Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:41 pm

I don't know about Kefla, but Beerus could have done so. But he would have ended up killing himself too. Zeno was unharmed after he wiped out everything though, much more thoroughly than Beerus could.

And as for "universal" powers, what about Zamasu? He merged with the fabric of the universe and I doubt even Beerus could have killed him at that point.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by theherodjl » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Bullza wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Keflas ego was also enormous. Not a great source. DB characters boast all the time
Not usually about that they don't. Unless you want to claim it's one of those Cell moments when he said he could blow away a Solar System.

Some writer sat there and wrote down that Kefla could destroy a universe in one shot and they never contradicted it. So it doesn't make much sense to suddenly believe that the opposite is true and it was just written for the sake of it.
If she could destroy a universe in one shot then surely the entire arena should've been reduced to ash from her final, strongest blast against Goku? Since not then she likely is just boasting about her power.
The only one who can end a universe in a single shot is Zeno, everyone else(including Beerus, a God of Destruction) had to put forth quite a bit more effort than "a single shot" to put a whole universe in the danger zone. SSJB Vegetto is possibly the strongest mortal character in the story and he never made any such claim that his own power was capable of destroying the universe, damaging the universe, or bringing any cause for concern towards the universe's wellbeing. Even though SSJB Vegetto & Merged Zamasu's combined power was greater than Beerus' own power, there was no statement or artistic implication that the universe was going to end like the clashing of SSJG Goku & Beerus blows or their condensed Ki struggle.
Maybe Kefla just thinks she can blow away a universe?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Bullza » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:13 am

theherodjl wrote:If she could destroy a universe in one shot then surely the entire arena should've been reduced to ash from her final, strongest blast against Goku? Since not then she likely is just boasting about her power.
The Tournament has got almost 80 characters that can blow up a Planet like it was nothing, fighting intensely for 48 minutes non stop on a relatively smallish arena and it still exists. I don't think that kind of logic would really fit.
SSJB Vegetto is possibly the strongest mortal character in the story and he never made any such claim that his own power was capable of destroying the universe, damaging the universe, or bringing any cause for concern towards the universe's wellbeing.
Well he never made that claim for the Earth being destroyed either. The characters were supposed to be that strong by the Buu Saga that the Supreme Kai had to make a point that their planet was really durable so they could go all out on it. Against Beerus they had to take the fight into space.

It's just done for convenience and to get the point across.
Maybe Kefla just thinks she can blow away a universe?
Well like I said that then goes back to the whole Cell thing and the could he or couldn't he destroy a Solar System arguments people always had. He said he could and the guides said he could....but he didn't, so who knows.

Same kinda thing with Kefla really except it seems a lot more possible considering previous feats.

I just don't think a writer would sit there and write that she could do it but then actually intend for her not to actually be able to do it but not say otherwise. Weren't Goku and Jiren fighting shaking the World of Void even though it's made of infinite mass?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:38 am

Kefla was really overconfident and also said she would beat Goku but she didn't. So I don't put much stock in what she says.

That said on the other hand, Beerus is a lot stronger than Kefla.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Cipher » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:18 am

Jackalope89 wrote:Not to say anything definitive, but at the beginning of GT, Goku claimed he was as strong as SSJ3 in the Buu Arc in his base form.
This is not true.

Nothing else to add to the thread, but wanted to get ahead of this because absolutely nothing like that is ever said. That said, you're free to interpret GT however you want.

Basically any and all assumptions about base Goku's power in GT stem from:

1) His sparring with Oob in the first episode, and the assumption that they're both using their full power and that Oob must be as strong as Pure Boo.

2) Goku commenting on Rilld being stronger than Boo (form ambiguous) before fighting him in base form and Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:53 pm

And as for "universal" powers, what about Zamasu? He merged with the fabric of the universe and I doubt even Beerus could have killed him at that point.
The 'Hakai' technique does not work on immortal beings, this is heavily implied in the anime and outright confirmed in the manga. So both Future and Infinite Zamasu were invulnerable to Beerus' most powerful attack.

