At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

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At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:57 pm

Saiyans - Vegeta shows surprise and anger at Kakarotto's battle power, but ultimately he isn't really bothered by it and treats Goku like his disposable plaything. Kaioken x3 and x4 both bring out genuine wrath in Vegeta, but that's because of the fact that Kakarotto is such a low-life, so even at the very end of the arc, I don't think Vegeta really respects him. He treats the whole day like a terrible humiliation.

Namek - There's an argument to be made for Vegeta respecting Goku when he begs him to beat Freeza, but I'm not convinced. The begging was in a moment of extreme emotional distress, Vegeta's spirit had broken almost completely and he didn't care anymore. When he was revived, he laughed at Goku and Freeza and was glad they would die together because that will make him the strongest in the universe. So IMO that right there indicates he's still naturally thinking of himself as above every other person.

Androids - The end of this arc is when I think it becomes tough. There's a legitimate case to be made for Vegeta respecting Goku by the very end of this arc. Humiliation after humiliation, Vegeta finally admitted out loud that Kakarotto was their only hope, and that he himself stood no match against Cell. What sealed the deal, is that right after this, Goku sacrificed his own life with a smile. IIRC, Vegeta had a bit of a crisis over this, even more so than his usual crises over strength, and I think it's because he knew that he could never sacrifice his own life like that with a smile. Trunks had cracked his black heart just enough to let in the idea that it takes strength to give up your self and your life and your pride in order to save someone you love, and the fact that Goku had that strength and Vegeta knew that he himself did not, gave Vegeta his first inkling towards an explanation as to why Kakarotto was always so strong. Up till that point, it was a completely inexplicable concept to Vegeta that he couldn't explain, going against every notion and understanding he had been conditioned to believe since birth. But Vegeta growing the capacity to feel love compounded by Kakarotto's sacrifice made him think that maybe Kakarotto possessed some deeper, spiritual, more fundamental strength that was unique, and Goku's ability to sacrifice his life for someone else, despite knowing the same saiyan pride that Vegeta knew, and Vegeta's inability to do the same, is what made Vegeta finally clue in to the idea that Kakarotto was truly worth something.

Boo - At the end of this arc Vegeta finally admits out loud that he respects Kakarotto. He respects him to the degree of admitting that Kakarotto is a better person than he, Vegeta, prince of all saiyans. I will say that Vegeta spent most of the Boo arc going through a midlife crisis of sorts, and so he felt a lot of negative emotion towards Goku, maybe even hate. But I don't think he ever stopped respecting him. Vegeta probably wouldn't have stooped to the low, or ran the risk, of selling his own soul and will for a dishonorable power boost if he wasn't wise to the possibility that Goku was just better than him. If Vegeta was still in that incredulous stage of just hating Kakarotto and not understanding why he was stronger, than he would not have made a crazy decision like that. It was the stress of inferiority that made him become rash. So he definitely respected Goku by the time this arc begins, if not by the end of the Cell Games.

Super - Nothing to say here. Vegeta will openly admit to anybody at this point that Goku is his only equal. So to make this arc of the story interesting, let me pose the additional question; who else does Vegeta respect? Does he respect Gohan? Kuririn? Piccolo? How about Bulma? Does he respect any villains?

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by KBABZ » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:06 pm

Depending on how you look at it, I think their first encounter on Namek is when he respected him, but not in a positive way. There he learnt that Goku could be a formidable force and, as much as he loathed to admit it.

While it's non-canon, I think Vegeta got a bit more respect when he briefly saw Goku as a Super Saiyan on Namek, although obviously he wanted to surpass that soon after. For the Cell Arc I think it was by proxy of how talented Gohan was over Goku, making himself pale in comparison. I think this is also where he got to see some of Goku's battle smarts again, like mastering SS1 rather than chasing SS2.

On the opposite end, Vegeta was of course incredibly upset that Goku witheld SS3 from him for their fight in the Buu arc. I think it was Goku taking on Kid Buu and handling it much better than Vegeta that put it in perspective for him.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:14 pm

It wibble-wobbles between the end of the Cell Games and the Buu Arc in terms of when Vegeta really respected Goku in most regards.

For the second point, though, I'd say he definitely respects Whis, being Beerus's superior and his martial arts teacher. He also seems to have finally come to truly respect Gohan, as Kakarot's son really came into his own when he pushed himself as a warrior and broke his limits for the Tournament of Power. Vegeta seemed the most impressed with Gohan throughout the Universal Survival Arc, besides Goku himself.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by nickzambuto » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:09 am

Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:34 am

nickzambuto wrote:Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?
Never, he merely tolerates them.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by nickzambuto » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:38 am

KBABZ wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?
Never, he merely tolerates them.
He doesn't even respect Gohan, Piccolo, Bulma, or Trunks?

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:13 am

nickzambuto wrote:
KBABZ wrote:
nickzambuto wrote:Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?
Never, he merely tolerates them.
He doesn't even respect Gohan, Piccolo, Bulma, or Trunks?
Well, that depends on how one defines "respect".

