Do saiyans grow stronger as they fight, or just whenever they recover from near death?

[nickzambuto]

The standard thinking has always been that whenever a saiyan is injured in battle to the point of nearly dying, if they recover, they will become much more powerful than they were before.

But in that BoG interview (the same interview with the 6-10-15 scale) Toriyama mentioned saiyans grow stronger as they fight, so Goku could potentially surpass Beerus as they battle, or something to that effect. I remember this confused some people.

Now I'm watching DBZ ep 49, and saiyans growing stronger whenever they fight actually was mentioned way back when Vegeta first explained it all to Kiwi and Dodoria. The way Vegeta words it in my translation, it seems to me he's saying that saiyans always grow stronger when fighting, in accordance to the power of their opponent. So if their opponent is weak, the saiyan won't improve very rapidly. This explains why Goku wasn't reaping huge gains until Piccolo. Meanwhile if the saiyan is facing somebody incredibly powerful, they will very rapidly make big gains.

This extends to near death. If the saiyan is pushed to near death, that's pretty much being pushed to the limit. The saiyan grows stronger in response to the strength of the enemy, but perhaps the strength of the enemy is measured by how much effort and strain the saiyan goes through. So the biggest gains are actually in battles between equals who push each other to the limit. This also explains why Goku didn't make huge gains until Piccolo, because he was mostly fighting in tournaments and rarely pushed beyond his match strength (throwback to kid Goku explaining the difference between "match" strength and "battle" strength)

Are there any inconsistencies to this?

[KBABZ]

I always figured it was like a craftsman getting better at his art by practicing it; when talking to Cui (at least in the Kai dub), Vegeta mocks him for thinking that he could stand up to him despite cowering behind the likes of Frieza while Vegeta was out fighting he real battles. Despite mostly being a boast (Vegeta's supposed to be evenly matched to Cui for most of their lives), I think there's a grain of truth there.

At the same time, being warriors, Saiyans are probably adept that that sort of thing, both strategically and over the long run. For example, one of Goku's common tactics when fighting someone is to hold back and see what his opponent does to suss them out, as he did with Cell, so he learns how to tackle them when the fight gets real. And as in the example above, he gets stronger through plain old experience.

The source of the "zenkai" boosts as a kid meanwhile I think I can list. The earliest one I can think of is when he loses to Tao Pai-Pai, followed by getting his ass kicked by Tambourine, then King Piccolo, and then almost getting killed by the Ultra Divine Water. It happens again when he faces the youth-enized King Piccolo, and once more against Ma Junior. I'm not sure if outright death causes a Zenkai boost, but if it does then his defeat to Raditz would do this, followed by beating Vegeta. Goku('s body) then gets walloped by Captain Ginyu. Lastly we have the Heart Virus, getting blown up by Imperfect Cell at the Cell Games, and lastly the fight against Kid Buu most likely. This not counting any movie situations.

[SupremeKai25]

They grow stronger as they fight, not necessarily when they are about to die. Goku Black grew exponentially stronger twice in the middle of a battle, and each time he wasn't about to die, he just got overpowered for a moment and gained a power boost from that pain and anger.

[Lord Beerus]

It's both. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan grow stronger when they are beaten badly or are near death and recover (at least on Namek) and Goku Black gets strong any time he fights or takes damage.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's both. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan grow stronger when they are beaten badly or are near death and recover (at least on Namek) and Goku Black gets strong any time he fights or takes damage.

Really, Saiyans are built to get stronger, PERIOD.

[DBZ Macky]

Saiyans definitely grow stronger when they recover from near death, at least until the end of the Namek stuff.
But for the growing stronger as they fight part: Like, wouldn't any character get stronger as they continue to fight tougher battles? I don't see why it's a Saiyan specific thing.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fighting is like an all out sparring section, and it's well known that sparring gives you some considerable gains. So yeah, they (And everyone else who fights) get stronger after fighting. You can see this as Goku got stronger post Budokais, and Piccolo's BP is slightly higher post Raditz.

[Lionel]

We had Tenshinhan crowing about learning more techniques and becoming "stronger" way back in the 22nd tournament as Jackie Chun was fighting him. It's not just a Saiyan trait. Now zenkais? Yeah, those are exclusive to Saiyans. However, the general theme of practice and experience making perfect is applicable to everyone. If Toriyama had remembered that the earthlings knew how to copy techniques as well then they probably would have started using things like the Instant Transmission and Kaioken a long time ago.

