Log Power Scaling - A Different Approach

[dragonball0900]

Also another thing is that the Fusion dance multiplier can't be just (A+B)x5

Look. Goku is a 1, SSJ is a 50, SSJ2 is a 100 and SSJ3 is a 400.

If we use your formula, (1+1)x5, 2x5 = 10

That's Gogeta's base. 10x50 then it's 500. That would be SSJ Gogeta. But remember that in Movie 12, SSJ3 Goku was stomped by Janemba, who was defeated easily by Gogeta. So Gogeta can't be just (Goku+Vegeta)x5. I'm pretty sure (Goku+Vegeta)x10 can work better.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think there is a formula at all aside from fusion = tens of times the fusers. Gotenks was stated to have powered up hugely but no increase was noted on the boys.

[shadowfox87]

So Vegeta went from equals with initial Semi Cell to completely ragdolling FP Semi Cell with a 1.2x boost? Trunks also was much stronger than a Cell who barely budged with Vegeta's kick. I doubt even a 2x boost can fit into that.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. ASSJ Vegeta > Semi-Perfect Cell which is what it shows, not equal. There's no FP Semi Cell. There's just Semi-Perfect Cell. After Cell became Perfect, Trunks went USSJ which was more in power than Perfect Cell but too slow to fight. The current scale shows that USSJ Trunks > Perfect Cell.

So... Where can the three SSJs fit in here? Future Gohan was a bit above >50% Future 17 as he wasn't sure if he could take both Cyborgs down aand wasn't much weaker than Debut Trunks, who could clown Cyborg Freeza, . There's sure a gap bigger than 2x between the twins and Freeza.
And Cell tanked Piccolo's best blast withot a scratch while being almost equals with him? Recoome was 36~40k to Vegeta's >30k and was all bruised by Vegeta's proto Final Flash.

By three SSJs, I assume you mean Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Goku's last power level in SSJ when fighting Freeza was about 150 million. Trunks and Vegeta are both around here as they are new SSJs, both weaker than Androids 16, 17, and 18, but stronger than Android 19, 20. Goku has improved a bit, but not by a lot, maybe 155 million. He spent his time on Yardrat learning Instant Transmission, but there's nobody strong there for him to train against nor a gravity chamber or anything.

Future 17 was weaker than Android 17. The Future Androids did not have the data from SSJ Trunks which made the Androids in the present timeline stronger. Imperfect Cell almost got beaten by Piccolo (Kami absorbed) until he escaped and sucked the energy of 600,000 humans. That's when he became above Android 17 and Piccolo but below Android 16. A couple million is not almost equal. A million is a lot. People have gotten so used to large numbers that they add more just to feel a "gap".

The difference between Recoom and Vegeta was not millions but thousands. So it does make sense for Recoom to take a little damage from a direct hit from someone who is only 10-20k below him.

Bojack had a whole on his chest. Cell was hit twice and had no wholes on him. I'd say Cell is the stronger of the duo.

Bojack had a hole in his chest AND was able to stand and do a double ki blast. Cell on the other hand, was bending down crying on his knees after 1 punch. Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Bojack for sure, but regular Perfect Cell less likely. Gohan would also be stronger after being healed from the battle with Cell. Since the Bojack movie took place after the Cell saga, it makes more sense that Bojack faced a stronger SSJ2 Gohan.

Er... V-Jump classified Gogeta less than twice stronger than Broly... I doubt the numbers from Broly, Gogeta and Cooler can be taken seriously.

V-Jump is the only source of information we have to gauge these characters. I did show above that Gogeta's power level was a mistake by V-Jump and that 2.5 billion is not high enough for the math and calculations to make any sense. If you read above, I gave SSJ Gogeta 6 billion.

Gohan said he would kill Cell if he wasn't injured, and Gohan being constantly used as a measure stick on the Boo Arc when Cell was completely forgotten tells us who's the stronger of the duo.

If Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan and SSJ2 = 2x SSJ, then Super Perfect Cell = 2x Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan = 2x SSJ Gohan. The math just doesn't allow for SSJ2 Gohan to be stronger than Super Perfect Cell, injured or not. SSJ2 Gohan got his power in half after protecting Vegeta. Based on the logic and the math, the only reason that Gohan won that Kamehameha struggle was because Vegeta distracted Cell.

Vegeta and Trunks shat themselves when Goku powered up at the Cell Games. Teen Gohan also was at least Dabra's equal, who was compared to the Cell who was blitzing Goku almost as good as Vegeta was blitizing Zarbon. CG Goku sure isn't almost Gohan's equal.

Being surprised at Goku powering up and "shat themselves" is exaggerating it. Goku himself stated in the manga that Dabura was around Cell's level. Goku and Gohan both trained together in the ROSAT. Gohan is clearly stronger than Goku. Being 10 million stronger is a lot. Again, how much a "gap" is based on opinion. Before, a thousand used to be a gap, now a million or 10 million is not a big enough gap. It's still a lot in my opinion and it makes the math work. If you make it any higher, then it affects all the subsequent power levels downstream and then you find problems then with the Buu saga.

So Teen Gohan < Goku in Namek? Goten was pretty much fighting evenly with Gohan as SSJs before the Budokai.

Also, according to you the kids are 2nd form Freeza level. If two Freeza's sat on each others' shoulders and put a clown suit, could they hold their own against #18? Because that's what the kids did.

Where did Teen Gohan come from in that comparison? Where did I say that Base Teen Gohan (Post-ROSAT) < Base Goku on Namek? Goten was not fighting evenly with Gohan. Throwing rocks and sparring is not fighting evenly. Gohan was training Goten for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. It's silly to think that SSJ Goten = SSJ Gohan before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Unless all of Gotenks's forms (Including base and Pre Rosat SSJ) fit between 5 and 5.2 billions, Gotenks is much, much, much above Goku.

Again, it's back to how much a "gap" is considered big for you? Before, a million is not enough, now a billion. SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. That's a fact, but it's not clear by how much. There is no way to put Base Gotenks who got pwned by Fat Buu and SSJ Gotenks who got pwned again by Super Buu, to be above SSJ3 Goku. Goku himself stated that he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted, but he wanted to give the next generation a chance. Putting even SSJ2 Gotenks between 5-5.2 billion would affect all the numbers downstream and make everything much much bigger.

He shit talks the three saiyans even after seeing Goku's 3000 kili.

50% Freeza >> Yakon?

Dabura shit talks about the saiyans because the line after that, he says that not even a guy with 4000 kili is enough to beat him so there's nothing to worry about. Yakon is 800 kili and we already know the conversion of kili to BP. Hence Yakon is 40 million, which is below 60 million (50% Freeza), yes. I didn't make the conversion nor the 800. This is all official information.

Goku said Piccolo powered up a lot from the Rosat. He should be far stronger than 17 by now. A 180 isn't far stronger than a 175 either. Damn, a fight between 180 and a 175 would be close as hell and the 175 even might win.

This again the question of how "big" is a gap. We already have an upper limit here defined by Dabura - 200 million. Shin > Piccolo (post-ROSAT). So how big of a gap would you like to give Piccolo (post-ROSAT) that would make him below 200 million and still allow Shin to be above that?

A 5.5 sure can't smack around a 5.3 like Gohan did.

Back in DBZ, there were characters being smacked around by fighters only 100 stronger than them. Roshi's power level was 139 if you remember in Dragon Ball. Goku's power level when he arrived on Namek was 90,000 when he smacked around the Ginyu Force. Goku's power level when he smacked around Freeza was 30 milliion above. This is again, how "big" a gap is good enough for you? A 0.2 billion is not big enough it seems. If Gohan is given a higher boost than 5.5, then the multiplier for Ultimate would have to be higher than 500, but it cannot be higher than 600 because of the Potara Fusion formula. All of it is based on math. If you can come with values that fit the math and satisfy the conditions that allow Gohan to be stronger, feel free to do so. The other possibility is to increase Gohan's base. Do you really think that Gohan playing around with a heavy sword for a couple of hours would put his base above Goku and Vegeta who have been training for the last 7 years? If you agree, then Gohan can be greater than 6 billion.

Goku thought he had no shot against Boo. If he was 94% of Boo, he sure would give it a shot, even more with Vegeta there to back him up.

I referenced the exact manga chapter and quoted what Goku said inside Super Buu's stomach. Goku stated that he had no chance against Super Buu. He laughed and said he could take Kid Buu. This implies that he did have a chance at beating Kid Buu. He even thought if he powered up fully in SSJ3, that he could beat Kid Buu.

[shadowfox87]

Look. Goku is a 1, SSJ is a 50, SSJ2 is a 100 and SSJ3 is a 400.

If we use your formula, (1+1)x5, 2x5 = 10

That's Gogeta's base. 10x50 then it's 500. That would be SSJ Gogeta. But remember that in Movie 12, SSJ3 Goku was stomped by Janemba, who was defeated easily by Gogeta. So Gogeta can't be just (Goku+Vegeta)x5. I'm pretty sure (Goku+Vegeta)x10 can work better.

