Log Power Scaling - A Different Approach

[dragonball0900]

I'll agree with Android 15 > 14. As for Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

That's the kikoho, which is very different from his normal strenght, which should be inferior to Krillin's, I mean, there's nothing that proves that Tien is above Krillin in the Cell arc.

[shadowfox87]

I'll agree with Android 15 > 14. As for Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

That's the kikoho, which is very different from his normal strenght, which should be inferior to Krillin's, I mean, there's nothing that proves that Tien is above Krillin in the Cell arc.

It's still a feat that did show he was able to do something against Semi-Perfect Cell. In Revival of F, Tien even saves Krillin from Freeza's soldiers.

[shadowfox87]

I dom't SSJ2 needs to be stronget than Grade 3. Grade 3 is known for having a considerable boost in power that is nullified by the loss of speed, after all. Considering Grade 3 Trunks was considrably stronger than a Cell who tanked Grade 2 Vegeta's kick on the head, i'd say the boost is fairly largue.

I did some more research and found the thread where Herms translated the Trunks anime comics which goes into the detailed explanation of Super Saiyan Grades. This is consistent with what I've written. However, it implies that Broly's LSSJ form is in fact Grade 3 but with ultra-fast speed class.
viewtopic.php?t=22411 They call grade 5 Super Saiyan 2.

There is another source that puts grade 3=10x SSJ: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

I will update the multipliers based on these two sources.

Can anyone else obtain Grade 3 with ultra-fast speed besides Broly and Kale?

So far, no and remember that Broly isn't canon, so actually it's just Kale. It should also be noted that while Kale is similar to Broly, her Berserk form is different than the LSSJ form. There hasn't yet been any explanation about it yet. We have to wait until the manga introduces Kale next year.

[BrolyKale]

I did some more research and found the thread where Herms translated the Trunks anime comics which goes into the detailed explanation of Super Saiyan Grades. This is consistent with what I've written. However, it implies that Broly's LSSJ form is in fact Grade 3 but with ultra-fast speed class.
viewtopic.php?t=22411 They call grade 5 Super Saiyan 2.

There is another source that puts grade 3=10x SSJ: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

I will update the multipliers based on these two sources.

Can anyone else obtain Grade 3 with ultra-fast speed besides Broly and Kale?

So far, no and remember that Broly isn't canon, so actually it's just Kale. It should also be noted that while Kale is similar to Broly, her Berserk form is different than the LSSJ form. There hasn't yet been any explanation about it yet. We have to wait until the manga introduces Kale next year.

Does it really matter that Broly is not "canon"? the transformation is exactly the same for Broly and Kale so why would you think its not the same?

[shadowfox87]

Does it really matter that Broly is not "canon"? the transformation is exactly the same for Broly and Kale so why would you think its not the same?

Yea it matters, because information on things non-canon can be different from what Akira Toriyama wants. Things like the Episode of Bardock for example have been completely overritten by DB Zero.

While it is similar and obviously fan service to Broly, the scaling for the two transformations are depicted as drastically different. Berserk Kale has been shown to be much stronger than LSSJ Broly ever was. There are many differences such as Kale being able to control her Berserk state as well. In either case, Berserk is not above SSG. It's not clear until the manga shows us the same scene and whether Goku will use SSJ3 or SSG to fight Kale.

[BrolyKale]

Does it really matter that Broly is not "canon"? the transformation is exactly the same for Broly and Kale so why would you think its not the same?

Yea it matters, because information on things non-canon can be different from what Akira Toriyama wants. Things like the Episode of Bardock for example have been completely overritten by DB Zero.

While it is similar and obviously fan service to Broly, the scaling for the two transformations are depicted as drastically different. Berserk Kale has been shown to be much stronger than LSSJ Broly ever was. There are many differences such as Kale being able to control her Berserk state as well. In either case, Berserk is not above SSG. It's not clear until the manga shows us the same scene and whether Goku will use SSJ3 or SSG to fight Kale.

Kale is probably stronger because her base form is much stronger than Broly's base form. There's no reason to change anything about the transformation they both work the same way. Overflowing ki, green hair, not losing speed, there are no differences at all.

