Log Power Scaling - A Different Approach

[Speedster]

I thought we agreed that ASSJ was simply more training and increasing base power. It should be SSJ/ASSJ/FPSSJ - 50x. USSJ is still weaker than SSJ2. I put it as a 1.8x multiplier from SSJ with decreased speed.

Vegeta, Goku and Trunks all showed that ASSJ was more powerful than regular SSJ by transforming to both forms in succession from the same base. If you go by the multiplier logic (base*multiplier) this can only mean that ASSJ's multiplier is greater than that of SSJ. Personally, however, I do not subscribe to the multiplier logic at all, especially the one that puts FPSSJ multiplier below that of the ASSJ. It is stupid to think that versus Cell, Goku could go to for example 65x base but instead he chose to remain at 50x base. ASSJ is a perfectly fine form after all, Vegeta in that form was perfectly capable to kick Semi-Perfect Cell's ass.

As far as I am concerned Super Saiyan is a boost that is added to the base power. Surely the net result may appear to be as if it were a multiplication of the base but it is not multiplication per se and there is no fixed multiplier. With this mindset ASSJ, USSJ and FPSSJ are increasingly larger boosts the Saiyans could tap into. And the FPSSJ boost can become greater with training. Also if you want an example from Super, in episode 38, we have Vegeta and Cabba having equal base forms, yet as Super Saiyans, Vegeta was shown to be stronger.

[dragonball0900]

SSJ/FPSSJ - x50
ASSJ - x75
USSJ - more than x100
SSJ2 - x100
SSJ3 - x400

About FPSSB, there has to be indeed a multiplier for it different than the SSB (which is 10 times stronger than SSG as you said).

I'm not sure why you are putting a multiplier for ASSJ. I thought we agreed that ASSJ was simply more training and increasing base power. It should be SSJ/ASSJ/FPSSJ - 50x. USSJ is still weaker than SSJ2. I put it as a 1.8x multiplier from SSJ with decreased speed. Berserk also needs a multiplier which if you've read, I derived it to be 8x SSJ2 or 2x SSJ3 or 800x base. As for FPSSB, I believe to be equivalent to SSB +Kaiokenx20 since Kaioken does not exist in the manga. FPSSB Goku was able to go head to toe with fused Zamasu. It might be even more than 20x, up to 100x.

Why wouldn't ASSJ be with a multiplier? In the manga it was clearly said that it's an upgraded form from the SSJ, just like the USSJ form. I don't know what you mean about ASSJ being increasing base power. Vegeta was clearly stronger in ASSJ than in SSJ when he faced Semi Perfect Cell, it has to be more than x50 since it's a different grade of SSJ like USSJ, very different from the SSJ or FPSSJ. As for the USSJ, given how USSJ Trunks was above Perfect Cell, who stomped ASSJ Vegeta, who also stomped Semi Perfect Cell, who is around SSJ Trunks, I think the multiplier should be much higher than x2, x1.8 is too small for everything to fit perfectly.

[shadowfox87]

Vegeta, Goku and Trunks all showed that ASSJ was more powerful than regular SSJ by transforming to both forms in succession from the same base. If you go by the multiplier logic (base*multiplier) this can only mean that ASSJ's multiplier is greater than that of SSJ. Personally, however, I do not subscribe to the multiplier logic at all, especially the one that puts FPSSJ multiplier below that of the ASSJ. It is stupid to think that versus Cell, Goku could go to for example 65x base but instead he chose to remain at 50x base. ASSJ is a perfectly fine form after all, Vegeta in that form was perfectly capable to kick Semi-Perfect Cell's ass.

As far as I am concerned Super Saiyan is a boost that is added to the base power. Surely the net result may appear to be as if it were a multiplication of the base but it is not multiplication per se and there is no fixed multiplier. With this mindset ASSJ, USSJ and FPSSJ are increasingly larger boosts the Saiyans could tap into. And the FPSSJ boost can become greater with training. Also if you want an example from Super, in episode 38, we have Vegeta and Cabba having equal base forms, yet as Super Saiyans, Vegeta was shown to be stronger.

Yea, I had earlier written all this already in the paragraph concerning Super Saiyan grades and given multipliers for each grade. ASSJ is not a form, but a higher grade, grade 2. However, after we were first introduced to ASSJ with Vegeta and Trunks, we did not see it again. Even in Super, Cabba and Caulifla do not use it, with Caulifla already reaching SSJ2. This is why I assumed that FPSSJ and ASSJ were obsolete, but I will revert because on second consideration, what I had earlier wrote makes more sense. Cabba and Caulifla just didn't reach the higher grades with Caulifla skipping grades and going directly into SSJ2.

