How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

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How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:08 am

Say an amalgamation of DBS & GT's timelines occurred and Goku & Vegeta still had access to their tail, certain events go down that lead to Goku accidentally stumbling onto SSJ4(with Vegeta following suit) in the time between Boo’s defeat and Beerus' awakening. How would a SSJ4 Goku have fared against Beerus on Kaio's planet? Or SSJ4 Vegeta after becoming enraged from Beerus slapping Bulma? Finally, what would the result be if Goku & Vegeta fused into SSJ4 Gogeta/Vegetto and battled Beerus without toying around? Would it have been enough to 'tire' Beerus out or is SSJ4 too obsolete to make a difference?
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Professor Freeza » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:13 am

Nothing. Power difference aside[which is still too much], better keep non canon shit out.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:28 pm

DBS lacks ANY logic in power levels so Beerus could win in single punch if plot needs it. He could be wrecked by SSJ4 Goku as well.
But seeing on what was happening in Super and trying to find any power scaling, i would say full power Beerus still wins against SSJ4 Goku, especially since BoG Goku would be far weaker than GT Goku.
Angry SSJ4 Vegeta would have an short advantage.
Gogeta SSJ4 one shots the cat tho. Even with weak BoG base power levels.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:30 pm

It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Doctor. wrote:It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.
If we go by the anime depiction of DBZ then fusions like Vegetto/Gogeta multiply the strength of Goku & Vegeta by thousands and then SSJ4 can multiply this figure by thousands more, a total of millions of times greater strength than the individual powers of Goku or Vegeta. Throw in Vegeta unlocking greater strength from rage then is it possible that an enraged SSJ4 Vegetto or Gogeta could tire Beerus out as much as SSJG Goku did or more?
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:06 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Doctor. wrote:It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.
If we go by the anime depiction of DBZ then fusions like Vegetto/Gogeta multiply the strength of Goku & Vegeta by thousands and then SSJ4 can multiply this figure by thousands more, a total of millions of times greater strength than the individual powers of Goku or Vegeta. Throw in Vegeta unlocking greater strength from rage then is it possible that an enraged SSJ4 Vegetto or Gogeta could tire Beerus out as much as SSJG Goku did or more?
Well, I personally think Gogeta's much weaker than Vegetto is. Elder Kaioshin's statement aside, going by some of Gohan Boo's statements, he seems to imply that a Gogeta fusion would be nothing to him (he has both the knowledge on Gotenks' power boost and Piccolo's/Gohan's intelligence, so, even if he is boasting, it's not far-fetched to think there's some truth to it). Fusion Reborn seems to back this up too, considering Gogeta needed to go Super Saiyan from the start to defeat Janemba, who seems roughly equivalent to Super Boo (though, the most likely excuse out-of-universe is that they wanted the fight scene to be flashy), whilst Vegetto could handle a presumably stronger opponent (Gohan Boo should definitely be stronger since SS3 Goku shouldn't be able to land hits on him at all unlike Janemba) in base (anime-only, of course, but they're both Toei products). So, even if Gogeta could handle Gohan Boo unlike what he claims, he should definitely be weaker than Vegetto. There's also the fact that Gotenks needed SS3 to deal with Super Boo, even though Goten and Trunks individually were comparable to Goku and Vegeta in the Boo arc, although definitely weaker.

Calculating how strong a SS4 Gogeta in BoG would be is difficult, considering that we don't have a multiplier for SS4. If you think BoG SSG Goku isn't that much stronger than SS3 Vegetto, then the extra boost from SS4 should make Gogeta about equal to BoG Beerus, who needed to use 70% of his power to deal with Goku. SS4 Vegetto would probably be stronger.

