wrote a computer program to calculate power levels

[dragonball0900]

Additionally, King Cold was also said to be stronger than Namek Freeza and Future Trunks destroyed him also so I dont think that Future Trunks would have been weaker than Namek Goku for those reasons.

Like the user above me said, King Cold is Not stronger than Frieza, it was stated in the guidebooks, as well as Toriyama (I think he did say something in an interview about Frieza being the best of his family), as well as King Cold and Frieza themmselves saying that Frieza was the strongest in the universe. I think "King Cold is stronger than Frieza" is one of the very big misconceptions between the fanbase.

[PFM18]

I really dont think they would make it such a point of emphasis that he is stronger than before if he was suppressed to the point of being inferior to the previous version of himself. Goku was tired and that is the only Goku that he fought , that Goku was clearly much stronger than him so the only reasonable reason for him to come back would be if he was sure he could defeat the Goku that defeated him. And trunks made Freeza look like a total scrub. Additionally, King Cold was also said to be stronger than Namek Freeza and Future Trunks destroyed him also so I dont think that Future Trunks would have been weaker than Namek Goku for those reasons.

And how would Mecha Freeza be stronger than his previous, full state of power when Gohan confirmed that he was greatly suppressed? Goku was far off in space still and no one on Earth could defeat Freeza, what reason is there for Freeza to power up to any substantial level that compares to his full strength on Namek? We would definitely know if Freeza was at max strength since his organic parts would bulk up if that were the case, it wasn't though.
Where did you get the idea that Cold was stronger than Freeza? Cold actually confirmed that Freeza was the strongest in his own clan and in the universe. When Freeza's ship approached Earth, all that was said about Cold's strength was that it was comparable to Freeza's which was later stated by Gohan to be a greatly suppressed level of Freeza's power. Nowhere was it ever stated that Cold had power on par with Namek Freeza's full strength, let alone Mecha Freeza's full strength.

It appears that I have been mistaken. I could have sworn cold was stronger. I cant seen to find anything on it though.

See this is why I made this thread lol. Good point

[shadowfox87]

Writing a computer program itself is nothing impressive. What matters is the algorithm you used to compute the power levels. It's the methodology and logic used in the algorithm that is important. Once you have the algorithm down, it's quite easy to program. One can use feats, canon power levels up to Freeza saga, and multipliers to gauge things but otherwise a lot of it is going to be based on educated guesses. I also wrote an algorithm and calculated it using a log scale rather than exact power levels (which I think is outdated). This allowed me to come up with formulae and I put them into excel. I plan to update it following the manga as its power scaling is more accurate imo. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610&p=1428531

[PFM18]

Writing a computer program itself is nothing impressive. What matters is the algorithm you used to compute the power levels. It's the methodology and logic used in the algorithm that is important. Once you have the algorithm down, it's quite easy to program. One can use feats, canon power levels up to Freeza saga, and multipliers to gauge things but otherwise a lot of it is going to be based on educated guesses. I also wrote an algorithm and calculated it using a log scale rather than exact power levels (which I think is outdated). This allowed me to come up with formulae and I put them into excel. I plan to update it following the manga as its power scaling is more accurate imo. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610&p=1428531

I don't claim that this program is particularly impressive. Yes obviously it all comes down to educated guesses but using a program's computational program allows you to be more accurate than just picking random numbers that look nice. You pick "random" numbers in terms of the relationship between characters where "random" only refers to your educated opinion on what exactly that relationship is. Why would a log scale be neccessary?

And as far as the "manga" being more accurate I assume you are referring to the DB super manga. I was not discussing DB Super and I think you should post something about it in that forum

[shadowfox87]

I don't claim that this program is particularly impressive. Yes obviously it all comes down to educated guesses but using a program's computational program allows you to be more accurate than just picking random numbers that look nice. You pick "random" numbers in terms of the relationship between characters where "random" only refers to your educated opinion on what exactly that relationship is. Why would a log scale be neccessary?