Why wouldn't ASSJ be with a multiplier? In the manga it was clearly said that it's an upgraded form from the SSJ, just like the USSJ form. I don't know what you mean about ASSJ being increasing base power. Vegeta was clearly stronger in ASSJ than in SSJ when he faced Semi Perfect Cell, it has to be more than x50 since it's a different grade of SSJ like USSJ, very different from the SSJ or FPSSJ. As for the USSJ, given how USSJ Trunks was above Perfect Cell, who stomped ASSJ Vegeta, who also stomped Semi Perfect Cell, who is around SSJ Trunks, I think the multiplier should be much higher than x2, x1.8 is too small for everything to fit perfectly.

It's silly to give ASSJ a multiplier and then say FPSSJ=SSJ. Then FPSSJ of course needs a multiplier as well. My initial paragraph concerning grades had already addressed all of this. I said that multipliers for SSJ1 grades have to be between 1-2, since 2x is SSJ2. I gave ASSJ=1.2, FPSSJ=1.5, and USSJ=1.8. I have reverted to what I had earlier as it makes much more sense.

[dragonball0900]

It's silly to give ASSJ a multiplier and then say FPSSJ=SSJ. Then FPSSJ of course needs a multiplier as well. My initial paragraph concerning grades had already addressed all of this. I said that multipliers for SSJ1 grades have to be between 1-2, since 2x is SSJ2. I gave ASSJ=1.2, FPSSJ=1.5, and USSJ=1.8. I have reverted to what I had earlier as it makes much more sense.

I don't see why FPSSJ should be higher than ASSJ, or why the FPSSJ would need a different multipler from SSJ at all. FPSSJ is basically the same as SSJ (with its x50) only without getting tired or exhausted. ASSJ is downright stated to be superior to the normal SSJ in the manga.

[shadowfox87]

I don't see why FPSSJ should be higher than ASSJ, or why the FPSSJ would need a different multipler from SSJ at all. FPSSJ is basically the same as SSJ (with its x50) only without getting tired or exhausted. ASSJ is downright stated to be superior to the normal SSJ in the manga.

FPSSJ is not just ki and stamina control. Goku trained for 21 hours in the ROSAT and at half FPSSJ, it was greater than Vegeta's ASSJ. This a combination of increased base strength, ki control, stamina, and MORE power. If ASSJ>SSJ and FPSSJ=SSJ, then that would make no sense at all. If ASSJ is stronger than FPSSJ but without stamina and ki control, then why would Vegeta be surprised when Goku powers up? He's not comparing ki and stamina control, but only power. Furthermore, if ASSJ>FPSSJ in power, then what's stopping someone from learning to stay in a maintained ASSJ state for ki control? For the same reason, it's silly to not give FPSSJ a multiplier, but give FPSSB one.

[dragonball0900]

I don't see why FPSSJ should be higher than ASSJ, or why the FPSSJ would need a different multipler from SSJ at all. FPSSJ is basically the same as SSJ (with its x50) only without getting tired or exhausted. ASSJ is downright stated to be superior to the normal SSJ in the manga.

FPSSJ is not just ki and stamina control. Goku trained for 21 hours in the ROSAT and at half FPSSJ, it was greater than Vegeta's ASSJ. This a combination of increased base strength, ki control, stamina, and MORE power. If ASSJ>SSJ and FPSSJ=SSJ, then that would make no sense at all. If ASSJ is stronger than FPSSJ but without stamina and ki control, then why would Vegeta be surprised when Goku powers up? He's not comparing ki and stamina control, but only power. Furthermore, if ASSJ>FPSSJ in power, then what's stopping someone from learning to stay in a maintained ASSJ state for ki control? For the same reason, it's silly to not give FPSSJ a multiplier, but give FPSSB one.

Vegeta was surprised because Goku was simply stronger than him. Goku with a normal SSJ multipler for the FPSSJ is already stronger than ASSJ Vegeta with just half of his power. Vegeta's base was just much weaker than Goku's base, and by a lot.

You also have to be aware of the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2. If FPSSJ is more than SSJ, then the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2 would be small, and that's simply not the case. SSJ2 is 2 times stronger than SSJ. The same can be said for SSJ2 in comparison to FPSSJ, otherwise the SSJ2 transformation of Gohan wouldn't be impressive at all.

[Tectorman]

I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this thread’s main topic, but I wanted to just interject my own take on the whole “Grades” conversation happening right now, and see whether it helps or not.

Have either of you considered the possibility of a downgrade between Namek and Yardrat to the base SSJ form, so as to open up more room in the multipliers? Essentially, that the x50 multiplier applies to both Grade 4 AND what Goku uses on Namek versus Frieza, but NOT to what they had at the start of the Android saga?

To explain: SSJ requires two things: pure heart and pure rage. Goku had both on Namek versus Frieza because he was genuinely angry that his best friend had been killed. He couldn’t use SSJ at will yet, but he didn’t need to since he was meeting all the conditions anyway. Since he doesn’t have to put any effort into keeping himself angry to stay SSJ, he can derive all of the transformation’s benefits.