Again, Super retconned a lot of the information BoG granted us. SSG was supposed to be stronger than a SS3 Vegetto, but base Kefla toyed around with SSG Goku. Vegetto should definitely be stronger (considering Goku and Vegeta are individually stronger than Kale and Caulifla), so even if you take into account that Goku was tired, a "current" SS1 Vegetto should definitely be stronger than SSG Goku, which throws away all that talk about SSG being a bigger boost than even the Potara (it doesn't matter if current SSG Goku is stronger than Boo arc Vegetto or not; Goku and Vegetto are relative to each-other. If Goku becomes stronger, so does Vegetto. So any statement pertaining to how strong Vegetto should be in comparison to any form of Goku's should always apply). And Beerus, who was supposed to use 70% of his power against SSG, is now even stronger than Kaioken x20 Super Saiyan Blue Goku, meaning Beerus should be, at the very least, 20x stronger than BoG SSG Goku, and that's without taking into account Blue's multiplier and the fact that Goku got stronger since then.

It's all very messy; you can't pinpoint accurately how strong SSG and Beerus seem to be. Their strength seems to vary throughout the series.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:26 pm

Doctor. wrote:Well, I personally think Gogeta's much weaker than Vegetto is. Elder Kaioshin's statement aside, going by some of Gohan Boo's statements, he seems to imply that a Gogeta fusion would be nothing to him (he has both the knowledge on Gotenks' power boost and Piccolo's/Gohan's intelligence, so, even if he is boasting, it's not far-fetched to think there's some truth to it). Fusion Reborn seems to back this up too, considering Gogeta needed to go Super Saiyan from the start to defeat Janemba, who seems roughly equivalent to Super Boo (though, the most likely excuse out-of-universe is that they wanted the fight scene to be flashy), whilst Vegetto could handle a presumably stronger opponent (Gohan Boo should definitely be stronger since SS3 Goku shouldn't be able to land hits on him at all unlike Janemba) in base (anime-only, of course, but they're both Toei products). So, even if Gogeta could handle Gohan Boo unlike what he claims, he should definitely be weaker than Vegetto. There's also the fact that Gotenks needed SS3 to deal with Super Boo, even though Goten and Trunks individually were comparable to Goku and Vegeta in the Boo arc, although definitely weaker.

Calculating how strong a SS4 Gogeta in BoG would be is difficult, considering that we don't have a multiplier for SS4. If you think BoG SSG Goku isn't that much stronger than SS3 Vegetto, then the extra boost from SS4 should make Gogeta about equal to BoG Beerus, who needed to use 70% of his power to deal with Goku. SS4 Vegetto would probably be stronger.

Again, Super retconned a lot of the information BoG granted us. SSG was supposed to be stronger than a SS3 Vegetto, but base Kefla toyed around with SSG Goku. Vegetto should definitely be stronger (considering Goku and Vegeta are individually stronger than Kale and Caulifla), so even if you take into account that Goku was tired, a "current" SS1 Vegetto should definitely be stronger than SSG Goku, which throws away all that talk about SSG being a bigger boost than even the Potara (it doesn't matter if current SSG Goku is stronger than Boo arc Vegetto or not; Goku and Vegetto are relative to each-other. If Goku becomes stronger, so does Vegetto. So any statement pertaining to how strong Vegetto should be in comparison to any form of Goku's should always apply). And Beerus, who was supposed to use 70% of his power against SSG, is now even stronger than Kaioken x20 Super Saiyan Blue Goku, meaning Beerus should be, at the very least, 20x stronger than BoG SSG Goku, and that's without taking into account Blue's multiplier and the fact that Goku got stronger since then.

It's all very messy; you can't pinpoint accurately how strong SSG and Beerus seem to be. Their strength seems to vary throughout the series.
Gogeta isn't that weak, an old Toei movie website stated that Janemba was above Hirudegarn(who is at least as powerful as Bootenks to defeat Ultimate Gohan)and Gogeta rather effortlessly destroyed Janemba. If I wanted to guess on that, Gogeta as a SSJ is well above Boohan-tier but I would agree that he still is not as strong as Vegetto. Rou Kaioshin's statement was also made when the plan was that Goku & Gohan(Ultimate) would use the Potara, Vegeta's contribution wasn't a factor at the time. Rou Kaioshin was doubting that the the fusion dance could even be achieved instead of solely doubting its power.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:11 am