[shadowfox87]

While it is similar and obviously fan service to Broly, the scaling for the two transformations are depicted as drastically different. Berserk Kale has been shown to be much stronger than LSSJ Broly ever was. There are many differences such as Kale being able to control her Berserk state as well. In either case, Berserk is not above SSG. It's not clear until the manga shows us the same scene and whether Goku will use SSJ3 or SSG to fight Kale.

Kale is probably stronger because her base form is much stronger than Broly's base form. There's no reason to change anything about the transformation they both work the same way. Overflowing ki, green hair, not losing speed, there are no differences at all.[/quote]

That depends on how strong you think Kale's base is. It's fine to say it is higher than Broly's, but based on the feats in the DBS anime alone, her base would have to be higher than Goku's base on Namek. In the Revival of F, base Goku can beat Freeza 4th form both in the anime and manga. For someone like Kale, who hasn't had any enemies or threats to face, a shy demeanor, it's doubtful that she has gotten that much training to increase her base that much. Then you can argue that all saiyans from Universe 6 are just different and have higher bases genetically. I just don't like that explanation though. Cabba was able to spar with Vegeta in his base, but Vegeta was obviously holding back.

[dragonball0900]

I'll agree with Android 15 > 14. As for Krillin > Tien, that may have been true at some point, but I think it no longer applies. In the Cell Saga, Tien held off Semi-Perfect Cell using Kihoho. That's the only reason that he's above Krillin. In the Buu saga, Tien deflected a blast from Buu to save Gohan, Dende, Satan, etc. In DBS, he has fought off more soldiers in Revival of F and lasted longer in the ToP.

That's the kikoho, which is very different from his normal strenght, which should be inferior to Krillin's, I mean, there's nothing that proves that Tien is above Krillin in the Cell arc.

It's still a feat that did show he was able to do something against Semi-Perfect Cell. In Revival of F, Tien even saves Krillin from Freeza's soldiers.

That feat also puts him above Android 16, who did nothing against Semi Perfect Cell. If Tien is stronger than Krillin just because of that, then he is stronger than the androids and the SSJs too, which is not the case. Krillin is also quite rusty in ROF, that doesn't mean he is weaker than Tien.

[BrolyKale]

That depends on how strong you think Kale's base is. It's fine to say it is higher than Broly's, but based on the feats in the DBS anime alone, her base would have to be higher than Goku's base on Namek. In the Revival of F, base Goku can beat Freeza 4th form both in the anime and manga. For someone like Kale, who hasn't had any enemies or threats to face, a shy demeanor, it's doubtful that she has gotten that much training to increase her base that much. Then you can argue that all saiyans from Universe 6 are just different and have higher bases genetically. I just don't like that explanation though. Cabba was able to spar with Vegeta in his base, but Vegeta was obviously holding back.

Maybe she was just born strong. But at the end I see no difference whatsoever between Kale's SSJ/Boso/Berserker and Broly's LSSJ form.

[Tectorman]

I’m not saying Goku got weaker on Yardrat. I’m saying that he multitasked on Yardrat. We know he both learned Instant Transmission and how to consciously use SSJ before he came back to Earth. So if he can do those two things, he can do a third as well, namely, get stronger in base.

I.e., if he goes from 3 million Base with a x50 SSJ form to, say, 8 million Base with a x30 SSJ form, then he has certainly gotten stronger in all forms. Strong enough to, as you say, IT to Earth and defeat Frieza and his father had Trunks not done so already and match Trunks with a finger.

I don’t think the relaxed nature of FPSSJ is contradictory to my explanation of it being “second nature subconsciously achieved artificial anger” even with the new material. Just because will is introduced to the process doesn’t make anger go away. Indeed, even after the whole “tingly back” thing came out with Caulifla, we still have Goku dropping out of SSB to create the Spirit Bomb against Jiren. Why? Because SSJ, whether achieved by the original method of rage or by the practiced method of will, is tainted by hate, and apparently the Spirit Bomb can’t be made by a person with such a mindset.

But we can even disregard that. The crux of my argument, after all, isn’t that “they have to be angry to use SSJ, consciously make themselves angry to use SSJ at will, and make that conscious-anger-maintenance second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. My argument is “they have to [do something] to use SSJ, consciously [do the something] to use SSJ at will, and make that [something-maintenance] second nature to use SSJ at will while keeping its full power”. In Goku and Gohan’s case, the [something] is “be angry”. In Caulifla’s case, the [something] is “focus her energy in her back”. But in both cases, it’s a distraction that has to be mitigated somehow.

