Dragon Ball Super's power levels are much lower than GT

[kn83]

I didnt deny if Goku could destroy planets or if any of these things are feasible. I just dont think that any of this is remotely an accurate way to scale the power of these characters when comparing them to each other. It isnt accurate because none of these astronomy type feats are actually intended to be taken seriously or analyzed to the extent that they are. The writers solely put it there for dramatic effect and to show the magnitude of the fights. I mean the shockwaves that were disrupting the fabric of the universe are a perfect example. That was literally JUST to show the audience that now that Gods and God ki are involved characters are much stronger now. it isnt meant to be consistent otherwise merged Zamasu and Blue Vegito would have blown up the universe easily. Goku Black SSJ rage trunks Blue Vegeta and Blue Goku are all several times stronger than the Goku that sent these shockwaves and it never resulted in anything more than damage to a city.

Just from the example that you used to say that Cell should be 3000x stronger than Freeza, there is absolutely no way there is that large of a gap. At the very most you could possibly highball the characters to be you could say that Super Perfect Cell is 100x stronger than Freeza and even then that is a stretch. Nowhere near 3000. That is a perfect example of how incredibly inaccuurate this method is. You shouldnt have to be a freaking astronomist to scale characters in this series.

This type of argument has been debunked multiple times. People use that same fallacy to dismiss any feat in the franchise. The reason why we don't see those shockwaves anymore was explained during the fight itself in both the anime and manga. Goku learned to control his new level of power so that he doesn't cause any unintentional damage to the universe anymore. Its the exact same reason why characters in Z didn't blow up planets everytime they throw a punch (even though anyone above Raditz could blow up Earth), its because they can control their strength and focus it exclusively on their targets. Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a perfect example of this. Its not headcanon when the show itself is literally telling you the same thing. Ki control is a thing even Toriyama talked about in interviews.

Why would Toriyama and Toyotaro go through the trouble of having all the characters (even the narrator himself) comment on Goku's universal feat if it wasn't meant to be literal? That's just a stupid form of downplay.

If Super Perfect Cell is a solar system buster (which is confirmed be numerous guides like Daizenshuu) and if Frieza on Namek could blow up the sun, then he would have to be at least 3000x stronger than that Freeza. Nothing contradicts that, as even the Mecha Freeza who was stronger than Namek Freeza was one-shotted by grade-one SSJ Trunks, who could be one-shotted by android 18, who could be one-shotted by peak first-form Cell, etc. You didn't provide any proof as to why Cell being that much stroner than Freeza isn't possible. You are merely appealing to incredulity.

LIke I said, the mass of the solar system according to science could easily change and what then? What if scientists discover that for whatever reason the mass of the solar system is 100,000 times more than the sun? does that make Cell 100,000 times stronger than Freeza? Relying on astronomy to assess power is just inconsistent and a very vague way to say the least. Even the concept of saying somebody is "solar system level" could quite literally range in millions depending on who you ask and to what extent you are "solar system level." To me, that making Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza is absolutely asinine. I dont think the writers intend for this to be used and that is why it would be inherently inaccurate. The writers to intend to make it very clear that "character A is stronger than Character B" and you should use scaling between characters to assess how characters stand between each other rather than using some kind of pseudo-science esque astronomy crap.

For example, here are my numbers as far as where everybody stands in the Cell saga where Namek Goku as a super saiyan is a 1 and full-power Freeza would be a 0.8. I may be off but not there is no way I am off to the extent that would make Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza. I have him as 95x stronger than Freeza on Namek.

Future Trunks Super Saiyan: 1.2
Post-Namek Goku Super Saiyan: 1.37
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1.5
Android 18: 2.25
Android 17: 2.37
Imperfect Cell(pre-absorption): 1.89
Super Namekian Piccolo: 2.42
Android 16: 3.31
Imperfect Cell(post-absorption): 3.35
Semi-perfect Cell: 8.57
Super Vegeta: 14.58
Super Trunks: 13.85
Perfect form Cell(Suppressed): 20.41
Ultra Trunks: 20.77
Mastered Super Saiyan Goku: 36.44
Full-Powered Perfect form Cell: 54.66
Mastered Super Saiyan Gohan: 40.08
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 80.16
Super Perfect Cell: 76.16
Super Saiyan Trunks(Cell games): 20.77
Super Saiyan Vegeta(Cell games): 21.86
Piccolo(Cell Games) 12.08

Which again by these numbers Cell would be 95x stronger than Freeza. Not even close to the 3000x figure you mentioned. Again, I may be off and it is possible other people could feel differently here and there, but the absolute most you could really go is MAYBE 200x Freeza which would still one fifteenth of the figure that you gave. If you were to carry this a step further and say Buu is Galaxy level(which many people consider him to be) then you would have to conclude that Buu is 200 billion times stronger than Freeza. Which is an absolutely asinine number. It just illustrates how unreliable using astronomy as a form of scaling really is. It just sounds ridiculous.

Your ignorance of science is hilarious. The mass of our solar system has been pretty consistent for past millions of years. There's no reason to trip over that.

