are instead copied & preserved, the part of T2 before 764 is not open to Trunks. He'd change history and thereby create a new timeline.

Yeah, now that I think about it that would be the logical way to put it. After all, Cell arrives in 763, a year before that, and I consider that a new Timeline because it affects everything after it, which I should probably classify as Timeline 3 (since without that, Timeline 2 has a version where presumably the Androids are defeated without Cell appearing, where Trunks returns to Timeline 1, and then Cell kills him in 788 and takes the Time Machine to 763, thus creating Timeline 3).

I do think everything before 764 would be open for Trunks to travel to at any point if he wanted, but he would make a Timeline 3 as a result, just like when Cell traveled to 763.

But your criterion for creating a new timeline isn't whether you change the past per se, but whether the change is significant, right? If that's the case, do you disagree with my assumption that overwriting history is impossible?

As I mentioned above, I think I need to change said criterion from "significant change" to "time traveling at all". But in addition it needs to be BEFORE a previous time travel arrival date.

When Trunks goes to 767 in T2, does he create a new timeline?

Technically yes, but only a variant of Timeline 2 since he arrives after his first trip in 764, where he killed Frieza. There is technically a version of Timeline 2-a where Trunks DOESN'T arrive and the Z Fighters defeat Androids 16-20 (this is what I think eventually leads to Cell killing Trunks in Timeline 1 and going back to 763 in Timeline 2, which creates Timeline 3).

And had he gone to 763, would he then have created a new timeline?

Yes, that would count I think in making a Timeline 3 since it was before a previous time travel arrival date.

[Terra-jin]

Yeah, now that I think about it that would be the logical way to put it. After all, Cell arrives in 763, a year before that, and I consider that a new Timeline because it affects everything after it, which I should probably classify as Timeline 3 (since without that, Timeline 2 has a version where presumably the Androids are defeated without Cell appearing, where Trunks returns to Timeline 1, and then Cell kills him in 788 and takes the Time Machine to 763, thus creating Timeline 3).

Check. T2 would then be what many call the "unseen timeline".

I do think everything before 764 would be open for Trunks to travel to at any point if he wanted, but he would make a Timeline 3 as a result, just like when Cell traveled to 763.

Agreed, the time machine can in principle visit any age (year).

As I mentioned above, I think I need to change said criterion from "significant change" to "time traveling at all". But in addition it needs to be BEFORE a previous time travel arrival date.

When Trunks goes to 767 in T2, does he create a new timeline?

Technically yes, but only a variant of Timeline 2 since he arrives after his first trip in 764, where he killed Frieza. There is technically a version of Timeline 2-a where Trunks DOESN'T arrive and the Z Fighters defeat Androids 16-20 (this is what I think eventually leads to Cell killing Trunks in Timeline 1 and going back to 763 in Timeline 2, which creates Timeline 3).

If the criterion is whether the destination is before a previous arrival date, there wouldn't be a 2-a. You might say that a sequence of events like that which you described as 2-a exists, but only in a potential sense (i.e. it hasn't happened yet). Since there's no history to overwrite yet, history is merely written and no new timeline is created. In other words, 2-a is not preserved.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence in parentheses, but I doubt that Cell's history went like that... then again, if you accept that Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, it might... although I just chalk that up to a continuity error, much like Trunks mentioning 19 and 20 at first.

[KBABZ]

If the criterion is whether the destination is before a previous arrival date, there wouldn't be a 2-a. You might say that a sequence of events like that which you described as 2-a exists, but only in a potential sense (i.e. it hasn't happened yet). Since there's no history to overwrite yet, history is merely written and no new timeline is created. In other words, 2-a is not preserved.

X-a is a designation to say that a Timeline has had events altered after time travel is used after it already has been. In DBZ, this can be seen when Trunks arrives in 767 to help with the Androids after having previously visited in 764 to warn about them. Since he's "interrupting" the forward flow of an already alternate timeline, it's an alternate of an alternate, hence 2-a.

Conversely, Cell's appearance BEFORE Trunks' earliest time travel arrival point means that he influences and overlaps all of Timeline 2 and its variants, and it's easier to simply call it Timeline 3 at that point.

I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence in parentheses, but I doubt that Cell's history went like that... then again, if you accept that Freeza was killed by Trunks in Cell's timeline, it might... although I just chalk that up to a continuity error, much like Trunks mentioning 19 and 20 at first.

It's me trying to work out where the bloody hell Cell comes from in Trunk's Timeline 1 future.

