Piccolo (post three years training, pre Kami fusion)

[ahill1]

How strong do you think that Piccolo, post the three years training for the androids and before fusing with Kami-sama is? Weaker than Freeza? As strong as Freeza? Way stronger than Freeza? Stronger than Goku and Trunks from three years earlier?

I personally go with the latter (stronger than Goku and Trunks SSJ [defeating mecha freeza]), but I am open to different opinions.

[Madason of Gotha]

I'd say high tens of millions to low hundred million. I think he would outlast 100% Freeza on account of his better stamina and endurance, but he still was far weaker than SSJ Goku over Vegeta at this time

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I definitely think Piccolo is considerably stronger than SSJ Goku and Trunks from 3 years ago. He wouldn't be asking to fight 20 alone if that were the case and Kuririn even lumps him with the Super Saiyans.

[Pantalones]

Definitely stronger than Freeza, no question about that. How much stronger than Freeza is hard to pin down since we don't know exactly how strong #19 and #20 were relative to Freeza and the initial Super Saiyans.

If #19 and #20 were as strong as Freeza or even stronger, then beginning-of-Android-Saga Piccolo pretty much has to be stronger than SSj Goku on Namek or SSj Trunks when he was first introduced. He took a beam to the chest off-guard, got some of his energy absorbed, and STILL humiliated #20 (who had a boost from the absorbed energy from Piccolo and all of Yamcha's energy) with what appeared to be little effort.

If #19 and #20 are weaker than 100% Freeza before absorptions, then maybe Piccolo could've still been closer to the level of the early Super Saiyans.

But based on both characters' performance against #17, though, I almost want to say he's as strong as beginning-of-Android-Saga Trunks. Maybe even a bit stronger -- in the fight that broke out after #18 vs. Vegeta was over, Trunks was taken out of the fight by #18 swinging and throwing Vegeta into him as he was trying to get up after the first hit, while Piccolo took two direct hits from #17 himself. Vegeta's clearly the strongest of the three here, he gets up and tries to blast #18 again even after all the punishment he's taken... but Piccolo and Trunks really don't seem far apart at all at this point.

[Kamiccolo9]

Around as strong as Goku and Trunks were when we first see them as Super Saiyans, I guess. Maybe somewhat stronger. The whole point of his training during the three year gap was to beat guys who were stronger than Freeza, and he didn't seem to concerned about the prospect of fighting guys that strong on the way to the city where 19 and 20 were.

[PFM18]

Considering he conveniently caught up to the Saiyans despite their 50x boost in power during this time I would definitely say this would be considered an "asspull" if this was in DBS.

That said, I think he is slightly stronger than 100% Freeza. He was pretty close to the SSJs

[GigaDrill]

Considering he conveniently caught up to the Saiyans despite their 50x boost in power during this time I would definitely say this would be considered an "asspull" if this was in DBS.

I know what you're implying but I think most people still would consider that an asspull if they thought seriously about it.

[Michsi]

Considering he conveniently caught up to the Saiyans despite their 50x boost in power during this time I would definitely say this would be considered an "asspull" if this was in DBS.

I know what you're implying but I think most people still would consider that an asspull if they thought seriously about it.

Don't these things apply to powers that happen over night with no real reason? Back then namekians were considered formidable as far as power went (average namekian fighter was stronger than average saiyan) and he had been training daily for three years with Goku as a SSJ. Besides, I seem to remember that the 50x thing got retconned and it was something like 10x (interview?)

[PFM18]

Considering he conveniently caught up to the Saiyans despite their 50x boost in power during this time I would definitely say this would be considered an "asspull" if this was in DBS.

I know what you're implying but I think most people still would consider that an asspull if they thought seriously about it.

Don't these things apply to powers that happen over night with no real reason? Back then namekians were considered formidable as far as power went (average namekian fighter was stronger than average saiyan) and he had been training daily for three years with Goku as a SSJ. Besides, I seem to remember that the 50x thing got retconned and it was something like 10x (interview?)

