How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
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How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
It seems obvious that Ultimate Gohan is simply all of Gohan's power drawn out into his base and that he can no longer transform (or if he can, it would not increase his power) but it is also suggested that a Fusion of Gohan and Goku would be able to transform into Super Saiyan and it would actually increase their power.
So how would that work? Does the Fusion benefit from Gohan's potential being unlocked and from Goku being able to transform into a Super Saiyan? Would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan be able to get their dormant power unleashed as well? Also, would the Fusion affect the increase from Super Saiyan since only half of the components can actually use it?
Feel free to discuss for both a hypothetical Metamoran and Potara fusion. You can also discuss hypothetical names for the Fusions since I think I read somewhere "Gokan" means "rape" in Japanese or something like that. Would one Fusion be a mix of "Goku" and "Gohan" and the other be a mix of "Kakarot/Kakarotto" and "Gohan"?
So how would that work? Does the Fusion benefit from Gohan's potential being unlocked and from Goku being able to transform into a Super Saiyan? Would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan be able to get their dormant power unleashed as well? Also, would the Fusion affect the increase from Super Saiyan since only half of the components can actually use it?
Feel free to discuss for both a hypothetical Metamoran and Potara fusion. You can also discuss hypothetical names for the Fusions since I think I read somewhere "Gokan" means "rape" in Japanese or something like that. Would one Fusion be a mix of "Goku" and "Gohan" and the other be a mix of "Kakarot/Kakarotto" and "Gohan"?
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Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
The fusion would just use the "Ultimate" state since it already allows you to bring out all your power so instead of having to transform into ssb which drains stamina, you can use all your power without "transforming" , lets assume the bang is just used to tell us when he's using his real power or not in the anime. So it would be like warriors like jiren, toppo, hit, etc who just power up and don't transform
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Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Maybe going Super Saiyan would result in Gotenks-style black-and-gold striped hair. XD So basically the "Goku half" of the fusion going Super Saiyan while the "Gohan half" is just going to "Ultimate/Mystic" full power without physically transforming.
As for names, I've always had the thought that this fusion could be named "Kuhan" even though it's a little different from the established fusion name pattern. Maybe "Gokhan" (which would be written go-ku-han in Japanese -- removing the extended vowel from "Gokuu" and the "go" from "Gohan") could work while avoiding the implications that "Gokan" apparently has.
As for names, I've always had the thought that this fusion could be named "Kuhan" even though it's a little different from the established fusion name pattern. Maybe "Gokhan" (which would be written go-ku-han in Japanese -- removing the extended vowel from "Gokuu" and the "go" from "Gohan") could work while avoiding the implications that "Gokan" apparently has.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Dragon Ball Super has blatantly put that Ultimate is a transformation (supported by Movie 13 and Movie 14, where Gohan powers-up the same way, which means Ultimate form is not a permanent state. And there's physical change as well). That's why he can't transform, as far as we know, one cannot use two transformations at the same time.
A fusion between Goku and Gohan from Majin Buu saga would most likely use the Ultimate transformation, as it was stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3 back then. and he would not be able to transform into any of the Super Saiyan forms.
A fusion between Goku and Gohan from Majin Buu saga would most likely use the Ultimate transformation, as it was stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3 back then. and he would not be able to transform into any of the Super Saiyan forms.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Old Kaioshin criticizes transformations and says they're the wrong way of doing things...while giving Gohan a new transformation? That...makes no sense. Ultimate is just all of Gohan's power drawn-out into his regular form. That's the point.Grimlock wrote:Dragon Ball Super has blatantly put that Ultimate is a transformation (supported by Movie 13 and Movie 14, where Gohan powers-up the same way, which means Ultimate form is not a permanent state. And there's physical change as well). That's why he can't transform, as far as we know, one cannot use two transformations at the same time.
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3Grimlock wrote:A fusion between Goku and Gohan from Majin Buu saga would most likely use the Ultimate transformation, as it was stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan 3 back then. and he would not be able to transform into any of the Super Saiyan forms.
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”
Here Old Kaioshin says that they can transform after Fusion, but it won't be necessary. So Base "Gokuhan" would be more than enough to beat Gotenks-Boo. Unless you think the Potara is just that massive of an increase, then the reason for Gokuhan being so strong in base would be because of how strong Gohan's base form is.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
I could make you a list of things in a huge scroll that do not make sense in Dragon Ball.Analytic wrote:Old Kaioshin criticizes transformations and says they're the wrong way of doing things...while giving Gohan a new transformation? That...makes no sense.