The numbers you pulled are completely out of your ass lmao. By using feats and science, you can get a clear and consistent gauge on the abilities of fictional characters, thats how folks like even ScrewAttack scale these characters. Once again, you failed to bring any concrete proof as to why SP Cell can't be 3000x better than Namek Freeza.

[sunsetshimmer]

Many people actually believe Goku in Super can destroy universe lol. No one except Zeno in entire franchise was confirmed to be truly universal, yet people state bullshit about base Goku being multi-mega-giga-univeral+++ 2.0.

Beerus and Champa fighting each other would destroy a universe just by the collateral damage, so you're wrong.

There is way too much stuff that proves high-tier and above Super characters are universal. You'd have to be delusional to deny it.

1. SSJG Goku in BoG accidentally causing shockwaves that destroy the entire universe in seconds (with everyone in the cast even the narrator calling them universal).
2. Most fighters in Super being stronger than BoG Goku.
3. The numerous 4D feats and abilities like Hit's timeskip, SSBKK Goku breaking Hit's time hax, UI Goku and Jiren shaking Infinity, Merged Zamasu fusing with an entire multiverse and spreading to other timelines, etc.
4. Beerus and Champa accidentally destroying a universe when fighting even suppressed.
5. Kefla claiming to be able to one-shot a universe (which is believable if you scale her to BoG Goku).

There are many others. Plus this:
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

1. Yet Vegito Blue didn't even destroy a city with Final Kamehameha. Entire BoG saga was retconned. Otherwise current Goku would slaughter Beerus. And it only happened because of perfect and completely equal clashes. In real fight, they can't do such thing.
2. So what
3. Base GT Goku technically was able to almost freeze time against Oceanus Shenron so it's always something. And Hit timeskip is as great as Guldo's time freeze. When did they shake INFINITY? Shaking place around doesn't mean shaking infinity. How can you even tell that they shake infinity if it has no end? Base GT Goku was also shaking entire hell by powering up. Omega Shenron's energy was also able to reach world of kais which is outside of actual universe. Baby Vegeta's Revenge Death Ball's power was able to reach you even in different dimension and Goku SSJ4 absorbed much more powerful version of this technique (at least 10 times stronger version).
4. It had nothing to do with their power. It was stated that when two gods of destruction fight, universe will start to collapse. It's just a rule.
5. Mr Satan claims he is the strongest in world. No one confirmed that she can do that right? She was cocky and too confident. Saying "i feel i could one shot a universe" after fusing can be as fake as saying "i could lift a mountain now" after good training.

Sites like vsbattles with stupid fanmade names like Multi-gigaversal+++++++++ are cancer and trash. Sorry but i won't read a single word from it even if it ugh...."stated" that GT is hyperversal++++2000. Not to mention this shit consider english dub as actual source which makes it completely worthless.

[PFM18]

This type of argument has been debunked multiple times. People use that same fallacy to dismiss any feat in the franchise. The reason why we don't see those shockwaves anymore was explained during the fight itself in both the anime and manga. Goku learned to control his new level of power so that he doesn't cause any unintentional damage to the universe anymore. Its the exact same reason why characters in Z didn't blow up planets everytime they throw a punch (even though anyone above Raditz could blow up Earth), its because they can control their strength and focus it exclusively on their targets. Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a perfect example of this. Its not headcanon when the show itself is literally telling you the same thing. Ki control is a thing even Toriyama talked about in interviews.

Why would Toriyama and Toyotaro go through the trouble of having all the characters (even the narrator himself) comment on Goku's universal feat if it wasn't meant to be literal? That's just a stupid form of downplay.

If Super Perfect Cell is a solar system buster (which is confirmed be numerous guides like Daizenshuu) and if Frieza on Namek could blow up the sun, then he would have to be at least 3000x stronger than that Freeza. Nothing contradicts that, as even the Mecha Freeza who was stronger than Namek Freeza was one-shotted by grade-one SSJ Trunks, who could be one-shotted by android 18, who could be one-shotted by peak first-form Cell, etc. You didn't provide any proof as to why Cell being that much stroner than Freeza isn't possible. You are merely appealing to incredulity.

LIke I said, the mass of the solar system according to science could easily change and what then? What if scientists discover that for whatever reason the mass of the solar system is 100,000 times more than the sun? does that make Cell 100,000 times stronger than Freeza? Relying on astronomy to assess power is just inconsistent and a very vague way to say the least. Even the concept of saying somebody is "solar system level" could quite literally range in millions depending on who you ask and to what extent you are "solar system level." To me, that making Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza is absolutely asinine. I dont think the writers intend for this to be used and that is why it would be inherently inaccurate. The writers to intend to make it very clear that "character A is stronger than Character B" and you should use scaling between characters to assess how characters stand between each other rather than using some kind of pseudo-science esque astronomy crap.

For example, here are my numbers as far as where everybody stands in the Cell saga where Namek Goku as a super saiyan is a 1 and full-power Freeza would be a 0.8. I may be off but not there is no way I am off to the extent that would make Cell 3000x stronger than Freeza. I have him as 95x stronger than Freeza on Namek.