There was no indication Namekians yielded more results from training than Saiyans and there certainly wasnt a precedent set for it prior to this. The 50x is official and makes sense within the series gicen Kaioken is 20x so SSJ being 10x would make no sense. If the double standard didnt exist between DBS amd DBZ then this would be considered an asspull

[Michsi]

I know what you're implying but I think most people still would consider that an asspull if they thought seriously about it.

Don't these things apply to powers that happen over night with no real reason? Back then namekians were considered formidable as far as power went (average namekian fighter was stronger than average saiyan) and he had been training daily for three years with Goku as a SSJ. Besides, I seem to remember that the 50x thing got retconned and it was something like 10x (interview?)

There was no indication Namekians yielded more results from training than Saiyans and there certainly wasnt a precedent set for it prior to this. The 50x is official and makes sense within the series gicen Kaioken is 20x so SSJ being 10x would make no sense. If the double standard didnt exist between DBS amd DBZ then this would be considered an asspull

Is it though? If I cared enough about power-levels I'd would've probably remembered exactly where I read it, but I just seem to recall Toriyama thinking it's too much. I don't think we get the 50x in the actual manga. Might be wrong, though.

Anyway, with that logic, there is no indication that namekians don't receive more results with proper training etc etc. All I am saying is that the average namekian fighter was stronger than the average saiyan warrior, so Piccolo getting great results from years of training with a super saiyan isn't the same as , I don't know, Gohan getting to blue level in a day or so (don't know if that's accurate, only care about power levels in the broadest terms for consistency ) Basically, in this particular case, the story gave us a proper and compelling reason for why Piccolo's power was suddenly in the super saiyan ball park. The general rule is that everyone is as strong as the story needs them to be, but it's preferable that they try and give us a bit of justification for it, and we pretty much get it here.

[Lionel]

Seriously? I don't think Piccolo's gains were any more asinine than Vegeta prancing about in the woods for almost two years growing however much stronger before Goku returned to Earth or Goku himself somehow growing powerful enough to obliterate Cell and challenge Kid Buu in his mental image fights using only SSJ despite having just hayseed variety solo sessions in between his farm duties to rely on. At least Piccolo can be better rationalised thanks to having a Super Saiyan to train with.

On the question -- I think Piccolo was in the same league as the Super Saiyans at the time. He wasn't as strong as them but in relation to the Freeza arc's arrangement, he had managed to close the gap a good bit. Sad Toriyama didn't allow the momentum to keep up since Piccolo was the only non Saiyan who was still competitive by that point.

[PFM18]

Don't these things apply to powers that happen over night with no real reason? Back then namekians were considered formidable as far as power went (average namekian fighter was stronger than average saiyan) and he had been training daily for three years with Goku as a SSJ. Besides, I seem to remember that the 50x thing got retconned and it was something like 10x (interview?)

There was no indication Namekians yielded more results from training than Saiyans and there certainly wasnt a precedent set for it prior to this. The 50x is official and makes sense within the series gicen Kaioken is 20x so SSJ being 10x would make no sense. If the double standard didnt exist between DBS amd DBZ then this would be considered an asspull

Is it though? If I cared enough about power-levels I'd would've probably remembered exactly where I read it, but I just seem to recall Toriyama thinking it's too much. I don't think we get the 50x in the actual manga. Might be wrong, though.

Anyway, with that logic, there is no indication that namekians don't receive more results with proper training etc etc. All I am saying is that the average namekian fighter was stronger than the average saiyan warrior, so Piccolo getting great results from years of training with a super saiyan isn't the same as , I don't know, Gohan getting to blue level in a day or so (don't know if that's accurate, only care about power levels in the broadest terms for consistency ) Basically, in this particular case, the story gave us a proper and compelling reason for why Piccolo's power was suddenly in the super saiyan ball park. The general rule is that everyone is as strong as the story needs them to be, but it's preferable that they try and give us a bit of justification for it, and we pretty much get it here.

Toriyama did say at one point that he thought of it as more of a 10x boost a long time ago, but he worked in writing the SEG that states that it has a 50x multiplier. Now Again, it would make no sense for it to be 10x stronger because that would make Goku weaker than Kaioken x20 when he is in SSJ, Which is insane.