And as far as the "manga" being more accurate I assume you are referring to the DB super manga. I was not discussing DB Super and I think you should post something about it in that forum

Yes, a computer can do calculations for you, but you haven't actually posted what the algorithm itself is. What is your methodology, your assumptions, and formulae? Stating that you made a computer program and then post the results of your computation does not make things more accurate. Post the actual methodology.

A log scale is used in mathematics and science for numbers when they are extremely high to scale things like earthquakes and pH. For power levels that go beyond billions to quintillions, it is wise to use a scale that allows you to compare the strength of the characters. The exact value of a power level is no longer important. Rather, it is important to know who is stronger than who and by what %.

As for the manga, the whole point of that is because the manga adaptation goes through Toriyama frequently and it is more consistent with power scaling than the anime. For example, SSJ3 Goku vs Android 17 in the manga while SSB Goku vs Android 17 in the anime. Before even programming anything, one must come up with an algorithm that is consistent so you want to use a source that is also consistent.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I still can't see the point of creating a program. Just read the manga, take note of the relation between powers and make the list. The most advanced thing you gonna need is the calculator on your cellphone.

[PFM18]

I don't claim that this program is particularly impressive. Yes obviously it all comes down to educated guesses but using a program's computational program allows you to be more accurate than just picking random numbers that look nice. You pick "random" numbers in terms of the relationship between characters where "random" only refers to your educated opinion on what exactly that relationship is. Why would a log scale be neccessary?

And as far as the "manga" being more accurate I assume you are referring to the DB super manga. I was not discussing DB Super and I think you should post something about it in that forum

Yes, a computer can do calculations for you, but you haven't actually posted what the algorithm itself is. What is your methodology, your assumptions, and formulae? Stating that you made a computer program and then post the results of your computation does not make things more accurate. Post the actual methodology.

A log scale is used in mathematics and science for numbers when they are extremely high to scale things like earthquakes and pH. For power levels that go beyond billions to quintillions, it is wise to use a scale that allows you to compare the strength of the characters. The exact value of a power level is no longer important. Rather, it is important to know who is stronger than who and by what %.

I haven't posted "the algorithm itself" mostly because I did not use an algorithm. An algorithm is not applicable in this case so I did not use it. I could give you the code that I used for the input but I did not use an algorithm because it is a different calculation each time.

A log scale is not used when the numbers themselves are extremely high, but when the difference between the values that you are using are very high. Like if you comparing one value that is thousands of times larger than another value, not situations like this where the numbers themselves are just large, it doesn't make sense to compare them using a log scale. However, you are right though the exact value is not as relevant as the difference between characters and by what percentage.

As for the manga, the whole point of that is because the manga adaptation goes through Toriyama frequently and it is more consistent with power scaling than the anime.

Yeah neither of these statements are actually true, although the second statement is purely subjective and in my opinion it is not true. The first statement, implying that Toiryama goes through the manga and not the anime or through the manga more than the anime, is not shown by anything and he works with both of the works and any difference in his involvement is probably by a negligible amount.

I still can't see the point of creating a program. Just read the manga, take note of the relation between powers and make the list. The most advanced thing you gonna need is the calculator on your cellphone.

Well people concentrate too much on the power levels themselves rather than the difference between each character and the % of that difference. By scaling each character off of each other by computing using exact values you allow for seeing how these differences in power interact with each other and they ultimately become more accurate than just guessing using numbers with a bunch of 0's in them.

Now, when compared to doing these calculations with a calculator, it is mostly for convenience purposes. It is faster and less tedious to do this via a program than doing all of these calculations by hand and writing them down. And possibly most importantly, making changes to your numbers becomes infinitely easier, where if you were doing this by hand with a calculator, if somebody convinces you of one point being different, you would have to redo the entire calculation by hand since each character scales off the last and so any one calculation makes a huge difference. If somebody changes your mind on something with your code, literally all you have to do is go and change that one number. Or, if you want to just play with the numbers and see how they change and what makes the most sense to you.

For example, I currently have the difference between ASSJ Vegeta and Semi-Perfect Cell being a difference of 70%. The numbers currently look like this.

