Movie Canon

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

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TobyS
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:35 am

Well sure you can “consider” the og Dragonball movie retellings instead of the Dragonball Manga/Anime... But that doesn't make them the real deal.

Toriyama works with Toei and Toyo (the latter more) and seems to have veto power. Any differences from BoG RoF on the new material take presidence because that's how he wanted it to be changed IMO.

You can certainly enjoy them more but the more recent stuff is clearly more of a current interpretation of Toriyamas vision for the Dragon World, by definition.
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Grimlock
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:03 am

TobyS wrote:Well sure you can “consider” the og Dragonball movie retellings instead of the Dragonball Manga/Anime... But that doesn't make them the real deal.
Actually it does. What does not make the real deal is considering the retellings, as we do not have any evidences that Akira Toriyama was involved with the them, conversely, we do have evidences that Akira Toriyama was deeply involved with the movies. Anyways, at the end of the day, when it comes to Dragon Ball Super, it is all a matter of choice, which continuity to follow.
TobyS wrote:Toriyama works with Toei and Toyo (the latter more) and seems to have veto power. Any differences from BoG RoF on the new material take presidence because that's how he wanted it to be changed IMO.
That is like saying Gregory is now a canonical character because he appears in the anime version, a difference made in comparison with the movies. But the fact is that Gregory continues to be a filler character, he appears there because Toei is free to do its own thing and the author is not deeply involved.

He does have the "veto power", but that does not necessarily means he sees it that way. He gave green light to Toyotaro to bring Vegetto back and to give Super Saiyan God to Vegeta, but both of them were not in his plans/outline. He just enjoys/don't mind the differences, as he himself already said before.
TobyS wrote:the more recent stuff is clearly more of a current interpretation of Toriyamas vision for the Dragon World, by definition.
Again, we do not have any evidence for that.
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caejones
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by caejones » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:31 am

It seems to me that the Z movies are all "What if everything in the story was resolved right here, without any lasting consequences?". For a series like DB, where there is no status quo, this consistently results in gaping plotholes.
So, I consider it might be better to treat them as alternate paths one could take in a game, if one manages to end the current arc while avoiding the canon consequences. Ex, Goku doesn't die against Raditz, therefore Movie 1 is no longer problematic. It turns out that Namek was a quick in-and-out job, so movies 2-4 can fit (Yamcha's gi aside). Movie 5 happens if Goku came back before any Trunks shenanigans.
Movie 6, though... how did Toei even know Dende would be Kami at that point? Toriyama must have told them, since the manga hadn't revealed it yet. So does that indicate that this is in the Week of Cell? But that doesn't seem right, because there's no Trunks, Yajirobe is there, and Piccolo is not compared to the Saiyans at all... so is it "what if 19 and 20 were the real androids, and they lost""... but then WHAT ABOUT DEND? :O :(

Anyway, if they must fit without the magic consequence-free early victory thing, the common arrangement seems to have the right of it. Minor plotholes like "They shouldn't know Gohan" and "Goku waited too long to go SSJ" and "Trunks has long hair" are easily forgiven, 2-4, 6, and 7 are irreconcilable (you might shove 7 into the Hidden Timeline from Daizenshuu 7? Maybe all the movies from 7 onward are in that timeline, or something...'), 8 is dubious but the plotholes are "Goku waited too long to go SSJ"-sized, so I'd put it in the forgivable bucket, along with 10. 11 and 12 are unapologetically back in consequence-free-early-victory territory, and pre-Super, 13 has no problems.

What about the bad future timelines, though? I don't know if I can work this out without drawing diagrams. I mean, the Hidden Timeline had no Future Cell in the background, and he'd've been on Earth in the main timeline by the time Goku refused to let Shenron bring him home, so, I dunno, maybe that magnificent larval bastard kept Goku and Cooler both away, somehow, even though I have no idea how unless you want to blame the Time Patrol or something. Movie 8 could fit in the hidden timeline, but 9-10 do not. 11-12 are big maybes.
But Trunks. Parigus would either not come to Earth, or would leave when he noticed Vegeta was dead, or tried to destroy it only to get Gohan'd, or something. No Cell means no Bojak, and no movie 8 means no 10-11. 12 is a bit weird, but also kinda ignorable. 13? I mean, Hoi came to use Shenron to open Tapion's box, so maybe he just didn't, with no Shenron around? How did he get Minoshia out of his box, anyway? Maybe everything happened the same, with Tapion absorbing the beast, but that Trunks (or Gohan, or 17/18) actually killed him as requested?

And if Super really breaks 13 for you: Hidden Timeline? I'm not sure we'd've gotten SSJ3 Goku or Gotenks in that timeline, though, without Cell to kill Goku. Maybe Broli did it. :P
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Travis Touchdown
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by Travis Touchdown » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:53 am

This is how I fit the movies.

Bardock: The Father of Goku - Anime canon only. Obviously pre-DB.

Episode of Bardock - After Father of Goku (anime) of Minus (manga), pre-DB.

The Dead Zone - After DB, but before Z. Krillin’s amnesia about Gohan is similar to his amnesia about Piccoli’s regeneration ability. At least in the dub I don’t think Goku ever makes mention that Gohan is his son so that revelation could still be a shock come Z.