The anime incarnation of Infinite Zamasu was eternal, his power had no end, he transcended time and space and became the entire Multiverse in a matter of seconds, as well as obliterating all mortal life left in the future timeline. This is an unbelievable and astonishing achievement. Zamasu's power truly was endless, he was the greatest threat the Z fighters have ever faced, so much so that it took the Omni-king himself to descend from the heavens and erase the fallen Supreme Kai once and for all.

Truthfully, Infinite Zamasu had become the Universe... so how could he destroy the Universe? He would have to destroy himself, I think.

As for the manga incarnation of Infinite Zamasu, considering that Fused Zamasu stated that he planned to destroy the galaxy and everyone in it, I would imagine that Infinite Zamasu, an endless army comprised of thousands upon thousands of Fused Zamases with the same power of the original, would be more than capable of destroying a single Universe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:42 am

can't believe what I am reading in this thread lol Super characters stomp
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Whatever » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:20 pm

From guidebooks we know that GT base Goku is as strong as dbz ssj3 Goku,in dbs we have by rof a base Goku that ssj3 Gotenks cannot flinch.
GT's final and strongest villain could destroy the universe by infecting it with his negative energy,an impressive feat but its takes quite a bit of time.
In the very first arc of super a holding back Beerus and SSJG Goku that could not control his power well almost punched out the universe out of existance just by fighting each other.

So in short:
>Omega Shenron was trying to destroy the universe and it would have taken a bit of time to do so if he was not stopped.
>Goku(not even in his strongest form from super) and Beerus(holding back immensly)almost destroyed the universe as collateral damage.

How is it even a contest imao.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by lancerman » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:44 am

Aside from maybe Omega Shenron and SSJ4 Gogeta, there weren't any characters in GT that could one hit a SSJ3 level character. Even Super 17 would have needed to put in a little more effort. Even then, it's a maybe. Omega wasn't as effortlessly taking out non SSJ4 characters the way Beerus was schooling everyone in BOG. Beerus also never used full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:44 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Nothing of the sort was proven.

SS2 Goku easily took on an improved Ultimate Gohan that was stronger than his original Ultimate self before he decided to use his full power against SSB Goku. This is SS2 Goku multiplying his power from a base form at the very least stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
Gohan didn't get any stronger. It was stated by both Piccolo and narrator than he regained his OLD power. The one he used against Buu. Then he trained for few hours.
And yes, it was proven.

The first picture:
SSJ Goku struggles with Ultimate Gohan

The second picture:
Base Goku beats SSJ Gohan

The difference?
Base GT Gohan was stated (series+interview+databook) to be at least equal to DBZ (and so DBS) Ultimate Gohan.
And before you say that Goku was holding back in Super, so he was in GT. But DBS Goku actually was forced to transform further to beat Gohan.
SSJ GT Vegeta was still stronger than SSJ Baby Gohan who was A LOT stronger than regular Gohan considering SSJ Baby Vegeta was unfazed by SSJ3 Goku's attacks.

Base GT Goku (Baby saga) is stronger than SSJ3 DBS Goku (ToP saga).

Image

Sorry but this logic is as flawed as it could get. Gohan got far stronger in the time frame from Episode 88 to Episode 90 to the point he was able to combat SsjB for a while. You're assuming Gohan never Got stronger. Base Goku >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG. The spoilers of Episode 90 imply that Gohan has gotten far stronger than before which doesn't seem to be what you're implying since the spoilers kind of give the vibe that the battle will be great and not far in power at all:

[spoiler]Dragon Ball Super Episode 90
“Exceeding the Walls! Goku Vs Gohan!” May 14,2017

Gohan And Piccolo Vs Goku And Tien?
In the course of training with Piccolo, Gohan realized that he must surpass his father. So, Gohan teamed up with Piccolo to fight with Goku And Tien Combination! After finishing the training, Gohan who has an unprecedented Power, Goku is…..?!

Goku This Week
Looking at the growth of my Son! Goku is surprised by the change that occurred in Gohan! He cannot hide the joy that another strong one(Gohan) has appeared after the team battle. Goku will challenge Gohan to a 1 on 1 match!