This whole idea of constantly ascending power during a fight only came about as a result of Toei's ill-written creative machinations. Nothing indicates that their power grew just because they were fighting in the original manga. Also related to that notion is the inconsistent factoid of anger making any Saiyan capable of spiking their power level. If Toriyama and the studio were trying to be consistent then they would have known that Vegeta has never shown the aptitude for drudging out huge reservoirs of power when under duress. If that were so then we would have seen him doing it against Goku in the Saiyan arc, Freeza on Namek, and Cell after Trunks was killed. If they want to rationalise it as being some kind of hyper-adrenal outburst of strength in a fight or flight type situation then it should be biologically applicable to everyone since humans are also capable of absurd feats of endurance and strength when forced into a corner. Of course, we don't see Tenshinhan flying into an overwhelming rage over Chaozu as he's fighting Drum or with Krillin after Yamcha was killed in a suicide move by the Saibaman. No, it's just the Saiyans as always.

[buutenks]

Saiyans get zenkais after being healed from near death. Black is a special case, since Goku n Vegeta or Gohan or Trunks dont get zenkais seconds after getting a beating. That is just Black being a bit haxxed.

[Koitsukai]

I guess is both, although Black grew far stronger and faster than any other saiyan, nobody got stronger by the blow received as much as Black did, not even the saiyans fighting Black, I always thought it had to do with him being a god or something

The zenkai boost was said to have reached its peak, for Gohan when fighting gotenksbuu and in Super's manga Vegeta just couldn't get any stronger while fighting Black according to Gowasu or Shin, can't remember.

[ToshioWrites]

Toriyama in an interview I believe said zenkais became super minimal once they achieved super saiyan and zenkais weren't really relevant in the arc after the android arc in Z.

As far as the improving thing, thats inconsistent too. Goku didn't "improve" against Golden Freeza , instead Freeza just bled out which allowed goku and later vegeta to beat him up. In the u6 tournament goku didn't get stronger vs hit just by fighting but because he used kaioken. In the Goku Black arc, Vegeta only got stronger by training and Goku got stronger with his rage boost in episode 61 and then his fp khh in episode 66 but during their fights with goku black they didn't "improve".

in this arc though it appears that they are getting zenkais despite not fully recovering from near death and continuously fighting allows them to keep increasing their power but I guess they needed to bring back those things when the main antagonist was so far above goku and vegeta compared to freeza, hit and black

[Logania]

Recovering from near death absolutely, but besides Black, who is just a freak of nature when coming to power ups, there's never really a moment where any Saiyan gets stronger as they fight in the series to my knowledge.

If they do get stronger then it's kinda hard to know as Goku trashing the Ginyu Force/Nappa didn't give him a stronger power, he was still the same when he fought Ginyu/Vegeta after. If it's too strong of an opponent so he can improve, then there's really never been a time that a Saiyan fought someone stronger than them and they walked away or improve it's usually a sudden defeat which kicks in the Zenkai but that doesn't count. If it's an equal opponent then that never really happened where any Saiyan got a boost of power from an equal fight, Goku or Vegeta didn't improve during their bout at Majin Buu Saga, Goku didn't improve during Cell's fight or Freeza' s fight, Gohan didn't improve from Dabura's fight.

The only time I can think of someone boosting from fighting is Hit and hes not even a Saiyan lol

[lancerman]

Goku in early Dragon Ball was a lot like Uub at the EoZ where as he fought a battle he would slowly adapt to it and learn to figure out his opponent and get better over the course of the fight. They did a little bit of that in the fight with Beerus. I think that's what Toriyama meant.

The zenkai boost was just a happy coincidence that the series was built on things like Goku losing to a guy and then getting stronger than him. He lost to Roshi, then was largely stronger than him after that. He lost to Tao, trained with Korin, and got stronger. He lost to Tenshinhan and Piccolo, then trained with Korin again, and he passed both. He realistically lost to Vegeta, then was ahead of him the rest of the series albeit a day in the Cell arc. Then they made zenkai's a thing and it gave further explanation to that

[Kaboom]

The way that Toriyama touted that "stronger as they fight" quality in regards to Goku vs Beerus, and how it's been mentioned in the franchise a few times before (I know at least once in GT for sure), I've come to think that maybe it is something special that happens with Saiyans during the course of a single fight. If a fight isn't just a one-sided beatdown, and the Saiyan is able to hang in and keep up a good fight long enough some way or another, then their power will gradually surge up to match their opponent. It wouldn't necessarily be permanent though, and I'd assume the Saiyan's power would revert back down to their normal level once they relax.

I know of at least one fight in the main series where we probably witnessed this happen, and that's Goku vs Nappa. Nappa was severely outclassed in power level, being only about half as strong as Goku (4,000-ish vs 8,000+), but because of his insane natural toughness he was able to brush off most of Goku's blows and keep fighting back. Given how he gradually started putting up a better fight, it's very possible his power level was rising and he was like 6,000 or something by the time Vegeta called him off.