Future Trunks Super Saiyan: 1.2
Post-Namek Goku Super Saiyan: 1.37
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1.5
Android 18: 2.25
Android 17: 2.37
Imperfect Cell(pre-absorption): 1.89
Super Namekian Piccolo: 2.42
Android 16: 3.31
Imperfect Cell(post-absorption): 3.35
Semi-perfect Cell: 8.57
Super Vegeta: 14.58
Super Trunks: 13.85
Perfect form Cell(Suppressed): 20.41
Ultra Trunks: 20.77
Mastered Super Saiyan Goku: 36.44
Full-Powered Perfect form Cell: 54.66
Mastered Super Saiyan Gohan: 40.08
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 80.16
Super Perfect Cell: 76.16
Super Saiyan Trunks(Cell games): 20.77
Super Saiyan Vegeta(Cell games): 21.86
Piccolo(Cell Games) 12.08

Which again by these numbers Cell would be 95x stronger than Freeza. Not even close to the 3000x figure you mentioned. Again, I may be off and it is possible other people could feel differently here and there, but the absolute most you could really go is MAYBE 200x Freeza which would still one fifteenth of the figure that you gave. If you were to carry this a step further and say Buu is Galaxy level(which many people consider him to be) then you would have to conclude that Buu is 200 billion times stronger than Freeza. Which is an absolutely asinine number. It just illustrates how unreliable using astronomy as a form of scaling really is. It just sounds ridiculous.

Your ignorance of science is hilarious. The mass of our solar system has been pretty consistent for past millions of years. There's no reason to trip over that.

The numbers you pulled are completely out of your ass lmao. By using feats and science, you can get a clear and consistent gauge on the abilities of fictional characters, thats how folks like even ScrewAttack scale these characters. Once again, you failed to bring any concrete proof as to why SP Cell can't be 3000x better than Namek Freeza.

Alright well you completely and totally misinterpreted what I said about the solar system but that is fine I guess.

ScrewAttack uses methods like this because they have no choice. That is really the only way to compare characters from completely different characters from different fictional universes. It is inherently inaccurate but still the best you can really do. However, In dragon ball you have the luxury of just comparing each character from previous characters based on statements within the series. We have the precedent set in the Namek Saga that if you have a power level 33% higher it is enough to overpower an enemy and 50% higher is enough to completely dominate the enemy. Using what is known in the series an accurate scale can be compiled from events happening within the series that the writers actually put thought into instead of these arbitrary "feats" that arent meant to be used more than just a "wow that was cool" sort of moment. (Like the scale that I provided that you so conveniently dismissed) Obviously there isnt going to be "proof" either way because all of this is ultimately ambiguous it is just a matter of finding the most accurate ways to estimate. Acting as though you have "proof" of your 3000x figure is laughable

[PFM18]

Beerus and Champa fighting each other would destroy a universe just by the collateral damage, so you're wrong.

There is way too much stuff that proves high-tier and above Super characters are universal. You'd have to be delusional to deny it.

1. SSJG Goku in BoG accidentally causing shockwaves that destroy the entire universe in seconds (with everyone in the cast even the narrator calling them universal).
2. Most fighters in Super being stronger than BoG Goku.
3. The numerous 4D feats and abilities like Hit's timeskip, SSBKK Goku breaking Hit's time hax, UI Goku and Jiren shaking Infinity, Merged Zamasu fusing with an entire multiverse and spreading to other timelines, etc.
4. Beerus and Champa accidentally destroying a universe when fighting even suppressed.
5. Kefla claiming to be able to one-shot a universe (which is believable if you scale her to BoG Goku).

There are many others. Plus this:
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

1. Yet Vegito Blue didn't even destroy a city with Final Kamehameha. Entire BoG saga was retconned. Otherwise current Goku would slaughter Beerus. And it only happened because of perfect and completely equal clashes. In real fight, they can't do such thing.
2. So what
3. Base GT Goku technically was able to almost freeze time against Oceanus Shenron so it's always something. And Hit timeskip is as great as Guldo's time freeze. When did they shake INFINITY? Shaking place around doesn't mean shaking infinity. How can you even tell that they shake infinity if it has no end? Base GT Goku was also shaking entire hell by powering up. Omega Shenron's energy was also able to reach world of kais which is outside of actual universe. Baby Vegeta's Revenge Death Ball's power was able to reach you even in different dimension and Goku SSJ4 absorbed much more powerful version of this technique (at least 10 times stronger version).
4. It had nothing to do with their power. It was stated that when two gods of destruction fight, universe will start to collapse. It's just a rule.
5. Mr Satan claims he is the strongest in world. No one confirmed that she can do that right? She was cocky and too confident. Saying "i feel i could one shot a universe" after fusing can be as fake as saying "i could lift a mountain now" after good training.

Sites like vsbattles with stupid fanmade names like Multi-gigaversal+++++++++ are cancer and trash. Sorry but i won't read a single word from it even if it ugh...."stated" that GT is hyperversal++++2000. Not to mention this shit consider english dub as actual source which makes it completely worthless.

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

Although I have no idea what you mean when you say that BoG was retconned. and your reasoning is that somehow that would definitely mean that Goku would slaughter Beerus? how do you come to that conclusion? Goku has gotten thousands of times stronger than he was back then but that doesnt mean he can beat Beerus. (except during his fight with Jiren in which case he is clearly superior to Beerus and could smack him.)