I use “Grade 0” to explain how Grade 2 is apparently a solid boost in all aspects over Grade 1, yet is disregarded for Grade 4. If G1 < G2 < G4 is true, then G1 cannot be the same boost as G4. “x50 < x50” is not a true statement. Yet, the background material tells us that G4 is x50 and that Goku went from 3 million Base on Namek to 150 million SSJ (i.e., is also x50). The only way to resolve that, I think, is to say that what Goku used on Namek was not G1.

As for G3, remember that its drawback was the physical bulk of the muscles themselves. So if you see two people going to x100, the first one with bulky muscles that make him too slow (Trunks’s mistake) and the second staying slim and trim, you would have the same reaction that Cell did, first believing that Gohan was making the same mistake and then seeing that, Oh boy, this x100 isn’t being accompanied by any hindering body mass. Remember that Cell freely admitted that Trunks’s power did exceed his own. He wasn’t worried then because that impressive power was in an imperfect delivery mechanism (a bulky body). So he likewise wouldn’t worry about Gohan’s power exceeding his until it became apparent that Gohan was powering up the right way (sans bulky muscles).

To be clear, I’m not married to G3 being x100 specifically. It could be only x80 or even above x100. I don’t think Cell’s comments should be read in terms of “how much boost is Gohan getting relative to what Trunks got”, but merely in absolute terms. “Is Gohan getting a boost (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost put him above Cell’s power like Trunks’s did (nevermind how much)?” “Does this boost avoid Trunks’s mistake?”

I didn't see your reply, so replying to you now. Yea, I don't believe in a grade 0 with a multiplier less than 50x. We already have the official power levels from the Freeza saga. We know the power levels of Goku's base (3 milliion) and his power level as a SSJ on Namek (150 million). This is official and hence, we know that it is 50x. This is not something that can be argued. It's fact. The point of grade 4 (FPSSJ) is better stamina and ki control without energy consumption. Every SSJ form takes stamina. In DBS, Goku states that maintaining SSB for a long time also consumes stamina in both the manga and the anime. It is why when Vegeta fought Hit, he could only use 1/10th of the power of a SSB.

The idea of gathering energy for the Spirit Bomb requires a clear mind and concentration. This is the main reason why Goku has to stay in base. Movie 7 is not canon. In Movie 7, Goku turns into a SSJ and absorbs the Spirit Bomb. We've seen Goku however in the Buu saga as well as ToP, turn into SSJ, SSB+Kaioken to push the spirit bomb without any conseuqnces. Anger is only one type of trigger needed to initially transform into SSJ. It is not needed subsequently each time they transform. Different people have different triggers - anger, will, focusing ki on a point in the back (tingly feeling). In fact, for Completed SSB, Goku has to calm down and control his ki. Vegeta taught Cabba to be angry initially to turn into a SSJ. Afterwards, Cabba could do it at will.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

ASSJ was shown to have unique physical changes from SSJ, with more muscle but not as much as USSJ. This is why we can put a multiplier for ASSJ. On the contrary, for FPSSJ, the main difference is better stamina and ki control. In the Cell Saga, Goku went through all the different grades during his training in the ROSAT including USSJ. He found to rather improve grade 1 and his base power but with better stamina and ki control, creating grade 4.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

SSJ2 is greater than USSJ, not just by speed but by power as well. USSJ exceeded Perfect Cell in power but SSJ2 exceeded it even more.

Okay, I can’t quite tell if you’re agreeing with me or not, so I’ll just explain my position again.

You are saying that you do not buy the idea of a Grade 0 that is less than x50. I agree. You are saying that we know Goku went from 3 million to 150 million, showing that the SSJ he had on Namek was x50. I agree. I have never said that my hypothetical Grade 0 wasn’t x50. I was always saying that Grade 0 WAS x50 and that that boost dropped as of Grade 1. That Goku didn’t start using Grade 1 until AFTER Namek.

I.e., G1 < G2 < G4 (x50) = G0 (x50).

I’m saying that both Grade 0 and Grade 4 are x50 and I was never not saying that. Sorry if that seemed redundant, but I want to make sure I’m getting this point across because it seemed like you thought I was saying something else.

