Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:30 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Vegeta also ripped off half of Cell's body and left him in agony, what Vegeta can do with a Ki attack is way different than what he can do, not to mention Boo wasn't even at full power on that moment. Vegeta never had any hope at all, even before Boo showed his full power he knew he was going to die fighting. Piccolo also said it doesn't matter how many people went at Boo, implying he was on a whole another level compared to SSJ2s.

The plan was to stall Boo, it doesn't mean he was lollygagging for Trunks' sake. Both Goku and Boo considered the fight entertaining, so they certainly are on a similiar level.
You're forgetting that Cell was greatly suppressed while Boo was not, in fact we really don't know if Boo wasn't already at his full power against Vegeta. Boo's next manuever was not to power up but unleash a massive blast that injured Vegeta, following your logic then that means Boo only dealt such damage to Vegeta because it was a Ki attack. Additionally, Piccolo's statement was in fact a response to Boo's ki attack & durability and not just the ordinary power he had been showing, prior to that Piccolo was somewhat hopeful that Vegeta might be able to win. The fact that Vegeta even survived Boo's barrage of pain afterwards and still had the strength to battle is proof that Boo wasn't unimaginably stronger than Vegeta, this is backed up further by Goku stating that working together(as SSJ2s) then they should be able to defeat Majin Boo. If Boo could defeat an army of SSJ2s then Goku's statement would be an outright lie, I don't think Goku would make any ridiculous claim against such a serious foe.

And yes, Goku was lollygagging. His later statement that he could've defeated Fat Boo but just wanted the boys to have something to do is pretty clear, Goku may be overconfident at times but he's not a straight up liar or completely full of himself like Vegeta.
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:15 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
KBABZ wrote:That's because by using SS3 he was eating into the remaining time he had on Earth, not because SS3 directly tired him out.
But why wasting his time would affect his stamina?
As I said before, his heavy breathing is because his time in the world of the living is running out because he burned through a lot of it in the stress of going Super Saiyan 3.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:04 pm

theherodjl wrote:You're forgetting that Cell was greatly suppressed while Boo was not, in fact we really don't know if Boo wasn't already at his full power against Vegeta. Boo's next manuever was not to power up but unleash a massive blast that injured Vegeta, following your logic then that means Boo only dealt such damage to Vegeta because it was a Ki attack. Additionally, Piccolo's statement was in fact a response to Boo's ki attack & durability and not just the ordinary power he had been showing, prior to that Piccolo was somewhat hopeful that Vegeta might be able to win. The fact that Vegeta even survived Boo's barrage of pain afterwards and still had the strength to battle is proof that Boo wasn't unimaginably stronger than Vegeta, this is backed up further by Goku stating that working together(as SSJ2s) then they should be able to defeat Majin Boo. If Boo could defeat an army of SSJ2s then Goku's statement would be an outright lie, I don't think Goku would make any ridiculous claim against such a serious foe.

And yes, Goku was lollygagging. His later statement that he could've defeated Fat Boo but just wanted the boys to have something to do is pretty clear, Goku may be overconfident at times but he's not a straight up liar or completely full of himself like Vegeta.
Whenever they were suppressed or not it's irrelevant. Both were far stronger than Vegeta but got their bodies wrecked by a powerful attack Vegeta fired. Vegeta's blast actually was even less effective against Boo, since the later said it only hurt him a bit:
Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P7.1
Context: after Vegeta blasts a hole through Boo’s chest
Boo: “That hurt…a little bit…hehehe…”


Piccolo actually was completely astonished by Boo's power after he releases that explosion, what is silly if he's still using the same power level.

If anything Vegeta surviving Boo's explosion only further proves my point. Ki explosions are shown to be really uneffective, with Goku blocking Piccolo's explosion at the 23rd Budokai withtout a scratch and Vegeta failing to kill anyone, including a crippled Goku with his. The fact such a cheezy attack almost crippled Vegeta speaks volumes about their power gap IMO. Not to mention Vegeta is extremely durable (As evidenced by his durability feats on Saiyan Arc) and being a Majin would only further improve this, as shown by Spopovich being able to survive a kick that broke his neck.

