Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

[Kaboom]

At what point should we just admit that however akward the storytelling was in Buu saga, that in the end, the intent, whether designed from the beginning or not, was to make Kid Buu much stronger than all the good guys?

When Toriyama actually says that's the case, thereby voiding and overriding what he actually wrote in his own work.

[MisterGuyMan]

Genki and ki are used interchangeably with regard to the Genki Dama multiple times throughout the franchise, and not just in regards to the Genki Dama used by Goku to defeat Buu. So them referring to it as "ki" here and there during that portion of the Buu arc by no means indicates that they're using anything outside of genki still. Therefore, they're still only drawing upon the limits of everyone's genki, not the limits of their total ki at all. The difference between the regular Genki Dama and the one used to defeat Buu (why would it not have a different name then if it draws on more than genki anyway?) is just that it's not bits of genki passively donated, but an active donation of all genki they can spare.

As for your evidence from Super, there's a fair amount of issues with it. One, Vegeta says that Goku is obviously now number one because he defeated Buu, ignoring the very obvious fact that Goku's own strength wasn't a real factor in defeating Buu at all. Two, he sees himself as #2, when he was in no way #2 during the Buu arc whatsoever. Unless he's intentionally excluding Gohan and Gotenks (and he very well might be, since they're not full-blooded Saiyans), there's no way he can be #2 among the four of them.

Additionally, the Dende reference you posted from the manga is pointless, since it can be easily interpreted (especially given that it's interpreted this way many times over in the manga, anime, and guidebooks) as referring to Buu as a whole, and not the specific form of Buu. So, Dende's comment is simply that Buu, in general, was the strongest enemy that Goku had ever faced, not that Pure Buu specifically was the strongest.

We also know though that the Genki Dama is an OP attack. Daizenshuu labels the Super Genki Dama as the maximum amount of power. So there's no question that the Genki Dama exceeds anything Gohan can throw out by himself. This means Kid Buu can deflect anything weaker than the Genki Dama and Gohan, even if he exhausts himself in making the biggest attack he can, will just make a Ki Blast that cannot beat Kid Buu. I also cite DBS which shows us how OP the Genki Dama is. Saying that Ki and Genki are interchangeable only helps my argument. What isn't deniable though is that Ki and Power has always been interchangeable throughout the series. When some one says "His Ki isn't enough to beat this guy" we all know what that means. He's not strong enough. Perhaps you missed this scan. In Daizenshuu it has one entry for the Genki Dama. It says it gathers Genki as you would expect. It has a sub entry for the Super Genki Dama specifically. It explains that it gathers ki:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So Daizenshuu explains that a normal Genki Dama just takes little bits of energy. The Super Genki Dama is unique in that it also asks people to donate Ki.

Goku's actual method of beating Kid Buu isn't even relevant though. Kid Buu was the strongest. So when Kid Buu is defeated, the second strongest guy is now the strongest. This holds true regardless of if Goku used a Genki Dama or Kid Buu magically disappears for no reason. The next strongest guy then becomes the strongest. Vegeta also outperformed Gohan against Beerus even before the Bulma slap.

If you read Dende's statement he's specific. He said "Maijin Buu, the most formidable opponent you've ever faced, had his soul cleansed and reborn as human.... His Name is Uub. Please remember that. So Goku faced him, his soul was cleased and he was reborn as Uub. That's Kid Buu and Kid Buu alone. Super Buu ceased to exist and Fat Buu is still hanging out with Satan. Only Kid Buu turned into Uub. So while it's arguable if Goku ever faced Buutenks or Buuhan, Goku did face Super Buu briefly.

At what point should we just admit that however akward the storytelling was in Buu saga, that in the end, the intent, whether designed from the beginning or not, was to make Kid Buu much stronger than all the good guys?

When Toriyama actually says that's the case, thereby voiding and overriding what he actually wrote in his own work.

I cited Daizenshuu which he allowed to be listed under his name as author. I cited both versions of DBS which Toriyama recognizes as continuations of his story. I even cited the original manga. Goku was underpowered when he refused to fight Super Buu. Later on Toriyama wrote that Goku believed his full power could beat Kid Buu. Then a minute later, Goku said Gohan's Ki could not. That's the same source, Goku, and it's also a more recent statement.

[Darkprince410]

We also know though that the Genki Dama is an OP attack. Daizenshuu labels the Super Genki Dama as the maximum amount of power. So there's no question that the Genki Dama exceeds anything Gohan can throw out by himself. This means Kid Buu can deflect anything weaker than the Genki Dama and Gohan, even if he exhausts himself in making the biggest attack he can, will just make a Ki Blast that cannot beat Kid Buu. I also cite DBS which shows us how OP the Genki Dama is. Saying that Ki and Genki are interchangeable only helps my argument. What isn't deniable though is that Ki and Power has always been interchangeable throughout the series. When some one says "His Ki isn't enough to beat this guy" we all know what that means. He's not strong enough. Perhaps you missed this scan. In Daizenshuu it has one entry for the Genki Dama. It says it gathers Genki as you would expect. It has a sub entry for the Super Genki Dama specifically. It explains that it gathers ki:

Except that saying that genki and ki are interchangeable doesn't help your argument at all. If ki has been used before to describe the Genki Dama before the Buu arc (when we can undeniably agree it only drew on an individual's genki, then why would it suddenly need to be different for the Super Genki Dama? Given everything shown, it's far simpler to see it as them meaning genki when they mention ki during those final scenes, and thus Gohan is donating the extent of his genki, which just happened to not be enough to defeat Buu. It fits the narrative perfectly, given that all information from the manga supports Gohan and Evil Buu being stronger than Pure Buu.