[sunsetshimmer]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

Although I have no idea what you mean when you say that BoG was retconned. and your reasoning is that somehow that would definitely mean that Goku would slaughter Beerus? how do you come to that conclusion? Goku has gotten thousands of times stronger than he was back then but that doesnt mean he can beat Beerus. (except during his fight with Jiren in which case he is clearly superior to Beerus and could smack him.)

If i recall correctly, Beerus was said to use about 70% of power on Goku or at least 10% of power on Vegeta.
If Beerus was that strong then we would already be surpassed.

By retconned i also meant that there were more intense fights later and nothing like that ever happened again. There were powerful clashes but no one feared about universe being destroyed. They clearly didn't have idea how to handle it.

[Hugo Boss]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

Although I have no idea what you mean when you say that BoG was retconned. and your reasoning is that somehow that would definitely mean that Goku would slaughter Beerus? how do you come to that conclusion? Goku has gotten thousands of times stronger than he was back then but that doesnt mean he can beat Beerus. (except during his fight with Jiren in which case he is clearly superior to Beerus and could smack him.)

If i recall correctly, Beerus was said to use about 70% of power on Goku or at least 10% of power on Vegeta.
If Beerus was that strong then we would already be surpassed.

By retconned i also meant that there were more intense fights later and nothing like that ever happened again. There were powerful clashes but no one feared about universe being destroyed. They clearly didn't have idea how to handle it.

The 70% part is only in the movie though. But really, the anime seems to operate on the notion that Gods of Destruction are much much stronger than SSG and SSB, despite the statements comparing them previously. Now even Ultra Instinct seem to have entered the trope of “Goku’s forms that rivals the Gods”. I find quite interesting that they didn’t make a direct comparison between Beerus and Goku in the final product yet. I guess they may still want to play with their powerlevel a little more.

Also, sure, I think the collateral damage in Beerus Arc served to show how dangerous a battle of gods can be. Ultimately, Universe 7 was expected to become an empty void. But scaling that further is very hard, specially if you want to portray more dinamic fights. I don’t believe they could seriously make Goku or Vegeta always hit in a way they would cancel out attacks of each other. So, they delivered that weird excuse of squabbling.

[PFM18]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

Although I have no idea what you mean when you say that BoG was retconned. and your reasoning is that somehow that would definitely mean that Goku would slaughter Beerus? how do you come to that conclusion? Goku has gotten thousands of times stronger than he was back then but that doesnt mean he can beat Beerus. (except during his fight with Jiren in which case he is clearly superior to Beerus and could smack him.)

If i recall correctly, Beerus was said to use about 70% of power on Goku or at least 10% of power on Vegeta.
If Beerus was that strong then we would already be surpassed.

By retconned i also meant that there were more intense fights later and nothing like that ever happened again. There were powerful clashes but no one feared about universe being destroyed. They clearly didn't have idea how to handle it.

Yeah the quotes about how much power Beerus was using was only part of the movie continuity and not the movie. It was written when there were no plans to continue the series but once they started Super they didnt want it to continue and for Goku to become more powerful than Beerus during the story so they left Beerus' strength very open ended.

And the counterargument to that is that Goku and Vegeta learned to control their power and not cause as much destruction. The idea is that Goku was a lot less experienced with God ki during BoG so he didnt know how to limit the destructive powers of his unfathomable new power. (which by the way he said he would probably never be able to reach on his own.)

[kn83]

Beerus and Champa fighting each other would destroy a universe just by the collateral damage, so you're wrong.

There is way too much stuff that proves high-tier and above Super characters are universal. You'd have to be delusional to deny it.

1. SSJG Goku in BoG accidentally causing shockwaves that destroy the entire universe in seconds (with everyone in the cast even the narrator calling them universal).
2. Most fighters in Super being stronger than BoG Goku.
3. The numerous 4D feats and abilities like Hit's timeskip, SSBKK Goku breaking Hit's time hax, UI Goku and Jiren shaking Infinity, Merged Zamasu fusing with an entire multiverse and spreading to other timelines, etc.
4. Beerus and Champa accidentally destroying a universe when fighting even suppressed.
5. Kefla claiming to be able to one-shot a universe (which is believable if you scale her to BoG Goku).

There are many others. Plus this:
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_ ... is%20Verse

1. Yet Vegito Blue didn't even destroy a city with Final Kamehameha. Entire BoG saga was retconned. Otherwise current Goku would slaughter Beerus. And it only happened because of perfect and completely equal clashes. In real fight, they can't do such thing.
2. So what
3. Base GT Goku technically was able to almost freeze time against Oceanus Shenron so it's always something. And Hit timeskip is as great as Guldo's time freeze. When did they shake INFINITY? Shaking place around doesn't mean shaking infinity. How can you even tell that they shake infinity if it has no end? Base GT Goku was also shaking entire hell by powering up. Omega Shenron's energy was also able to reach world of kais which is outside of actual universe. Baby Vegeta's Revenge Death Ball's power was able to reach you even in different dimension and Goku SSJ4 absorbed much more powerful version of this technique (at least 10 times stronger version).
4. It had nothing to do with their power. It was stated that when two gods of destruction fight, universe will start to collapse. It's just a rule.
5. Mr Satan claims he is the strongest in world. No one confirmed that she can do that right? She was cocky and too confident. Saying "i feel i could one shot a universe" after fusing can be as fake as saying "i could lift a mountain now" after good training.