Goku never implied a team of SSJ2s could take Boo at all. He actually agreed when Piccolo said it and revealed his plan was to use fusion, not gang up on Boo.

It's not because he said he could kill Boo that it would be a walk on the park. Goku was shown struggling a lot during the fight and even gritting his teeth to deflect Boo's Kamehameha. He then admited Boo was fairly strong and that he enjoyed the fight.
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Whenever they were suppressed or not it's irrelevant. Both were far stronger than Vegeta but got their bodies wrecked by a powerful attack Vegeta fired. Vegeta's blast actually was even less effective against Boo, since the later said it only hurt him a bit:
Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P7.1
Context: after Vegeta blasts a hole through Boo’s chest
Boo: “That hurt…a little bit…hehehe…”


Piccolo actually was completely astonished by Boo's power after he releases that explosion, what is silly if he's still using the same power level.

If anything Vegeta surviving Boo's explosion only further proves my point. Ki explosions are shown to be really uneffective, with Goku blocking Piccolo's explosion at the 23rd Budokai withtout a scratch and Vegeta failing to kill anyone, including a crippled Goku with his. The fact such a cheezy attack almost crippled Vegeta speaks volumes about their power gap IMO. Not to mention Vegeta is extremely durable (As evidenced by his durability feats on Saiyan Arc) and being a Majin would only further improve this, as shown by Spopovich being able to survive a kick that broke his neck.

Goku never implied a team of SSJ2s could take Boo at all. He actually agreed when Piccolo said it and revealed his plan was to use fusion, not gang up on Boo.

It's not because he said he could kill Boo that it would be a walk on the park. Goku was shown struggling a lot during the fight and even gritting his teeth to deflect Boo's Kamehameha. He then admited Boo was fairly strong and that he enjoyed the fight.
1. How isn't it relevant? You've been suggesting that Boo may have been suppressed so that defeats your own argument if you just want to brush any of Boo's possible other power away and stick to the power he demonstrates with Vegeta, that's like saying Cell was going to easily beat Goku using only the power he demonstrated against Goku and nothing more because its "irrelevant".
2. If Boo states that something hurt then it means it hurt even if it was a "little bit". Boo never makes statements regarding pain if its an attack from a truly weak foe and he always reacts with surprise if its a strong attack that forcibly pushes its way through him or pulverizes his being, his regen doesn't make him unafflicted by pain enough to determine that all attacks are ineffective.
3. You said its irrelevant so why is Boo's power not rising any suddenly "silly"?
4. Ki explosions are ineffective? Then I guess everyone besides Goku didn't try to hide in a deep chasm to escape Piccolo's very same explosive blast, or that Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Krillin didn't flee from the Boo's blast?
5. Vegeta was almost annihilated by Recoome's eraser cannon, or Cell's kamehameha, or Kid Boo's blast. If he has some greater resistance to powerful attacks then it seems to fail him at important moments.
6. Being a Majin doesn't give one additional durability from Ki attacks, Yamu & Spopovich were thoroughly killed by magic and a Ki blast just like anyone else. Spopovich recovering from a broken neck via kick is not the same thing as tanking a massive, crater-inducing blast.
7. Here's what Goku said.
Chapter: 462 (DBZ 268), P4.3
Context: Vegeta says he'll help Goku fight Boo
Goku: “We’ll definitely be able to defeat Majin Boo if we all do it together.”

It sounds like Goku means they can defeat Boo if himself, Vegeta, and Gohan battle Boo as SSJ2s.
8. Goku ALWAYS grits his teeth, sweats, and screams in pain whenever fighting an opponent while holding back, DBS has shown that more often it recent times. He fights not just to test his strength but also to test his opponent's strength and that include taking hits without going all out unless he's in immediate danger, its just Goku's style.
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Whatever » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:49 pm

Well he went toe to toe with a stronger buu than him and even told us he could beat Fat buu so yeah i think thats enough evidence he could.
Also Goku was holding back since he was stalling for time.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Doubtful. While he did tell Vegeta he could, he also thought he could beat Pure Boo before knowing of SSJ3's stamina drain.
He underestimated SSSJ3's stamina drain while alive,when he fought fat buu he was dead so ssj3 was not as taxting and fat buu was weaker than Kid Buu.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by GorgonMK » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:08 am

theherodjl wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Fat Boo marginally above SSJ2s? Vegeta got bent over by him and Piccolo stated Boo could take an army of SSJ2s.