Or to shorten it: “Grade 0”: not at will, genuinely angry, full power

Then he goes to Yardrat and learns, among other things, how to control it and use it at will. But I think he had to accept losing some of the form’s power to do so. A sacrifice I think he’d be willing to make, as the alternative is needing a friend to die every time. What kind of a sacrifice? Well, think of X-Men First Class. There’s one scene where Mystique is in human form (concentrating on maintaining that look) and therefore struggling to lift a barbell. After Magneto calls her out on it (telling her that concentrating on looking human means she can only half focus on the job at hand), she reverts to her natural look and easily catches the weights that he drops on her. Same thing here. In making SSJ controllable, Goku had to learn how to make himself artificially angry. Good for being able to use the form when he wants, not so good for being able to use the form without having to think about it. He even refers to this as the thing he and Gohan have to get rid of (the “restless feeling”).

Shortened: Grade 1: at will, artificially angry, not full power due to divided focus

(I gave it a x30 multiplier, so as to still be easily stronger than his best Kaioken option but still have room between it and Grade 4’s x50. Or if it helps, Grade 1 has the x50 multiplier but then it also has a x3/5 multiplier drawback from the conscious effort to maintain the form.)

So then we get to the Androids. Grade 1 isn’t enough so they have to improve upon it. Vegeta and Trunks finish first and Vegeta faces S-P Cell. Whether you think he needed Grade 2 or not (I think he needed it, but that’s neither here nor there), it’s clear that Grade 2 is supposed to be an improvement over Grade 1 in all respects (power, strength, durability, and speed).

In the meantime, Goku is in the HTC exploring his options. According to Goku, Grade 3 is way too slow. He later dismisses the idea of using either Grade 2 or 3 due to how energy intensive transforming like that is. HOWEVER, Vegeta’s fight against S-P Cell and later Perfect Cell indicates to me that while Grade 2’s energy intensiveness probably does exist, it is probably something that could’ve been handled mid-fight.

So to my mind, we need another reason for Goku to have decided on improving Grade 1. Remember, Goku hasn’t read the script so he doesn’t know that he’s supposed to settle on Grade 4. At the point where he’s explored his options, he has Grade 1, Grade 2, and Grade 3. He’s not going to bother trying to improve Grade 3 since it’s so slow, but he still has Grade 1 and Grade 2. He doesn’t know that Grade 2 can’t be improved upon, and while it is energy-consuming, it also appeared to be worth it for Vegeta (not to mention how Grade 1 has that restless feeling, which is also a drawback). I.e., he had two options: “try and improve Grade 1” or “try and improve Grade 2”. Why did he pick the first?

I say it goes back to his fight on Namek. As far as we know, neither Vegeta nor Trunks have ever had a lengthy fight at the beginning of their ability to use SSJ, while we know Goku did. So it’s plausible that he had that knowledge to draw on to know that the Grade 1 he was using had power to spare that he could use if only he could “get rid of that restless feeling”. He may not have known that Grade 2 couldn’t have been improved, but he definitely knew Grade 1 could be. I.e., that what tipped the scale in his decision-making process.

Shortened: Grade 4: at will, artificially angry (but so second-nature as to be almost effortless), so full power

...

In summary,
“Grade 0” (what he used on Namek): x50
Grade 1 (what they had at the start of the Android saga): x30 (-ish)
Grade 2: x40 (-ish, I’m not sure if I left it at that or if I tweaked it a little, but you get the idea)
Grade 3: x100 (but only x25 speed from base)
Grade 4: x50
SSJ2: x100 (everything)

Maybe that helps.

[shadowfox87]

Vegeta was surprised because Goku was simply stronger than him. Goku with a normal SSJ multipler for the FPSSJ is already stronger than ASSJ Vegeta with just half of his power. Vegeta's base was just much weaker than Goku's base, and by a lot.

You also have to be aware of the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2. If FPSSJ is more than SSJ, then the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2 would be small, and that's simply not the case. SSJ2 is 2 times stronger than SSJ. The same can be said for SSJ2 in comparison to FPSSJ, otherwise the SSJ2 transformation of Gohan wouldn't be impressive at all.

You can either go in two directions -
1. Say that the increase in power for ASSJ and FPSSJ is simply a result of more training and increasing base power with the added bonus in FPSSJ for better stamina control.
2. Say that the increase in power for ASSJ and FPSSJ is a result of BOTH an increase in base as well as an increase in grade. The grade characteristics for ASSJ are visible increase in muscle mass (not as much as USSJ) but more energy consumption. FPSSJ is an improvement on grade 1 without an increase in muscle mass or loss of any speed with more stamina. SSJ=50x, FPSSJ=50x (better stamina control), ASSJ=130x (worse stamina control, more muscle mass), USSJ=180x (more muscle mass, less speed), SSJ2=200x.