I'd say that he doesn't 'respect' his family in the same way as he would Goku and the other Z-Warriors.

But to answer that question, he DEFINITELY respects Gohan now as a warrior. Ummm...... I think that's about it.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:52 pm

I'd say he'd already begun respecting Goku when he got his ass handed to him on Earth. It seemed he respected Freeza for his power, so I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for when Goku far surpassed him.
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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by Lionel » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:04 pm

The others bring up valid points. What we interpret as being "respect" could be seen in just about any arc, even during their first encounter on Earth, I daresay. Although at that time it was merely recognition of the egregious desecration of the systemic order of breed and class that Vegeta had been brought up in. During the Namek arc -- prior to his relinquishment of everything he held dear so he could allow himself to rest on the simple but infinitely meaningful principle of a Saiyan, any Saiyan, defeating Freeza -- there was a grudging recognition that Goku had improve so drastically. It made the prince question the farfetched nature of the Super Saiyan concept which was just a myth at that time -- even going so far as to personally contemplate if Goku couldn't be that Super Saiyan. Vegeta's acknowledgement of Goku was further strengthened when he admitted to the exhausted group after defeating Ginyu that he needed Goku in order to fight Freeza. You could say that the dire straits of the eventual war with Freeza coupled with Vegeta's personalised vendetta with the tyrant prompted him to look past his own vanity and pride in order to pursue the common goal of putting down his most hated enemy and oppressor.

Once the aforementioned nightmare was put to rest, Vegeta was free to pursue his pridely ambition of becoming the strongest. Whatever mitigating factors that may have curtailed his contentious zeal for being the strongest were gone now. To Vegeta, surpassing Goku and then engaging him in a rematch that sees the renegade Saiyan being killed were his ultimate goals. Vegeta still acknowledged Goku as being a formidable adversary, but I wouldn't say that it had evolved into the general idea of respect. Frankly, that didn't really come until the end of the Cell and Buu arcs. Vegeta verbally acknowledges Goku's power, but it's only after all his cards have been played and he's resigned himself to the reality that Goku is the last and best hope they've all got to survive. It's at the time of the final showdown with Buu that he finally gives way to an open positive expression of respect to his rival. Super might still retain Vegeta's acknowledgement of Goku as a rival, but they've made him revitalise his efforts to surpass the guy.

As for the others -- Gohan has always been one of the easier figures for Vegeta to respect. He showed great promise back in the Saiyan arc when they were enemies numerous times. In fact, from the onset during his initial introduction he gave homage to the fact that Saiyan hybrids possess strength that could even surpass their own. I think Gohan's status in Vegeta's eyes already had a foundation laid down. Unlike Goku, Gohan doesn't have the "stain" of hailing from a lower echelon in Saiyan society. He was born and raised in a culture that was completely divorced from the world Vegeta and Goku were conceived in. Plus, the genetics of hybridisation seem to beget powerful beings all around no matter who the Saiyan is so the classist social structure of Saiyans would not have been an issue to Vegeta. After that, Gohan continued to prove himself in the eyes of Vegeta by his striking outbursts of ruthless fury and strength which also happened to be convenient for the prince as they became mutual allies halfway through the Namek arc. Gohan's culmination into the strongest of everyone during the battle with Cell put together with the death of Vegeta's long time rival cemented his position as the standard whom both of the older Saiyans should judge themselves by. Vegeta even took it once step further by prescribing some of his old rivalry traits to Gohan during the lead up to the 25th tournament before Goku chimed in. In that brief window when they talked, it was like Gohan was starting to fill the same role Goku had once occupied with Vegeta even wanting to test himself against the guy during the tournament. Gohan's potential combined with the shared experiences they've had and the ferocity the young Saiyan can show when he's forced to seem to have the prince develop a fondness of him.

We hardly see Vegeta interact with any of the other Z-fighters. Similar to Gohan, Krillin also may have gained some recognition from Vegeta for his persistent will to survive and for sharing a proverbial foxhole with him as they confronted Freeza's group. It doesn't translate all too well into the later arcs become Krillin was getting outpaced before the androids were even a concept -- and if there's one thing Vegeta respects above all else, it's strength. Krillin is mostly discarded as a hapless outdated scrub whom Vegeta chastises Cell for taking out when the "real" challengers are standing right in front of him.