No, that really isn't. And like I said, there is physical change, so it is a transformation. Gohan's base form back in Dragon Ball Z had short bang, a thin hair beside the bang and they were to left side. In Ultimate transformation, the thin hair vanishes, the short bang would grow and it would move to the right side. His eyes also change.Analytic wrote:Ultimate is just all of Gohan's power drawn-out into his regular form. That's the point.
In Dragon Ball Super, he has no bang at all but in the Ultimate form Gohan has it. And speaking of it, Gohan "regained" the Ultimate form after transforming into Super Saiyan 2 and continued to power-up, his hair kept flashing from yellow to black (a nod to Super Saiyan transformation sequence in its first appearance, which was from black to yellow). Clearly saying to us that it is a transformation. Unless you want to say that "base form" itself is a transformation, Gohan willingly transformed into Super Saiyan 2, then powered-up to his base form... That would make to the list of things that do not make sense by the way.
I didn't intend to sound as if I was talking about power level/who would beat who. I said that thinking about that if the fusion were to transform, he would use the Ultimate form, not a Super Saiyan form.Analytic wrote:Here Old Kaioshin says that they can transform after Fusion, but it won't be necessary. So Base "Gokuhan" would be more than enough to beat Gotenks-Boo. Unless you think the Potara is just that massive of an increase, then the reason for Gokuhan being so strong in base would be because of how strong Gohan's base form is.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Regardless of whatever mixed-up nonsense Super perpetuated about Gohan's Ultimate power-up... I've always thought that maybe "Kuhan" would end up with some sort of hybrid transformation structure. Where he has an immensely powerful base form thanks to Gohan, but then his Goku half gives him Super Saiyan but it only increases his power a few times over instead of the full 50x and beyond.
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Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Well, I don't really follow Dragon Ball Super... My argument is based solely off the manga. Even at the end of Z, it appears that Gohan's eyes are still fully outlined, though it's a little hard to tell because of his glasses. They may not be sharp, but that's because he's not shown serious/fighting.Grimlock wrote:No, that really isn't. And like I said, there is physical change, so it is a transformation. Gohan's base form back in Dragon Ball Z had short bang, a thin hair beside the bang and they were to left side. In Ultimate transformation, the thin hair vanishes, the short bang would grow and it would move to the right side. His eyes also change.
In Dragon Ball Super, he has no bang at all but in the Ultimate form Gohan has it. And speaking of it, Gohan "regained" the Ultimate form after transforming into Super Saiyan 2 and continued to power-up, his hair kept flashing from yellow to black (a nod to Super Saiyan transformation sequence in its first appearance, which was from black to yellow). Clearly saying to us that it is a transformation. Unless you want to say that "base form" itself is a transformation, Gohan willingly transformed into Super Saiyan 2, then powered-up to his base form... That would make to the list of things that do not make sense by the way.
Even though some things may not make sense in DB, I think it's truly redundant to argue that Old Kaioshin would give Gohan a new transformation when he's clearly against them. There would be no reason for Old Kaioshin's statement to even exist. I'm sure if Toriyama truly intended for Ultimate to be a transformation he would've just left that line out.
Understood, I'm just pointing out that Old Kaioshin is saying that Gokuhan without any kind of transforming would be more than enough to handle Gotenks-Boo. Do you think that a fusion of Goku and non-Ultimate Gohan would be able to easily defeat Gotenks-Boo in base? Do you think the Potara are that powerful?Grimlock wrote:I didn't intend to sound as if I was talking about power level/who would beat who. I said that thinking about that if the fusion were to transform, he would use the Ultimate form, not a Super Saiyan form.
I've read someone's theory that only the power Goku contributes to the fusion would gain power from Super Saiyan. So for example:Kaboom wrote:Regardless of whatever mixed-up nonsense Super perpetuated about Gohan's Ultimate power-up... I've always thought that maybe "Kuhan" would end up with some sort of hybrid transformation structure. Where he has an immensely powerful base form thanks to Gohan, but then his Goku half gives him Super Saiyan but it only increases his power a few times over instead of the full 50x and beyond.
Goku: 1
SS Goku: 50
Gohan: 100
Gokuhan: 101 (Goku + Gohan)
SS Gokuhan: 150 (SS Goku + Gohan)
Now obviously Fusion is not simple addition, but I think the numbers still illustrate the point I am trying to make. Does that seem like a feasible theory in your opinion?
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Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
It's simple, I would think.
Gokhan would be able to ascend to the Ultimate state like Gohan, but he CAN transform into a Super Saiyan if he wants; it's just not worth the time and stamina to transform instead of simply bring out that power with Ultimate.