Currently, #2 makes sense to me. USSJ is not stronger than SSJ2. When Gohan was in transition to SSJ2, Cell commented that "You're making the same mistake that Trunks did boy", implying that Gohan was reaching USSJ level already. Then Gohan further powered up and Cell got more surprised, implying his power has surpassed USSJ. Furthermore, because of FPSSB, we cannot say that FPSSB is just an increase in base power. Maybe in the future, Goku and Vegeta will just use FPSSB by default naturally, but for now, they are definitely two distinct states. The SSJ2 is still a significant increase from FPSSJ. I'll try both scenarios to see which one gives me the best results.

[shadowfox87]

I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this thread’s main topic, but I wanted to just interject my own take on the whole “Grades” conversation happening right now, and see whether it helps or not.

Have either of you considered the possibility of a downgrade between Namek and Yardrat to the base SSJ form, so as to open up more room in the multipliers? Essentially, that the x50 multiplier applies to both Grade 4 AND what Goku uses on Namek versus Frieza, but NOT to what they had at the start of the Android saga?

To explain: SSJ requires two things: pure heart and pure rage. Goku had both on Namek versus Frieza because he was genuinely angry that his best friend had been killed. He couldn’t use SSJ at will yet, but he didn’t need to since he was meeting all the conditions anyway. Since he doesn’t have to put any effort into keeping himself angry to stay SSJ, he can derive all of the transformation’s benefits.

Or to shorten it: “Grade 0”: not at will, genuinely angry, full power

Then he goes to Yardrat and learns, among other things, how to control it and use it at will. But I think he had to accept losing some of the form’s power to do so. A sacrifice I think he’d be willing to make, as the alternative is needing a friend to die every time. What kind of a sacrifice? Well, think of X-Men First Class. There’s one scene where Mystique is in human form (concentrating on maintaining that look) and therefore struggling to lift a barbell. After Magneto calls her out on it (telling her that concentrating on looking human means she can only half focus on the job at hand), she reverts to her natural look and easily catches the weights that he drops on her. Same thing here. In making SSJ controllable, Goku had to learn how to make himself artificially angry. Good for being able to use the form when he wants, not so good for being able to use the form without having to think about it. He even refers to this as the thing he and Gohan have to get rid of (the “restless feeling”).

Shortened: Grade 1: at will, artificially angry, not full power due to divided focus

(I gave it a x30 multiplier, so as to still be easily stronger than his best Kaioken option but still have room between it and Grade 4’s x50. Or if it helps, Grade 1 has the x50 multiplier but then it also has a x3/5 multiplier drawback from the conscious effort to maintain the form.)

So then we get to the Androids. Grade 1 isn’t enough so they have to improve upon it. Vegeta and Trunks finish first and Vegeta faces S-P Cell. Whether you think he needed Grade 2 or not (I think he needed it, but that’s neither here nor there), it’s clear that Grade 2 is supposed to be an improvement over Grade 1 in all respects (power, strength, durability, and speed).

In the meantime, Goku is in the HTC exploring his options. According to Goku, Grade 3 is way too slow. He later dismisses the idea of using either Grade 2 or 3 due to how energy intensive transforming like that is. HOWEVER, Vegeta’s fight against S-P Cell and later Perfect Cell indicates to me that while Grade 2’s energy intensiveness probably does exist, it is probably something that could’ve been handled mid-fight.

So to my mind, we need another reason for Goku to have decided on improving Grade 1. Remember, Goku hasn’t read the script so he doesn’t know that he’s supposed to settle on Grade 4. At the point where he’s explored his options, he has Grade 1, Grade 2, and Grade 3. He’s not going to bother trying to improve Grade 3 since it’s so slow, but he still has Grade 1 and Grade 2. He doesn’t know that Grade 2 can’t be improved upon, and while it is energy-consuming, it also appeared to be worth it for Vegeta (not to mention how Grade 1 has that restless feeling, which is also a drawback). I.e., he had two options: “try and improve Grade 1” or “try and improve Grade 2”. Why did he pick the first?

I say it goes back to his fight on Namek. As far as we know, neither Vegeta nor Trunks have ever had a lengthy fight at the beginning of their ability to use SSJ, while we know Goku did. So it’s plausible that he had that knowledge to draw on to know that the Grade 1 he was using had power to spare that he could use if only he could “get rid of that restless feeling”. He may not have known that Grade 2 couldn’t have been improved, but he definitely knew Grade 1 could be. I.e., that what tipped the scale in his decision-making process.

Shortened: Grade 4: at will, artificially angry (but so second-nature as to be almost effortless), so full power

...

In summary,
“Grade 0” (what he used on Namek): x50
Grade 1 (what they had at the start of the Android saga): x30 (-ish)
Grade 2: x40 (-ish, I’m not sure if I left it at that or if I tweaked it a little, but you get the idea)
Grade 3: x100 (but only x25 speed from base)
Grade 4: x50
SSJ2: x100 (everything)

Maybe that helps.