I am not even sure that this statement about the average Namekian being stronger is even true. If it is, then it is a marginal difference. Now, the problem is that there is indication that Namekians don't receive more results from training. Because Piccolo only received a boost that large this one time. Piccolo trained for the Saiyans in the year prior to Nappa/Vegeta showing up and received a 5x boost. When he trained in the ROSAT he certainly didn't receive a boost that is 100x+ or the seven years he was training prior to Buu showing up. Literally never once did he even close to that kind of boost.

Basically, in this particular case, the story gave us a proper and compelling reason for why Piccolo's power was suddenly in the super saiyan ball park.

I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to by this. We received absolutely no reason, let alone a compelling reason, why he gained this massive boost during this time. Why did he? Because the Saiyans had just received a 50x boost and Piccolo needed to keep up. Purely plot driven. No In-Universe reason at all. It sounds like you are saying the "compelling reason" is that Piccolo is a Namekian? But there was never any comments made about this being a significant difference and if it did it would have showed up in any other portion of the series.

Seriously? I don't think Piccolo's gains were any more asinine than Vegeta prancing about in the woods for almost two years growing however much stronger before Goku returned to Earth or Goku himself somehow growing powerful enough to obliterate Cell and challenge Kid Buu in his mental image fights using only SSJ despite having just hayseed variety solo sessions in between his farm duties to rely on. At least Piccolo can be better rationalised thanks to having a Super Saiyan to train with.

On the question -- I think Piccolo was in the same league as the Super Saiyans at the time. He wasn't as strong as them but in relation to the Freeza arc's arrangement, he had managed to close the gap a good bit. Sad Toriyama didn't allow the momentum to keep up since Piccolo was the only non Saiyan who was still competitive by that point.

Vegeta didn't receive anything close to an asinine boost. He literally probably gained like a 3-4x boost because his base was already around a million. The only reason Vegeta gained a large boost is because Vegeta gained the SSJ transformation that yields a 50x multiplier, and there isn't any in-universe reason why Piccolo should be able to close that 50x gap during that time. He just gains a larger boost because he has to for plot reasons.

And I have no idea why you would take image training seriously. They are just images why would he have to be as strong as them for it to work?

The thing is, if this happened DBS people would be shouting about how much of an asspull it is.

[Michsi]

I am not even sure that this statement about the average Namekian being stronger is even true. If it is, then it is a marginal difference. Now, the problem is that there is indication that Namekians don't receive more results from training. Because Piccolo only received a boost that large this one time.

Because he never again has a training situation like that, one where he has a training partner that strong for that amount of time. Only that time, that's why it's that one time. He almost always trains alone.
Remember, almost two years go by between Freeza's defeat on Namek and Future Trunks' first arrival, and Goku considers Piccolo, along side Vegeta, as someone who might've killed Freeza. Not saying he could've killed Freeza, but in those two years he must've trained hard enough to make one hell of a difference. And then come three years training with the warrior that had the strongest form of all time. Three whole years. He never has these circumstances again. So we have something like five freaking years of serious, intense training, and back then, Piccolo's potential as a fighter and status as a character was pretty much on par with Vegeta, so him having the same growth rate makes sense. It's only after he fuses with Kami, and Toriyama loses any incentive to have him fight that he drops from that tier.

As for the average saiyan warrior vs. average namekian fighter- Radditz is generally what everone considers to be the average saiyan warrior, and the random namekians that Freeza &co. kill at the start were stronger than him iIrc. I have only vague memories of PL in that arc, but I think this was how it went.

[Kamiccolo9]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

[Michsi]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

Naw, that was the 6 months he spends training on his own before he starts with Gohan. I believe he says as much. I don't remember the numbers, but yeah, while the story still treated him like a big shot, he had an impressive growth rate, even without the fusion.

[PFM18]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

He got about 5x stronger in a year actually. And he was doing image training which is typical for him and that is how he usually gains power.