What do you mean? You just proved that SSJ Gogeta = 500x base and that SSJ3 Goku = 400x base. This means that SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Goku. Why wouldn't it make sense for Janenba to stomp SSJ3 Goku and not SSJ Gogeta when SSJ Gogeta is stronger?

I did not guess the fusion formula. I derived it based on the GT Perfect Files, official sources of information. If you make C=10 instead of 5, then that's a 20x increase, not a 10x. Then you can argue that "tens" of times can mean more than 10 including 20. Then, I showed above again that in both of the pages of the GT Perfect Files, one says "tens of times", and the other says "decina" which means 10.

[dragonball0900]

I think you are getting it wrong with how gaps work in Dragon Ball. The gap depends on percentages, not simple additions. For example, Vegeta got stomped by Recoome because he was only 75% of Recoome's power. (30 is 75% of 40). That's how it always has been in Dragon Ball.

For example, Goku is 180,000 with kaioken against Ginyu's 120,000. That's just +60,000 of difference. 150,000,000 is SSJ Goku in his fight against Frieza's 120,000,000. That's like +3,000,000 of difference, yet the fight was more even than the Ginyu fight. Again, it's all because percentages. The adding numbers get wider because the numbers themselves are wider.

Putting it more simple:

A power level of 10,000 against a power level of 5,000. That's twice someone's strenght.

A power level of 1,000,000,000 against a power level of 500,000,000. That's also twice someone's strenght. But the result of the fight is the same in both cases. That's because the latter fighter is just 50% of the former one.

What do you mean? You just proved that SSJ Gogeta = 500x base and that SSJ3 Goku = 400x base. This means that SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Goku. Why wouldn't it make sense for Janenba to stomp SSJ3 Goku and not SSJ Gogeta when SSJ Gogeta is stronger?

I did not guess the fusion formula. I derived it based on the GT Perfect Files, official sources of information. If you make C=10 instead of 5, then that's a 20x increase, not a 10x. Then you can argue that "tens" of times can mean more than 10 including 20. Then, I showed above again that in both of the pages of the GT Perfect Files, one says "tens of times", and the other says "decina" which means 10.

Because 500 is too close to 400. As I said before, it's all about percentages. 400 is only 80% of 500, just a difference of 20%. If Gogeta is just 500 then his fight with Janemba would be completely even, as well as SSJ3 Goku vs Janemba. But no, in the movie Janemba stomped SSJ3 Goku. Janemba should be 30% or more stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and Gogeta should also be 30% or more stronger than Janemba.

Tens of times is actually more than ten actually. Tens can be 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 or even 100. The word tens is in plurar.

[shadowfox87]

I think you are getting it wrong with how gaps work in Dragon Ball. The gap depends on percentages, not simple additions. For example, Vegeta got stomped by Recoome because he was only 75% of Recoome's power. (30 is 75% of 40). That's how it always has been in Dragon Ball.

For example, Goku is 180,000 with kaioken against Ginyu's 120,000. That's just +60,000 of difference. 150,000,000 is SSJ Goku in his fight against Frieza's 120,000,000. That's like +3,000,000 of difference, yet the fight was more even than the Ginyu fight. Again, it's all because percentages. The adding numbers get wider because the numbers themselves are wider.

Putting it more simple:

A power level of 10,000 against a power level of 5,000. That's twice someone's strenght.

A power level of 1,000,000,000 against a power level of 500,000,000. That's also twice someone's strenght. But the result of the fight is the same in both cases. That's because the latter fighter is just 50% of the former one.

Because 500 is too close to 400. As I said before, it's all about percentages. 400 is only 80% of 500, just a difference of 20%. If Gogeta is just 500 then his fight with Janemba would be completely even, as well as SSJ3 Goku vs Janemba. But no, in the movie Janemba stomped SSJ3 Goku. Janemba should be 30% or more stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and Gogeta should also be 30% or more stronger than Janemba.

Tens of times is actually more than ten actually. Tens can be 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 or even 100. The word tens is in plurar.

It is only objective to say that A > B, but by how much is based on opinion. Percentages is much better than adding arbitrary numbers as gaps I agree, but they are still based on largely opinion and thus are subjective. Actually, SSJ Gogeta would be 25% stronger. If A is 20% stronger than B, then it means A = 20%B + 100%B = 0.2B + B = 1.2B. Then A/B = 1.2. You can also simply do (A-B)/A = 0.20. Here, 500/400=1.25 meaning 25% stronger.

I can try to see if I can calculate a pattern for percentages to more objectively define gaps based on logic. I will have to use the power levels from the manga during the Freeza saga. Still, many feats during the fights, reactions, etc. can be subjective and can mislead the audience into what the "gap" really is. As for Recoom, there was no official power level, but it was stated to be anywhere between 30,000 - 60,000.

As for the "tens" of times, this all going by word of mouth. Vados has said it and she referred to Potara. GT Perfect Files have said and then say it again but say "decina" which is ten.

If we evaluate some fights:
1. Goku (260) vs Mr. Popo (1030) - Mr. Popo owned. Gap is 40%.
2. Piccolo Daimou (260) vs Tenshinhan (180) - Gap is 44%.
3. Goku (5000 suppressed) vs Nappa (4000) - Goku owned even without his full power (8000). Gap is 25%
4. Vegeta (24000) vs Kiwi (18000) - Vegeta owned. Gap is 33%.
5. Nail (42000) vs Freeza (530000) - This one is a huge gap. 1162%.
6. Vegeta (30000) vs Recoom (40000-60000). Gap is 33-100%.
7. Vegeta (250000) vs Freeza 1st form (530000) - Gap is 112%.
8. Goku (3 million) vs 50% Freeza (60 million) - Gap is 100%.

The pattern here seems to be about 100% if the A is effortlessly beating B with no damage. It's 30-50% if A still owning, but can take damage from B if hit. I'll see if I can incorporate this into the current scale for Part 2 and make it more accurate. At the same, time I also have to take into consideration official multipliers for the Super Saiyan stages. For example, it would make no sense if I put a gap of 100% after ROSAT training if 2x is the multiplier from SSJ to SSJ2.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. ASSJ Vegeta > Semi-Perfect Cell which is what it shows, not equal. There's no FP Semi Cell. There's just Semi-Perfect Cell. After Cell became Perfect, Trunks went USSJ which was more in power than Perfect Cell but too slow to fight. The current scale shows that USSJ Trunks > Perfect Cell.

I'm refering to regular SSJ Vegeta, though. It's implied by Trunks he could at least manage something against Cell without transforming:
Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”
Note: Trunks’ surprise at Vegeta becoming Super Saiyan Grade II so soon may imply that Vegeta would be capable of fighting second form Cell even as a regular Super Saiyan.

Also, there is a Regular and a Full Power 2nd form Cell. He tells Vegeta he's going all out and does and visibly power ups, only to Vegeta and Trunks coment he still fodder to Vegeta:
Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P7.3, P8.1
Context: after Vegeta beats up Cell more
Cell: “Seems you want me to get serious…”
Vegeta: “I thought you already were serious…”

[spoiler][/spoiler]

By three SSJs, I assume you mean Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Goku's last power level in SSJ when fighting Freeza was about 150 million. Trunks and Vegeta are both around here as they are new SSJs, both weaker than Androids 16, 17, and 18, but stronger than Android 19, 20. Goku has improved a bit, but not by a lot, maybe 155 million. He spent his time on Yardrat learning Instant Transmission, but there's nobody strong there for him to train against nor a gravity chamber or anything.

Future 17 was weaker than Android 17. The Future Androids did not have the data from SSJ Trunks which made the Androids in the present timeline stronger. Imperfect Cell almost got beaten by Piccolo (Kami absorbed) until he escaped and sucked the energy of 600,000 humans. That's when he became above Android 17 and Piccolo but below Android 16. A couple million is not almost equal. A million is a lot. People have gotten so used to large numbers that they add more just to feel a "gap".

The difference between Recoom and Vegeta was not millions but thousands. So it does make sense for Recoom to take a little damage from a direct hit from someone who is only 10-20k below him.

I'm talking about Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks.
The gaps are big because they do not work on addictive way. Raditz was totally invisible to Goku and Piccolo while moving despite being only 800 points stronger than them, while Handsome Zarbon could at least track Vegeta for most of their fight being 1-2k weaker than him. They work via percentages.

Bojack had a hole in his chest AND was able to stand and do a double ki blast. Cell on the other hand, was bending down crying on his knees after 1 punch. Super Perfect Cell is stronger than Bojack for sure, but regular Perfect Cell less likely. Gohan would also be stronger after being healed from the battle with Cell. Since the Bojack movie took place after the Cell saga, it makes more sense that Bojack faced a stronger SSJ2 Gohan.

Fair enough. But M9 Gohan is not stronger than CG Gohan though, Gohan was not on critical state after killing Cell and Zenkais stopped after Namek (With the exception of Cell).

V-Jump is the only source of information we have to gauge these characters. I did show above that Gogeta's power level was a mistake by V-Jump and that 2.5 billion is not high enough for the math and calculations to make any sense. If you read above, I gave SSJ Gogeta 6 billion.