Thank you for replying and reading my theory.

No, I cannot believe that Goku got weaker in Yardrat. The purpose of Yardrat was for him to recover and learn the Instant Transmission. He would've gotten a small zenkai after recovering and Goku is not the type of guy to do nothing for 2 years. SSJ Future Trunks was stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek as he took down Freeza and Cold easily. Goku used his super powered finger to parry all of Trunks' sword attacks. This shows that Goku has gotten stronger. Goku even stated that he could've used instant transmission to beat Freeza and Cold, but Trunks beat him to it.

Toriyama recently revealed the requirements and process to turn into an SSJ. It's not pure heart and pure rage always. Pure heart helps increase S-cells. A trigger is needed which is rage most of the time. It doesn't have to be rage, it can just be will power alone. They are not learning to be artificially angry to become SSJ. After they unlock the SSJ the first time, they learn to tap into it at will subsequently through will. FPSSJ demonstrated that a person can be completely relaxed and maintain SSJ for long periods of time without any anger.

I do like your idea of saying that FPSSJ is just an improvement of Grade 1. However, I do not believe in Grade 0. Grade 2 did have physical characteristic changes as Vegeta and Trunks both got more bulky. However, now in Super, we have never seen ASSJ and they all look the same physically when they turn in SSJ. Hence, it's possible that FPSSJ is an improvement of Grade 1 like you said with better stamina and ki control and a 50x multiplier, but this also means that Grade 1 is also a 50x multiplier. As for USSJ, even with the power increase and speed decrease, I do not believe that the power increase is greater than SSJ2. We know this because Cell commented when Gohan was in transition to SSJ2. He said "You're making the same mistake Trunks did boy". Then later, Gohan continues to power up and Cell is surprised and shocked, implying he's going past that point. So I would give ASSJ=1.3x, USSJ=1.8x, and SSJ2=2x based on this.

[Tectorman]

Thank you for replying and reading my theory.

No, I cannot believe that Goku got weaker in Yardrat. The purpose of Yardrat was for him to recover and learn the Instant Transmission. He would've gotten a small zenkai after recovering and Goku is not the type of guy to do nothing for 2 years. SSJ Future Trunks was stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek as he took down Freeza and Cold easily. Goku used his super powered finger to parry all of Trunks' sword attacks. This shows that Goku has gotten stronger. Goku even stated that he could've used instant transmission to beat Freeza and Cold, but Trunks beat him to it.

Toriyama recently revealed the requirements and process to turn into an SSJ. It's not pure heart and pure rage always. Pure heart helps increase S-cells. A trigger is needed which is rage most of the time. It doesn't have to be rage, it can just be will power alone. They are not learning to be artificially angry to become SSJ. After they unlock the SSJ the first time, they learn to tap into it at will subsequently through will. FPSSJ demonstrated that a person can be completely relaxed and maintain SSJ for long periods of time without any anger.

I do like your idea of saying that FPSSJ is just an improvement of Grade 1. However, I do not believe in Grade 0. Grade 2 did have physical characteristic changes as Vegeta and Trunks both got more bulky. However, now in Super, we have never seen ASSJ and they all look the same physically when they turn in SSJ. Hence, it's possible that FPSSJ is an improvement of Grade 1 like you said with better stamina and ki control and a 50x multiplier, but this also means that Grade 1 is also a 50x multiplier. As for USSJ, even with the power increase and speed decrease, I do not believe that the power increase is greater than SSJ2. We know this because Cell commented when Gohan was in transition to SSJ2. He said "You're making the same mistake Trunks did boy". Then later, Gohan continues to power up and Cell is surprised and shocked, implying he's going past that point. So I would give ASSJ=1.3x, USSJ=1.8x, and SSJ2=2x based on this.

I’m not saying Goku got weaker on Yardrat. I’m saying that he multitasked on Yardrat. We know he both learned Instant Transmission and how to consciously use SSJ before he came back to Earth. So if he can do those two things, he can do a third as well, namely, get stronger in base.

I.e., if he goes from 3 million Base with a x50 SSJ form to, say, 8 million Base with a x30 SSJ form, then he has certainly gotten stronger in all forms. Strong enough to, as you say, IT to Earth and defeat Frieza and his father had Trunks not done so already and match Trunks with a finger.

I don’t think the relaxed nature of FPSSJ is contradictory to my explanation of it being “second nature subconsciously achieved artificial anger” even with the new material. Just because will is introduced to the process doesn’t make anger go away. Indeed, even after the whole “tingly back” thing came out with Caulifla, we still have Goku dropping out of SSB to create the Spirit Bomb against Jiren. Why? Because SSJ, whether achieved by the original method of rage or by the practiced method of will, is tainted by hate, and apparently the Spirit Bomb can’t be made by a person with such a mindset.

