Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:28 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Gohan was stated to keep training after Z in Perfect Files.
I agree with Koitsukai on this point. This tidbit about kepting his training contradicts what we see about Gohan in the proper series. He only uses his fighting gi in the final battle and he is still has a soft look (using glasses too), which is very different from his look after he finished his preparation for the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: Gohan was stated to keep training after Z in Perfect Files.
I agree with Koitsukai on this point. This tidbit about kepting his training contradicts what we see about Gohan in the proper series. He only uses his fighting gi in the final battle and he is still has a soft look (using glasses too), which is very different from his look after he finished his preparation for the Tournament of Power.
So he has to wear his Gi all the time?
Only Goku and Vegeta are always ready for battle. When Super 17 attacked he had no time to change clothes.
Gohan had his Gi in DBS because he knew about tournament.

In fact if you read an interview, Gohan was meant to change Gi in Super 17 saga but they abandoned this idea.
But they still stated that Gohan in Super 17 saga was the same "super-warrior" he became to fight Super Buu.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by theherodjl » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:21 am

Rakurai wrote:It seems you ignored my last statement, so let me re-iterate this once again. Buu arc Vegetto was not compared to SSJ4 Goku. Neither the events of the Buu arc nor GT Goku himself were referenced in that passage. The Potara fusion strength boost in general was compared to a SSJ4 transformation. This is clear from the context of the passage.

You're also flat-out wrong in another regard. SSG being superior to Potara fusion is false. Case in point: Kefla. Base Kefla stomped SSG Goku, while SSJ Kefla was said to rival the Spirit bomb stronger than SSB-KKx20 Goku.

Now that I think about it, Goku thought that fusion wouldn't work, which is reasonable but guess what, neither did SSG. The fact that all Jiren, assuming he is as strong as Beerus, needed against against SSG Goku was just one finger, indicates Beerus could've knocked SSG Goku the same way as SSJ3 Goku.
I didn't really ignore anything besides a headcanon so there's not much to say on that.
We have a picture of Boo Arc Vegetto and we're supposed to take that to mean that Boo arc Vegetto is not being referenced to even a little??? The fact that Boo arc Vegetto is stronger than GT Goku also has absolutely no bearing on the matter? Your argument can play both ways: the passage also doesn't say that Boo arc Vegetto himself isn't being referred to just as its not also specifically referring to him. Playing the middle ground is detrimental to the visual context though.

You're deliberately ignoring the fact that Kefla isn't also some run-of-the-mill fusion. Both Caulifla & Kale were already on par with Goku up to that point so why exactly would their potara fusion not surpass SSJG? When Goku was referring to the potara in Beerus' case, he was configuring the power that they had used against Majin Boo and NOT the power that would be shown after the event of a SSJG appearance. At that point, Goku & Vegeta at their best(SSJ3 for Goku and SSJ2 for Vegeta) were weaker than what Base Goku would be after the SSJG ritual.

What does this prove? Of course it wasn't enough, Goku didn't think think that his victory was assured but that SSJG would be a better option than fusion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:40 am

theherodjl wrote:
I didn't really ignore anything besides a headcanon so there's not much to say on that.
We have a picture of Boo Arc Vegetto and we're supposed to take that to mean that Boo arc Vegetto is not being referenced to even a little??? The fact that Boo arc Vegetto is stronger than GT Goku also has absolutely no bearing on the matter? Your argument can play both ways: the passage also doesn't say that Boo arc Vegetto himself isn't being referred to just as its not also specifically referring to him. Playing the middle ground is detrimental to the visual context though.

You're deliberately ignoring the fact that Kefla isn't also some run-of-the-mill fusion. Both Caulifla & Kale were already on par with Goku up to that point so why exactly would their potara fusion not surpass SSJG? When Goku was referring to the potara in Beerus' case, he was configuring the power that they had used against Majin Boo and NOT the power that would be shown after the event of a SSJG appearance. At that point, Goku & Vegeta at their best(SSJ3 for Goku and SSJ2 for Vegeta) were weaker than what Base Goku would be after the SSJG ritual.

What does this prove? Of course it wasn't enough, Goku didn't think think that his victory was assured but that SSJG would be a better option than fusion.
Magazines always use old pictures. Even upcoming DBS episodes descriptions used thumbnails from old episodes.
It doesn't mean anything. There is no GT Vegito so they showed DBZ Vegito. Simple as that.
Vegito doesn't have fixed power level.
Besides, why would they mean DBZ Vegito when it totally contradicts series itself?
Super Baby 1 was said to be stronger than DBZ Vegito. SSJ4 Goku was more than 10 times stronger than him.