Boo also fought toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku, a feat a opponent 3x weaker could never perform.
And yet despite being described as an opponent that Vegeta couldn't beat, Boo had a hole blasted through him pretty easily by said inferior opponent. Compare that to another one sided fight such as Piccolo vs powered-up Imperfect Cell, Piccolo's Ki attack didn't even put a scratch on Cell while Vegeta's attacks on Boo were inflicting damage but Boo's regen was reversing the affect. Boo was stronger than Vegeta by everyone's admission but he wasn't much stronger, other fights in DB between opponents where the fight was already decided didn't make it seem like there was hope as Vegeta demonstrated.

Also the Fat Boo was NOT fighting toe to toe with SSJ3 Goku, it was merely Goku's plan to hold back and stall Boo for Trunks to obtain the radar and so he could teach the boys fusion. If you want to make that argument then FPSSJ Goku was fighting toe to toe with Perfect Cell despite Cell still holding back an ample amount of power.
Super Boo got pierced by a bullet so a bullet=Super Boo.

The thing is, Boo doesn't care. He know that he is nigh invincible so a hole or two won't hurt him.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:27 pm

theherodjl wrote:Goku definitely would've been more successful than in his fight with Pure Boo. The Fat Majin Boo was only marginally stronger than the SSJ2 tier while Pure Boo was marginally weaker than the SSJ3 tier, if the SSJ3 multiplier from Goku's SSJ2 is applied then that's a difference of about 3x greater power that Pure Boo has over Fat Boo. Surely Goku could destroy 1/3rd the power of Pure Boo, right?
Actually this is quite inaccurate. Mr. Buu, the leftover good version most of whose energy was taken away by Evil Buu put up just as good if not better a fight against Kid Buu as SSj2 Vegeta did. Therefore a fully powered Innocent Buu was several times stronger than a Buu saga SSj2. I personally think that the difference between Innocent Buu and Kid Buu was surprisingly small, like 20% at the most. SSj3 Goku held back effort and controlled the entire fight against Innocent Buu, while he did struggle against Kid Buu (though his comments about his peril were likely somewhat exaggerated for dramatic effect). Also of note is the fact that in that first fight Goku was dead, so he could keep up the full power of SSj3 much more easily, as opposed to his power constantly leaking away while alive.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Rally 07 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:57 pm

Saturnine wrote: Actually this is quite inaccurate. Mr. Buu, the leftover good version most of whose energy was taken away by Evil Buu put up just as good if not better a fight against Kid Buu as SSj2 Vegeta did. Therefore a fully powered Innocent Buu was several times stronger than a Buu saga SSj2. I personally think that the difference between Innocent Buu and Kid Buu was surprisingly small, like 20% at the most. SSj3 Goku held back effort and controlled the entire fight against Innocent Buu, while he did struggle against Kid Buu (though his comments about his peril were likely somewhat exaggerated for dramatic effect). Also of note is the fact that in that first fight Goku was dead, so he could keep up the full power of SSj3 much more easily, as opposed to his power constantly leaking away while alive.
But nevertheless, Good Boo then should be at least comparable to Super Saiyan 2 levels of power. But I believe that he could've been a little stronger then. But I have to question where you got that "20 percent power gap" between Good Boo and Kid Boo. Would you mind explaining that for me?