But we can even disregard that. The crux of my argument, after all, isn’t that “they have to be angry to use SSJ, consciously make themselves angry to use SSJ at will, and make that conscious-anger-maintenance second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. My argument is “they have to [do something] to use SSJ, consciously [do the something] to use SSJ at will, and make that [something-maintenance] second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. In Goku and Gohan’s case, the [something] is “be angry”. In Caulifla’s case, the [something] is “focus her energy in her back”. But in both cases, it’s a distraction that has to be mitigated somehow.

I use “Grade 0” to explain how Grade 2 is apparently a solid boost in all aspects over Grade 1, yet is disregarded for Grade 4. If G1 < G2 < G4 is true, then G1 cannot be the same boost as G4. “x50 < x50” is not a true statement. Yet, the background material tells us that G4 is x50 and that Goku went from 3 million Base on Namek to 150 million SSJ (i.e., is also x50). The only way to resolve that, I think, is to say that what Goku used on Namek was not G1.

As for G3, remember that its drawback was the physical bulk of the muscles themselves. So if you see two people going to x100, the first one with bulky muscles that make him too slow (Trunks’s mistake) and the second staying slim and trim, you would have the same reaction that Cell did, first believing that Gohan was making the same mistake and then seeing that, Oh boy, this x100 isn’t being accompanied by any hindering body mass. Remember that Cell freely admitted that Trunks’s power did exceed his own. He wasn’t worried then because that impressive power was in an imperfect delivery mechanism (a bulky body). So he likewise wouldn’t worry about Gohan’s power exceeding his until it became apparent that Gohan was powering up the right way (sans bulky muscles).

To be clear, I’m not married to G3 being x100 specifically. It could be only x80 or even above x100. I don’t think Cell’s comments should be read in terms of “how much boost is Gohan getting relative to what Trunks got”, but merely in absolute terms. “Is Gohan getting a boost (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost put him above Cell’s power like Trunks’s did (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost avoid Trunks’s mistake?”

[dragonball0900]

Vegeta was surprised because Goku was simply stronger than him. Goku with a normal SSJ multipler for the FPSSJ is already stronger than ASSJ Vegeta with just half of his power. Vegeta's base was just much weaker than Goku's base, and by a lot.

You also have to be aware of the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2. If FPSSJ is more than SSJ, then the gap between FPSSJ and SSJ2 would be small, and that's simply not the case. SSJ2 is 2 times stronger than SSJ. The same can be said for SSJ2 in comparison to FPSSJ, otherwise the SSJ2 transformation of Gohan wouldn't be impressive at all.

You can either go in two directions -
1. Say that the increase in power for ASSJ and FPSSJ is simply a result of more training and increasing base power with the added bonus in FPSSJ for better stamina control.
2. Say that the increase in power for ASSJ and FPSSJ is a result of BOTH an increase in base as well as an increase in grade. The grade characteristics for ASSJ are visible increase in muscle mass (not as much as USSJ) but more energy consumption. FPSSJ is an improvement on grade 1 without an increase in muscle mass or loss of any speed with more stamina. SSJ=50x, FPSSJ=50x (better stamina control), ASSJ=130x (worse stamina control, more muscle mass), USSJ=180x (more muscle mass, less speed), SSJ2=200x.

Currently, #2 makes sense to me. USSJ is not stronger than SSJ2. When Gohan was in transition to SSJ2, Cell commented that "You're making the same mistake that Trunks did boy", implying that Gohan was reaching USSJ level already. Then Gohan further powered up and Cell got more surprised, implying his power has surpassed USSJ. Furthermore, because of FPSSB, we cannot say that FPSSB is just an increase in base power. Maybe in the future, Goku and Vegeta will just use FPSSB by default naturally, but for now, they are definitely two distinct states. The SSJ2 is still a significant increase from FPSSJ. I'll try both scenarios to see which one gives me the best results.

SSJ2 should be 100x though since that's the official multipler. I don't think it's wrong to think that ASSJ is 75x. I'll have to check that page where Cell mentions that to SSJ2 Gohan because it does seem weird for USSJ to be weaker than x2 SSJ when Full Power Semi Perfect Cell (who was probably equal to SSJ Future Trunks or Vegeta) was being beaten up by ASSJ Vegeta, with ASSJ Future Trunks being around the latter's level, and then that ASSJ Vegeta was treated by Perfect Cell like he was nothing, only for USSJ Future Trunks to be said to be stronger than that Perfect Cell. It should be more than x2 SSJ imo.

[shadowfox87]

I've updated. Removed all power levels from DBZ sagas as they are too subjective. Adding gap multipliers makes things worse. Instead, I've decided to rank characters in different times of the series based on feats and knowledge. We can only objectively compare them rather than quantify them. Also added explanation for Ultra Instinct.