According to the explanation we have from Krillin in the episode in question, Goku dropped out of SSB because the form is tainted by hate. It’s not a matter of concentration, but a matter of incompatibility. (Also, who said anything about Movie 7?) But again, that was never my point. Using SSJ consciously requires [doing something]. It doesn’t matter whether the [something] is rage or will or back muscles, just that that trigger be fulfilled. If you can fulfill that trigger with minimal effort and make the form as easy to maintain as your natural state, then the trigger isn’t a distraction. If you can’t, it is a distraction and therefore negatively hampers your ability to fight, which I represented as a x3/5 modifier (again, just to make the math neater).

Again, yes, we know what Goku did in the HTC as far as exploring the different forms and deciding to focus on improving Grade 1 and thereby creating Grade 4. I’m not talking about what we know after the fact. I’m talking about what Goku knew at the time while he was still making that decision. At the time, Goku did not know that Grade 2 could not be improved. At the time, Goku did not know that Grade 1 could be improved. So there needs to be some reason in-universe for Goku to have picked Grade 1.

I mean, let’s look at it the other way. Let’s say Grade 1 is x50 and Grade 2 is 1.3x that (so x65 in total). Grade 2 takes energy to use but is more powerful. Grade 1 takes almost as much but isn’t as powerful. Goku gets it into his head to try and make Grade 1 easy to maintain. Okay, how does he know that there’s no such thing as “making Grade 2 easy to maintain”? How does he know that’s impossible? And if he doesn’t, then why would he pick “making the weaker form natural” over “making the stronger form natural”?

That’s why I’m advocating my hypothetical “Grade 0”. Because it provides that necessary inside knowledge to give Goku a reason to have gone the route he did.

As for SSJ2 versus Grade 3, I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying. Yes, Gohan’s SSJ2 was extremely more powerful than Trunks’s Grade 3. We are in 100% agreement there. I’m just saying that that isn’t a function of the magnitude of the respective boosts.

Let me put it this way. Which is a more powerful boost, Kaioken x2 or Kaioken x4? Pretty obvious answer; Kaioken x4. So who was stronger, Goku using Kaioken x4 against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc (32,000) or Goku using Kaioken x2 against Captain Ginyu in the Namek arc (180,000)? Again, pretty obvious; Kaio x2 Goku on Namek. Why? Because of the difference in the two bases.

So it’s the same thing with Gohan and Trunks. I’m saying that Gohan’s Base was much greater than Trunks’s, to the point that even if both SSJ2 and Grade 3 are x100 (or even if Grade 3 provided an even larger boost), SSJ2 Gohan was still much more powerful than Grade 3 Trunks ever got.

[shadowfox87]

Okay, I can’t quite tell if you’re agreeing with me or not, so I’ll just explain my position again.

You are saying that you do not buy the idea of a Grade 0 that is less than x50. I agree. You are saying that we know Goku went from 3 million to 150 million, showing that the SSJ he had on Namek was x50. I agree. I have never said that my hypothetical Grade 0 wasn’t x50. I was always saying that Grade 0 WAS x50 and that that boost dropped as of Grade 1. That Goku didn’t start using Grade 1 until AFTER Namek.

I.e., G1 < G2 < G4 (x50) = G0 (x50).

I’m saying that both Grade 0 and Grade 4 are x50 and I was never not saying that. Sorry if that seemed redundant, but I want to make sure I’m getting this point across because it seemed like you thought I was saying something else.

According to the explanation we have from Krillin in the episode in question, Goku dropped out of SSB because the form is tainted by hate. It’s not a matter of concentration, but a matter of incompatibility. (Also, who said anything about Movie 7?) But again, that was never my point. Using SSJ consciously requires [doing something]. It doesn’t matter whether the [something] is rage or will or back muscles, just that that trigger be fulfilled. If you can fulfill that trigger with minimal effort and make the form as easy to maintain as your natural state, then the trigger isn’t a distraction. If you can’t, it is a distraction and therefore negatively hampers your ability to fight, which I represented as a x3/5 modifier (again, just to make the math neater).