[spoiler]Future Trunks Super Saiyan: 157.5 Million
Post Namek Goku Super Saiyan: 180 Million
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 198 Million
Android 18: 297 Million
Android 17: 321 Million
Imperfect Cell(pre-absorption): 257 Million
Super Namekian Piccolo: 327 Million
Android 16: 449 Million
Imperfect Cell(post-absorption): 454 Million
Semi-perfect Cell: 1161 Million
Super Vegeta: 1975 Million
Super Trunks: 1876 Million
Perfect form Cell(Suppressed): 2764 Million
Ultra Trunks: 2814 Million
Mastered Super Saiyan Goku: 4936 Million
Full-Powered Perfect form Cell: 7404 Million
Mastered Super Saiyan Gohan: 5430 Million
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 10860 Million
Super Perfect Cell: 10317 Million
Super Saiyan Trunks(Cell games): 2814 Million
Super Saiyan Vegeta(Cell games): 2962 Million
Piccolo(Cell Games) 1636 Million[/spoiler]

But if I were to decide that maybe Vegeta wasn't that dominant and he is maybe only 35% stronger than Cell at that time then the numbers look like this.

[spoiler]Future Trunks Super Saiyan: 157.5 Million
Post Namek Goku Super Saiyan: 180 Million
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 198 Million
Android 18: 297 Million
Android 17: 321 Million
Imperfect Cell(pre-absorption): 257 Million
Super Namekian Piccolo: 327 Million
Android 16: 449 Million
Imperfect Cell(post-absorption): 454 Million
Semi-perfect Cell: 1161 Million
Super Vegeta: 1568 Million
Super Trunks: 1490 Million
Perfect form Cell(Suppressed): 2195 Million
Ultra Trunks: 2234 Million
Mastered Super Saiyan Goku: 3920 Million
Full-Powered Perfect form Cell: 5880 Million
Mastered Super Saiyan Gohan: 4312 Million
Super Saiyan 2 Gohan: 8624 Million
Super Perfect Cell: 8193 Million
Super Saiyan Trunks(Cell games): 2234 Million
Super Saiyan Vegeta(Cell games): 2352 Million
Piccolo(Cell Games) 1636 Million[/spoiler]

Now suddenly since that difference is smaller ultimately everything is on a smaller scale and everyone after Vegeta becomes weaker. This would not be an easy change to do by hand and I did this in a matter of like literally two seconds.

But ultimately it does come down to your opinion what these differences are and I do not claim that mine is inherently better than anybody else's just because I use a computer program.

[shadowfox87]

I haven't posted "the algorithm itself" mostly because I did not use an algorithm. An algorithm is not applicable in this case so I did not use it. I could give you the code that I used for the input but I did not use an algorithm because it is a different calculation each time.

A log scale is not used when the numbers themselves are extremely high, but when the difference between the values that you are using are very high. Like if you comparing one value that is thousands of times larger than another value, not situations like this where the numbers themselves are just large, it doesn't make sense to compare them using a log scale. However, you are right though the exact value is not as relevant as the difference between characters and by what percentage.

Did you just say that you made a computer program and not use an algorithm? You do realize that the code itself is the algorithm right? Your methodology, your assumptions, and the math to calculate your numbers is the algorithm. It does not matter whether you put it into a program; what matters is the actual algorithm otherwise you could be generate random numbers within the program and there is no way for us to know. If you're using a different calculation each time, then you're using a loop but what are your parameters, variables, etc.? I'm a physician scientist. I do research and write programs all the time, so I'm very curious as to how you can write a program without an algorithm lol.

Also, that is precisely the point. Since there is such a large power gap between certain characters, a log scale is needed to allow us to compare them. This gives you a good distribution and graph. Exact power levels are outdated now. They were nice in the early days of DBZ but now people have power levels up to quintillions so a scale is much more reasonable.

Yeah neither of these statements are actually true, although the second statement is purely subjective and in my opinion it is not true. The first statement, implying that Toiryama goes through the manga and not the anime or through the manga more than the anime, is not shown by anything and he works with both of the works and any difference in his involvement is probably by a negligible amount.