Other than Gohan and Krillin at one point, Vegeta seemed to hold a good deal of respect towards Piccolo after Freeza. For as long as Vegeta has known him, Piccolo has composed himself in a collected and efficient manner. He's the one non Saiyan who has the gumption to put up his fists should a fight be on the verge of breaking out between them. Unlike the others, he also was able to keep pace with the Super Saiyans for a time -- even surpassing them for a brief while after fusing with Kami. Vegeta probably realises that Piccolo is a cut above the rest of the other "weak earthlings", both in terms of power and strategic competency. It doesn't prevent the Saiyan prince from airing his speciest rhetoric, however. Whenever Piccolo showed some initiative that was ominous like after he saw the Namekian powering up in a rage because of Cell escaping from their clutches or when Piccolo proposed that he would go into the ROSAT in order to train, Vegeta dismissed or disagreed with him being able to achieve anything. To him, it's inconceivable for a non-Saiyan to be able to match their power and potential because they're not members of the "illustrious" and most powerful warrior race in the universe. Make no mistake, Vegeta did still show some recognition to Piccolo after having been surpassed in the Buu arc like when he entrusted him with the kids. More than that, he even confided in Piccolo his wishes to see Goku in the aftelife once he died -- a hope that Piccolo himself dashed with the reality of Vegeta's situation and crimes when he died. Like with Krillin, though, that trust and respect seems to have waned over time. Now Piccolo is considered to be little else but a disposable sideshow who's best worth is making Vegeta's job of mopping up the enemy easier by having them deplete their stamina a bit.

Can't say much about Vegeta's opinion of the others because he hardly ever interacts with them. Tenhinhan and Yamcha are inconsequential gnats who his subordinates killed many years back. Chaozu? I doubt Vegeta even has the poor little guy on his radar. Roshi has garnered more of Vegeta's attention than Chaozu ever has.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by GamerSkull » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:53 pm

He probably started truly respecting Goku during the final Buu fight where he actually voices it.

As for the other cast members, I agree that he mostly just tolerates them.
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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by nickzambuto » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:30 am

Vegeta must be a really hard guy to impress. Gohan was throwing hands with Freeza and the Ginyu Special Forces when he was like, five. Vegeta was literally right there watching it go down. Let alone all the chaos at the Cell Games. Yet only just now does he begin to respect Gohan? The onehanded Kamehameha that obliterated Cell down to the last molecule wasn't worth respect?!

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:40 am

nickzambuto wrote:Vegeta must be a really hard guy to impress. Gohan was throwing hands with Freeza and the Ginyu Special Forces when he was like, five. Vegeta was literally right there watching it go down. Let alone all the chaos at the Cell Games. Yet only just now does he begin to respect Gohan? The onehanded Kamehameha that obliterated Cell down to the last molecule wasn't worth respect?!
I think Vegeta did indeed start to respect Gohan then, but he quickly lost some of this respect when Gohan regressed and then still lost to Super Buu even after attaining the Ultimate power.

However, he still held some respect for him, as he was the one to mention Gohan's potential when him and Goku were recruiting fighters for the tournament with Champa's team from Universe 6. He was also the one to point to Gohan when Goku was recruiting for the Zen Exhibition Match, and he very definitely respected him greatly after Gohan proved his worth and managed to get close to reaching Goku's level.

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by Benedetto12 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:30 am

nickzambuto wrote:Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?
I think he began to respect Goku a bit back in Frieza-arc, it was growing arc by arc, finishing in Buu-arc where he admits that Goku is better than him, he just has a hard time admiting it. In Super we saw moments where his respect and friendship for Goku came aboard, like him beating Black because of him wasting Goku´s body and when he made Bermoud shut up, by telling him that Goku will reach UI.

IMO he respects a few members of the team:

Gohan: It´s really obvious, he knows about Gohan´s huge potential and respects him as a fighter, also he seems to trust him, before the exhibition match, he told Goku to bring Gohan because he is strong, something which Goku tends to forget.

Piccolo: While he considers him weak for being a namekian, Vegeta knows that Piccolo is a good fighter and a smart person.

Future Trunks: While Vegeta initially despised him, he learned about his history, and came to respect him a lot, even to the point of being really proud of him, and risking his life for him against Zamasu.

Roshi: It is really weird, he showed right in time to save him, they fought together, then told him to forfeit, that his job was already done and he should rest, it was a show of respect IMO

17: When they fought along the whole team to bring down Anilaza, he trusted in 17´s plan to bring him down, then after 17 sacrifices himself to save Goku and Vegeta, he became mad having 17 sacrifice as one of his reasons to fight. Also he obviously knows that the Android is madly strong.

While not part of the team, he also deeply respects and cares about Cabba taking him under his wing and putting him as one of his reasons to fight in the TOP

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Re: At which moment did Vegeta begin to respect Goku?

Post by emperior » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:28 am

nickzambuto wrote:Bonus Question: When did Vegeta begin to respect other members of the Dragon Team?
I think after the events of Namek he respected Gohan. Even before he had respect for Goku, he must have felt respect towards Gohan for being as brave as he was as a mere 5 years old. He definitely respected Gohan once he started his fight against Cell, so much that he apologized to him when he thought everything was going to end.

As for Goku, I think he definitely showed respect moments before he died on Namek, but probably when he thought Goku was already a Super Saiyan, he already had some respect for him.

About the other members of the Dragon Team, I don't think he really has respect for them. Maybe for Piccolo, and in Super he showed respect to Master Roshi at the Tournament of Power and maybe has even grown to respect 17, but I can't see him having a high opinion of the likes of Krillin, Tenshinan, Chaotzu and Yamcha. He is indifferent to them, meaning he wouldn't care if they died but he wouldn't be happy either.
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