kn83 wrote:PFM18 wrote:kn83 wrote:
People use astronomy because it's common sense, and the fact that it doesn't contradict anything. For example, Super Perfect Cell being 3000x stronger than Namek arc 100% Frieza (because that's how many times the mass of the solar system is to the sun) is believable. I don't believe any Buu saga character (and before) can bust a galaxy because scaling wise they should only be at best hundrends to thousands of times solar system level.
Also, we have numerous feats and statements in both the anime and manga of Super that put these characters at universal level, like BoG Goku accidentally sending shockwaves throughtout the U7 macrocosm in a few seconds, UI Goku and Jiren shaking infinity, zamasu merging with the multiverse and spreading to other timelines, Kefla claiming to one-shot a universe, etc.
People use that same fallacy to deny that Goku can destroy planets in Z, even though he is several times stronger than characters like beginning of Z Piccolo that could casually blow up the moon.
I didnt deny if Goku could destroy planets or if any of these things are feasible. I just dont think that any of this is remotely an accurate way to scale the power of these characters when comparing them to each other. It isnt accurate because none of these astronomy type feats are actually intended to be taken seriously or analyzed to the extent that they are.
The writers solely put it there for dramatic effect and to show the magnitude of the fights. I mean the shockwaves that were disrupting the fabric of the universe are a perfect example. That was literally JUST to show the audience that now that Gods and God ki are involved characters are much stronger now. it isnt meant to be consistent otherwise merged Zamasu and Blue Vegito would have blown up the universe easily. Goku Black SSJ rage trunks Blue Vegeta and Blue Goku are all several times stronger than the Goku that sent these shockwaves and it never resulted in anything more than damage to a city.
Just from the example that you used to say that Cell should be 3000x stronger than Freeza, there is absolutely no way there is that large of a gap. At the very most you could possibly highball the characters to be you could say that Super Perfect Cell is 100x stronger than Freeza and even then that is a stretch. Nowhere near 3000. That is a perfect example of how incredibly inaccuurate this method is. You shouldnt have to be a freaking astronomist to scale characters in this series.
This type of argument has been debunked multiple times. People use that same fallacy to dismiss any feat in the franchise. The reason why we don't see those shockwaves anymore was explained during the fight itself in both the anime and manga. Goku learned to control his new level of power so that he doesn't cause any unintentional damage to the universe anymore. Its the exact same reason why characters in Z didn't blow up planets everytime they throw a punch (even though anyone above Raditz could blow up Earth), its because they can control their strength and focus it exclusively on their targets. Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a perfect example of this. Its not headcanon when the show itself is literally telling you the same thing. Ki control is a thing even Toriyama talked about in interviews.
Why would Toriyama and Toyotaro go through the trouble of having all the characters (even the narrator himself) comment on Goku's universal feat if it wasn't meant to be literal? That's just a stupid form of downplay.
If Super Perfect Cell is a solar system buster (which is confirmed be numerous guides like Daizenshuu) and if Frieza on Namek could blow up the sun, then he would have to be at least 3000x stronger than that Freeza. Nothing contradicts that, as even the Mecha Freeza who was stronger than Namek Freeza was one-shotted by grade-one SSJ Trunks, who could be one-shotted by android 18, who could be one-shotted by peak first-form Cell, etc. You didn't provide any proof as to why Cell being that much stroner than Freeza isn't possible. You are merely appealing to incredulity.
LIke I said, the mass of the solar system according to science could easily change and what then? What if scientists discover that for whatever reason the mass of the solar system is 100,000 times more than the sun? does that make Cell 100,000 times stronger than Freeza? Relying on astronomy to assess power is just inconsistent and a very vague way to say the least. Even the concept of saying somebody is "solar system level" could quite literally range in millions depending on who you ask and to what extent you are "solar system level." To me, that making Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza is absolutely asinine. I dont think the writers intend for this to be used and that is why it would be inherently inaccurate. The writers to intend to make it very clear that "character A is stronger than Character B" and you should use scaling between characters to assess how characters stand between each other rather than using some kind of pseudo-science esque astronomy crap.
For example, here are my numbers as far as where everybody stands in the Cell saga where Namek Goku as a super saiyan is a 1 and full-power Freeza would be a 0.8. I may be off but not there is no way I am off to the extent that would make Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza. I have him as 95x stronger than Freeza on Namek.
Future Trunks Super Saiyan: 1.2
Post-Namek Goku Super Saiyan: 1.37
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1.5
Android 18: 2.25
Android 17: 2.37
Imperfect Cell(pre-absorption): 1.89
Super Namekian Piccolo: 2.42
Android 16: 3.31
Imperfect Cell(post-absorption): 3.35
Semi-perfect Cell: 8.57
Super Vegeta: 14.58
Super Trunks: 13.85
Perfect form Cell(Suppressed): 20.41
Ultra Trunks: 20.77
Mastered Super Saiyan Goku: 36.44
Full-Powered Perfect form Cell: 54.66
Mastered Super Saiyan Gohan: 40.08
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 80.16
Super Perfect Cell: 76.16
Super Saiyan Trunks(Cell games): 20.77
Super Saiyan Vegeta(Cell games): 21.86
Piccolo(Cell Games) 12.08
Which again by these numbers Cell would be 95x stronger than Freeza. Not even close to the 3000x figure you mentioned. Again, I may be off and it is possible other people could feel differently here and there, but the absolute most you could really go is MAYBE 200x Freeza which would still one fifteenth of the figure that you gave. If you were to carry this a step further and say Buu is Galaxy level(which many people consider him to be) then you would have to conclude that Buu is 200 billion times stronger than Freeza. Which is an absolutely asinine number. It just illustrates how unreliable using astronomy as a form of scaling really is. It just sounds ridiculous.