Uhh, actually it is. This was already stated in multiple interviews. Toriyama sends his drafts to Toei. Toei animates it based on different animators perspective and interpretations of those drafts but unlike the manga, not every detail is supervised. As long as Toei follows the draft, the rest is up to them how to animate it. In contrast, Toyotaro actually sends his drawings to Toriyama and they do get revised.

- Toriyama himself has already stated that when he supervises the anime, there's many things that bug him but when he looks at Toyotaro's compositions, they are almost perfect.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/


- When asked if Toriyama has any advice or criticisms, all he could say was to use more diverse angles but otherwise he is perfectly satisfied.

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/

- Toytoaro drew half of the character designs for the Gods of Destruction among many other things way before the anime.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/02/17/dr ... ump-issue/

- Toyotaro sent Toriyama a drawing of the planet where the U6 Tournament was being held. Toriyama sent it back to him to make it bigger than the Super Dragon Balls.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... r-anatomy/


-Here it says that Toriyama checks the storyboard of every chapter Toyotaro draws before it is released and Toriyama will make changes, even if they are major changes. When told that the animators may use Toyotaro's manga as reference, Toriyama responded, "Oh that's good! That should keep them on track!", implying that they need to be kept on track by Toyotaro since he's on track already.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/


-A lot of people didn't like the Zamasu arc in the manga as compared to the anime, but in fact, the manga adaptation was being supervised more closely with Toriyama. Vegeta turning into SSG in the manga was personally supervised by Toriyama. People thought Merged Zamasu was too weak in the manga, but it was actually Toriyama who said that two SSBs was enough to take him on.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... alk-vol-2/



A great example of correction to power scaling is SSJ3 Goku vs Android 17 in the manga vs SSB Goku vs Android 17 in the anime. So regardless of what you believe, the manga is more consistent with less power scale inconsistencies.

[PFM18]

Did you just say that you made a computer program and not use an algorithm? You do realize that the code itself is the algorithm right? Your methodology, your assumptions, and the math to calculate your numbers is the algorithm. It does not matter whether you put it into a program; what matters is the actual algorithm otherwise you could be generate random numbers within the program and there is no way for us to know. If you're using a different calculation each time, then you're using a loop but what are your parameters, variables, etc.? I'm a physician scientist. I do research and write programs all the time, so I'm very curious as to how you can write a program without an algorithm lol.

The input that is used in a program is not neccessarily an algorithm. An algorithm refers to something specifically used within the program not the input of the program itself.
Regardless, I don't have interest in arguing semantics about programming with you.

Also, that is precisely the point. Since there is such a large power gap between certain characters, a log scale is needed to allow us to compare them. This gives you a good distribution and graph. Exact power levels are outdated now. They were nice in the early days of DBZ but now people have power levels up to quintillions so a scale is much more reasonable.

Now it is clear that you are talking about Dragon Ball Super. These incredibly large gaps do not exist in DBZ and I was talking about making a program to model DBZ power levels not DBS. This thread is about power levels during the Cell Saga so I have no idea why you brought up DBS.

Using the same system to chart powerlevels in DBZ as to chart DBS would be completely asinine and I was not suggesting that be done. You are right the numbers would be in the quintillions and it would be dumb. However, when I do make programs to model DBS and to avoid this massive inflation I use a scale in which either Super Saiyan God Goku from BoG or SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga is considered a 1 and it scales linearly from there. I am not concerned with comparing characters with a difference in strength of millions of times. If you are millions of times weaker you are irrelevant to the story.

In the interview that you cite you conveniently didn't underline the part where Toriyama says that when he sees something in the anime that bugs him he asks them to fix it. Ultimately everything is approved in the anime too, he oversees both the anime and the manga this isn't unique to the manga.

