(Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

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TheSaiyanGod
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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:47 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
Aside from the whole "offensive UI" thing, agree fully with these posts.

And regarding this debate about Vegeta's pupils... remember when people seriously thought that UI Goku had cat-like pupils? I think, just like that scenario, we should wait until it's debut in the episode before judging any further.

I'd like to see Vegeta exhibit at least one trait that's new in this form aside from it being a stronger form with a darker shade of blue and having pupils (which I actually like over regular SSB, btw). For me personally, particularly him having the ability to grow stronger during battle similar to Hit (through adaptability/improvement), Kaioken (through multiplication/amplification - though this is the only method that has a limit to it), Black Rose (through pain) or UI (passively through fighting a stronger enemy).

I could also see the form being between KKx20 SSB Goku and UI Goku in terms of power if this is Vegeta's "final form" in the series.
Yes, but although UI Goku's pupils look like those of a cat in promotional images (actually, that was not so clear because the image did not give us a good view of the new form), he continued to have pupils, so I find it difficult for them have placed Vegeta SSB with pupils (with the same shade of UI Goku's eyes) for nothing.

But I would also very much like that this possible new form of vegeta had the ability to constantly evolve in battle. This is perfect for the Saiyans and for Vegeta himself, who trains hard. That would help him get stronger much faster.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you fully on Vegeta having pupils in his new form, I just believe it’s best until we see the episode since there are going to be those that are convinced he doesn’t have pupils, just like there were those who were convinced UI Goku had cat-eyes.

It’s honestly nice to see Vegeta finally get a form different than anything Goku has achieved though.
Yes, we have to wait until it is confirmed. But apparently, in the preview of EP 123, Vegeta still does not have the pupils we saw in ED, even with its '' new Blue ''.

So I believe that this new form with pupils seen in the ED will not yet appear in 123, but maybe only in 126 (in which the title tells Vegeta to surpass even one God).

But as I said on another topic, I do not think these pupils are just a mistake or a coincidence. Especially since it is almost never necessary to draw pupils in the Saiyans, and in the case of Blue, it has never been drawn before, only now.
And now, the same shading in UI Goku's eyes were used in Vegeta's eyes. In addition to that Vegeta is on the side of UI Goku, highlighted compared to the other participants (and are the only ones who have an original art, others are only reutilizations of the TOEI website)

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by Saturnine » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:18 pm

I think a better question is - why are people assuming that pupils define UI? It's the only SSj form in canon universe apart from UI that has those, sure (unless you count SSj3 Goku's pupils, which are an anime addition), but that doesn't mean it's got anything to do with UI. It's just an assumption based on a single similarity and doesn't have to imply crap, but the community has always been all too eager to make assumptions of this sort. I think the pupils are just meant to be one of the more immediate ways to tell the form from regular SSj Blue.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by Saturnine » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:33 pm

Black Hawk wrote: I thought of something similar, on that note; I see advancing SSJ1 as a branched pathway. 1. Either power up SSJ1, outputting more and more energy, pushing it to its limits, yet still technically remaining a SSJ1 (SSJ1 Grade 2 and SSJ1 Grade 3), sort like filling up a balloon even to the point that it reaches its full capacity, or 2. Break through SSJ1's limits and physically mutate the form into another separate form (SSJ2, its upgrades, and SSJ3), sort of like replacing a balloon with another balloon that was manufactured to have a greater capacity than the previous one.
Personally I prefer seeing SSj as either a balloon that's only filled up to a capacity before it really starts stretching, or a glass filled to 1/4th or so of its capacity. Grade 2 is the balloon filled with enough to stretch it, and Grade 3 stretches the balloon further still, to the point of threatening its popping. Mastered SSj instead takes all the water from the Grade 3 balloon and puts it in a stable environment of a glass, which is now completely and exactly full. SSj2 is just an even bigger glass. The difference between a balloon and a glass is that when you leave a water balloon be, it contracts back to its rest state, squirting the excess water out, while a glass can hold it effortlessly at all times.

Guess if you like this sort of mind games you could extend this allegory to non-canon forms such as Broly's - then it would be a glass placed right below a tap, so any water it for some reason loses is constantly replenished up to its full capacity. But this one is obviously completely optional.
If stacking SSJ2, its upgrades, and/or SSJ3 on top of SSJ Blue could yield any positive results, surely it would already have been done long ago; for that reason, I think it is reasonable to conclude that mutating SSJ Blue would not do any good;
This is only if you're assuming that SSj Blue's upgrades, or "mutated states" as you're calling them, are direct equivalents of regular SSj's own. Which they obviously don't have to be and most likely aren't, at least in the sense that SSj Blue has to be followed by SSj Blue 2, which is like say, 2x stronger than SSj Blue. The godly nature of SSj Blue likely means any "next step" evolutions have more dramatic effects to them. I find a 2x multplier for SSj2 to be bullshit too, but that's beside the point here, the point is that we shouldn't assume that SSj Blue was ever meant to have the same development path as the golden-haired SSj with 2 more levels to it.
however, we don't yet know if outputting more and more of SSJ Blue's energy without mutating it could accomplish anything positive, and perhaps this could be what Vegeta's new form is. After all, Daizenshū 2 states that Grade 2 surpasses SSJ1 in both power and speed; it is only Grade 3 that suffers a speed decline from bulky muscles. With that in mind, Vegeta could potentially push SSJ Blue to its limits as a SSJ Blue Grade 2 of sorts.