Sites like vsbattles with stupid fanmade names like Multi-gigaversal+++++++++ are cancer and trash. Sorry but i won't read a single word from it even if it ugh...."stated" that GT is hyperversal++++2000. Not to mention this shit consider english dub as actual source which makes it completely worthless.

Like I've said, this argument has been debunked multiple times. People use that same fallacy to dismiss any feat in the entire series. The reason why we don't see those shockwaves anymore was literally explained during the fight itself in both the anime and manga. Goku learned to control his new level of power so that he doesn't cause any unintentional damage to the universe anymore. Its that fucking simple, just self-control. There is nothing inconsistent about it, you have to be retarded not to get it. Its the exact same reason why characters in Z didn't blow up planets everytime they throw a punch (even though anyone above Raditz could blow up Earth), its because they can control their strength and focus it exclusively on their targets. Vegeta's Final Flash on Cell is a perfect example of this. Its not headcanon when the show itself is literally telling you the same thing. Ki control is a thing even Toriyama talked about in interviews. Yet you spergs keep denying what the show itself tells you.

Beerus using 70% of use power was only in the movies, not Super. Goku's universal shockwaves has not been retcon, its even in the manga version of Super (why would Toyotaro include it if was meant to be retcon?) . And we have numerous universal/4D feats and statements since the BoG arc anyway, yet downplayers like yourself are still in denial .

It had nothing to do with their power. It was stated that when two gods of destruction fight, universe will start to collapse. It's just a rule.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard . It was outright stated by Whis and Vados that the sheer force of Beerus and Champa fighting would tear a universe apart, its clearly a reference to their raw power, not some BS special rule which no body called it as such.

The ToP takes place in a void of infinite space as explained by the Grand Priest, yet UI Goku, Jiren and God Toppo were able to shake it up with multiple characters commenting on that. That's a 5D feat, far more impressive than shaking the afterlife (which is only 2x the size of the living realm according to the Daizenshuu).

Sites like vsbattles with stupid fanmade names like Multi-gigaversal+++++++++ are cancer and trash. Sorry but i won't read a single word from it even if it ugh...."stated" that GT is hyperversal++++2000. Not to mention this shit consider english dub as actual source which makes it completely worthless.

You gave no actual arguments against the site, just spewing ad hominems. They use facts and official sources and don't rely on headcannon like you do.

GT is fodder, get over it and accept reality.

[kn83]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

That's a stupid argument thats been debunked multiple times. People have used that retarded arguement to say that not even SSJ3 Goku is a planet buster . The reason why these DB characters aren't planet busting 24/7 is because they focus the power of their attacks exclusively on their opponents for maximum damage to them. Its all about ki control, which was talked about sometimes in the series itself and in some interviews by Toriyama himself.

Take the Cell saga for example. Remember when Vegeta was charging his Final Flash and everyone thought he was gonna blow up the Earth? The reason why he didn't as Trunks pointed out was because he focused all of the attack's power on Perfect Cell, who was able to tank it, simple. So the "Vegetto didn't even blow up a city" argument is retarded. That's like saying Roshi is stronger than the Grand Priest because Roshi blew up a moon while the Priest never even busted a city .

[kn83]

Using what is known in the series an accurate scale can be compiled from events happening within the series that the writers actually put thought into instead of these arbitrary "feats" that arent meant to be used more than just a "wow that was cool" sort of moment. (Like the scale that I provided that you so conveniently dismissed) Obviously there isnt going to be "proof" either way because all of this is ultimately ambiguous it is just a matter of finding the most accurate ways to estimate.

That is pure headcanon bullshit. The entire point of feats is to show (not tell) what these characters are capable of. That's how feats work in any work of fiction, as well as real-life competition. Show, don't tell. Multiple official guides approved by Toriyama himself such as the Daizenshuu and Super Exciting Guide uses feats to showcase how strong these characters actually are at certain parts of the story. For example, the Daizenshuu elaborates on stuff like Roshi and Piccolo blowing up the moon, Freeza destroying a planet 10x the mass of Earth with less than 1% of his power, Cell being a solar system buster, Buuhan destroying the universe via chain-reaction, etc. So there obviously not just there for amusement, especially if the feat effects the plot. Just because you don't like feats doesn't mean you can dismiss them, that's just your bias and close-mindedness. You're not the author, If Toriyama himself says that this feat means this character is this strong, then so be it.

[PFM18]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

That's a stupid argument thats been debunked multiple times. People have used that retarded arguement to say that not even SSJ3 Goku is a planet buster . The reason why these DB characters aren't planet busting 24/7 is because they focus the power of their attacks exclusively on their opponents for maximum damage to them. Its all about ki control, which was talked about sometimes in the series itself and in some interviews by Toriyama himself.

Take the Cell saga for example. Remember when Vegeta was charging his Final Flash and everyone thought he was gonna blow up the Earth? The reason why he didn't as Trunks pointed out was because he focused all of the attack's power on Perfect Cell, who was able to tank it, simple. So the "Vegetto didn't even blow up a city" argument is retarded. That's like saying Roshi is stronger than the Grand Priest because Roshi blew up a moon while the Priest never even busted a city .