As for the "average saiyan vs average Namekian" the average Namekian warrior was at 3,000 and I guess if Radditz is considered an average saiyan it would make Namekains slightly stronger. But this didnt show to be significant anywhere in the series because Saiyans always got atleast as large of a boost in their power as Piccolo

There is no In-Universe reason why Piccolo would be able to close the gap of the Saiyans gaining a 50x power boost. He got astronomically stronger for absolutely no particular reason. Again, if this was in DBS people would be screaming "asspull" but instead the double standard that exists excuses things like this.

[Kamiccolo9]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

He got about 5x stronger in a year actually. And he was doing image training which is typical for him and that is how he usually gains power.

As for the "average saiyan vs average Namekian" the average Namekian warrior was at 3,000 and I guess if Radditz is considered an average saiyan it would make Namekains slightly stronger. But this didnt show to be significant anywhere in the series because Saiyans always got atleast as large of a boost in their power as Piccolo

There is no In-Universe reason why Piccolo would be able to close the gap of the Saiyans gaining a 50x power boost. He got astronomically stronger for absolutely no particular reason. Again, if this was in DBS people would be screaming "asspull" but instead the double standard that exists excuses things like this.

Piccolo's battle power against Raditz was some 330ish. Against Nappa, he was at 3,500. That's not 5 times.

As for Super, I'm perfectly fine with the power boosts that everyone gets so.... shrugs

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

Naw, that was the 6 months he spends training on his own before he starts with Gohan. I believe he says as much. I don't remember the numbers, but yeah, while the story still treated him like a big shot, he had an impressive growth rate, even without the fusion.

What I'm saying is, if he can progress that much, essentially on his own, then there is precedent for his gains in the Android Arc. I mean, being real, power has always depended on plot, anyway. Need to power up your guys to fight Cell? Good thing there's a convenient ideal place to get a year's worth of training in a day that's been here the whole time that we've never mentioned. Need to power up Goku to fight Piccolo? Oh, well, that's easy. Just drink this water. No, not the same water as last time. This is SUPER water. Need to power up Goku to fight Freeza? Have his body beaten all to hell, then give him a near-death powerup that dwarfs that gained by any other Saiyan in the series, because, well, we need someone who can fight Freeza after we've bloated his power by giving him a ton of pointless transformations. Oh, and do that with Cell, too. Just because.

[PFM18]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

He got about 5x stronger in a year actually. And he was doing image training which is typical for him and that is how he usually gains power.

As for the "average saiyan vs average Namekian" the average Namekian warrior was at 3,000 and I guess if Radditz is considered an average saiyan it would make Namekains slightly stronger. But this didnt show to be significant anywhere in the series because Saiyans always got atleast as large of a boost in their power as Piccolo

There is no In-Universe reason why Piccolo would be able to close the gap of the Saiyans gaining a 50x power boost. He got astronomically stronger for absolutely no particular reason. Again, if this was in DBS people would be screaming "asspull" but instead the double standard that exists excuses things like this.

Piccolo's battle power against Raditz was some 330ish. Against Nappa, he was at 3,500. That's not 5 times.

As for Super, I'm perfectly fine with the power boosts that everyone gets so.... shrugs

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

Naw, that was the 6 months he spends training on his own before he starts with Gohan. I believe he says as much. I don't remember the numbers, but yeah, while the story still treated him like a big shot, he had an impressive growth rate, even without the fusion.

What I'm saying is, if he can progress that much, essentially on his own, then there is precedent for his gains in the Android Arc. I mean, being real, power has always depended on plot, anyway. Need to power up your guys to fight Cell? Good thing there's a convenient ideal place to get a year's worth of training in a day that's been here the whole time that we've never mentioned. Need to power up Goku to fight Piccolo? Oh, well, that's easy. Just drink this water. No, not the same water as last time. This is SUPER water. Need to power up Goku to fight Freeza? Have his body beaten all to hell, then give him a near-death powerup that dwarfs that gained by any other Saiyan in the series, because, well, we need someone who can fight Freeza after we've bloated his power by giving him a ton of pointless transformations. Oh, and do that with Cell, too. Just because.