[dragonball0900]

Just saw the update, it's better than before, and yeah I agree that the use of power levels can be quite tedious, I also suffered with them in the past, though I managed to have a complete list of them.

Though two things worth mentioning is that Android 15 should be stronger than Android 14 since the former was able to fight equally with SSJ Vegeta and was even able to take the SSJ out of him, while Android 14 was defeated a bit more easily by SSJ Future Trunks, who is weaker than SSJ Vegeta.

Also Tien should be below Krillin since the latter was stated to be the strongest earthling (yeah I know this is debated a lot, but there are actually no feats whatsoever that put Tien above Krillin).

[shadowfox87]

Just saw the update, it's better than before, and yeah I agree that the use of power levels can be quite tedious, I also suffered with them in the past, though I managed to have a complete list of them.

Though two things worth mentioning is that Android 15 should be stronger than Android 14 since the former was able to fight equally with SSJ Vegeta and was even able to take the SSJ out of him, while Android 14 was defeated a bit more easily by SSJ Future Trunks, who is weaker than SSJ Vegeta.

Also Tien should be below Krillin since the latter was stated to be the strongest earthling (yeah I know this is debated a lot, but there are actually no feats whatsoever that put Tien above Krillin).

Thanks. Yea, it's better to avoid the power levels. I tried using the gap multipliers and there was no solution. It made all the results much worse than they were before. All we can do is compare characters, not quantify them. In DBS though, I was able to quantify them using a log scale.

I'll agree with Android 15 > 14. As for Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

[Tectorman]

Just saw the update, it's better than before, and yeah I agree that the use of power levels can be quite tedious, I also suffered with them in the past, though I managed to have a complete list of them.

Though two things worth mentioning is that Android 15 should be stronger than Android 14 since the former was able to fight equally with SSJ Vegeta and was even able to take the SSJ out of him, while Android 14 was defeated a bit more easily by SSJ Future Trunks, who is weaker than SSJ Vegeta.

Also Tien should be below Krillin since the latter was stated to be the strongest earthling (yeah I know this is debated a lot, but there are actually no feats whatsoever that put Tien above Krillin).

Thanks. Yea, it's better to avoid the power levels. I tried using the gap multipliers and there was no solution. It made all the results much worse than they were before. All we can do is compare characters, not quantify them. In DBS though, I was able to quantify them using a log scale.

I'll agree with Android 15 > 14. As for Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

Chiming in to agree on Krillin v Tien. It’s worth noting that the blast from Buu that Tien successfully negated was one that Mystic Gohan felt he had no choice but to try and withstand. Dude might be a glass cannon, but he can hit exceedingly outside his weight class.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

With a Kikoho, a technique haxed as fuck. If his perfomance against Semi Cell is anything to go by, why not go ahead and say Temshinhan > #16?
On the Boo Arc, Tenshinhan deflected a blast that was supposed to kill Satan and Dende. When Boo created another blast, he said he couldn't stop that one.

And Super Tenshinhan got smacked around by Roshi.

[shadowfox87]

I’m not saying Goku got weaker on Yardrat. I’m saying that he multitasked on Yardrat. We know he both learned Instant Transmission and how to consciously use SSJ before he came back to Earth. So if he can do those two things, he can do a third as well, namely, get stronger in base.

I.e., if he goes from 3 million Base with a x50 SSJ form to, say, 8 million Base with a x30 SSJ form, then he has certainly gotten stronger in all forms. Strong enough to, as you say, IT to Earth and defeat Frieza and his father had Trunks not done so already and match Trunks with a finger.

I don’t think the relaxed nature of FPSSJ is contradictory to my explanation of it being “second nature subconsciously achieved artificial anger” even with the new material. Just because will is introduced to the process doesn’t make anger go away. Indeed, even after the whole “tingly back” thing came out with Caulifla, we still have Goku dropping out of SSB to create the Spirit Bomb against Jiren. Why? Because SSJ, whether achieved by the original method of rage or by the practiced method of will, is tainted by hate, and apparently the Spirit Bomb can’t be made by a person with such a mindset.

But we can even disregard that. The crux of my argument, after all, isn’t that “they have to be angry to use SSJ, consciously make themselves angry to use SSJ at will, and make that conscious-anger-maintenance second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. My argument is “they have to [do something] to use SSJ, consciously [do the something] to use SSJ at will, and make that [something-maintenance] second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. In Goku and Gohan’s case, the [something] is “be angry”. In Caulifla’s case, the [something] is “focus her energy in her back”. But in both cases, it’s a distraction that has to be mitigated somehow.

I use “Grade 0” to explain how Grade 2 is apparently a solid boost in all aspects over Grade 1, yet is disregarded for Grade 4. If G1 < G2 < G4 is true, then G1 cannot be the same boost as G4. “x50 < x50” is not a true statement. Yet, the background material tells us that G4 is x50 and that Goku went from 3 million Base on Namek to 150 million SSJ (i.e., is also x50). The only way to resolve that, I think, is to say that what Goku used on Namek was not G1.