Again, yes, we know what Goku did in the HTC as far as exploring the different forms and deciding to focus on improving Grade 1 and thereby creating Grade 4. I’m not talking about what we know after the fact. I’m talking about what Goku knew at the time while he was still making that decision. At the time, Goku did not know that Grade 2 could not be improved. At the time, Goku did not know that Grade 1 could be improved. So there needs to be some reason in-universe for Goku to have picked Grade 1.

I mean, let’s look at it the other way. Let’s say Grade 1 is x50 and Grade 2 is 1.3x that (so x65 in total). Grade 2 takes energy to use but is more powerful. Grade 1 takes almost as much but isn’t as powerful. Goku gets it into his head to try and make Grade 1 easy to maintain. Okay, how does he know that there’s no such thing as “making Grade 2 easy to maintain”? How does he know that’s impossible? And if he doesn’t, then why would he pick “making the weaker form natural” over “making the stronger form natural”?

That’s why I’m advocating my hypothetical “Grade 0”. Because it provides that necessary inside knowledge to give Goku a reason to have gone the route he did.

As for SSJ2 versus Grade 3, I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying. Yes, Gohan’s SSJ2 was extremely more powerful than Trunks’s Grade 3. We are in 100% agreement there. I’m just saying that that isn’t a function of the magnitude of the respective boosts.

Let me put it this way. Which is a more powerful boost, Kaioken x2 or Kaioken x4? Pretty obvious answer; Kaioken x4. So who was stronger, Goku using Kaioken x4 against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc (32,000) or Goku using Kaioken x2 against Captain Ginyu in the Namek arc (180,000)? Again, pretty obvious; Kaio x2 Goku on Namek. Why? Because of the difference in the two bases.

So it’s the same thing with Gohan and Trunks. I’m saying that Gohan’s Base was much greater than Trunks’s, to the point that even if both SSJ2 and Grade 3 are x100 (or even if Grade 3 provided an even larger boost), SSJ2 Gohan was still much more powerful than Grade 3 Trunks ever got.

The thing is that these "grades" aren't fan-made. They were provided by a book that was translated by Herms a long time ago. Thus, I cannot believe in a grade 0 nor can I believe that grade 1 has multiplier less than 50x. The grade that Goku used on Namek was grade 1. Your reasoning for why Goku selected grade 1 to improve rather than grade 2 makes sense. However, it's implied that grade 1 had the best balance which is why he selected to improve it. Also, I've retracted what I said earlier and now am in agreement that USSJ > SSJ2 given the same base. Based on the sources I found above, USSJ=10xSSJ but with slower speed.

[buutenks]

I think, Super is way to inconsistent to provide a decent power scaling chart. You can make power tiers, but to show how much stronger one char is compared to the other is impossible.

Z on the other hand is pretty consistent, the manga anyways.

[shadowfox87]

I think, Super is way to inconsistent to provide a decent power scaling chart. You can make power tiers, but to show how much stronger one char is compared to the other is impossible.

Z on the other hand is pretty consistent, the manga anyways.

Z quantified each individual with the use of power levels. In Super, you cannot quantify, you can only compare. With the use of multipliers we can mathematically compare how much stronger someone is. With feats and other information from databooks, this can be further be narrowed down. That is the purpose of a log scale. The inconsistency in Super lies with the anime due to fan service by Toei. The manga has not shown this inconsistency. I have referenced all the chapters and episodes in the first post as evidence. If you think there is an inconsistency, point it out.

[buutenks]

Z quantified each individual with the use of power levels. In Super, you cannot quantify, you can only compare. With the use of multipliers we can mathematically compare how much stronger someone is. With feats and other information from databooks, this can be further be narrowed down. That is the purpose of a log scale. The inconsistency in Super lies with the anime due to fan service by Toei. The manga has not shown this inconsistency. I have referenced all the chapters and episodes in the first post as evidence. If you think there is an inconsistency, point it out.

I know the Super manga isnt inconsistent, just the anime, since Z also had this problem with its filler scenes.

[ekrolo2]

I've always struggled to justify how Vegetto from Z is still supposed to be above GT Goku, even as an SS4.

In the anime, SS3 Goku is about on par with Kid Boo who in this continuity is THE most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This already makes SS3 Goku stronger than Base Vegetto & Boohan. GT Goku, even as a child, matches his SS3 self from this battle in terms of power. Once you start adding in the various SS forms to him, he should by all rights be way above even SS3 Vegetto with 4.