I think the best way to calcuate their powers is using your own estimatives from Namek all the way to Broly. Using a ceiling (Especially such a low one) may create a lot of inconsistences on the levels before them.

If Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan and SSJ2 = 2x SSJ, then Super Perfect Cell = 2x Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan = 2x SSJ Gohan. The math just doesn't allow for SSJ2 Gohan to be stronger than Super Perfect Cell, injured or not. SSJ2 Gohan got his power in half after protecting Vegeta. Based on the logic and the math, the only reason that Gohan won that Kamehameha struggle was because Vegeta distracted Cell.

The math says one thing, but the story says another. Cell was pushed to oblivion after Gohan killed him. Otherwise, why does Vegeta keep using Kid Gohan as a measure stick?
Also, Gohan won because he was stronger. Vegeta was only a little help. If Cell was indeed stronger, how was he vaporized by a blast weaker than him?

Being surprised at Goku powering up and "shat themselves" is exaggerating it. Goku himself stated in the manga that Dabura was around Cell's level. Goku and Gohan both trained together in the ROSAT. Gohan is clearly stronger than Goku. Being 10 million stronger is a lot. Again, how much a "gap" is based on opinion. Before, a thousand used to be a gap, now a million or 10 million is not a big enough gap. It's still a lot in my opinion and it makes the math work. If you make it any higher, then it affects all the subsequent power levels downstream and then you find problems then with the Buu saga.

Even after Cell was badly worned out by fighting Goku, Trunks still thought they should give Goku a Senzu and attack Cell together, without having a clue about Cell's reserves. Goku should be above Trunks and his father by leaps and bounds.

So Teen Gohan < Goku in Namek? Goten was pretty much fighting evenly with Gohan as SSJs before the Budokai.

Also, according to you the kids are 2nd form Freeza level. If two Freeza's sat on each others' shoulders and put a clown suit, could they hold their own against #18? Because that's what the kids did.

Where did Teen Gohan come from in that comparison? Where did I say that Base Teen Gohan (Post-ROSAT) < Base Goku on Namek? Goten was not fighting evenly with Gohan. Throwing rocks and sparring is not fighting evenly. Gohan was training Goten for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. It's silly to think that SSJ Goten = SSJ Gohan before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Not exactly equals, but Goten was pressuring his older brother making him sweat bullets, flame his aura and grit his teeth. Sounds like they are really close, if you ask me.

Again, it's back to how much a "gap" is considered big for you? Before, a million is not enough, now a billion. SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. That's a fact, but it's not clear by how much. There is no way to put Base Gotenks who got pwned by Fat Buu and SSJ Gotenks who got pwned again by Super Buu, to be above SSJ3 Goku. Goku himself stated that he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted, but he wanted to give the next generation a chance. Putting even SSJ2 Gotenks between 5-5.2 billion would affect all the numbers downstream and make everything much much bigger.

The gap only needs to be close enough to fit all of Gotenks' forms. How SSJ Gotenks getting stomped by Super Boo shows he can't be above SSJ3 Goku? Goku stated he'd get instantly pwned by Super Boo if he tried to fight him.

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P10.6
Context: after Piccolo blows up the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “…You truly are strong…Unfortunately, not even Gotenks there could defeat you…However, no matter how strong you may be, it is now impossible for you to escape here, for the rest of your life…”

How can Piccolo threat Boo defeating Gotenks as a considerable feat if he still weaker than SSJ3 Goku? It doesn't make sense.

Dabura shit talks about the saiyans because the line after that, he says that not even a guy with 4000 kili is enough to beat him so there's nothing to worry about. Yakon is 800 kili and we already know the conversion of kili to BP. Hence Yakon is 40 million, which is below 60 million (50% Freeza), yes. I didn't make the conversion nor the 800. This is all official information.

The so called "Official information" can contradict the manga a lot, though. Shin thinks nothing of Full Power Freeza but is begging to gang up on Yakon:
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

Yet the conclusion is 50% Freeza > Yakon? I don't get it.

This again the question of how "big" is a gap. We already have an upper limit here defined by Dabura - 200 million. Shin > Piccolo (post-ROSAT). So how big of a gap would you like to give Piccolo (post-ROSAT) that would make him below 200 million and still allow Shin to be above that?

A gap big enough for Shin to stomp Piccolo, but be stomped by Yakon. Shin should chop Piccolo down really quick, but be no match for Dabra like he stated.

Dabra is more or less on the Cell who fought Goku level. This Goku blew everyone out of the water and even hurried Vegeta to go into the Rosat after showing only half of his power. If Dabra is 200 millions, then 50% Goku would be below 100 millions. How? Personally, i think the one on the 200 millions mark should be SSJ Trunks when he killed Freeza.

Back in DBZ, there were characters being smacked around by fighters only 100 stronger than them. Roshi's power level was 139 if you remember in Dragon Ball. Goku's power level when he arrived on Namek was 90,000 when he smacked around the Ginyu Force. Goku's power level when he smacked around Freeza was 30 milliion above. This is again, how "big" a gap is good enough for you? A 0.2 billion is not big enough it seems. If Gohan is given a higher boost than 5.5, then the multiplier for Ultimate would have to be higher than 500, but it cannot be higher than 600 because of the Potara Fusion formula. All of it is based on math. If you can come with values that fit the math and satisfy the conditions that allow Gohan to be stronger, feel free to do so. The other possibility is to increase Gohan's base. Do you really think that Gohan playing around with a heavy sword for a couple of hours would put his base above Goku and Vegeta who have been training for the last 7 years? If you agree, then Gohan can be greater than 6 billion.

Like i've explained before, the gaps don't work on addictive ways. 200 millions is totally relative. Being 0.2 bi above your foe is a big deal if the foe is 0.2 bi, as you have a 2x gap above him. Being 0.2 bi above your foe when he's a 5 bi makes little to no difference on a fight.
There is no "Ultimate multiplier" to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. It's him unlocking one's potential and even further:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

How can a mathematical formula be established for that?

I referenced the exact manga chapter and quoted what Goku said inside Super Buu's stomach. Goku stated that he had no chance against Super Buu. He laughed and said he could take Kid Buu. This implies that he did have a chance at beating Kid Buu. He even thought if he powered up fully in SSJ3, that he could beat Kid Buu.

I'm talking about Super Boo, not Pure Boo. Super was above Goku to a point he was no match at all, even with Vegeta's aid. On the numbers you gave, Goku would still be on rivaling range with Super Boo.

[shadowfox87]

I'm refering to regular SSJ Vegeta, though. It's implied by Trunks he could at least manage something against Cell without transforming:
Chapter: 377 (DBZ 183), P3.1-2
Context: as Vegeta is about to fight second form Cell
Trunks: “Father intends to ‘become’ that right off the bat…! [Become] that…!”
Note: Trunks’ surprise at Vegeta becoming Super Saiyan Grade II so soon may imply that Vegeta would be capable of fighting second form Cell even as a regular Super Saiyan.

Also, there is a Regular and a Full Power 2nd form Cell. He tells Vegeta he's going all out and does and visibly power ups, only to Vegeta and Trunks coment he still fodder to Vegeta:
Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P7.3, P8.1
Context: after Vegeta beats up Cell more
Cell: “Seems you want me to get serious…”
Vegeta: “I thought you already were serious…”

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I really don't like to think of ASSJ and FPSSJ as a transformation. Once a saiyan has reached ASSJ, then they will stay that way. I mean if we give every character who powers up a new transformation called "fully powered insert here", then that would be a lot of transformations. For me, Semi-Perfect Cell is one transformation. He may power up here and there, but I'm not going to separate them and try to attempt to calculate the power level for each. Power levels are already very subjective and it's difficult to estimate. Dividing characters further based on whether they power up in the same state, is a bit much. It's almost like separating 5% Freeza, 25% Freeza, 50% Freeza, and 100%. In the manga, we were given the power level for Freeza at 100%, so it's easy to do. I can't do it for other characters.

Fair enough. But M9 Gohan is not stronger than CG Gohan though, Gohan was not on critical state after killing Cell and Zenkais stopped after Namek (With the exception of Cell).

Zenkais can still happen just that they have reached a saturation point. I already discussed this and showed a saturation curve. Goku and Vegeta have pushed their bodies to their limits, so getting a zenkai now for them is quite hard, that it is insignificant. In the Zamasu arc, Zamasu in Goku's body still got a zenkai boost however because his ki was merging with Goku's cells each time new cells were regenerated.

I'm talking about Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks.
The gaps are big because they do not work on addictive way. Raditz was totally invisible to Goku and Piccolo while moving despite being only 800 points stronger than them, while Handsome Zarbon could at least track Vegeta for most of their fight being 1-2k weaker than him. They work via percentages.

I think you mean "additive" not "addictive". Anyways I agree with you and I will try to update the scaling to add percentage multipliers for gaps rather than additions. However, you have to be careful not to go overboard on gaps and keep adding 50% each time a character has a power up or fights another character and appears to dominate.