SSJ4 GT Goku = SSJ GT Vegito
There isn't any other option
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:45 am

Well I'll just state that my opinion is that SSJG Goku from the BoG arc is stronger than anyone in GT.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Cetra » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:48 am

"Citation needed."
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Rakurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:49 am

theherodjl wrote: I didn't really ignore anything besides a headcanon so there's not much to say on that.
We have a picture of Boo Arc Vegetto and we're supposed to take that to mean that Boo arc Vegetto is not being referenced to even a little??? The fact that Boo arc Vegetto is stronger than GT Goku also has absolutely no bearing on the matter? Your argument can play both ways: the passage also doesn't say that Boo arc Vegetto himself isn't being referred to just as its not also specifically referring to him. Playing the middle ground is detrimental to the visual context though.

You're deliberately ignoring the fact that Kefla isn't also some run-of-the-mill fusion. Both Caulifla & Kale were already on par with Goku up to that point so why exactly would their potara fusion not surpass SSJG? When Goku was referring to the potara in Beerus' case, he was configuring the power that they had used against Majin Boo and NOT the power that would be shown after the event of a SSJG appearance. At that point, Goku & Vegeta at their best(SSJ3 for Goku and SSJ2 for Vegeta) were weaker than what Base Goku would be after the SSJG ritual.

What does this prove? Of course it wasn't enough, Goku didn't think think that his victory was assured but that SSJG would be a better option than fusion.
What you have is headcanon. What I have are the clear statements of the passage. Nowhere in the passage does it state that this was the same Vegetto who fought Buuhan, who was the result of a desperate last resort by Goku/Vegeta. The previous passages explicitly mention Z events, from teleporting Cell all the way up to fighting Buu, yet the Vegetto passage does no such thing. Furthermore, it is informative (meaning it just talks about Vegetto) as opposed to recollective (where it's referring to this particular Vegetto). This is simply a passage describing Vegetto the Potara fusion in general.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory07.jpg

Vegetto's picture is simply a visual. It is related to the passage by the fact that it's supposed to be, well, Vegetto himself. Using visuals alone is seriously ignoring the context laid out by the passage. You want more proof?

(From the same guide)
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... tory06.jpg

On SSJ Vegetto's box, it explicitly states in the first line that Goku merged with Vegeta in order to take down Buu. This is a clear reference to Buu arc Vegetto. And if it was Buu arc Vegetto they were talking about in the SSJ Vegetto-SSJ4 comparison passage, I assume they would've done the exact same which they did not.

You said SSG beats Potara fusion. I simply proved you wrong and by an obvious fact. You can argue for Caulifla, but base anime Kale certainly hasn't shown anything worth to be compared to base Goku's general level. Yet base Kefla still stomped SSG Goku. Now this isn't hard proof, but it does cast serious doubt that the SSG multiplier is as large as the Potara one even from Z.

Goku didn't know how SSG would stack up be relative to Potara, he was taking a shot in the dark. And you know what, both he and Beerus acknowledged it still wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus. We don't know exactly how strong BoG SSG Goku would be relative to Vegetto at that time.

Lastly, as I mentioned all Jiren needed was one finger against SSG Goku. One finger. That's the general level I'd expect SSG Goku to be stacked up to Beerus even while suppressed, if we are to assume Jiren is in the realm of GoDs. Which just goes to show how immensely Beerus was still holding back at the time.

So, SSG is still horrendously weak compared to actual GoDs such that SSJ3 and SSG still aren't worth anything. Well, they are worth one finger/hand to GoDs and that's probably about it.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:00 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
sunsetshimmer wrote: Gohan was stated to keep training after Z in Perfect Files.
I agree with Koitsukai on this point. This tidbit about kepting his training contradicts what we see about Gohan in the proper series. He only uses his fighting gi in the final battle and he is still has a soft look (using glasses too), which is very different from his look after he finished his preparation for the Tournament of Power.
So he has to wear his Gi all the time?
Only Goku and Vegeta are always ready for battle. When Super 17 attacked he had no time to change clothes.
Gohan had his Gi in DBS because he knew about tournament.