And even if the manga had more Toriyama involvement that doesn't mean it has better power scaling. Even your example you give about it being "better" power scaling you are literally just saying your personal opinion that 17 shouldnt be SSB level. That is not objectively more consistent that is your preference. How about Trunks being on par with SSJ3 Goku in his SSJ2 form when he comes to the present timeline? isn't that a bit dumb? Or how during U6 apparently if you transform into SSB a second time you lose 90% of your power? Since when does that make sense?

[shadowfox87]

The input that is used in a program is not neccessarily an algorithm. An algorithm refers to something specifically used within the program not the input of the program itself.
Regardless, I don't have interest in arguing semantics about programming with you.

I never stated input. An input is what the user enters into the algorithm and the output is given. In your first post, all I see is the output, no explanation as to what the algorithm is. The code itself and the methodology is an algorithm. This is programming 101 that's even taught in high school. In interviews for jobs, you will be asked to actually write and explain your algorithm rather than your code. As the code is easily written, companies are more interested in your methodology and approach. I know because I've interviewed a few PhD candidates.

Now it is clear that you are talking about Dragon Ball Super. These incredibly large gaps do not exist in DBZ and I was talking about making a program to model DBZ power levels not DBS. This thread is about power levels during the Cell Saga so I have no idea why you brought up DBS.

Using the same system to chart powerlevels in DBZ as to chart DBS would be completely asinine and I was not suggesting that be done. You are right the numbers would be in the quintillions and it would be dumb. However, when I do make programs to model DBS and to avoid this massive inflation I use a scale in which either Super Saiyan God Goku from BoG or SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga is considered a 1 and it scales linearly from there. I am not concerned with comparing characters with a difference in strength of millions of times. If you are millions of times weaker you are irrelevant to the story.

As stated before, comparing characters to see how much stronger they are, gives us an indication of their strength as we can only go by feats now rather than exact power levels. Regardless of the algorithm you will use, there will be assumptions made. The ultimate goal of course would be to model power scales even in DBS, not just DBZ.

In the interview that you cite you conveniently didn't underline the part where Toriyama says that when he sees something in the anime that bugs him he asks them to fix it. Ultimately everything is approved in the anime too, he oversees both the anime and the manga this isn't unique to the manga.

I didn't conveniently exclude anything. I sourced the entire interview and screenshotted it. The anime is also supervised by Toriyama, but not to the same degree. Every storyboard of every chapter in the manga is sent to Toriyama. He revises many details such as angles and size of the scenery.

And even if the manga had more Toriyama involvement that doesn't mean it has better power scaling. Even your example you give about it being "better" power scaling you are literally just saying your personal opinion that 17 shouldnt be SSB level. That is not objectively more consistent that is your preference. How about Trunks being on par with SSJ3 Goku in his SSJ2 form when he comes to the present timeline? isn't that a bit dumb? Or how during U6 apparently if you transform into SSB a second time you lose 90% of your power? Since when does that make sense?

If you think Android 17 is at SSB level after the Buu saga, then you believe that he is stronger than SSleG. Goku in SSJ3 didn't stand a chance against Beerus and it was stated that even with fusion, he wouldn't. Android 17 being on par with SSB is absurd for him through training to be above Kid Buu and above SSG Goku that quickly. Freeza is an exception as it was stated he was a genius. Future Trunks mastered SSJ2 beyond Goku or Vegeta. It's not dumb at all. It makes perfect sense as Trunks has only been training in SSJ2 while Goku and Vegeta have surpassed SSJ2 and no longer are interested in mastering that form. The power output hence of SSJ2 matched that of SSJ3. We learned already that SSJ transformations are not simple multipliers and that there are also grades. Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta for example, both in the anime and manga, also surpassed SSJ3 Goku. A person with training in a lower transformation can indeed match or surpass someone in a higher transformation. SSB takes a lot of stamina, so using the transformation repeatedly does drain it significantly. This is why, in the manga, Goku uses it sparingly. His strategy to defeat Hit for example was to switch between SSG and SSB, so that he can use short bursts of SSB at 100% power. Vegeta used the same strategy against Black. That is, until they discovered MSSB.

[GigaDrill]

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