You really do a poor job of coming up with reasonable examples or even interpreting what is being said by othees. Nobody said that these characters cant because they havent like you are impying. In fact that wasnt even alluded to. Whichever way you rationalize it it has always been inconsistent in these destructive feats. They were never meant to be used as a scale or to use them to extrapolate astronomy. Using these astronomy type pseudo science approaches to scaling is ridiculous.

If these sort of feats were consistent and reliable enough to scale from then Kid Buu was trying to strictly destroy as much as he could at a time. (AKA he wasnt holding back) and the best he could do is destroy one planet at a time before he made his way to goku on kai's o
Planet. If these were consistent then he would have bloen up several solar systems at a time with little problems. When he blew up the earth he also would have blown up the entire solar system. When super buu was angry and powered up he tore a hole in the dimensions. And yet when other characters do similar things throughout the series and there's never a tear in the dimensions. When roshi blew up the moon easily but had to exert tons of effort just to blow a small hole in the ground to dig a hole...or to destroy boulders. Freeza in his first form blows up planet vegeta with ease and yet he is literally using 200x more power and he fails to blow up Namek in one shot. But no they dont care about these things so they shouldnt be taken very seriously. Dragon ball was never meant to be used as an astronomy show I dont know why people do it

[kn83]

See this is yet another example of why you cant act as though destructive feats are consistent throughout the series and an be used as an accurate way of scaling characters within the series. I mean like you said Vegetto didnt even blow up a city when they were destroying the universe before.

That's a stupid argument thats been debunked multiple times. People have used that retarded arguement to say that not even SSJ3 Goku is a planet buster . The reason why these DB characters aren't planet busting 24/7 is because they focus the power of their attacks exclusively on their opponents for maximum damage to them. Its all about ki control, which was talked about sometimes in the series itself and in some interviews by Toriyama himself.

Take the Cell saga for example. Remember when Vegeta was charging his Final Flash and everyone thought he was gonna blow up the Earth? The reason why he didn't as Trunks pointed out was because he focused all of the attack's power on Perfect Cell, who was able to tank it, simple. So the "Vegetto didn't even blow up a city" argument is retarded. That's like saying Roshi is stronger than the Grand Priest because Roshi blew up a moon while the Priest never even busted a city .

You really do a poor job of coming up with reasonable examples or even interpreting what is being said by othees. Nobody said that these characters cant because they havent like you are impying. In fact that wasnt even alluded to. Whichever way you rationalize it it has always been inconsistent in these destructive feats. They were never meant to be used as a scale or to use them to extrapolate astronomy. Using these astronomy type pseudo science approaches to scaling is ridiculous.

Do you have some sort of mental issue? In DBZ episode 162, Kai episode 81 and manga chapter 384, Trunks literally says that Vegeta shrunk his blast to focus it on Cell, preventing it from blowing up the planet. Its not rocket science. http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51220795

And what inconsistency? Nearly every major threat in DB has been described or implied to be a bigger buster than the last. Without feats or even statements, there is no way to scale the characters. What is so inconsistent about Cell being that much stronger than Z-Freeza, nothing. If the show itself (let alone guides) uses feats to empathize how strong a character is, you would have to be delusional to deny it.

[Dagon]

1. Yet Vegito Blue didn't even destroy a city with Final Kamehameha. Entire BoG saga was retconned. Otherwise current Goku would slaughter Beerus. And it only happened because of perfect and completely equal clashes. In real fight, they can't do such thing.

You... you do realize that Vegetto was not TRYING to destroy the city? He's trying to save people, not destroy the friggin' universe. They can control the area of effect of their attacks, you know. Or maybe you didn't.

[Polyphase Avatron]

IMO as long as a character is shown to be consistently capable of something (i. e. not just once or twice or under unusual circumstances) then nitpicking about them not doing it every single time is just silly.

[PFM18]

That's a stupid argument thats been debunked multiple times. People have used that retarded arguement to say that not even SSJ3 Goku is a planet buster . The reason why these DB characters aren't planet busting 24/7 is because they focus the power of their attacks exclusively on their opponents for maximum damage to them. Its all about ki control, which was talked about sometimes in the series itself and in some interviews by Toriyama himself.

Take the Cell saga for example. Remember when Vegeta was charging his Final Flash and everyone thought he was gonna blow up the Earth? The reason why he didn't as Trunks pointed out was because he focused all of the attack's power on Perfect Cell, who was able to tank it, simple. So the "Vegetto didn't even blow up a city" argument is retarded. That's like saying Roshi is stronger than the Grand Priest because Roshi blew up a moon while the Priest never even busted a city .

You really do a poor job of coming up with reasonable examples or even interpreting what is being said by othees. Nobody said that these characters cant because they havent like you are impying. In fact that wasnt even alluded to. Whichever way you rationalize it it has always been inconsistent in these destructive feats. They were never meant to be used as a scale or to use them to extrapolate astronomy. Using these astronomy type pseudo science approaches to scaling is ridiculous.