I actually don't think there is much of a difference in power between SSG/SSB and SSJ4. Grab any quotes you like from GT, there is really no direct evidence beyond speculation that SSJ4 is somehow many times stronger than Goku right now in Super.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:06 pm

Doctor. wrote:It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.
DBS is full of retcons.
SSJG was impressive in BoG saga.
Now SSG and SSJB are joke. Training for few days seem to be enough to already trade blows with "gods".
SSJ4 on the other hand was superior all the time until Syn Shenron arrived.
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:I actually don't think there is much of a difference in power between SSG/SSB and SSJ4. Grab any quotes you like from GT, there is really no direct evidence beyond speculation that SSJ4 is somehow many times stronger than Goku right now in Super.
Well it was confirmed that sun's temperature won't hurt Goku SSJ4. But DBS Goku was scared of going into Earth's core which has lower temperature than sun. He said he would die and he needs protection suit. If SSJG or SSJB were superior he would just tranfsorm and that's it. Wasting energy is no excuse, Goku transforms into Blue even to use instant transmission and it was time of peace.

Aside from quotes you can clearly see a difference in how Goku handled Gohan. In GT, he didn't even need SSJ to beat Gohan SSJ. In Super, he could beat Ultimate Gohan even as SSJ and needed Blue to actually overpower and one shot him. GT Gohan was confirmed to be at least equal to Ultimate Gohan in his base. But it might be due to GT Goku being far superior in his base form. It's hard to tell what would happen if SSJB confronted SSJ4 with equal base power levels. Unless we consider SSJ4 to have fixed power level which is a possibility since it was advertised as a form that bring you to the limit of your power.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:03 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: DBS is full of retcons.
SSJG was impressive in BoG saga.
Now SSG and SSJB are joke. Training for few days seem to be enough to already trade blows with "gods".
SSJ4 on the other hand was superior all the time until Syn Shenron arrived.
It was until Super 17 arrived and absorbed his power.

That being said, to answer the read, I don't really know. Like it was said, SSG was initially supposed to be super strong, but now it means nothing compared to Hakaishin level or above.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 am

Professor Freeza wrote:Nothing. Power difference aside[which is still too much], better keep non canon shit out.
Seriously? Are you one of those people who considers everything non canon to be shit?

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by kn83 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 am

SSJ4 is extremely weak compared to SSJG and SSJB. Its either only a 10x boost from SSJ3 or it unleashes all latent potential like Mystic Gohan. So if the events of GT happened before Super, Beerus would still stomp everyone as easily as he did in BoG.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by kn83 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:42 am

Doctor. wrote:It wouldn't matter much. SSG seems like a much bigger boost than SS4. At least how SSG was portrayed initially in BoG. New details on fusion may have retconned SSG to be weaker than what was previously implied.

Beerus was also supposed to be only 40% stronger than SSG Goku in BoG, but Super retconned it and he's now dozens, or hundreds or even thousands, of times stronger, so it would also depend on which Beerus we're talking about.
Of simply Beerus could have been lying about his strength when he fought Goku just to lead him on.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:16 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:Nothing. Power difference aside[which is still too much], better keep non canon shit out.
Seriously? Are you one of those people who considers everything non canon to be shit?
Non Canon stuffs tend to be shit.


Just compare Super's 17 with Super 17.

The Canon writing has literally lifted 17 to new heights. He has now faced unseen love

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:04 am

Professor Freeza wrote: Non Canon stuffs tend to be shit.
The "non canon" Cooler is cooler than the trash Frieza became in Super. If 4 years ago someone would tell me that Frieza will become golden i would laugh at him saying he have read too many fanfics. The same goes for SSJ Blue tbh. And you actually know that SSJ4 is one of the most favourite form loved even by GT-haters while SSJ Blue tend to be hated even by greatest DBS fans.
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: SSJ4 on the other hand was superior all the time until Syn Shenron arrived.
It was until Super 17 arrived and absorbed his power.
Yeah, after he absorbed.
Rage Shenron deflected Goku's own Kamehameha X10 at him.
Naturon Shenron used Pan making Goku unable to go serious against him.
Nuova Shenron was faster but weaker.
Eis Shenron was playing dirty.