[theherodjl]

I've always struggled to justify how Vegetto from Z is still supposed to be above GT Goku, even as an SS4.

In the anime, SS3 Goku is about on par with Kid Boo who in this continuity is THE most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This already makes SS3 Goku stronger than Base Vegetto & Boohan. GT Goku, even as a child, matches his SS3 self from this battle in terms of power. Once you start adding in the various SS forms to him, he should by all rights be way above even SS3 Vegetto with 4.

Pure Boo is obviously built up to be stronger in the anime than the manga, but he can't be stronger than Bootenks since SSJ3 Goku was not dealing any real damage to Bootenks besides mild inconvenience so at best, Anime Pure Boo is in a slightly inferior power tier to Bootenks(which is backed up by Bootenks saying he was now the most powerful Boo). From there, Boohan was a bit more powerful than Bootenks, but then Base Vegetto was actually stronger than Boohan to such a degree that even a strong blast from Boohan was pushed back by Vegetto with some effort. from there, Super Vegetto was 50x stronger. I dare say that even Base Vegetto was multiple fold stronger than Boohan since he never exhibited any moments of reduced stamina or fear of Boo's attacks, intent on taking on whatever Boo could dish out at him.
It can make sense, but I suppose everyone has a different opinion of how powerful Boo's forms are.

[shadowfox87]

I've always struggled to justify how Vegetto from Z is still supposed to be above GT Goku, even as an SS4.

In the anime, SS3 Goku is about on par with Kid Boo who in this continuity is THE most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This already makes SS3 Goku stronger than Base Vegetto & Boohan. GT Goku, even as a child, matches his SS3 self from this battle in terms of power. Once you start adding in the various SS forms to him, he should by all rights be way above even SS3 Vegetto with 4.

Where does it say that Base Vegetto (Buu Saga) > SSJ4 GT Goku? In general, the Daizenshuu 7 stated Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku and this statement would carry over to GT where Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ3 Goku (GT) and furthermore to say Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ4 Goku (GT). Since SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. I calculated that Base Vegetto ~ 20x SSJ3 Goku. If you say that Kid Goku upon going SSJ4, received a 8x boost from obtaining an Adult body as well as a boost from a Condensed Golden Oozaru (500x), then SSJ4 = 8x 500x = 4000x Base which is only 10x SSJ3 Goku and is lower than Base Vegetto. (Just my own calculations which you can find in my log scale thread).

GT Kid Goku as a child was above Rilldo who was above Kid Buu. Therefore, Kid Goku (GT) > Rilldo > Kid Buu ~ SSJ3 Goku. This is also taking into consideration that Goku as a child is weaker in his child body than as an adult. If you read my entry on this, I extrapolate Kid Goku's power as well as him as an SSJ4 and then his power 60 years later after he's got an adult body again.

Kid Buu btw, is not the most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This has been heavily debated but:

Buuhan (Gohan absorbed) > Buutenks (Gotenks absorbed) > Huge Buu (South Kaioshin absorbed) > Buuicolo (Piccolo absorbed) > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Evil Buu > Fat Buu

[ekrolo2]

I've always struggled to justify how Vegetto from Z is still supposed to be above GT Goku, even as an SS4.

In the anime, SS3 Goku is about on par with Kid Boo who in this continuity is THE most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This already makes SS3 Goku stronger than Base Vegetto & Boohan. GT Goku, even as a child, matches his SS3 self from this battle in terms of power. Once you start adding in the various SS forms to him, he should by all rights be way above even SS3 Vegetto with 4.

Where does it say that Base Vegetto (Buu Saga) > SSJ4 GT Goku? In general, the Daizenshuu 7 stated Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku and this statement would carry over to GT where Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ3 Goku (GT) and furthermore to say Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ4 Goku (GT). Since SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Base Vegetto > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku. I calculated that Base Vegetto ~ 20x SSJ3 Goku. If you say that Kid Goku upon going SSJ4, received a 8x boost from obtaining an Adult body as well as a boost from a Condensed Golden Oozaru (500x), then SSJ4 = 8x 500x = 4000x Base which is only 10x SSJ3 Goku and is lower than Base Vegetto. (Just my own calculations which you can find in my log scale thread).