As for G3, remember that its drawback was the physical bulk of the muscles themselves. So if you see two people going to x100, the first one with bulky muscles that make him too slow (Trunks’s mistake) and the second staying slim and trim, you would have the same reaction that Cell did, first believing that Gohan was making the same mistake and then seeing that, Oh boy, this x100 isn’t being accompanied by any hindering body mass. Remember that Cell freely admitted that Trunks’s power did exceed his own. He wasn’t worried then because that impressive power was in an imperfect delivery mechanism (a bulky body). So he likewise wouldn’t worry about Gohan’s power exceeding his until it became apparent that Gohan was powering up the right way (sans bulky muscles).

To be clear, I’m not married to G3 being x100 specifically. It could be only x80 or even above x100. I don’t think Cell’s comments should be read in terms of “how much boost is Gohan getting relative to what Trunks got”, but merely in absolute terms. “Is Gohan getting a boost (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost put him above Cell’s power like Trunks’s did (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost avoid Trunks’s mistake?”

I didn't see your reply, so replying to you now. Yea, I don't believe in a grade 0 with a multiplier less than 50x. We already have the official power levels from the Freeza saga. We know the power levels of Goku's base (3 milliion) and his power level as a SSJ on Namek (150 million). This is official and hence, we know that it is 50x. This is not something that can be argued. It's fact. The point of grade 4 (FPSSJ) is better stamina and ki control without energy consumption. Every SSJ form takes stamina. In DBS, Goku states that maintaining SSB for a long time also consumes stamina in both the manga and the anime. It is why when Vegeta fought Hit, he could only use 1/10th of the power of a SSB.

The idea of gathering energy for the Spirit Bomb requires a clear mind and concentration. This is the main reason why Goku has to stay in base. Movie 7 is not canon. In Movie 7, Goku turns into a SSJ and absorbs the Spirit Bomb. We've seen Goku however in the Buu saga as well as ToP, turn into SSJ, SSB+Kaioken to push the spirit bomb without any conseuqnces. Anger is only one type of trigger needed to initially transform into SSJ. It is not needed subsequently each time they transform. Different people have different triggers - anger, will, focusing ki on a point in the back (tingly feeling). In fact, for Completed SSB, Goku has to calm down and control his ki. Vegeta taught Cabba to be angry initially to turn into a SSJ. Afterwards, Cabba could do it at will.


ASSJ was shown to have unique physical changes from SSJ, with more muscle but not as much as USSJ. This is why we can put a multiplier for ASSJ. On the contrary, for FPSSJ, the main difference is better stamina and ki control. In the Cell Saga, Goku went through all the different grades during his training in the ROSAT including USSJ. He found to rather improve grade 1 and his base power but with better stamina and ki control, creating grade 4.



SSJ2 is greater than USSJ, not just by speed but by power as well. USSJ exceeded Perfect Cell in power but SSJ2 exceeded it even more.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I dom't SSJ2 needs to be stronget than Grade 3. Grade 3 is known for having a considerable boost in power that is nullified by the loss of speed, after all. Considering Grade 3 Trunks was considrably stronger than a Cell who tanked Grade 2 Vegeta's kick on the head, i'd say the boost is fairly largue.

[shadowfox87]

I dom't SSJ2 needs to be stronget than Grade 3. Grade 3 is known for having a considerable boost in power that is nullified by the loss of speed, after all. Considering Grade 3 Trunks was considrably stronger than a Cell who tanked Grade 2 Vegeta's kick on the head, i'd say the boost is fairly largue.

I did some more research and found the thread where Herms translated the Trunks anime comics which goes into the detailed explanation of Super Saiyan Grades. This is consistent with what I've written. However, it implies that Broly's LSSJ form is in fact Grade 3 but with ultra-fast speed class.
viewtopic.php?t=22411 They call grade 5 Super Saiyan 2.

There is another source that puts grade 3=10x SSJ: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

I will update the multipliers based on these two sources.

[BrolyKale]

I dom't SSJ2 needs to be stronget than Grade 3. Grade 3 is known for having a considerable boost in power that is nullified by the loss of speed, after all. Considering Grade 3 Trunks was considrably stronger than a Cell who tanked Grade 2 Vegeta's kick on the head, i'd say the boost is fairly largue.

I did some more research and found the thread where Herms translated the Trunks anime comics which goes into the detailed explanation of Super Saiyan Grades. This is consistent with what I've written. However, it implies that Broly's LSSJ form is in fact Grade 3 but with ultra-fast speed class.
viewtopic.php?t=22411 They call grade 5 Super Saiyan 2.

There is another source that puts grade 3=10x SSJ: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

I will update the multipliers based on these two sources.

Can anyone else obtain Grade 3 with ultra-fast speed besides Broly and Kale?