We see in the epilogue content of the Cell Saga that Trunks is next to his Time Machine and intends to visit the Z Fighters to tell him about his defeat of 17 and 18, and is then attacked by Cell. Considering that the Cell that we see appear in the Cell Saga has this exact same backstory, logically that means that there must be a version of Timeline 2 where Trunks and the Z Fighters are able to defeat the Androids without Cell showing up, after which Trunks returns to his own time and defeats 17 and 18 there. This allows for Trunks to be caught off-guard and killed by Cell (because that Trunks has never met him yet), after which Cell goes back in time to 763 and creates Timeline 3. It fulfills the motivation Cell has to use the Time Machine in the first place (Trunks killing 17 and 18 prevents Cell from absorbing them), as well as Trunks not knowing about Cell and getting killed so Cell can steal the Time Machine.

The part to wrap your head around is that the "ripple effect" of Cell's time travel is never depicted in the story itself, because of course Toriyama is writing by the seat of his pants and came up with what is in my opinion an unnecessarily convoluted origin for him. Think of it this way: everything we read/watch that takes place after 763 is always Timeline 3 where Cell is already there waiting, and we are simply never shown the "first go-around" of Timeline 2 and 2-a where Cell doesn't appear. We're instead viewing the "finished" sequence of events, Timeline 3.

[Terra-jin]

It's me trying to work out where the bloody hell Cell comes from in Trunk's Timeline 1 future.

We see in the epilogue content of the Cell Saga that Trunks is next to his Time Machine and intends to visit the Z Fighters to tell him about his defeat of 17 and 18, and is then attacked by Cell. Considering that the Cell that we see appear in the Cell Saga has this exact same backstory, logically that means that there must be a version of Timeline 2 where Trunks and the Z Fighters are able to defeat the Androids without Cell showing up, after which Trunks returns to his own time and defeats 17 and 18 there. This allows for Trunks to be caught off-guard and killed by Cell (because that Trunks has never met him yet), after which Cell goes back in time to 763 and creates Timeline 3. It fulfills the motivation Cell has to use the Time Machine in the first place (Trunks killing 17 and 18 prevents Cell from absorbing them), as well as Trunks not knowing about Cell and getting killed so Cell can steal the Time Machine.

The part to wrap your head around is that the "ripple effect" of Cell's time travel is never depicted in the story itself, because of course Toriyama is writing by the seat of his pants and came up with what is in my opinion an unnecessarily convoluted origin for him. Think of it this way: everything we read/watch that takes place after 763 is always Timeline 3 where Cell is already there waiting, and we are simply never shown the "first go-around" of Timeline 2 and 2-a where Cell doesn't appear. We're instead viewing the "finished" sequence of events, Timeline 3.

It's quite a challenging conundrum, isn't it? I'll give you my theory in a bit, but first I'm curious how you account for there being a second "future" timeline - the first being the one where Cell kills Trunks and the second where it's vice versa.

Which time trip accounted for its creation?

[KBABZ]

It's quite a challenging conundrum, isn't it? I'll give you my theory in a bit, but first I'm curious how you account for there being a second "future" timeline - the first being the one where Cell kills Trunks and the second where it's vice versa.

Which time trip accounted for its creation?

The one where Cell kills Trunks occurs first. As I mentioned, this is born out of my theorized Timeline 2-a, where the Androids of Timeline 2 are defeated without Cell having showed up yet, then Trunks returns to Timeline 1, and is then killed by Cell after he has matured to his humanoid form and left Gero's lab. He then travels back in time and creates Timeline 3 and encounters Trunks again. However since Cell is defeated and Trunks still alive, when Trunks returns to Timeline 1 he now knows about Cell and his intentions (and is WAY more powerful than the first instance) and is able to kill Cell instead. Because of the way time travel works in DBZ, this doesn't create a paradox.

[Terra-jin]

The one where Cell kills Trunks occurs first. As I mentioned, this is born out of my theorized Timeline 2-a, where the Androids of Timeline 2 are defeated without Cell having showed up yet, then Trunks returns to Timeline 1, and is then killed by Cell after he has matured to his humanoid form and left Gero's lab. He then travels back in time and creates Timeline 3 and encounters Trunks again. However since Cell is defeated and Trunks still alive, when Trunks returns to Timeline 1 he now knows about Cell and his intentions (and is WAY more powerful than the first instance) and is able to kill Cell instead. Because of the way time travel works in DBZ, this doesn't create a paradox.

That must mean that there's a timeline 4, being copied from timeline 1 as an alternate future timeline. In your original overview from a couple of posts ago, you label that one 1-c, but I think it should be 4 because its events satisfy the criterion we've established earlier (i.e. the 'new and improved' Trunks visited his future timeline at a point before an earlier arrival).

Now for another head-scratcher: where does the Trunks that arrived in your T3 come from?