A stretch, probably, but just a thought.
We actually do know that, since Goku and Vegeta have constantly been doing that - only not via an equivalent of Grade 2 (which is an outdated, archaic transformation that no one's going to ever revisit again), but through anger boosts and various other methods. SSj Blue, in the anime at least, has also been heavily implied to have a modifiable powerlevel, much like Mastered SSj did, so you can just power up to the max without getting bulky unnecessarily. I absolutely wouldn't compare Vegeta's new form to Grade 2, it's just another level beyond Blue, from Blue's own, new evolutionary path.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:03 am

Saturnine wrote:I think a better question is - why are people assuming that pupils define UI? It's the only SSj form in canon universe apart from UI that has those, sure (unless you count SSj3 Goku's pupils, which are an anime addition), but that doesn't mean it's got anything to do with UI. It's just an assumption based on a single similarity and doesn't have to imply crap, but the community has always been all too eager to make assumptions of this sort. I think the pupils are just meant to be one of the more immediate ways to tell the form from regular SSj Blue.
Well ... maybe because the only transformations of the Saiyans with pupils are SSJ3, SSG and UI? And Vegeta coincidentally has none of these forms in the anime (for now)?
And maybe because Vegeta has pupils while turned into SSB in the ED, a form that NEVER had pupils in ANY of his appearances?

And even better, maybe because Vegeta's eyes are with the same shade of UI Goku's eyes? UI Goku who is coincidentally on the side of Vegeta SSB, both featured in relation to all the other participants in the ED? Not to mention other details such as the hair of vegeta being with a different shading and a different color of a conventional Blue.

The point is that this is a good indication. Endings are heavily overhauled, it makes no sense to just now place pupils in a form that NEVER had pupil. It is easier for you to remove something that already exists than to accidentally put something that has never existed (like putting two pupils in two eyes in the correct position).
It's not just "hasty hypotheses," these assumptions are based not just on ED, but on previous and upcoming episode titles (especially EP126), you who do not accept and think that anything is exaggerated.
We do not know what it is, but this is certainly not just a conventional Blue. And I'm not saying that the '' new Blue '' that will appear on EP 123 is a kind of UI + Blue, but there are possibilities for this to come to fruition, especially if it concerns the title of EP 126 and the new ED

It is quite clear in the image below that the SSB shown in the ED is very different from the conventional SSB

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by Saturnine » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:56 pm

Still doesn't mean it has to do anything with UI, this is not strong enough evidence, still just an assumption. We'll find out soon enough.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:06 pm

Saturnine wrote:Still doesn't mean it has to do anything with UI, this is not strong enough evidence, still just an assumption. We'll find out soon enough.
Obviously, all this is just an assumption.

But this assumption is not only based on the ED, but on the preview and in the titles of the next episodes. And there's nothing wrong with assuming Vegeta can get the UI we saw in ED, especially with the evidences we have to create this theory

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by ToshioWrites » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:36 pm

I think this form in episode 123 will close the kaioken gap completely and possibly Vegeta leaps past blue kaioken x 20. Whatever he does in 126 will push his power to rival UI goku. I don’t think he will get UI but by the end of this arc his raw power will be even with goku .

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:18 am

ToshioWrites wrote:I think this form in episode 123 will close the kaioken gap completely and possibly Vegeta leaps past blue kaioken x 20. Whatever he does in 126 will push his power to rival UI goku. I don’t think he will get UI but by the end of this arc his raw power will be even with goku .
Latest image DBS twitter account posted with KK Goku definitely implies it is meant to rival KK not UI. I know the ED has him next to UI Goku but that's just for aesthetic.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by ToshioWrites » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:41 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:I think this form in episode 123 will close the kaioken gap completely and possibly Vegeta leaps past blue kaioken x 20. Whatever he does in 126 will push his power to rival UI goku. I don’t think he will get UI but by the end of this arc his raw power will be even with goku .
Latest image DBS twitter account posted with KK Goku definitely implies it is meant to rival KK not UI. I know the ED has him next to UI Goku but that's just for aesthetic.

Or Goku can't use UI until something really pushes him. Whis even said the threshold rises every time.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by mute_proxy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:33 am

Which UI are you guys talking about, the form or the technique? Because right now Vegeta's form is his 'limit breaker' like the one with silver eyes Goku has. Vegeta may not know the technique, but he has his own equivalent of the form.

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Re: (Discussion) Vegeta's new form - A few details

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:15 pm

Professor Freeza wrote:Image

First take note of the two circles i made in Vegeta and Goku's aura's, labeled 1 and 2.

Clear difference is that Vegeta's has a distinct "star shaped" stuffs floating. Compare that to goku's small bubble shaped one.

Now look at the aura shades, 3 and 4. Vegeta has almost 3 tones of color. Pale blue, the Cyan SSB and a Navy Blue. The last one isnt present in Goku's.

Here's another picture for comparing Goku's aura

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Also note that they actively avoid showing Vegeta's Pupils. Also, Vegeta's hair color change is pretty apparent


Now to throw in my theory:
Has it been said that to get UI, your hair needs to be black and you need that white aura?

I believe that Vegeta will be able to mix UI and Blue to some extent.

UI's power increase for Goku is related to him getting his full potential out.
While Vegeta can get UI and still stay Blue.

Makes sense now.
A counter point to this is Vegeta's line before his FF: "Kakarot can have his Ultra Instinct, I will defeated you win with my way"
The new Super Saiyan transformation for Vegeta to help in warming up Jiren for his battle against Goku with is a mixture of between the Ascended Super Saiyan (ASSJ), the Super Saiyan Blue (SSJB), and the Ultra Instinct "Omen" (UIO) forms.

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