The World’s Strongest, The Tree of Might, Lord Slug, & Cooler’s Revenge - All happen within the 3 year gap while awaiting the Androids. Why didn’t Goku use Super Saiyan right away? He didn’t think he needed to. In the case of Lord Slug, when he decided he needed it, he was so cold he couldn’t focus his power and couldn’t make a full transformation. In the case of Cooler, he tried not to because he knew Cooler wouldn’t be a challenge, but he couldn’t win in his base form. He was correct once he transformed.

The History of Trunks - it fits in the anime version of events.

The Return of Cooler - I can’t rationalize this one. I can’t think of a way to make it fit.

Super Android 13 - Takes place during the 3 year gap. Trunks is there to check on the fighters’ progress. That goes against what he said he was going to do and what was established with the time machine, but the story does this sort of thing all the time. As for the amnesia of Vegeta’s Super Saiyan form, same thing as the amnesia with Piccolo’s regeneration back in the Saiyan Saga.

Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan - takes place in the 10 day wait for the Cell Games. Goku left Earth because he trusted Cell to keep his word.

Bojack Unbound - this fits beautifully all by itself.

Broly: Second Coming - takes place in the month preparation for the tournament.

Bio-Broly - Takes place shortly after Goku returns to the afterlife since Goten and Trunks were given the rest of the day off from fusion training.

The Gogeta movie (I forgot the name) - I can’t place this. However, I feel like the game, Shin Budokai, fits in its place. Takes place after the Buu Saga, before Super.

Wrath of the Dragon - Takes place after the Buu Saga, before Super.

The Return of Goku & his Friends - After Buu Saga, before Super.

Battle of Gods - no longer fits. Retconned our in both the manga and anime.

Resurrection F - doesn’t fit in the anime version due to Super’s retelling. Only fits in the Super manga.

A Hero’s Legacy - post GT.
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ulisa
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by ulisa » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:05 am

I see the movie canon as needing multiple timelines in order for them to make sense as obviously some different events occurred to let/not let some of the events take place. These are what I generally use as a guide for fanfiction. I cannot recall who originally came up with this idea but I used that as a base and just built on it:


Timeline 1
The main timeline of the series-including the new specials and movies (Goku and his friends return!, Battle of the Gods/Resurrection of F) and into Super. This timeline also has Movie 9 (Bojack Unbound) and Movie 13 (Wrath of the Dragon) which fit into the canon timeline. Dragonball Minus occurs and not Bardock Father of Goku/Episode of Bardock

Timeline 2
Pretty much identical to Timeline 1 except Super does not happen and GT happens instead and Bardock Father of Goku/Episode of Bardock instead of Dragonball Minus

Timeline 3
Because Movie 1 (Dead Zone) occurs, Gohan's power is known prior to the Saiyan arc, resulting in him being trained a bit by Goku before Raditz, making him more capable during the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. This essentially saves Goku from getting as brutal of a beating, allowing him to travel with Bulma, Gohan, and Krillin to Namek. Because Goku and Freeza would be tough to deal with simultaneously, Vegeta teams up with them much earlier. This leads to Freeza being beaten in his first form. They revive their friends, and Movies 2 (World’s Strongest), 3(Tree of Might), and 4(Lord Slug) are able to happen.


Timeline 4

Goku doesn't linger in space after Namek, and never masters SSj transformation. Trunks comes back to tell of the Androids. This leads to Movie 5(Cooler’s Revenge), where he cannot transform at will. Seeing how helpless they were against a random invader who is supposed to be drastically inferior to the Androids, Piccolo and Kami agree to fuse in order to give them an extra edge. Piccolo here isn't as strong as he is in the main timeline, because he has less training with SSj Goku under his belt at the time of his fusion with Kami. This prompts bringing Dende to Earth to be the new Kami. The Big Gete Star nabs Coola, and Movie 6 (Return of Cooler) happens.

Timeline 5
Since Cell wasn't around, Kami wasn't convinced to fuse with Piccolo. The blueprints found in Gero's lab were used to build a controller, which shut down #17 and #18. Movie 7 (Super Android 13) stems from this.

Timeline 6
The "Vegeta doesn't ruin everyone's plans" timeline. He goes to finish off Semi-Perfect Cell, who escapes via Taiyoken and goes into hiding. Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT early. Movie 8(Broly, the Legendary Super Saiyan) occurs, because Paragus, who was keeping a close eye on Earth, saw that things were safe. Afterwards, Cell sneakily nabs #18 and becomes Perfect, announces the Cell Games, etc. Seven years later, Movie 10 (Broly-Second Coming) happens while Gohan and co. train for the 25th TB. When The Saiyans are confronting Babidi, Vegeta stays patient long enough for Babidi and Dabura to be slain. He gets his rematch with Goku afterwards. Goku leaves. Later on, Movie 11(Bio-Broly) happens, because #18 still bribed Mr. Satan.

Timeline 7
Ultimate/Mystic Gohan finishes Buu without letting him pull any shenanigans. Universe is saved, Goku and Vegeta are dead still. Movie 12(Fusion Reborn) goes down. Black haired Gohan can one-shot Final Form Freeza.


It's probably not perfect but eh, I like the movies in general so I like playing with ideas that might occur if they happened.
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Gligarman
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Re: Movie Canon

Post by Gligarman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:29 pm

Battle of Gods and Resurrection F are the only movies that are part of the official canon. That's why none of the changes made in the Super version effect the outcome and are never brought up again. The sole exception being Goku receiving a bunch of money from Mr. Satan in the first episode.

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