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:26 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Saturnine wrote: Actually this is quite inaccurate. Mr. Buu, the leftover good version most of whose energy was taken away by Evil Buu put up just as good if not better a fight against Kid Buu as SSj2 Vegeta did. Therefore a fully powered Innocent Buu was several times stronger than a Buu saga SSj2. I personally think that the difference between Innocent Buu and Kid Buu was surprisingly small, like 20% at the most. SSj3 Goku held back effort and controlled the entire fight against Innocent Buu, while he did struggle against Kid Buu (though his comments about his peril were likely somewhat exaggerated for dramatic effect). Also of note is the fact that in that first fight Goku was dead, so he could keep up the full power of SSj3 much more easily, as opposed to his power constantly leaking away while alive.
But nevertheless, Good Boo then should be at least comparable to Super Saiyan 2 levels of power. But I believe that he could've been a little stronger then. But I have to question where you got that "20 percent power gap" between Good Boo and Kid Boo. Would you mind explaining that for me?
I said "up to 20 percent", it could be less. SSj3 Goku fought both versions of Buu and couldn't defeat either of them easily, but he had a considerably easier time with Fat Buu. He didn't have to exert hismelf so much and he wasn't pushed so hard. But still, he couldn't (or didn't want to) take a quick, decisive victory, which he would have been able to get if Buu was only around SSj2 tier. He clearly was leagues above that tier. Kid Buu wasn't much stronger than that though, seeing as how SSj3 Goku was still able to give him pause. And as we know, even a power difference of as little as 1,25x can let you utterly stomp the opponent.

SSj3 Goku >= Kid Buu > Fat Buu >>>>>>>> Mr. Buu >= SSj2 Goku/Vegeta

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:03 pm

Yeah, and it could be argued that he could do it easily, if he goes full power from the start and wastes no time at all. The only con is Ssj3 Draining his stamina, but other than that he'd have no trouble
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:26 pm

GorgonMK wrote:Super Boo got pierced by a bullet so a bullet=Super Boo.

The thing is, Boo doesn't care. He know that he is nigh invincible so a hole or two won't hurt him.
As I've already pointed out, Boo is able to alter the durability of his body in regards to weaker attacks. Kid Boo purposefully let Vegeta blow up his body but when Goku & Tenshinhan tried to use Ki attacks on Bootenks, he merely tanked their blasts without any damage to his body.
Saturnine wrote:Actually this is quite inaccurate. Mr. Buu, the leftover good version most of whose energy was taken away by Evil Buu put up just as good if not better a fight against Kid Buu as SSj2 Vegeta did. Therefore a fully powered Innocent Buu was several times stronger than a Buu saga SSj2. I personally think that the difference between Innocent Buu and Kid Buu was surprisingly small, like 20% at the most.
Vegeta didn't have access to his Majin power-up against Kid Boo and if you discount filler(which had Mister Boo putting up a much better fight than in the manga) then Mister Boo got wrecked worse than Vegeta did, the only reason he lasted as long was because of his regen. Based on that, I'd put Mister Boo's strength around the level of the Fat Majin Boo the minute he formed out of the shell, the level that Gohan said he might be able to beat if he used his full power or a level on par or maybe just above Dabura/Perfect Cell. If we also factor in Gotenks(Goku's confidence in fusion) then some level between a SSJ2 & SSJ3 is enough to destroy the Fat Boo.
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:32 pm

There is no "Majin Boost" for Vegeta. Babidi pulled out Vegeta's dormant power just like the Great Elder and the old Kaioshin did for Gohan. Why would that abandon him when Gohan's never did?
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:32 am

Babidi powering someone up is a separate action from enslaving them, therefore it shouldn't go away just because the enslavement is no longer in effect.