GT Kid Goku as a child was above Rilldo who was above Kid Buu. Therefore, Kid Goku (GT) > Rilldo > Kid Buu ~ SSJ3 Goku. This is also taking into consideration that Goku as a child is weaker in his child body than as an adult. If you read my entry on this, I extrapolate Kid Goku's power as well as him as an SSJ4 and then his power 60 years later after he's got an adult body again.

Kid Buu btw, is not the most powerful version of Majin Boo ever. This has been heavily debated but:

Buuhan (Gohan absorbed) > Buutenks (Gotenks absorbed) > Huge Buu (South Kaioshin absorbed) > Buuicolo (Piccolo absorbed) > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Evil Buu > Fat Buu

Kid Boo is the strongest Boo in the anime as per narrator & character statements and since GT is a sequel to the anime, not the manga (where he's obviously not the strongest Boo) it makes sense to view it from that lense. With that in mind, Vegetto being above SS4 Goku is ridiculous.

SS3 Goku could stalemate Kid Boo, who's the strongest Boo in the anime meaning both of them are above Boohan who Base Vegetto couldn't defeat. GT Goku is just as strong as his SS3 self from that fight in Base, meaning he's already above Base Vegetto from Z. Once you factor in the multipliers and even with a severely lowballed multiplier for 4, you'd have him stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

[shadowfox87]

Kid Boo is the strongest Boo in the anime as per narrator & character statements and since GT is a sequel to the anime, not the manga (where he's obviously not the strongest Boo) it makes sense to view it from that lense. With that in mind, Vegetto being above SS4 Goku is ridiculous.

SS3 Goku could stalemate Kid Boo, who's the strongest Boo in the anime meaning both of them are above Boohan who Base Vegetto couldn't defeat. GT Goku is just as strong as his SS3 self from that fight in Base, meaning he's already above Base Vegetto from Z. Once you factor in the multipliers and even with a severely lowballed multiplier for 4, you'd have him stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

You should use the manga, when it comes to DBZ, it's canon, not the anime. Kid Buu is considered the most "dangerous" of all Kid Buu's because he doesn't hesitate. Shin was scared of him because he remembers the tragedy of him killing the other Kaioshin. The anime is just a mistranslation and misinterpretation of that. There's absolutely no way that Kid Buu > Buuhan when SSJ3 Goku was fighting Kid Buu evenly.

SSJ3 Goku could stalemate Kid Buu in the Buu saga. In GT, Base Goku could stalemate Kid Buu. Yes, you are right, Base GT GOku is already stronger than SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), therefore, GT Goku SSJ4 is > Base Vegetto (DBZ). I'm saying that Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ4 Goku (GT).

[ekrolo2]

Kid Boo is the strongest Boo in the anime as per narrator & character statements and since GT is a sequel to the anime, not the manga (where he's obviously not the strongest Boo) it makes sense to view it from that lense. With that in mind, Vegetto being above SS4 Goku is ridiculous.

SS3 Goku could stalemate Kid Boo, who's the strongest Boo in the anime meaning both of them are above Boohan who Base Vegetto couldn't defeat. GT Goku is just as strong as his SS3 self from that fight in Base, meaning he's already above Base Vegetto from Z. Once you factor in the multipliers and even with a severely lowballed multiplier for 4, you'd have him stronger than SS3 Vegetto.

You should use the manga, when it comes to DBZ, it's canon, not the anime. Kid Buu is considered the most "dangerous" of all Kid Buu's because he doesn't hesitate. Shin was scared of him because he remembers the tragedy of him killing the other Kaioshin. The anime is just a mistranslation and misinterpretation of that. There's absolutely no way that Kid Buu > Buuhan when SSJ3 Goku was fighting Kid Buu evenly.

SSJ3 Goku could stalemate Kid Buu in the Buu saga. In GT, Base Goku could stalemate Kid Buu. Yes, you are right, Base GT GOku is already stronger than SSJ3 Goku (DBZ), therefore, GT Goku SSJ4 is > Base Vegetto (DBZ). I'm saying that Base Vegetto (GT) > SSJ4 Goku (GT).

I don't use the manga for GT since I don't believe they're in continuity with each other. To me, using GT with the manga would be like using Batman Beyond in a TDKReturns debate.

In the anime, as confirmed by Herms, Kid Boo is definitively the most powerful Boo which throws the entire "Vegetto > SS4 Goku" statement out of whack.