Technically speaking, ALL Super Saiyan forms besides the god forms are a means by which a Saiyan brings out latent potential power; Ultimate is merely a mystical way of doing it that Gohan gained the ability to ascend to with Elder Kaioshin's ritual, and the best possible way at that.
Gokhan would be able to ascend to the Ultimate state like Gohan, but he CAN transform into a Super Saiyan if he wants; it's just not worth the time and stamina to transform instead of simply bring out that power with Ultimate.
Technically speaking, ALL Super Saiyan forms besides the god forms are a means by which a Saiyan brings out latent potential power; Ultimate is merely a mystical way of doing it that Gohan gained the ability to ascend to with Elder Kaioshin's ritual, and the best possible way at that.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
Going solely by the manga, all the evidences I mentioned are still valid. Everything I said appear in the manga as well. There's also the eyebrows to take into consideration. If you take a good look at the images below you'll notice a consistency; in the manga, it doesn't matter Gohan's expression, his eyebrows are always diagonally straight, however, in his base form (even before he gets the Ultimate transformation), his eyebrows made a curvature.Analytic wrote:Well, I don't really follow Dragon Ball Super... My argument is based solely off the manga. Even at the end of Z, it appears that Gohan's eyes are still fully outlined, though it's a little hard to tell because of his glasses. They may not be sharp, but that's because he's not shown serious/fighting.
Ultimate Gohan laughing:
Ultimate Gohan surprised:
Base Gohan:
This might seem nitpick or whatever, but Toriyama was really consistent with these things, hell, I don't even remember a single panel where he forgot to draw lightnings for Super Saiyan 2. And speaking of it, this characteristic I'm talking about the Ultimate form is also a characteristic of Super Saiyan 2 if I'm not wrong. I don't remember Super Saiyan 2 Goku, Vegeta or Gohan with curved eyebrows in the manga, they were always diagonally straight. This also supports the idea that the Ultimate is a transformation, and you can see the differences through these not-so-minimal details. I must also say that I don't see the outlined eyes in end of Z Gohan.
You may be right, maybe Toriyama intended Ultimate form to be something permanent when he came up with it, but this is not what we have seen in the actual works, i.e., anime, movies and possibly even in the manga (let's see how Toyotaro will handle this in his Dragon Ball Super manga).Analytic wrote:Even though some things may not make sense in DB, I think it's truly redundant to argue that Old Kaioshin would give Gohan a new transformation when he's clearly against them. There would be no reason for Old Kaioshin's statement to even exist. I'm sure if Toriyama truly intended for Ultimate to be a transformation he would've just left that line out.
I don't really care about power level/who would beat who. I gave up this subject a couple of years ago and now I avoid this kind of conversation. I think everything is or might be possible. Who knows?Analytic wrote:Understood, I'm just pointing out that Old Kaioshin is saying that Gokuhan without any kind of transforming would be more than enough to handle Gotenks-Boo. Do you think that a fusion of Goku and non-Ultimate Gohan would be able to easily defeat Gotenks-Boo in base? Do you think the Potara are that powerful?
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
That would be a very good name because a fusion between the two would probably have Gohan's bottomless potential while also actually be able to draw out that potential by means of Goku's ability to push himself to the edge. This means that Gokan would be able to figuratively rape any other fighter so fucking hard. It would be so fucking cool I swear to god.Analytic wrote: I think I read somewhere "Gokan" means "rape" in Japanese or something like that.
Re: How would a Fusion of Goku and Gohan work (transformation-wise)?
The name Gokan would still not go over very well. While you may believe the term "rape" wouldn't be offensive and rather badass sounding there, it's unfortunately a very real thing that isn't to be joked about, and very unfitting with Japanese culture as it is. Regardless of how strong they are, it would not be right. Some of the audience I'm sure may have at one point or another been a victim of the horrid crime, and no context would make it right.Puaru wrote:That would be a very good name because a fusion between the two would probably have Gohan's bottomless potential while also actually be able to draw out that potential by means of Goku's ability to push himself to the edge. This means that Gokan would be able to figuratively rape any other fighter so fucking hard. It would be so fucking cool I swear to god.Analytic wrote: I think I read somewhere "Gokan" means "rape" in Japanese or something like that.
I honestly think that maybe they thought of having Gokan as this fusion, and then the second it came out of their mouths, they realized, "we didn't actually mean that, excuse me!" I mean why else would Toriyama go through the trouble of making Vegetto a thing instead when he could have easily not had Buu absorb Gohan and then be able to avoid bringing Baba and Vegeta into the mix? (Though I love Gohan, I'm glad Vegeta finally got more screen time)
Goku: Are you a Yoshi?
Piccolo: Yes, Goku, I'm a green ****ing dinosaur.