Good point about Mr. Buu doing worse than Vegeta if you discount filler. That would put Mr. Buu slightly below Vegeta's power. Depending whether you think Evil Buu took 60 or 70% of Fat Buu's power with him, that still puts a fully powered Fat Buu at 2/3 of SSj3 Goku's power at most, which means he should have very little trouble obliterating Buu if he wanted to. Goku stepping away and letting Gotenks handle this also proves how he thought he had everything under control and there's no need to worry, so yeah, I think Goku could beat Fat Buu quite easily.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:27 am

theherodjl wrote: Vegeta didn't have access to his Majin power-up against Kid Boo and if you discount filler(which had Mister Boo putting up a much better fight than in the manga) then Mister Boo got wrecked worse than Vegeta did, the only reason he lasted as long was because of his regen.
Saturnine wrote:Good point about Mr. Buu doing worse than Vegeta if you discount filler. That would put Mr. Buu slightly below Vegeta's power.
Why do you both think this?
Vegeta only had his opening salvo of ki blasts, before proceeding to get wrecked without landing a single h2h hit.
Mr Buu on the other hand lands a hit in h2h combat before regeneration becomes a necessity and also blasts away half of Kid Buu's body, but vertically instead of horizontally like Vegeta. He then gets wrecked of course, but I fail to see how that is Vegeta doing better, if filler is removed.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:24 am

dbgtFO wrote:Why do you both think this?
Vegeta only had his opening salvo of ki blasts, before proceeding to get wrecked without landing a single h2h hit.
Mr Buu on the other hand lands a hit in h2h combat before regeneration becomes a necessity and also blasts away half of Kid Buu's body, but vertically instead of horizontally like Vegeta. He then gets wrecked of course, but I fail to see how that is Vegeta doing better, if filler is removed.
It comes back to my earlier point that the Mister Boo got the short end of the stick of power that was quite a bit less than Pure Boo's to begin with, less than half of said power which surely wouldn't amount to being even on par with a SSJ2 and it shows. Mister Boo was beaten up, blasted apart, and tortured quite a bit worse than Vegeta, Kid Boo was never implied to have boosted the level of power that he used against Vegeta. If not for Mister Boo's regen than he likely would've been finished faster.
I'd put it like this.
SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta - 10
Fat Boo: 12
Mister Boo: 5
SSJ3 Goku: 40
Pure Boo: 36
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Saturnine » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:00 am

If SSj3 Goku was so much stronger than Fat Buu, he wouldn't have humored his ass with a somewhat even fight. Also, Vegeta's final explosion would likely have worked, considering how weak you have Buu here.

Mr. Buu was definitely not weaker than Super Perfect Cell, that's just preposterous.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by The Monkey King » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:48 am

Yes, because he said so.

His dead body could handle SSJ3's stamina drain, he could have vaporised Fat Buu if he felt like it.

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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Saturnine wrote:If SSj3 Goku was so much stronger than Fat Buu, he wouldn't have humored his ass with a somewhat even fight. Also, Vegeta's final explosion would likely have worked, considering how weak you have Buu here.

Mr. Buu was definitely not weaker than Super Perfect Cell, that's just preposterous.
But it wasn't an even fight, Goku just likes to battle and test an opponent's strength, sometimes at the expense of the fate of the world. Did Goku try his hardest against Freeza once he unlocked SSJ and should've been avenging Krillin? How about when he heard that strong, killer Androids would be coming and would kill most of the Z Senshi? Did he try he try to stop that? Or how about how he decided to milk out his fight with Cell for his own amusement and didn't stop to think about how his grand strategy of relying on Gohan had some serious holes in it by giving Cell a fighting chance against an unwilling opponent/child?
Goku lives for a challenge and even when he was the one at the disadvantage, he still wanted a thrilling fight. Its no different with Fat Boo.
Vegeta's blast didn't work because of Boo's hax regen. When you think about how Kid Boo wasn't annihilated by a stronger Goku's unrestrained kamehameha then it makes a little more sense in regards to Fat Boo surviving.
Why does it have to be preposterous? Mister Boo only had two fights in DBZ and was easily beaten in both, his track record prior to DBS was nothing special. He is essentially Dai Kaioshin's purity in a Boo form and the Kaioshin aren't known to be really strong outside of South Kaioshin or Zamasu.
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Re: Could Goku really have defeated Fat Buu?

Post by Ssjcell » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:27 pm

SSj3 Goku >= Kid Buu > Fat Buu >>>>>>>> Mr. Buu >= SSj2 Goku/Vegeta[/quote]
In super Goku says kid Buu was much more powerful than him ...

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