[Logania]

The way that Toriyama touted that "stronger as they fight" quality in regards to Goku vs Beerus, and how it's been mentioned in the franchise a few times before (I know at least once in GT for sure), I've come to think that maybe it is something special that happens with Saiyans during the course of a single fight. If a fight isn't just a one-sided beatdown, and the Saiyan is able to hang in and keep up a good fight long enough some way or another, then their power will gradually surge up to match their opponent. It wouldn't necessarily be permanent though, and I'd assume the Saiyan's power would revert back down to their normal level once they relax.

I know of at least one fight in the main series where we probably witnessed this happen, and that's Goku vs Nappa. Nappa was severely outclassed in power level, being only about half as strong as Goku (4,000-ish vs 8,000+), but because of his insane natural toughness he was able to brush off most of Goku's blows and keep fighting back. Given how he gradually started putting up a better fight, it's very possible his power level was rising and he was like 6,000 or something by the time Vegeta called him off.

That could also be a case of it. From your view on it to me, it sounds like through battle becoming more intense, they start to get sort of an adrenaline rush? If so, it would kinda be sort of when Goku is "starting to get excited" whenever he's outmatched or getting pretty serious in his battles.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way that Toriyama touted that "stronger as they fight" quality in regards to Goku vs Beerus, and how it's been mentioned in the franchise a few times before (I know at least once in GT for sure), I've come to think that maybe it is something special that happens with Saiyans during the course of a single fight. If a fight isn't just a one-sided beatdown, and the Saiyan is able to hang in and keep up a good fight long enough some way or another, then their power will gradually surge up to match their opponent. It wouldn't necessarily be permanent though, and I'd assume the Saiyan's power would revert back down to their normal level once they relax.

I know of at least one fight in the main series where we probably witnessed this happen, and that's Goku vs Nappa. Nappa was severely outclassed in power level, being only about half as strong as Goku (4,000-ish vs 8,000+), but because of his insane natural toughness he was able to brush off most of Goku's blows and keep fighting back. Given how he gradually started putting up a better fight, it's very possible his power level was rising and he was like 6,000 or something by the time Vegeta called him off.

That could also be a case of it. From your view on it to me, it sounds like through battle becoming more intense, they start to get sort of an adrenaline rush? If so, it would kinda be sort of when Goku is "starting to get excited" whenever he's outmatched or getting pretty serious in his battles.

Sounds like a better way of putting it.

Vegeta also gained some new resolve and put the hurting on Hakaishin Toppo in episode 126, but it didn't seem to be a tangible/permanent power increase. Future Trunks also displayed this, when he fought alongside Goku against Goku Black and Future Zamasu.

So, rather than Saiyans just getting stronger, period, it could be that it's closer to them getting more heated and focused in their power at the moment, allowing them to gain on opponents stronger than them even though their natural power doesn't retain this sudden surge in strength.

[Kaboom]

Exactly, it's like a tangible, intense Saiyan-powered adrenaline rush. Very apt description.

It also takes the age-old message that specific power gaps in numerical terms are largely meaningless, and emphasizes that they're a little extra meaningless for Saiyans, since under the right circumstances they can actually get stronger during a single fight.

[PsionicWarrior]

I think it's simply them taking damage that strengthen their cells, the more damage taken the better, near death being optimal.

[Saiga]

Exactly, it's like a tangible, intense Saiyan-powered adrenaline rush. Very apt description.

It also takes the age-old message that specific power gaps in numerical terms are largely meaningless, and emphasizes that they're a little extra meaningless for Saiyans, since under the right circumstances they can actually get stronger during a single fight.

That seems at odds with basically every other fight the Saiyans are in, though. Especially the examples where the Saiyans are pretty evenly matched with their opponents but aren't shown gradually gaining the upper hand, or noted to be doing so. Like Goku v Chun, or Vegeta vs 18.

[nickzambuto]

Exactly, it's like a tangible, intense Saiyan-powered adrenaline rush. Very apt description.

It also takes the age-old message that specific power gaps in numerical terms are largely meaningless, and emphasizes that they're a little extra meaningless for Saiyans, since under the right circumstances they can actually get stronger during a single fight.

That seems at odds with basically every other fight the Saiyans are in, though. Especially the examples where the Saiyans are pretty evenly matched with their opponents but aren't shown gradually gaining the upper hand, or noted to be doing so. Like Goku v Chun, or Vegeta vs 18.

Goku learning and improving on Kame's techniques doesn't count as him improving while fighting? Several characters actually make comments about Goku having grown stronger since the tournament, I know that Kuririn does when Goku fights Blue, even though only a few days had passed.

18 also had unlimited stamina whilst Vegeta was tiring, so all this means is that the gains aren't enough to actively account for stamina loss at the same time.