In fact if you read an interview, Gohan was meant to change Gi in Super 17 saga but they abandoned this idea.
But they still stated that Gohan in Super 17 saga was the same "super-warrior" he became to fight Super Buu.
No, but if he is training like this guidebook suggests (suposedly) we should at least have someone commenting on his improvements. Source link to that interview?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Rakurai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: No, but if he is training like this guidebook suggests (suposedly) we should at least have someone commenting on his improvements. Source link to that interview?
To be fair, guidebooks are meant to clarify on information not detailed or mentioned in the main story. Like Goten and Trunks being tailless hybrids making them prodigies or 18 being made weaker intentionally than 17 by Gero. Although things can and do get retconned if new stuff is brought up (S-cells smh).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:35 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Source link to that interview?
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -story-qa/

It may contradict Perfect Files by saying "in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely" but:

1. That is pre-Super 17 saga (look below).
2. Giving up fighting doesn't actually mean giving up training. And there are training that does not include fighting, like training Goku had in spaceship before Namek.

But the most interesting part is:
in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku
and then
Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again
Also note that even before, Baby was amazed at Gohan's inner power even though he controlled Rildo before.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:22 pm

I honestly don’t see the correlation between being a super warrior (a very generic term that can be applied to any Z warrior) and using ultimate form, specially when he specifies that, in Dragon Ball Z, Gohan had might surpassing Goku (I guess a good point on his favor in those SS3 Goku vs U. Gohan debates).

Maekawa is basically saying Gohan’s return to front lines ended up stopping at the level of, he takes off his glasses, and takes on the eyes of a warrior (doesn’t that sound familiar?) He is describing what could possibly be a good addition to the Dragon Ball GT story, by explaining what reason Gohan had to fight again and working around that subplot. Interestingly, this is more or less what they tried to do with him in Dragon Ball Super after Freeza was defeated, despite being a bit underwhelming if compared to what it was done with No.17 in the last arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:57 pm

Well, yes, giving up fighting is giving up training, when they fight is because someone comes to Earth posing as a threat, not because they go from planet to planet challenging warriors. Giving up training in a serious fashion, of course, they can still fly and turn SSj so they do hit the gym and exchange a few blows once in a while. But in any case the idea is that he is a scholar, he has another life now, he doesn't even go to space to save his planet and his father, besides he always hated fighting, it would be so out of character if it suddenly became a habit of his.

That interview clears everything up, Gohan was a scholar and was suppose to get back to his training but didn't because it was all about Goku, they even killed off his teacher! there was no Ultimate Gohan making a comeback in Super 17 arc, supported by the show (and by one of the writers if the show wasn't clear about it, which it was), because he went SSJ, which contradicts the idea of the Ultimate state. Yes, in Super goes SSJ before gaining back that ability, but after he gets it back he never once goes ssj again. And Gohan in GT went SSJ in every single arc, and was fodder in every single arc. Just like a guy who gave up fighting almost entirely would.

The story, love it or not, is pretty clear in certain aspects, you don't have to look that into it to see that Gohan not only never trained in GT(or in Z at times of peace for that matter), he hardly got involved, and only gets off his suit and glasses after 60 episodes. I mean, you train but when there's a threat like the dragons you disappear for 10 episodes?

if the answer to this is "the GT perfect files said he trained" well, we will never find a common ground here, I don't know why what's written down on a magazine would bear more truth that what we've seen in the series.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Rakurai » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:01 pm

Aside transformations, I'd say GT Goku and Super Goku are comparable to one another, with GT Goku having the slighter edge. One fought Rildo, a being who's stronger than Buu, in base and actually overwhelmed him before Rildo's squad came along, the other fought Buu who's only much faster and lost in base (albeit it was just sparring, so...).
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by The Monkey King » Wed May 02, 2018 3:25 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
The Monkey King wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I think it’s worth to point that highly dense energy was generated by Beerus’ and Goku’s third clashing. What Beerus did may count as a “nullifying a supposedly universe-crushing energy” feat. Whis also notes that Gods don’t know everything, so they were probably just guessing those clashes could wipe out the entire universe or at minimum the Earth and neighboring planets, like he told to Mr. Satan.
The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
I thought the narrator said that their attacks in general were threatening to destroy the universe.
At the start of episode 13 the narrator is specifically referring to the clash between Beerus and Goku's energy blasts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed May 02, 2018 4:33 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
The Monkey King wrote: The narrator stated the highly dense energy ball would've destroyed the entire universe.