Do you have some sort of mental issue? In DBZ episode 162, Kai episode 81 and manga chapter 384, Trunks literally says that Vegeta shrunk his blast to focus it on Cell, preventing it from blowing up the planet. Its not rocket science. http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51220795

And what inconsistency? Nearly every major threat in DB has been described or implied to be a bigger buster than the last. Without feats or even statements, there is no way to scale the characters. What is so inconsistent about Cell being that much stronger than Z-Freeza, nothing. If the show itself (let alone guides) uses feats to empathize how strong a character is, you would have to be delusional to deny it.

I find it funny that you ask if I have some kind of mental issue when you had failed to comprehend almost anything I have said. And how exactly does what you said about trunks contradict literally anything I just said? I have no idea how what you said is supposed to be a counterpoint. And you ask "what inconsistency" and then ignore the entire paragraph that I show examples of these inconsistencies.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku and Vegeta learned to control their power and not cause as much destruction.

The reason why we don't see those shockwaves anymore was literally explained during the fight itself in both the anime and manga. Goku learned to control his new level of power so that he doesn't cause any unintentional damage to the universe anymore.

The reason why these DB characters aren't planet busting 24/7 is because they focus the power of their attacks exclusively on their opponents for maximum damage to them. Its all about ki control, which was talked about sometimes in the series itself and in some interviews by Toriyama himself.

They can control the area of effect of their attacks, you know. Or maybe you didn't.

I keep seeing this "damage control" explanation, but I never saw it being given in the proper series. Kibitoshin literally asked why Goku and Beerus stopped generating destructive shockwaves, despite not cancelling out each other attacks, and the Elder Kaioshin said they were just squabbling (like two boys fighting for a toy). That was his explanation. What about the godly clashes after that battle? Also, when Super Vegeta used Final Flash, he just narrowed the beam so it wouldn't directly hit the Earth. Not only it hit Cell but a good portion went all the way to the space. I'm curious to see this explanation being mentioned when Goku superclashes fists/beams with Freeza, Copy-Vegeta, Hit, Zamas or Jiren, if possible by providing a link to a reliable source.

IMO as long as a character is shown to be consistently capable of something (i. e. not just once or twice or under unusual circumstances) then nitpicking about them not doing it every single time is just silly.

I think we could say they are capable of supermassive destruction, but I don't buy they are consistently trying to not damage their whereabouts, since they can get carried away or be too much into the fight.

[PFM18]

All I am trying to say is using "feats" as far as destruction of planets or solar bodies as a method of scaling characters in the series is silly to me based on how inconsistent they have been and by the fact that it is clearly laid out to us how each character compares to another. Scaling each character off of previous characters and using the numbers that we are given is dramatically more accurate as a measure of power scaling between characters. Not to mention the fact that these "feats" are mostly for "shock and awe" purposes but are not in any capacity meant to be used as a definitive way of comparing characters within the series. I mean sure these are used as a reasonable way of comparing characters from one series to another because that is the only option that you have.

On topic, I believe that super characters are far stronger than GT characters. if you high ball base GT goku to be as strong as base vegito(who I personally consider to be about 25x stronger than super Saiyan 3 goku from the buu saga) and then you use the 4000x multipler then it comes to be that SSJ4 goku in GT is 100,000 times stronger than SSJ3 goku. Even if you dont use this multiplier and say that SSJ4 is 50x stronger than SSJ3 and makes it 20,000x stronger than Base that makes SSJ4 goku in GT 500,000x stronger than SSJ3 goku from the buu saga. Super characters in ROF are already in the millions of times stronger than SSJ3 goku so I dont see how there is a comparison.

[kn83]

All I am trying to say is using "feats" as far as destruction of planets or solar bodies as a method of scaling characters in the series is silly to me based on how inconsistent they have been and by the fact that it is clearly laid out to us how each character compares to another. Scaling each character off of previous characters and using the numbers that we are given is dramatically more accurate as a measure of power scaling between characters. Not to mention the fact that these "feats" are mostly for "shock and awe" purposes but are not in any capacity meant to be used as a definitive way of comparing characters within the series. I mean sure these are used as a reasonable way of comparing characters from one series to another because that is the only option that you have.

On topic, I believe that super characters are far stronger than GT characters. if you high ball base GT goku to be as strong as base vegito(who I personally consider to be about 25x stronger than super Saiyan 3 goku from the buu saga) and then you use the 4000x multipler then it comes to be that SSJ4 goku in GT is 100,000 times stronger than SSJ3 goku. Even if you dont use this multiplier and say that SSJ4 is 50x stronger than SSJ3 and makes it 20,000x stronger than Base that makes SSJ4 goku in GT 500,000x stronger than SSJ3 goku from the buu saga. Super characters in ROF are already in the millions of times stronger than SSJ3 goku so I dont see how there is a comparison.

Bro, read the Daizenshuu. I just given you clear proof of the fact that feats are use to demonstrate capabilities. At no point have you actually given any proof or logic as to why they are allegedly inconsistent. Its a simple case of show, don't tell. How can you scale characters at all if there are no feats to measure them from? One character beating up another counts as a feat, you saying we can't even use that to measure lmao, that is retarded.