Piccolo went from about 400 to about 2000 so yeah it was around a 5x boost in a year.

Yes there are plenty of plot devices that allow for characters to increase their power very quickly. The ROSAT is a good example of this but atleast it makes sense from an IN-Universe perspective that they could get so strong from it, even if it is strange that the previous 250 episodes between DB and DBZ that they never mentioned it once. Piccolo being able to catch up with the Saiyans makes no sense from an In-Universe perspective. Again, if it was in Super it would be ridiculed.

Although, I suppose I am kind of preaching to the choir if you are somebody that sees no problem with the power ups in Super.

[Michsi]

Piccolo also got 10 times stronger by kicking around a 4 year-old in the mountains for 6 months, so there's that.

Naw, that was the 6 months he spends training on his own before he starts with Gohan. I believe he says as much. I don't remember the numbers, but yeah, while the story still treated him like a big shot, he had an impressive growth rate, even without the fusion.

What I'm saying is, if he can progress that much, essentially on his own, then there is precedent for his gains in the Android Arc. I mean, being real, power has always depended on plot, anyway. Need to power up your guys to fight Cell? Good thing there's a convenient ideal place to get a year's worth of training in a day that's been here the whole time that we've never mentioned. Need to power up Goku to fight Piccolo? Oh, well, that's easy. Just drink this water. No, not the same water as last time. This is SUPER water. Need to power up Goku to fight Freeza? Have his body beaten all to hell, then give him a near-death powerup that dwarfs that gained by any other Saiyan in the series, because, well, we need someone who can fight Freeza after we've bloated his power by giving him a ton of pointless transformations. Oh, and do that with Cell, too. Just because.

Agreed.

But some power-ups are just a tad more bit more credible (couldn't come up with a better term) based on how much effort the story puts into getting to that power-up. We have stuff like training like madmen for several years and transformations, then we have old man with his magic dance and super water - I mean, all of them are plausible for DB, just some are easier to swallow than others.

Tbh, Piccolo could accidentally trip into a pool of ultra, mega, super water and get his power-up from there, and I'd just laugh, shrug, and accept it.

[Zephyr]

Disclaimer: Asspull is a lazy, dumb, nonsense word.

Piccolo being able to catch up with the Saiyans makes no sense from an In-Universe perspective.

I think it makes plenty of sense. There are three layers to it:

Obviously, out of universe, behind the scenes, on a writing and production level, there is no set formula for how much precisely X character is supposed to grow from Y strength increasing method. There is no bible. There is no rulebook. Characters grow just as much as they need to, from whatever given training regimen or free power boost, for the story to be told the way the storyteller wants to tell it. Toriyama wants the protagonist and antagonist to be relatively evenly matched so the fight isn't quick or one-sided? Then the underdog is going to catch up, regardless of what his method is. This happens with both Piccolo fights, the Freeza fight, Piccolo vs. #17, #16 vs. Cell, Cell after coming back from self-destructing, Gotenks vs. Buu, and probably several others I'm forgetting. The amount of strength gained is determined by the kind of fight that he wants to show, not the other way around.

Naturally, one could reasonably argue that in-universe there must be some rule, somewhere, underneath the hood. And I'm willing to concede that. However, whatever it is, it isn't something that is known. If there are indeed in-universe rules for growth rates, we don't know what they are. Therefore, we can't know when they're being violated. One thing we do know, in-universe, is that having a stronger sparring partner probably results in more gains, which is precisely why Goku wanted to help Gohan transform into a Super Saiyan: so he'd be a better sparring partner. And Piccolo, during the three year gap, had the strongest sparring partners he's ever had up to that point. His training during that period of time does not have all of the same identical variables that his past instances of training did. Ergo, different results are to be reasonably expected.

The only things we know are being violated are fan-created rates of growth. These are speculative in nature, and shouldn't be regarded as sacred. This is the only thing being violated by Piccolo catching up to the Saiyans, and I don't see how that is cause for alarm. And, yes, almost all of the "power scaling" complaints in Super pretty fall into this same trap, I think. Almost.