I think the best way to calcuate their powers is using your own estimatives from Namek all the way to Broly. Using a ceiling (Especially such a low one) may create a lot of inconsistences on the levels before them.

I do use logic and my own judgment, but I try to incorporate all official sources of information as initial conditions for my calculations. Broly, Kooler, and Gogeta were given from V-Jump. Since all three are not canon, it makes sense to use a source that's also not canon like VJump.

The math says one thing, but the story says another. Cell was pushed to oblivion after Gohan killed him. Otherwise, why does Vegeta keep using Kid Gohan as a measure stick?
Also, Gohan won because he was stronger. Vegeta was only a little help. If Cell was indeed stronger, how was he vaporized by a blast weaker than him?

Vegeta uses SSJ2 Gohan as a measuring stick because he can compare himself (a saiyan), to another saiyan. Vegeta's pride was hurt when Goku surpassed him and even more, when his son surpassed him. Not only that, but since Goku died, there was no way for him to prove or fight Goku to see who's stronger. He was conflicted and hence used Gohan then as a measuring stick. If you looked at my scaling, Super Perfect Cell is only very slightly stronger in terms of percentage gaps from SSJ2 Gohan. Remember that Gohan's power was cut in half. By your logic, there's no way for someone to vaporize another person if they are weaker than them. Characters can still get hurt by other weaker characters especially when they are distracted. Same logic for when Super Goku got shot through the chest with a ring laser from Sorbet. Cell was distracted, and Gohan went all out. Cell's kamehameha was equal to a solar system buster. Gohan was holding back because of hurting the planet. Once Goku said go all out, he did, even with one hand and half his power.

Even after Cell was badly worned out by fighting Goku, Trunks still thought they should give Goku a Senzu and attack Cell together, without having a clue about Cell's reserves. Goku should be above Trunks and his father by leaps and bounds.

Goku is above Trunks and Vegeta for sure, but by how much is an opinion. It again goes based on gap. I'll try to incorporate percentages for gaps, but I don't like to exaggerate power ups and give unrealistic gaps between power. They are all still SSJ1, you cannot give a multiplier more than 2x. Their base strength might be higher, but you have to be careful. Trunks said that stuff because he's already been haunted by the Androids in the future. He's not a pure-blooded saiyan. Vegeta, on the other hand, would never ask Goku to attack together versus someone.

Not exactly equals, but Goten was pressuring his older brother making him sweat bullets, flame his aura and grit his teeth. Sounds like they are really close, if you ask me.

No way. Gohan was surprised that his little brother is so strong at such a young age, but the gap between them is very large. Even today in Super, Goten and Trunks weren't even allowed to compete in the tournament. In the Super Friends movie, Gohan was guiding Goten on how to beat Abo and Kado, basic things on how to sense ki. Abo and Kado were only a bit stronger than Freeza. In the end, Gotenks didn't even defeat their fusion, Goku and Vegeta had to step in.

The gap only needs to be close enough to fit all of Gotenks' forms. How SSJ Gotenks getting stomped by Super Boo shows he can't be above SSJ3 Goku? Goku stated he'd get instantly pwned by Super Boo if he tried to fight him.

Chapter: 492 (DBZ 298), P10.6
Context: after Piccolo blows up the entrance to the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “…You truly are strong…Unfortunately, not even Gotenks there could defeat you…However, no matter how strong you may be, it is now impossible for you to escape here, for the rest of your life…”

How can Piccolo threat Boo defeating Gotenks as a considerable feat if he still weaker than SSJ3 Goku? It doesn't make sense.[/quote]

I never said that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks was lazy and didn't transform into SSJ3 unntil AFTER Piccolo blew up the entrance to ROSAT. Piccolo felt that Gotenks had no chance to defeat Super Buu based on his current level.

Gotenks got pwned by Fat Buu before Super Buu. Even as a SSJ, Gotenks would not be able to beat Fat Buu. You are underestimating the power of a SSJ3. The original goal was to train Goten and Trunks the fusion dance to beat Fat Buu. Piccolo even asked Goku why he didn't defeat Buu himself. Goku said he wanted to give the next generation a chance to protect themselves. SSJ3 Gotenks was confirmed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku for sure, but to say that SSJ Gotenks or even SSJ2 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku is stretching it. We know that SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Goku for sure as well, but SSJ Gogeta is even above SSJ3 Gotenks.

The so called "Official information" can contradict the manga a lot, though. Shin thinks nothing of Full Power Freeza but is begging to gang up on Yakon:
Chapter: 445 (DBZ 251), P14.1-5
Context: after hearing that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets
Vegeta (thinking to himself): “Hmph…Even we Saiyans could do a thing like that…”
Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”
Goku: “Hieeh! A-amazin’…”
Vegeta: “Th-that bastard…So he can even read minds, huh?”
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

Yet the conclusion is 50% Freeza > Yakon? I don't get it.

There's no way for us to know if Shin saw Freeza 100%. Freeza was in his first form (530,000) most of the time. In the original manga, Shin said that an average kaioshin can defeat Freeza with one blast. The words and quotes from characters can be wrong. They are regular people who make mistakes. Not everything they say can be taken as a fact. For example, Burter said he was the fastest person in the universe. Yakon was measured to be 800 kili while SSJ Goku was 3000 kili (not even at full power). The conversion from kili to BP was given in the V-Jump, you can choose to believe it or not, but like I said, I like to make sense of everything while incorporating sources of official information, avoiding subjectivity as much as possible.

A gap big enough for Shin to stomp Piccolo, but be stomped by Yakon. Shin should chop Piccolo down really quick, but be no match for Dabra like he stated.

Dabra is more or less on the Cell who fought Goku level. This Goku blew everyone out of the water and even hurried Vegeta to go into the Rosat after showing only half of his power. If Dabra is 200 millions, then 50% Goku would be below 100 millions. How? Personally, i think the one on the 200 millions mark should be SSJ Trunks when he killed Freeza.

Dabura was surprised at Goku being 3000 kili and then said that even a fighter with 4000 kili is not enough to defeat him. Babidi and Dabura know of Shin and how strong he is. Babidi was not worried at all about Shin. Hence, we can assume that Shin < 4000 kili (200 million). At the same time, Shin has to be above Piccolo who is above 150 million. There is very little room for gaps. I know you want to just add enormous amounts of gaps to every situation, but I have a ceiling given by the manga that I have to incorporate and make sense of. While I can throw out information from non-canon sources, I cannot throw out information from Daizenshuu, Toriyama, or the original manga.

Like i've explained before, the gaps don't work on addictive ways. 200 millions is totally relative. Being 0.2 bi above your foe is a big deal if the foe is 0.2 bi, as you have a 2x gap above him. Being 0.2 bi above your foe when he's a 5 bi makes little to no difference on a fight.
There is no "Ultimate multiplier" to Elder Kaioshin's ritual. It's him unlocking one's potential and even further:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

How can a mathematical formula be established for that?

Yes, there is no official multiplier for Ultimate Gohan, I never said there was. I simply derived the multiplier. We know that SSJ3 is 400x and that Ultimate Gohan is above that. This is already your minimum. Next, was that Ultimate Gohan is weaker than Base Vegito who was derived to have a multiplier of 600. Hence, I picked 500, the number in between to keep logical consistency. Please read the guide to see the derivation.

I'm talking about Super Boo, not Pure Boo. Super was above Goku to a point he was no match at all, even with Vegeta's aid. On the numbers you gave, Goku would still be on rivaling range with Super Boo.

The numbers I gave show that Goku is weaker than Super Buu, even as a SSJ3. Rivaling range is based on opinion and again, based on how big a "gap" do you need before you are satisfied. I'll try to incorporate percentages, but if they affect other calculations and overestimate everything, then that will mess everything up. Gaps are subjective, but who is stronger than who is objective.

[dragonball0900]

Just want to say something about these two points:

Goku is above Trunks and Vegeta for sure, but by how much is an opinion. It again goes based on gap. I'll try to incorporate percentages for gaps, but I don't like to exaggerate power ups and give unrealistic gaps between power. They are all still SSJ1, you cannot give a multiplier more than 2x. Their base strength might be higher, but you have to be careful. Trunks said that stuff because he's already been haunted by the Androids in the future. He's not a pure-blooded saiyan. Vegeta, on the other hand, would never ask Goku to attack together versus someone.

First you have to consider Piccolo. He was standing against a Cell Jr, but not able to fight against them as Vegeta and Trunks. Piccolo at this point of the Cell Games has trained in the ROSAT for a year, and surpassed Android 17, Android 16, Semi Perfect Cell and ASSJ Vegeta definitely, given his lack of confidence after exiting the ROSAT he should be weaker than 50% Goku or at least close to it. Then you add 7 years of training and he would be at least equal to a Cell Jr or a bit above. Then you have Kaioshin who is much stronger than that Piccolo, in another dimension from him, and then a rusty SSJ Gohan who is stronger than Kaioshin too. That Gohan shouldn't be that far above from Goku from the Cell Games, given that he was weaker than he was 7 years ago. There are a lot of gaps between a Cell Jr/Vegeta/Trunks and Goku, and Future Trunks did say that without Goku being recovered from the zensu they wouldn't be able to defeat a tired Cell together. For me that means that Goku was way stronger than everyone present there (except Gohan and Cell of course). If he was only x1.25 or x1.3333 stronger than Vegeta or Trunks or the Cell Jrs, then they wouldn't need Goku's help at all. They could've join forces together to defeat Cell.