Gohan, Surpass your father! Gohan was strengthened both in power and spirit with Piccolo’s training and now is focused on Tien who fights with unique techniques!
[/spoiler]

The narration states that Gohan has demonstrated strength which RIVALED Goku. It also seems to show that Both Goku's and Gohan's strength were both accepted by each other. You're kind of making a huge contradiction when you're saying Gohan hasn't got astronomically stronger to God Tier in that short while:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

After Goham attains Ultimate "Form", Piccolo tells Gohan he can go even further and become much more powerful and so they take up that chance and train with the remaining possible time and go test their powers on Goku which according to the spoiler makes some people believe Goku might be surpassed (turns out to be wrong but we need to mention the fact this says a lot about Gohan's power and speaks for itself that Gohan has gotten further stronger and succeeded in Piccolo's intentions). This makes all of your argument fall to pieces as your argument assumes that Gohan hasn't gotten much stronger which throws your logic out of the window:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Nothing in GT places it at DBS's level but only weaker, and the power increases are far more atrocious in DBS which already makes DBS far beyond DBGT. Nuff Said
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:54 am

Buuhan and even Kid Buu are arguable universe busters. If anyone wants to imply that to believe a character is a universe buster he has to destroy one, then that would just mean we should pull everyone out of character and out of plot. This is one of the same debates as Cell's one which many fans have started to deny even though there's nothing out there that qualifies as a decent reason to deny it
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Current DBS Base Goku > Ssj4 Gogeta. Show me one thing that proves GT to be above DBS. I'm 100% sure most of your arguments are misinterpretations and cherrypicking, but I'm always open to your arguments and I would love to the decency needed :D
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Saturnine » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:49 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Buuhan and even Kid Buu are arguable universe busters. If anyone wants to imply that to believe a character is a universe buster he has to destroy one, then that would just mean we should pull everyone out of character and out of plot. This is one of the same debates as Cell's one which many fans have started to deny even though there's nothing out there that qualifies as a decent reason to deny it
Buuhan might be, based on his "dimensional scream" feat (which I heard might be filler to be honest), but nothing implies Kid Buu was anywhere near one. The best he can do is destroy planet by planet by blowing himself up and reforming, while a universe buster creates timespace ripples that affect the entire universe simultaneously and can rip it apart. There's a huge difference.

As for the topic at hand, many people indeed postulate that GT characters are stronger than those in Super. That position however neglects the fact, that Toei wrote SSj multipliers basically as what they saw fit, so several times base at best. Before the SEG came out in 2009 it was not unheard of at all to have a 5x multi for Buu saga onward SSjs, yet most of the scaling rests on the assumption that SSj was always treated and written as 50x. I know it's an OOU explanation, but it's definitely how it is. Toei always went for strong bases and weak transformations in their original materials (fillers, theatricals and GT), seeing as how characters in base form lasted uncharacteristically long against overwhelmingly powerful opponents, while based on official multipliers from SEG (hell, even on pure common sense) they should die in a single blow. People tend to forget how bad Toei could get with this, though they've got a rough reminder with Super, which has its own slew of powerscaling problems (base Goku vs SSj2 Caulifla? yeah, right) and treating the SEG way, way too seriously. If you think SSj3 GT Goku was meant to be 400x stronger than base, then no wonder you wind up with outlandishly overinflated powerlevels for him and the rest of the characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:58 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:can't believe what I am reading in this thread lol Super characters stomp
Exactly lmao. No one in GT is stronger than RoF Base Goku lol. And there is no point in denying DBS characters being universal level when both the manga and the anime point to SSJG Goku from BoG and beyond being at that level. Its a dead horse by now. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

SS4 Goku isn't even stronger than Buu Saga Vegito (according to the GT Perfect Files), so any relevant character from DBS solos GT easily.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:03 am

There is not a single feat nor even statements in GT that puts those characters anywhere near DBS levels of power

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:03 am

Saturnine wrote:Buuhan might be, based on his "dimensional scream" feat (which I heard might be filler to be honest), but nothing implies Kid Buu was anywhere near one. The best he can do is destroy planet by planet by blowing himself up and reforming, while a universe buster creates timespace ripples that affect the entire universe simultaneously and can rip it apart. There's a huge difference.
Planet By Planet Only? Well yes I do understand that he can do that but that's nowhere near His best as you're trying to imply. And no there's a lot which implies Kid Buu to be a Universe Buster, and I mean a lot. A universe buster is a being who can destroy the entire universe, the entire sphere itself, in a single blow. Affecting other dimensions and time space continuums is above universal level. The best he can do? That's kind of funny since that's absolutely contradictory to What's been shown to us. Cell is a solar system buster, and kid Buu farts at this level of power.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:05 am

kn83 wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:can't believe what I am reading in this thread lol Super characters stomp
Exactly lmao. No one in GT is stronger than RoF Base Goku lol. And there is no point in denying DBS characters being universal level when both the manga and the anime point to SSJG Goku from BoG and beyond being at that level. Its a dead horse by now. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