[KBABZ]

The one where Cell kills Trunks occurs first. As I mentioned, this is born out of my theorized Timeline 2-a, where the Androids of Timeline 2 are defeated without Cell having showed up yet, then Trunks returns to Timeline 1, and is then killed by Cell after he has matured to his humanoid form and left Gero's lab. He then travels back in time and creates Timeline 3 and encounters Trunks again. However since Cell is defeated and Trunks still alive, when Trunks returns to Timeline 1 he now knows about Cell and his intentions (and is WAY more powerful than the first instance) and is able to kill Cell instead. Because of the way time travel works in DBZ, this doesn't create a paradox.

That must mean that there's a timeline 4, being copied from timeline 1 as an alternate future timeline. In your original overview from a couple of posts ago, you label that one 1-c, but I think it should be 4 because its events satisfy the criterion we've established earlier (i.e. the 'new and improved' Trunks visited his future timeline at a point before an earlier arrival).

I disagree, since every time Trunks arrives back in his Timeline 1 future, it's after his departure date, every time.

Now for another head-scratcher: where does the Trunks that arrived in your T3 come from?

From Timeline 1-a. The overwriting effect of Timeline 3 is mainly a classification thing on my part.

[Terra-jin]

I disagree, since every time Trunks arrives back in his Timeline 1 future, it's after his departure date, every time.

Not every time: after meeting Goku, the Trunks from T3 plans to return to 784 in the future, but that point lies before an earlier arrival date. The original Trunks had already been in 785, after all. This means that, just as your timeline 2-b should actually have been 3, 1-c should be 4.

Labeling aside, there should be four timelines, as you said as well in your original post. Hence the answer to OP's question

[ahill1]

This is why the process of waiting around for his Time Machine to charge up in his future is never even brought up as an issue;

It was brought up, no?




Also, can someone clarify to me how many timelines there were according to DBS? I think the amount of time rings indicate there were 4 timelines in the manga, am I wrong?

[KBABZ]

This is why the process of waiting around for his Time Machine to charge up in his future is never even brought up as an issue;

It was brought up, no?

Ah! Yep, Trunks definitely returns to his own time after meeting Goku, then. He also expresses concerns as to whether he'll survive that long, something I opted not to mention. This makes me wonder if the Time Machine is actually limited in going to a certain point in time and then returning to the time it left. After all, Trunks could easily have just jumped to Age 767 when the Adndroids appear, but he acts as if that isn't an option until he returns to his own time first.

Also, can someone clarify to me how many timelines there were according to DBS? I think the amount of time rings indicate there were 4 timelines in the manga, am I wrong?

Unfortunately I haven't watched Super so I cannot speculate on how that might work.

[ahill1]

@dbgtFO --> only a doubt and I'd like to hear your opinion. How do you think Trunks [from Cell's timeline] killed the androids if he didn't travel to the past? He couldn't have possibly found out about the underground laboratory and get the blue prints since he wouldn't know about Cell.

[KBABZ]

@dbgtFO --> only a doubt and I'd like to hear your opinion. How do you think Trunks [from Cell's timeline] killed the androids if he didn't travel to the past? He couldn't have possibly found out about the underground laboratory and get the blue prints since he wouldn't know about Cell.

More to the point, the anime shows us directly the Trunks encounters Cell after defeating the Androids (and not via some blueprints, rather through pure strength ass-kickery), plus a time gap where the world begins to recover.

[Basaku]

Logically there has to be an “unseen” timeline, bit they are ignoring it recently...

Well they've also ignored Cell's timeline where Future Trunks got killed. Presumably, with Androids already dealt with and Cell departing, that timeline would be recovering so Future Trunks from Super could've just gone there with Mai, Whis didn't really need to create another one for them (to share with another Future Trunks & Mai on top of that...)

I guess one could argue that 4th timeline is not 10000000% needed for Cell saga to happen but Future Trunks still has to be duplicated somehow. Cell's time travel (causing duplication of the 'present-timeline' where FT travels to) is the obvious and easiest, and most likely mandatory solution.

[KBABZ]

Logically there has to be an “unseen” timeline, bit they are ignoring it recently...

Well they've also ignored Cell's timeline where Future Trunks got killed. Presumably, with Androids already dealt with and Cell departing, that timeline would be recovering so Future Trunks from Super could've just gone there with Mai, Whis didn't really need to create another one for them (to share with another Future Trunks & Mai on top of that...)

Under my understanding of how DBZ's time travel works, that isn't possible as the time machine only jumps between Timeline 1 and Timeline 2 (which due to Cell morphs into Timeline 3); it doesn't appear that you can choose exactly which Timeline you jump to when using the time machine.