Dabura was surprised at Goku being 3000 kili and then said that even a fighter with 4000 kili is not enough to defeat him. Babidi and Dabura know of Shin and how strong he is. Babidi was not worried at all about Shin. Hence, we can assume that Shin < 4000 kili (200 million). At the same time, Shin has to be above Piccolo who is above 150 million. There is very little room for gaps. I know you want to just add enormous amounts of gaps to every situation, but I have a ceiling given by the manga that I have to incorporate and make sense of. While I can throw out information from non-canon sources, I cannot throw out information from Daizenshuu, Toriyama, or the original manga.

The problem is that the whole 4,000 kilis not being able to defeat Dabura was not in the manga at all. That was just from the anime, and even if we take it as fact, I'm pretty sure Dabura could've said that number because it's the next thousand number (1,000 2,000 3,000 4,000 etc) after the 3,000 displayed, that's because Kaioshin and Piccolo are way above the numbers you are putting to them. The 800 and 3,000 I remember I read somewhere that it was a meaning in Japanese of "a lot", to show a wide gap between their powers. Vegeta (Saiyan Arc) and First Form Frieza were able to destroy planets as well, and they are way below the 300 kilis "required to destroy a planet". We don't really have to take what that guide says about the kilis. Also remember that Yakon was stronger than Goku and Gohan in their base but they overpower him if they work together. Do you really think the base saiyans from the Buu arc are still below 50% Frieza after all the training in the ROSAT and plus 7 years they had? They are below Final Form Frieza though.

[shadowfox87]

First you have to consider Piccolo. He was standing against a Cell Jr, but not able to fight against them as Vegeta and Trunks. Piccolo at this point of the Cell Games has trained in the ROSAT for a year, and surpassed Android 17, Android 16, Semi Perfect Cell and ASSJ Vegeta definitely, given his lack of confidence after exiting the ROSAT he should be weaker than 50% Goku or at least close to it. Then you add 7 years of training and he would be at least equal to a Cell Jr or a bit above. Then you have Kaioshin who is much stronger than that Piccolo, in another dimension from him, and then a rusty SSJ Gohan who is stronger than Kaioshin too. That Gohan shouldn't be that far above from Goku from the Cell Games, given that he was weaker than he was 7 years ago. There are a lot of gaps between a Cell Jr/Vegeta/Trunks and Goku, and Future Trunks did say that without Goku being recovered from the zensu they wouldn't be able to defeat a tired Cell together. For me that means that Goku was way stronger than everyone present there (except Gohan and Cell of course). If he was only x1.25 or x1.3333 stronger than Vegeta or Trunks or the Cell Jrs, then they wouldn't need Goku's help at all. They could've join forces together to defeat Cell.

Yes, Piccolo did go to the ROSAT for 1 year, but we don't know how strong he really got. All we know is that he wasn't as strong as Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, or Gohan despite that 1 year of training. Is he above ASSJ? Who knows. Toriyama himself said that there's no race except the saiyans who grow so rapidly in strength. As a Namekian, Piccolo still has limits. After the Cell Saga, there was 7 years of peace. There's no evidence to show that Piccolo was training for 7 years nonstop. In the Revival of F, Piccolo could not even defeat Tagoma. Then again, if you go by the manga, Piccolo vs Tagoma never even took place in Chapter 3 of the Revival of F manga. Cell had the ability to spout out Cell Jrs, otherwise they may very well have teamed up against him. Many people have been compared to Cell including Broly and Hatchiyack, both who appeared during the Cell Saga. All 4 Super Saiyans teamed up against Broly and Hatchiyack, but were able to do 0 damage. Then, they always did some asspull where either Goku does an instant spirit bomb or he absorbs the energies of all other fighters. It's not farfetched to believe that this could have worked against Perfect Cell as well. However, the entire point of the Cell games were to go up against Cell 1 vs 1. Goku had confidence in Gohan's power and he wanted him to fight him alone. Cell then became interested and wanted to trigger Gohan's power by making him angry, using Cell Jrs to hurt his friends and killing Android 16. This was all part of his plan. Goku already saw SSJ2 Gohan in ROSAT. If Goku felt that there was no other way to defeat Cell other than teaming up, he may have. When Gohan was going up Cell in the kamehameha struggle, everyone pinched in to help, but with Goku and Trunks gone, only 1 other SSJ remains - Vegeta. If all 4 Super Saiyans were alive and fought Cell together with full power, events may have unfolded differently.

The problem is that the whole 4,000 kilis not being able to defeat Dabura was not in the manga at all. That was just from the anime, and even if we take it as fact, I'm pretty sure Dabura could've said that number because it's the next thousand number (1,000 2,000 3,000 4,000 etc) after the 3,000 displayed. Because Kaioshin and Piccolo are way above the numbers you are putting to them.

Yes, you are correct that the 4000 kili sentence was never stated in the manga, only in the anime. Even so, we both know that Dabura near Perfect Cell level as stated by Goku in the manga. If Babidi knew of Shin's strength and it was above even 5000 kili, why would he be that surprised and say what he said? This is DBZ not DBS. In DBZ, the anime and manga were pretty much the same, both were supervised by Toriyama. Even though it wasn't stated in the manga explicitly, it cannot be ignored. However, I will take into consideration that it isn't from the manga and see if I can redo the calculations to give Piccolo and Shin higher power levels.

[dragonball0900]

Yes, Piccolo did go to the ROSAT for 1 year, but we don't know how strong he really got. All we know is that he wasn't as strong as Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, or Gohan despite that 1 year of training. Is he above ASSJ? Who knows. Toriyama himself said that there's no race except the saiyans who grow so rapidly in strength. As a Namekian, Piccolo still has limits. After the Cell Saga, there was 7 years of peace. There's no evidence to show that Piccolo was training for 7 years nonstop. In the Revival of F, Piccolo could not even defeat Tagoma. Then again, if you go by the manga, Piccolo vs Tagoma never even took place in Chapter 3 of the Revival of F manga. Cell had the ability to spout out Cell Jrs, otherwise they may very well have teamed up against him. Many people have been compared to Cell including Broly and Hatchiyack, both who appeared during the Cell Saga. All 4 Super Saiyans teamed up against Broly and Hatchiyack, but were able to do 0 damage. Then, they always did some asspull where either Goku does an instant spirit bomb or he absorbs the energies of all other fighters. It's not farfetched to believe that this could have worked against Perfect Cell as well. However, the entire point of the Cell games were to go up against Cell 1 vs 1. Goku had confidence in Gohan's power and he wanted him to fight him alone. Cell then became interested and wanted to trigger Gohan's power by making him angry, using Cell Jrs to hurt his friends and killing Android 16. This was all part of his plan. Goku already saw SSJ2 Gohan in ROSAT. If Goku felt that there was no other way to defeat Cell other than teaming up, he may have. When Gohan was going up Cell in the kamehameha struggle, everyone pinched in to help, but with Goku and Trunks gone, only 1 other SSJ remains - Vegeta. If all 4 Super Saiyans were alive and fought Cell together with full power, events may have unfolded differently.

Well ASSJ Vegeta was way weaker than 50% SSJ Goku (who must be around the Perfect Cell that defeated ASSJ Vegeta based on how nobody knew who could win) that's stated when Goku showed his 50% power to Korin. Vegeta thought that was his full power, so when he left out of the ROSAT, he became much stronger that he was confident that he would be able to defeat the Perfect Cell that stomped him, he also obviously thought that he was the strongest saiyan at this time, until Goku (and Gohan later on) showed his true power. Vegeta got all shocked by it. But the point is that Cell Games Vegeta is stronger than someone who can stomp ASSJ Vegeta (which are Initial Perfect Cell and Goku). Cell Jr is equal to Cell Games Vegeta, and Piccolo was holding his own against the Cell Jr. If Piccolo was weaker than ASSJ Vegeta, he would have got stomped by the Cell Jr just like the earthlings. Also, he did train. Toriyama says that Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo are always training, and Piccolo did say that to Gohan during the Mecha Frieza conflict. It would be silly to assume that Piccolo didn't train during that 7 year time skip.

Goku doing an instant spirit bomb or absorbing other fighter's energies only happened in the movies. That doesn't mean these things should happen here and I doubt that in the manga universe they would be thinking on doing things like that. Of course Goku would want to fight Cell alone. But if Trunks said that they needed Goku's help plus everyone fighting together to be able to defeat a tired Cell, then that means that without Goku everyone were pretty much doomed.