So none of them was actually stronger than Goku. Syn Shenron is the first and only enemy that was noticably stronger than Goku SSJ4 by himself and he still was fighting Goku when he was blind.

Meanwhile SSJ Blue was weaker than his very first enemy - Frieza after 4 months on training. Duh.
And all that "god ki" superiority has been proven to be a joke since non-gods were proven to be able to beat Goku and Vegeta or at least make them struggle a lot.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:08 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote: Non Canon stuffs tend to be shit.
The "non canon" Cooler is cooler than the trash Frieza became in Super. If 4 years ago someone would tell me that Frieza will become golden i would laugh at him saying he have read too many fanfics. The same goes for SSJ Blue tbh. And you actually know that SSJ4 is one of the most favourite form loved even by GT-haters while SSJ Blue tend to be hated even by greatest DBS fans.

You have LITERALLY no proof of what you just said.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:10 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: SSJ4 on the other hand was superior all the time until Syn Shenron arrived.
It was until Super 17 arrived and absorbed his power.
Yeah, after he absorbed.
Rage Shenron deflected Goku's own Kamehameha X10 at him.
Naturon Shenron used Pan making Goku unable to go serious against him.
Nuova Shenron was faster but weaker.
Eis Shenron was playing dirty.

So none of them was actually stronger than Goku. Syn Shenron is the first and only enemy that was noticably stronger than Goku SSJ4 by himself and he still was fighting Goku when he was blind.

Meanwhile SSJ Blue was weaker than his very first enemy - Frieza after 4 months on training. Duh.
And all that "god ki" superiority has been proven to be a joke since non-gods were proven to be able to beat Goku and Vegeta or at least make them struggle a lot.
And...? There was this "legendary Super Saiyan" transformation that made the user of it the strongest in the universe and able to beat Freeza, and then boom, here come human-based androids who beat them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying SSB didn't have an underwhelming showing, however, cuz it fucking did.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:28 am

Professor Freeza wrote: You have LITERALLY no proof of what you just said.
You can't be serious. Everyone knows that SSJ4 is very popular and most DB fans love this form, even people who hated GT mostly say that they actually liked SSJ4 and Gogeta. Meanwhile i hardly ever see people who consider SSJ Blue to be GOOD form, not even talking about BADASS or AWESOME except the biggest Super fanboys but those people think base Goku in Super can destroy universe so no one take them seriously lol.
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:There was this "legendary Super Saiyan" transformation that made the user of it the strongest in the universe and able to beat Freeza, and then boom, here come human-based androids who beat them.
Yeah and tbh i never ever said Cell saga made ANY sense. It's the illogical crap and lowest point of DBZ.
Anyway, my point was that SSJ4 was always losing because of other circumstances, not because he was weak. You could feel how superior he was compared to enemies and allies while in Superyou don;t have that feeling at all. The only times when you could feel power from Goku were the first fight with Beerus and now the ultra instinct. Maybe kaioken against Hit was effective as well even though it still wasn't enough.
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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by Professor Freeza » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:14 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote: You have LITERALLY no proof of what you just said.
You can't be serious. Everyone knows that SSJ4 is very popular and most DB fans love this form, even people who hated GT mostly say that they actually liked SSJ4 and Gogeta. Meanwhile i hardly ever see people who consider SSJ Blue to be GOOD form, not even talking about BADASS or AWESOME except the biggest Super fanboys but those people think base Goku in Super can destroy universe so no one take them seriously lol.

Again. Show me the proof. Only meme pages like SSj4.

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Re: How Much Would Discovering SSJ4 Change Things Just Prior To The Beerus Arc?

Post by FoolsGil » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:43 am

Both the movie and the arc showed an angry SSJ2 Vegeta actually hurting Beers. SSJ4 could knock the wind out of Beers' sails, but at least when it still mattered, Hakai energy trumps mortal energy each and every time. The moment Beers got his second wind, SSJ4 would be brought down low. But SSJ4 can still be useful if Super Saiyan God is kept ritual only, and so is only used against Zamas' merged form, may need a new ritual though with less saiyans though.

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