SS4 Goku isn't even stronger than Buu Saga Vegito (according to the GT Perfect Files), so any relevant character from DBS solos GT easily.
Base GT Goku shadow dragons arc solos Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga with utmost ease. Anime Comics Guide isn't anywhere near reliable if it's contradicted directly by the show. GT Perfect Files doesn't say Vegito is above Goku
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:10 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:can't believe what I am reading in this thread lol Super characters stomp
Exactly lmao. No one in GT is stronger than RoF Base Goku lol. And there is no point in denying DBS characters being universal level when both the manga and the anime point to SSJG Goku from BoG and beyond being at that level. Its a dead horse by now. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

SS4 Goku isn't even stronger than Buu Saga Vegito (according to the GT Perfect Files), so any relevant character from DBS solos GT easily.
Base GT Goku shadow dragons arc solos Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga with utmost ease. Anime Comics Guide isn't anywhere near reliable if it's contradicted directly by the show. GT Perfect Files doesn't say Vegito is above Goku
Yes it sort of does

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:22 am

theherodjl wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:Keflas ego was also enormous. Not a great source. DB characters boast all the time
Not usually about that they don't. Unless you want to claim it's one of those Cell moments when he said he could blow away a Solar System.

Some writer sat there and wrote down that Kefla could destroy a universe in one shot and they never contradicted it. So it doesn't make much sense to suddenly believe that the opposite is true and it was just written for the sake of it.
If she could destroy a universe in one shot then surely the entire arena should've been reduced to ash from her final, strongest blast against Goku? Since not then she likely is just boasting about her power.
The only one who can end a universe in a single shot is Zeno, everyone else(including Beerus, a God of Destruction) had to put forth quite a bit more effort than "a single shot" to put a whole universe in the danger zone.
SSJB Vegetto is possibly the strongest mortal character in the story and he never made any such claim that his own power was capable of destroying the universe, damaging the universe, or bringing any cause for concern towards the universe's wellbeing.
Even though SSJB Vegetto & Merged Zamasu's combined power was greater than Beerus' own power, there was no statement or artistic implication that the universe was going to end like the clashing of SSJG Goku & Beerus blows or their condensed Ki struggle.
Maybe Kefla just thinks she can blow away a universe?
Its simple logic bro. If someone as weak as BoG God Goku has universal feats with a few punches (in both the manga and anime) then anyone stronger than that Goku could definitely one shot a universe with ease. That's how powerscaling works.
SSJB Vegetto is possibly the strongest mortal character in the story and he never made any such claim that his own power was capable of destroying the universe, damaging the universe, or bringing any cause for concern towards the universe's wellbeing.
That's a stupid argument because that's like saying 18 isn't a planet buster because she never said she was, even though by common sense and power scaling anyone stronger than a Saibaman can blow up a planet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:29 am

kn83 wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
kn83 wrote:
Exactly lmao. No one in GT is stronger than RoF Base Goku lol. And there is no point in denying DBS characters being universal level when both the manga and the anime point to SSJG Goku from BoG and beyond being at that level. Its a dead horse by now. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

SS4 Goku isn't even stronger than Buu Saga Vegito (according to the GT Perfect Files), so any relevant character from DBS solos GT easily.
Base GT Goku shadow dragons arc solos Ssj3 Vegito Buu Saga with utmost ease. Anime Comics Guide isn't anywhere near reliable if it's contradicted directly by the show. GT Perfect Files doesn't say Vegito is above Goku
Yes it sort of does

http://i.neoseeker.com/mgv/870828/828/9 ... oWTR79.jpg
There's no need to link it to me. I'm quite aware of the scan and I have the entire guide. But the issue is that it holds no candle to direct official information from a much reliable guide and material from the show.
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