There's no arguing or getting around this, just denial.
I thought the narrator said that their attacks in general were threatening to destroy the universe.
At the start of episode 13 the narrator is specifically referring to the clash between Beerus and Goku's energy blasts.
Well yeah, that one was elaborated on a lot in the episodes themselves.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Tai Lung » Thu May 03, 2018 10:56 pm

both have errors in power levels ... but you can detail your power
goku base super > gotenks is false
goku base gt > ssj3 is false
both are stronger than the goku of z but until then
what is certain is that you can not deny the feat of Goku God vs Beerus, was 3 blows fists to destroy the universe but beerus without using all their power achieve avoid it
no one character in gt or z has a similar feat.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
speed
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

manga

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku SSJ4 > Goku SSJ3 of Super and any equal or less than this
Goku God > gogeta ssj4 and characters of Gt

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Tai Lung » Thu May 03, 2018 11:29 pm

Tai Lung wrote:both have errors in power levels ... but you can detail your power
goku base super > gotenks is false
goku base gt > ssj3 is false
both are stronger than the goku of z but until then
what is certain is that you can not deny the feat of Goku God vs Beerus, was 3 blows fists to destroy the universe but beerus without using all their power achieve avoid it
no one character in gt or z has a similar feat.

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
speed
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

manga

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku SSJ4 > Goku SSJ3 of Super and any equal or less than this
Goku God > gogeta ssj4 and characters of Gt
in dragon ball gt perfect files it was said that vegito >= goku ssj4
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
and battle of gods Goku mentioned that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri May 04, 2018 11:26 am

Tai Lung wrote: in dragon ball gt perfect files it was said that vegito >= goku ssj4
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
and battle of gods Goku mentioned that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus.
Yeah, hypothetical GT SSJ Vegito would be equal/stronger than SSJ4 Goku.
The difference is GT Vegito is far above DBZ Vegito that Goku meant in Super.
And tbh, SSJ God Goku wasn't enough either. He could be only slightly stronger than SSJ Vegito from Buu saga.

Being stronger than DBZ SSJ Vegito isn't even being equal to base GT Vegito.

And no, it didn't mean DBZ Vegito just because it has DBZ Vegito picture. That is not a proof.
GT itself contradicts that, so...

Super Baby 1 was confirmed to be stronger than DBZ SSJ Vegito and Goku SSJ4 was more than 10 times stronger than him.
DBZ Vegito >= SSJ4 Goku > Super Baby 1 X10 > DBZ Vegito
???
It can't work.

And let's be real. Series statements are always more important than some guidebooks.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Tai Lung » Fri May 04, 2018 1:07 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Tai Lung wrote: in dragon ball gt perfect files it was said that vegito >= goku ssj4
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
and battle of gods Goku mentioned that a fusion with Vegeta would not be powerful enough to defeat Beerus.
Yeah, hypothetical GT SSJ Vegito would be equal/stronger than SSJ4 Goku.
The difference is GT Vegito is far above DBZ Vegito that Goku meant in Super.
And tbh, SSJ God Goku wasn't enough either. He could be only slightly stronger than SSJ Vegito from Buu saga.

Being stronger than DBZ SSJ Vegito isn't even being equal to base GT Vegito.

And no, it didn't mean DBZ Vegito just because it has DBZ Vegito picture. That is not a proof.
GT itself contradicts that, so...

Super Baby 1 was confirmed to be stronger than DBZ SSJ Vegito and Goku SSJ4 was more than 10 times stronger than him.
DBZ Vegito >= SSJ4 Goku > Super Baby 1 X10 > DBZ Vegito
???
It can't work.

And let's be real. Series statements are always more important than some guidebooks.
there is no GT vegito, they refer to vegito (z) and there is no proof that they refer to a hypothetical vegito GT

if we go by what is shown in the series there are 2 options
Goku says that the ki of baby (second form) is the most powerful one that has felt, if we take that literal would put him above super buu (gohan) but majuub can give a fight to a more powerful baby and ...
majuub = super buu = mr buu + uub / kid buu
the last option would fit with the guide

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Re: Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

Post by Cetra » Fri May 04, 2018 1:16 pm

Tai Lung wrote: there is no GT vegito, they refer to vegito (z) and there is no proof that they refer to a hypothetical vegito GT
There is also no proof that they mean Z Vegetto. As a matter of fact it would not even be plausible enough to assume they mean Z Vegetto. And even if they WOULD mean him it would still be nothing but a power statement in a guide which we all know is far from the non-plus ultra. Official instances say about power what they want whenever they want.
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