Second, you keep pulling made-up numbers out of your ass (while giving no proof for them), yet you think that's more reliable than using science? Do you realize how ridiculously stupid that sounds?

[Koitsukai]

Boy, do we take this show seriously... we try to make everything fit, we look for congruence like it was written by Chejov but it wasn't, it was done by a japanese mangaka who only new how to draw and just had fun with it, we can't even find congruence between two consecutive episodes, but still there are folks trying to find it between two different series. The comparison between Freeza's two planetary attacks as previously stated(which I've never paid any attention to) goes to show this is not a bullet-proof series. Still, I love it.

[PFM18]

All I am trying to say is using "feats" as far as destruction of planets or solar bodies as a method of scaling characters in the series is silly to me based on how inconsistent they have been and by the fact that it is clearly laid out to us how each character compares to another. Scaling each character off of previous characters and using the numbers that we are given is dramatically more accurate as a measure of power scaling between characters. Not to mention the fact that these "feats" are mostly for "shock and awe" purposes but are not in any capacity meant to be used as a definitive way of comparing characters within the series. I mean sure these are used as a reasonable way of comparing characters from one series to another because that is the only option that you have.

On topic, I believe that super characters are far stronger than GT characters. if you high ball base GT goku to be as strong as base vegito(who I personally consider to be about 25x stronger than super Saiyan 3 goku from the buu saga) and then you use the 4000x multipler then it comes to be that SSJ4 goku in GT is 100,000 times stronger than SSJ3 goku. Even if you dont use this multiplier and say that SSJ4 is 50x stronger than SSJ3 and makes it 20,000x stronger than Base that makes SSJ4 goku in GT 500,000x stronger than SSJ3 goku from the buu saga. Super characters in ROF are already in the millions of times stronger than SSJ3 goku so I dont see how there is a comparison.

Bro, read the Daizenshuu. I just given you clear proof of the fact that feats are use to demonstrate capabilities. At no point have you actually given any proof or logic as to why they are allegedly inconsistent. Its a simple case of show, don't tell. How can you scale characters at all if there are no feats to measure them from? One character beating up another counts as a feat, you saying we can't even use that to measure lmao, that is retarded.

Second, you keep pulling made-up numbers out of your ass (while giving no proof for them), yet you think that's more reliable than using science? Do you realize how ridiculously stupid that sounds?

I find it strange that you keep using the word "proof" as if this conversation isnt inherently subjective. We try to keep things as objective as possible but this ultimately comes down to opinion. You are literally just stating your opinion on the matter and calling it "proof"

Also, Science? are you serious??? You are talking about fictional characters blowing things up. That is pseudo science, by definition. dont pretend as though this is some kind of precise science when it is clearly not even close to it.

And as far as "At no point have you actually given any proof or logic as to why they are allegedly inconsistent." did you just completely ignore the paragraph I wrote giving examples of these inconsistencies? I'll show you again since apparently you ignored it the first time.

"if these sort of feats were consistent and reliable enough to scale from then Kid Buu was trying to strictly destroy as much as he could at a time. (AKA he wasnt holding back) and the best he could do is destroy one planet at a time using instant transmission before he made his way to goku on kai's Planet. If these were consistent then he would have blown up several solar systems at a time with little problems. When he blew up the earth he also would have blown up the entire solar system. When super buu was angry and powered up he tore a hole in the dimensions. And yet when other characters do similar things throughout the series and there's never a tear in the dimensions. When roshi blew up the moon easily but had to exert tons of effort just to blow a small hole in the ground to dig a hole...or to destroy boulders. Freeza in his first form blows up planet vegeta with ease and yet he is literally using 200x more power and he fails to blow up Namek in one shot when he is clearly trying to destroy it. But no they dont care about these things so they shouldnt be taken very seriously. Dragon ball was never meant to be used as an astronomy show I dont know why people do it."

You can't rationalize these sorts of things by saying that they weren't trying to destroy or that they are "suppressed" but Freeza and Buu are examples of trying as hard as they can to destroy something and it isnt remotely consistent to what has been shown previously in the series.

And as far as "One character beating up another counts as a feat, you saying we can't even use that to measure lmao, that is retarded." I never once said or even implied that defeating an opponent isnt a feat that should be considered, in fact I have said the complete opposite. I specifically referred to feats as far as destroying planets and solar bodies and things of that nature. But of course you ignored that like the rest of the time. You just love using the "strawman" with a passion apparently.

Boy, do we take this show seriously... we try to make everything fit, we look for congruence like it was written by Chejov but it wasn't, it was done by a japanese mangaka who only new how to draw and just had fun with it, we can't even find congruence between two consecutive episodes, but still there are folks trying to find it between two different series. The comparison between Freeza's two planetary attacks as previously stated(which I've never paid any attention to) goes to show this is not a bullet-proof series. Still, I love it.

Exactly the Freeza planetary attacks are a perfect example of how these "feats" aren't consistent and were never meant to be consistent because they were just trying to do things that were convenient for the plot and were never meant to be taken this seriously. He blows up a planet with one finger in his first form with no difficulty and then in his final form at full power being literally over 200x more powerful he cant blow up planet Namek. Why? because that was the coolest for the plot at the time and that was never meant to be used in this way.