And the 4 SSJs fighting together against Super Perfect Cell, they were all way way weaker than Gohan and Cell, and were all SSJ1s, not to mention that even SSJ1 Gohan was stronger. It would be the same result like when Cell defeated Piccolo and the earthlings in the filler. If Vegeta managed to distract Cell, that's because Cell didn't expect Vegeta to arrive after being thrown to the ground. There obviously it worked.

Yes, you are correct that the 4000 kili sentence was never stated in the manga, only in the anime. Even so, we both know that Dabura near Perfect Cell level as stated by Goku in the manga. If Babidi knew of Shin's strength and it was above even 5000 kili, why would he be that surprised and say what he said? This is DBZ not DBS. In DBZ, the anime and manga were pretty much the same, both were supervised by Toriyama. Even though it wasn't stated in the manga explicitly, it cannot be ignored. However, I will take into consideration that it isn't from the manga and see if I can redo the calculations to give Piccolo and Shin higher power levels.

I might be wrong here, but does Babidi really know exactly how strong Kaioshin is? He only knew his father Bibidi was killed by him, and he was also confident that his magic being superior to his father's can kill Kaioshin, which is clearly not the case since Piccolo (who is weaker than Kaioshin) easily nearly killed him. I don't really think Babidi at any instance knew Kaioshin's exact strenght. As I said previously, the kilis numbers are not to be taken that seriously. It's impossible for Buu arc Base saiyans (after all the training they had) and Yakon to be less than 50% Frieza.

[shadowfox87]

Well ASSJ Vegeta was way weaker than 50% SSJ Goku (who must be around the Perfect Cell that defeated ASSJ Vegeta based on how nobody knew who could win) that's stated when Goku showed his 50% power to Korin. Vegeta thought that was his full power, so when he left out of the ROSAT, he became much stronger that he was confident that he would be able to defeat the Perfect Cell that stomped him, he also obviously thought that he was the strongest saiyan at this time, until Goku (and Gohan later on) showed his true power. Vegeta got all shocked by it. But the point is that Cell Games Vegeta is stronger than someone who can stomp ASSJ Vegeta (which are Initial Perfect Cell and Goku). Cell Jr is equal to Cell Games Vegeta, and Piccolo was holding his own against the Cell Jr. If Piccolo was weaker than ASSJ Vegeta, he would have got stomped by the Cell Jr just like the earthlings. Also, he did train. Toriyama says that Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo are always training, and Piccolo did say that to Gohan during the Mecha Frieza conflict. It would be silly to assume that Piccolo didn't train during that 7 year time skip.

Goku doing an instant spirit bomb or absorbing other fighter's energies only happened in the movies. That doesn't mean these things should happen here and I doubt that in the manga universe they would be thinking on doing things like that. Of course Goku would want to fight Cell alone. But if Trunks said that they needed Goku's help plus everyone fighting together to be able to defeat a tired Cell, then that means that without Goku everyone were pretty much doomed.

And the 4 SSJs fighting together against Super Perfect Cell, they were all way way weaker than Gohan and Cell, and were all SSJ1s, not to mention that even SSJ1 Gohan was stronger. It would be the same result like when Cell defeated Piccolo and the earthlings in the filler. If Vegeta managed to distract Cell, that's because Cell didn't expect Vegeta to arrive after being thrown to the ground. There obviously it worked.

Yes, you're right. I went back and read the manga. Vegeta did assume that was Goku's full power. That would make FPSSJ = 2xASSJ at least. Piccolo may have trained, but it's not the same type of training as you do in ROSAT. If he trained for 7 years and was still weaker than Kaioshin who was much weaker than Dabura, then that's very lazy training if you ask me. Goku and Vegeta both surpassed Teen Gohan after 7 years. In Revival of F, Piccolo was still weak and then in the U6 tournament, he was weaker than Frost who is weaker than SSJ Goku. Like I said, I'll try to implement the multipliers for the gaps and may disregard the 4000 kili comment as it was not in the manga but I will always use addition for absorption (both Buu and Cell). It will be very difficult to do so and more research will be required. Out of curiosity, what power level did you derive for Super Perfect Cell?

I might be wrong here, but does Babidi really know exactly how strong Kaioshin is? He only knew his father Bibidi was killed by him, and he was also confident that his magic being superior to his father's can kill Kaioshin, which is clearly not the case since Piccolo (who is weaker than Kaioshin) easily nearly killed him. I don't really think Babidi at any instance knew Kaioshin's exact strenght. As I said previously, the kilis numbers are not to be taken that seriously. It's impossible for Buu arc Base saiyans (after all the training they had) and Yakon to be less than 50% Frieza.

I would assume that Babidi has done his due diligence. He and Shin go way way back. Shin not only killed his father, but has been chasing him across the universe and followed his spaceship to Earth. Babidi recruited Dabura most likely because he knew that Dabura would be enough to not be afraid of Shin.

[dragonball0900]

Yes, you're right. I went back and read the manga. Vegeta did assume that was Goku's full power. That would make FPSSJ = 2xASSJ at least. Piccolo may have trained, but it's not the same type of training as you do in ROSAT. If he trained for 7 years and was still weaker than Kaioshin who was much weaker than Dabura, then that's very lazy training if you ask me. Goku and Vegeta both surpassed Teen Gohan after 7 years. In Revival of F, Piccolo was still weak and then in the U6 tournament, he was weaker than Frost who is weaker than SSJ Goku. Like I said, I'll try to implement the multipliers for the gaps and may disregard the 4000 kili comment as it was not in the manga but I will always use addition for absorption (both Buu and Cell). It will be very difficult to do so and more research will be required. Out of curiosity, what power level did you derive for Super Perfect Cell?

FPSSJ is basically the same multiplier of SSJ, it doesn't really matter where a FPSSJ really is, it depends on how strong the user is. I know that Piccolo's boost during the 7 years of training were minimum in comparison to Goku's or Vegeta's. That's why I have him equal to a Cell Jr, equal to the one that kicked his butt 7 years ago. The gap between Piccolo back then in the Cell Games and the Cell Jr was not that large. 7 years of training should really be able to put him to at least that level, even if the boosts are minimum. I will put my power levels for everyone in the Cell Games to show you how much I have them to each character, incluiding ASSJ Vegeta, Initial Perfect Cell and USSJ Future Trunks, as well as Buu Arc Piccolo, Gohan, Kaioshin, Dabura:

ASSJ Vegeta - 1,200,000,000
Initial Perfect Cell - 1,600,000,000
USSJ Future Trunks - 1,700,000,000
Piccolo (Cell Games) - 1,350,000,000
SSJ Future Trunks (Cell Games) - 1,700,000,000
SSJ Vegeta (Cell Games) - 1,800,000,000
Cell Jr - 1,900,000,000
FPSSJ Goku (Cell Games) - 3,000,000,000
FPSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) - 3,600,000,000
Perfect Cell (vs Goku and Gohan) - 3,500,000,000
Full Perfect Cell - 5,000,000,000
Super Perfect Cell - 7,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan - 7,200,000,000
Angry SSJ2 Gohan - 8,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan (Buu Arc) - 3,400,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Buu Arc) - 6,800,000,000
Piccolo (Buu Arc) - 1,900,000,000
Kaioshin - 2,500,000,000
Dabura - 3,500,000,000

I would assume that Babidi has done his due diligence. He and Shin go way way back. Shin not only killed his father, but has been chasing him across the universe and followed his spaceship to Earth. Babidi recruited Dabura most likely because he knew that Dabura would be enough to not be afraid of Shin.

There's also the fact that Kaioshin is a god, as far as I'm aware, god ki can't be sensed, and the same can be said if Babidi would try to use his kilis system against Kaioshin, I don't think it will be able to sense him. That's quite possible. But still, the whole 4,000 kilis is just an anime made quote after all.

[shadowfox87]

FPSSJ is basically the same multiplier of SSJ, it doesn't really matter where a FPSSJ really is, it depends on how strong the user is.

It is very easy for us to just say FPSSJ is the same multiplier as SSJ, but clearly there is a difference. When a saiyan trains, they of course increase their base strength. Increasing base will increase the power of an SSJ since SSJ is just a multiplication of base strength. However, there is evidence where the base strength remains the same while characters have gotten stronger in the same SSJ state. Examples are Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta (>SSJ3 Goku) and SSJ2 Future Trunks (~SSJ3 Goku). In these two cases, I doubt that Goku's base was below Vegeta's or Trunk's. This means that there are smaller multipliers for different grades.

At the same time, for simplicity, I think Toei and/or Toriyama chose to make FPSSJ, ASSJ obsolete or simply not talk about them. Cabba and Caulifla, for example don't show any explicit indications of using them. We did see USSJ by Caulifla though which is kind of an indication that she's going through the grades, but just at a much faster rate than Goku ever did.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I really don't like to think of ASSJ and FPSSJ as a transformation. Once a saiyan has reached ASSJ, then they will stay that way. I mean if we give every character who powers up a new transformation called "fully powered insert here", then that would be a lot of transformations. For me, Semi-Perfect Cell is one transformation. He may power up here and there, but I'm not going to separate them and try to attempt to calculate the power level for each. Power levels are already very subjective and it's difficult to estimate. Dividing characters further based on whether they power up in the same state, is a bit much. It's almost like separating 5% Freeza, 25% Freeza, 50% Freeza, and 100%. In the manga, we were given the power level for Freeza at 100%, so it's easy to do. I can't do it for other characters.

Yeah, he didn't transform, but it was still a power up. With or without numbers, Cell did get stronger during his fight with Vegeta. It's like saying Freeza was 100% from the start of his fight with Goku because he didn't transform.

Zenkais can still happen just that they have reached a saturation point. I already discussed this and showed a saturation curve. Goku and Vegeta have pushed their bodies to their limits, so getting a zenkai now for them is quite hard, that it is insignificant. In the Zamasu arc, Zamasu in Goku's body still got a zenkai boost however because his ki was merging with Goku's cells each time new cells were regenerated.

The thing is, Gohan has reached such limit too. He was nowhere near death after killing Cell either.

I think you mean "additive" not "addictive". Anyways I agree with you and I will try to update the scaling to add percentage multipliers for gaps rather than additions. However, you have to be careful not to go overboard on gaps and keep adding 50% each time a character has a power up or fights another character and appears to dominate.

Yeah, addictive was a typo, lol. Anyways, if you go with numbers the gaps have to be in percentages. The gaps don't have to be huge, though. Kaioken x2 Goku quits against Vegeta on earth despite being 88-90% of his power, and Vegeta one shots Kui who's 75% of his power.

Vegeta uses SSJ2 Gohan as a measuring stick because he can compare himself (a saiyan), to another saiyan. Vegeta's pride was hurt when Goku surpassed him and even more, when his son surpassed him. Not only that, but since Goku died, there was no way for him to prove or fight Goku to see who's stronger. He was conflicted and hence used Gohan then as a measuring stick. If you looked at my scaling, Super Perfect Cell is only very slightly stronger in terms of percentage gaps from SSJ2 Gohan. Remember that Gohan's power was cut in half. By your logic, there's no way for someone to vaporize another person if they are weaker than them. Characters can still get hurt by other weaker characters especially when they are distracted. Same logic for when Super Goku got shot through the chest with a ring laser from Sorbet. Cell was distracted, and Gohan went all out. Cell's kamehameha was equal to a solar system buster. Gohan was holding back because of hurting the planet. Once Goku said go all out, he did, even with one hand and half his power.

Why not use Cell was the measure stick then? Gohan from 7 years as much water under the bridge as Cell as Vegeta was aware of Gohan's rustiness. Vegeta's pride was hurt by the fact he was surpassed by two saiyans fellows, but why not coment on the fact he was surpassed by a being who is not even a Saiyan?

Goku is above Trunks and Vegeta for sure, but by how much is an opinion. It again goes based on gap. I'll try to incorporate percentages for gaps, but I don't like to exaggerate power ups and give unrealistic gaps between power. They are all still SSJ1, you cannot give a multiplier more than 2x. Their base strength might be higher, but you have to be careful. Trunks said that stuff because he's already been haunted by the Androids in the future. He's not a pure-blooded saiyan. Vegeta, on the other hand, would never ask Goku to attack together versus someone.

Not getting into numbers, Vegeta and Trunks should be closer to 50% Goku than to 100% Goku. Trunks is almost Vegeta's equal and had little cnfidence on going against Cell. Specific numbers are subjective, but them being above 75% of Goku's power doesn't sounds very right, if you ask me.

No way. Gohan was surprised that his little brother is so strong at such a young age, but the gap between them is very large. Even today in Super, Goten and Trunks weren't even allowed to compete in the tournament. In the Super Friends movie, Gohan was guiding Goten on how to beat Abo and Kado, basic things on how to sense ki. Abo and Kado were only a bit stronger than Freeza. In the end, Gotenks didn't even defeat their fusion, Goku and Vegeta had to step in.

If the gap between them was "very largue" Gohan would not be exerting himself half as much as he really was. The new material isn't a really good source to relly on, considering how Toei constantly look down on the boys. I mean, on Movie 10 Base Gohan did better against Broly than the SSJ boys together, and on Movie 12 they needed SSJ Gotenks to defeat some Panzers, while even someone like RRA Arc Goku should be able to manage such feat.

I never said that SSJ3 Gotenks is weaker than SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks was lazy and didn't transform into SSJ3 unntil AFTER Piccolo blew up the entrance to ROSAT. Piccolo felt that Gotenks had no chance to defeat Super Buu based on his current level.

Gotenks got pwned by Fat Buu before Super Buu. Even as a SSJ, Gotenks would not be able to beat Fat Buu. You are underestimating the power of a SSJ3. The original goal was to train Goten and Trunks the fusion dance to beat Fat Buu. Piccolo even asked Goku why he didn't defeat Buu himself. Goku said he wanted to give the next generation a chance to protect themselves. SSJ3 Gotenks was confirmed to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku for sure, but to say that SSJ Gotenks or even SSJ2 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku is stretching it. We know that SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Goku for sure as well, but SSJ Gogeta is even above SSJ3 Gotenks.

Gotenks was stomped by Fat Boo while in base. I think you are understimating the fusion power here. Goku left the earth's fate on the kids hands, claiming multiple times Gotenks would be able to beat Boo:
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

The boys cannot go any further than SSJ, so why would Goku expect Gotenks to be able to transform further? He even was surprised by the fact that Gotenks achieved SSJ3:
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”
Note: So it seems that Goku never planned on Gotenks reaching Super Saiyan 3, but still thought he’d be able to defeat Boo (or at least that it was worth a shot.

There's no way for us to know if Shin saw Freeza 100%. Freeza was in his first form (530,000) most of the time. In the original manga, Shin said that an average kaioshin can defeat Freeza with one blast. The words and quotes from characters can be wrong. They are regular people who make mistakes. Not everything they say can be taken as a fact. For example, Burter said he was the fastest person in the universe. Yakon was measured to be 800 kili while SSJ Goku was 3000 kili (not even at full power). The conversion from kili to BP was given in the V-Jump, you can choose to believe it or not, but like I said, I like to make sense of everything while incorporating sources of official information, avoiding subjectivity as much as possible.

Why would Mr Toriyama put that statement about Freeza and expect the reader to now Shin is talking about the weakest form of Freeza? Shin is older than Freeza, he sure could have seen Freeza's power before.
Also, Shin is strong enough to make Piccolo quit against him, and Piccolo can one shot Freeza.

Dabura was surprised at Goku being 3000 kili and then said that even a fighter with 4000 kili is not enough to defeat him. Babidi and Dabura know of Shin and how strong he is. Babidi was not worried at all about Shin. Hence, we can assume that Shin < 4000 kili (200 million). At the same time, Shin has to be above Piccolo who is above 150 million. There is very little room for gaps. I know you want to just add enormous amounts of gaps to every situation, but I have a ceiling given by the manga that I have to incorporate and make sense of. While I can throw out information from non-canon sources, I cannot throw out information from Daizenshuu, Toriyama, or the original manga.

By the way, on my first claim i meant "A gap big enough for Shin to stomp, Piccolo, but be stomped by Dabra. Just noticed i made a typo there.

Anyway, Dabura never claimed that. Please, povide the quote he said the 4000 kili coment.
And yeah, you cannot throw away information from the manga and Mr Toriyama, and perhaps from the Daizenshuu, but the 1 kili = 50k BP is not from any of the three main sources. Neither is the 4000 kili line from Dabra. The fact it places Dabra as 33% than Freeza is enought to throw the statement away as it contradict the whole power scaling from the Cell Arc. Dabura is stronger than 50% Goku, who's stronger than Warm up Cell, who's stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta, who's stronger than Semi Cell, who's stronger than #16, who's stronger than #17, who's stronger than SSJ Vegeta, who's stronger than SSJ Trunks, who's stronger than SSJ Trunks on his first appearence, who's stronger than Cyborg Freeza. It's illogical to assume the gap was just that tight.

Yes, there is no official multiplier for Ultimate Gohan, I never said there was. I simply derived the multiplier. We know that SSJ3 is 400x and that Ultimate Gohan is above that. This is already your minimum. Next, was that Ultimate Gohan is weaker than Base Vegito who was derived to have a multiplier of 600. Hence, I picked 500, the number in between to keep logical consistency. Please read the guide to see the derivation.

I think use a established multiplier is pretty much a shot on the foot. Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, who's in base is stronger than his pre Rosat SSJ as stated by Piccolo, who's stronger than SSJ3 Goku as stated by Goku himself. There you go with the "multiplier".

The numbers I gave show that Goku is weaker than Super Buu, even as a SSJ3. Rivaling range is based on opinion and again, based on how big a "gap" do you need before you are satisfied. I'll try to incorporate percentages, but if they affect other calculations and overestimate everything, then that will mess everything up. Gaps are subjective, but who is stronger than who is objective.

It's not really based on opinion, more like based on the feats from the manga. Handsome Zarbon can be classified as a distant rival for 24k Vegeta, and at worst he was ~90% of Vegeta. Goku being almost equals with Super Boo just contradicts what Goku said about his odds fighting him.

[dragonball0900]

FPSSJ is basically the same multiplier of SSJ, it doesn't really matter where a FPSSJ really is, it depends on how strong the user is.

It is very easy for us to just say FPSSJ is the same multiplier as SSJ, but clearly there is a difference. When a saiyan trains, they of course increase their base strength. Increasing base will increase the power of an SSJ since SSJ is just a multiplication of base strength. However, there is evidence where the base strength remains the same while characters have gotten stronger in the same SSJ state. Examples are Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta (>SSJ3 Goku) and SSJ2 Future Trunks (~SSJ3 Goku). In these two cases, I doubt that Goku's base was below Vegeta's or Trunk's. This means that there are smaller multipliers for different grades.

At the same time, for simplicity, I think Toei and/or Toriyama chose to make FPSSJ, ASSJ obsolete or simply not talk about them. Cabba and Caulifla, for example don't show any explicit indications of using them. We did see USSJ by Caulifla though which is kind of an indication that she's going through the grades, but just at a much faster rate than Goku ever did.

The only difference between SSJ and FPSSJ is that the FPSSJ is when the saiyan gets used to the SSJ transformation, that's stated in the Cell arc. It does not indicate that the base power remains the same when the FPSSJ form gets stronger. It's basically the same SSJ multiplier for both. I think with Vegeta it was because of a rage boost he had, something like Gohan's, so I think that's the only case, and yes Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time. With Future Trunks, however, his base should indeed have to be stronger than Goku's. He was equal to SSJ3 Goku in his SSJ2 state. Future Trunks would need to be 4 times stronger than Goku in order for this to happen.

[shadowfox87]

Yeah, he didn't transform, but it was still a power up. With or without numbers, Cell did get stronger during his fight with Vegeta. It's like saying Freeza was 100% from the start of his fight with Goku because he didn't transform.

He did get stronger, but the point is that I'm not going to put a power level on every power up, only for major transformations and significant boosts. The full power (100%) in each transformation is what I'm interested in the most which I can estimate using feats and fights.

The thing is, Gohan has reached such limit too. He was nowhere near death after killing Cell either.

Being near the brink of death makes the zenkai more probable and a higher increase, but Gohan was sure exhausted and after that Kamehameha, he went back to base form. Even I thought that Ultimate Gohan was his peak since the premise of Elder Kai's ritual was to bring out all the latent potential, however Super has shown us otherwise. Super has shown that Gohan can exceed his limits even in Ultimate state.

Why not use Cell was the measure stick then? Gohan from 7 years as much water under the bridge as Cell as Vegeta was aware of Gohan's rustiness. Vegeta's pride was hurt by the fact he was surpassed by two saiyans fellows, but why not coment on the fact he was surpassed by a being who is not even a Saiyan?

Like I said before, it's better for Vegeta to compare himself to another saiyan like Gohan. If Gohan can do it, so can he. He needs to exceed where Teen Gohan was at fighting Cell. Goku wasn't there so he couldn't compare himself to him until he came for the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai.

If the gap between them was "very largue" Gohan would not be exerting himself half as much as he really was. The new material isn't a really good source to relly on, considering how Toei constantly look down on the boys. I mean, on Movie 10 Base Gohan did better against Broly than the SSJ boys together, and on Movie 12 they needed SSJ Gotenks to defeat some Panzers, while even someone like RRA Arc Goku should be able to manage such feat.

What makes you believe that Gohan was "exerting" himself against Goten? Even after 7 years of slacking, there is a huge gap between Gohan and Goten. Adult Gohan >> Goten. This is without a doubt. Out of all your points, this is the weakest one. If you don't agree, let us agree to disagree here.

Gotenks was stomped by Fat Boo while in base. I think you are understimating the fusion power here. Goku left the earth's fate on the kids hands, claiming multiple times Gotenks would be able to beat Boo:
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

The boys cannot go any further than SSJ, so why would Goku expect Gotenks to be able to transform further? He even was surprised by the fact that Gotenks achieved SSJ3:
Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”
Note: So it seems that Goku never planned on Gotenks reaching Super Saiyan 3, but still thought he’d be able to defeat Boo (or at least that it was worth a shot.

I've changed the Fusion Dance formula to (A+B)x50 for a perfect fusion with people with similar battle power and physical characteristics. Super Buu was way stronger than Fat Buu. Gotenks in his base got beat by Fat Buu and he also got easily beaten by Super Buu as a SSJ. It was not until SSJ3, that he gave Super Buu a hard time. Goku may have previously thought that after sufficient training and mastery of the fusion dance, that SSJ Gotenks had a chance to beat Fat Buu, but it's still not that clear. In any case, I will be doing a lot of fixing of the power levels for Cell and Buu sagas, incorporating the multipliers for gaps. My main focus was the first part of the guide which used log scales for Super.

Why would Mr Toriyama put that statement about Freeza and expect the reader to now Shin is talking about the weakest form of Freeza? Shin is older than Freeza, he sure could have seen Freeza's power before.
Also, Shin is strong enough to make Piccolo quit against him, and Piccolo can one shot Freeza.

Yes, I too think that Shin is of course above 100% Freeza. As I said, I'll be disregarding the 4000 kili since it was not stated in the manga which will get rid of my ceiling and give me more flexibility.

The fact it places Dabra as 33% than Freeza is enought to throw the statement away as it contradict the whole power scaling from the Cell Arc.

Dabura was not 4000 kili, he stated that even if there is a fighter with 4000 kili, that's not enough to defeat him. So of course he's not 33% more than Freeza lol. If you saw my current scaling, it places Dabura only slightly below Perfect Cell.

I think use a established multiplier is pretty much a shot on the foot. Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, who's in base is stronger than his pre Rosat SSJ as stated by Piccolo, who's stronger than SSJ3 Goku as stated by Goku himself. There you go with the "multiplier".

As I told you previously, the only objective way to scale characters is to compare them and we can establish who is stronger than who. Trying to quantify that strength with the use of power levels is subjective. Multipliers on the other hand, can be derived using math based on other multipliers that are already established. Note that there is a significant difference between Base Gohan and Ultimate Gohan. In Super, this distinction is clear. Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks, not Base Gohan.

[shadowfox87]

The only difference between SSJ and FPSSJ is that the FPSSJ is when the saiyan gets used to the SSJ transformation, that's stated in the Cell arc. It does not indicate that the base power remains the same when the FPSSJ form gets stronger. It's basically the same SSJ multiplier for both. I think with Vegeta it was because of a rage boost he had, something like Gohan's, so I think that's the only case, and yes Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time. With Future Trunks, however, his base should indeed have to be stronger than Goku's. He was equal to SSJ3 Goku in his SSJ2 state. Future Trunks would need to be 4 times stronger than Goku in order for this to happen.

Well since the distinction between SSJ, ASSJ, and FPSSJ has been considered obsolete by Toriyama in Super, it's fine to say that FPSSJ is a combination of good ki control and maintaining SSJ for period of time without losing stamina. For USSJ, there is still a distinction since Caulifla and Future Trunks both used them in Super. FPSSB in the manga does still exist though and we know that is very similar to FPSSJ. There is a distinction here and unlike FPSSJ, Goku does use regular SSB and FPSSB separately. In this case, a multiplier is needed for FPSSB.

[dragonball0900]

Well since the distinction between SSJ, ASSJ, and FPSSJ has been considered obsolete by Toriyama in Super, it's fine to say that FPSSJ is a combination of good ki control and maintaining SSJ for period of time without losing stamina. For USSJ, there is still a distinction since Caulifla and Future Trunks both used them in Super. FPSSB in the manga does still exist though and we know that is very similar to FPSSJ. There is a distinction here and unlike FPSSJ, Goku does use regular SSB and FPSSB separately. In this case, a multiplier is needed for FPSSB.

Yeah, these are the multipliers I have for the SSJ forms:

SSJ/FPSSJ - x50
ASSJ - x75
USSJ - more than x100
SSJ2 - x100
SSJ3 - x400

About FPSSB, there has to be indeed a multiplier for it different than the SSB (which is 10 times stronger than SSG as you said).

[shadowfox87]

SSJ/FPSSJ - x50
ASSJ - x75
USSJ - more than x100
SSJ2 - x100
SSJ3 - x400

About FPSSB, there has to be indeed a multiplier for it different than the SSB (which is 10 times stronger than SSG as you said).

I'm not sure why you are putting a multiplier for ASSJ. I thought we agreed that ASSJ was simply more training and increasing base power. It should be SSJ/ASSJ/FPSSJ - 50x. USSJ is still weaker than SSJ2. I put it as a 1.8x multiplier from SSJ with decreased speed. Berserk also needs a multiplier which if you've read, I derived it to be 8x SSJ2 or 2x SSJ3 or 800x base. As for FPSSB, I believe to be equivalent to SSB +Kaiokenx20 since Kaioken does not exist in the manga. FPSSB Goku was able to go head to toe with fused Zamasu. It might be even more than 20x, up to 100x.