If you read Dende's statement he's specific. He said "Maijin Buu, the most formidable opponent you've ever faced, had his soul cleansed and reborn as human.... His Name is Uub. Please remember that. So Goku faced him, his soul was cleased and he was reborn as Uub. That's Kid Buu and Kid Buu alone. Super Buu ceased to exist and Fat Buu is still hanging out with Satan. Only Kid Buu turned into Uub. So while it's arguable if Goku ever faced Buutenks or Buuhan, Goku did face Super Buu briefly.

Outside of Mr. Buu, they're all the same Buu. From the moment the Pure Evil Buu formed following Fat Buu expelling him, that is the same Buu we see throughout the remainder of the arc. Various forms, yes, but he's still the exact same Buu, so Dende's comment isn't specifically about Pure Buu at all. Just that Majin Buu, as a whole, was the strongest enemy that was faced, and he was eventually reincarnated.

[Desassina]

Just because the Genki-dama has Ki, doesn't mean that it didn't convert Genki into it, and took the former directly from people. Most techniques in Dragon Ball increase their power by depleting the characters' energy. Power does not decrease power, except when it's somebody else's affecting one of our components, such as courage by getting intimidated or right mindedness by losing our minds. Tenshinhan is specially known for this: he's an energy tank, so much that his Shin Kikoho can surpass his own power, by merely taking from his energy to the point of suicide. So, if he has so much energy, why isn't he more powerful? He's not pure, has suicidal ideas, and questioned his own values. Right mindedness is not his strong suit, so it multiplies the other components by less, to the point of his power being lower than a Shin Kikoho's.

Power (Ki) = Courage (Yuuki) * Right Mindedness (Shouki) * Energy (Genki) * Other types

I encourage multiplication, because when the energy depletes into 0, the character dies and has no power, or when courage drops below 1, for example, the overall power is lower, but a technique made of only energy can surpass it. Techniques do not throw the latter at the enemy though. The planet is made of energy, and yet it doesn't hurt people when they touch it, so it has to be converted.

[MisterGuyMan]

Except that saying that genki and ki are interchangeable doesn't help your argument at all. If ki has been used before to describe the Genki Dama before the Buu arc (when we can undeniably agree it only drew on an individual's genki, then why would it suddenly need to be different for the Super Genki Dama? Given everything shown, it's far simpler to see it as them meaning genki when they mention ki during those final scenes, and thus Gohan is donating the extent of his genki, which just happened to not be enough to defeat Buu. It fits the narrative perfectly, given that all information from the manga supports Gohan and Evil Buu being stronger than Pure Buu.

You're ignoring though how in this case, the difference between a normal and Super Genki Dama has been explicitly explained. The Super Genki Dama can "gather ki from them right up to their limits" which makes it more powerful than a normal one that only "gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings." Those are direct quotes. I also provided the Daizenshuu entry. So regardless of what the previous Genki Dama did or how they were referenced, the Ki and Genki dynamic is explained here clearly.

Secondly, Ki and Power are used synonomously throughout the series. So does the manga also equate donating "Ki up to their limit" to also giving it your power?
[spoiler]Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”[/spoiler]
Dende says he gave his Ki. Emma, who did the same thing, says he gave his power. Vegeta, when asking the Earthlings, says they'll gather their power. So in this instance, not only is Ki specifically established as the unique thing they're gathering for the Super Genki Dama, they're also using Ki and Power interchangeably just like how Ki and Power have been interchangeable throughout the series.

I also disagree that your way makes more sense. Old Kaio and King Kai would have no problem mentioning that they should just teleport Gohan in if he could have soloed Kid Buu. The entire last fight makes no sense and has no urgency if at any time, Gohan can get teleported in for a free win. Ever since Kid Buu appears, the official narrative between the manga guide and both sequel series has reinforced the Kid Buu and Goku narrative. Heck, the second episode of DBS dedicates two seperate scenes to outline how Goku is the strongest after Kid Buu. The DBS manga, literally on the first page, reiterates that no one would have stopped Kid Buu, which would include Gohan, if the Genki Dama failed.

Outside of Mr. Buu, they're all the same Buu. From the moment the Pure Evil Buu formed following Fat Buu expelling him, that is the same Buu we see throughout the remainder of the arc. Various forms, yes, but he's still the exact same Buu, so Dende's comment isn't specifically about Pure Buu at all. Just that Majin Buu, as a whole, was the strongest enemy that was faced, and he was eventually reincarnated.

That's not true. Kid Buu turned into Buff Buu turned into Fat Buu. Fat Buu depowered and got absorbed by the skinny Evil Buu. Evil Buu turned into Super. Then, when the absorptions got removed, Super Buu explicitly says he would cease to exist. So the line from Kid Buu to Super Buu ends clearly when Fat Buu is absorbed since Fat Buu is the entity that Kid Buu turned into. Super Buu is some outgrowth. Super Buu then says he ceased to exist so there's no doubt. Kid Buu is the only one who could have been reincarnated.

Power (Ki) = Courage (Yuuki) * Right Mindedness (Shouki) * Energy (Genki) * Other types

I encourage multiplication, because when the energy depletes into 0, the character dies and has no power, or when courage drops below 1, for example, the overall power is lower, but a technique made of only energy can surpass it. Techniques do not throw the latter at the enemy though. The planet is made of energy, and yet it doesn't hurt people when they touch it, so it has to be converted.

My take on it is simpler. Genki is the fundamental life force that is the raw power of Ki. Ki size and Ki control are both important according to Toriyama. Right Mindedness and Courage logically fall under Ki Control. Sentient beings can manipulate their energy. Genki is different. Everything has it. Genki Dama is so strong because it requires no Ki control. It's raw unfiltered energy. Normal people, even experts like Goku, need various methods that are imperfect to utilize their energy. Genki Dama just sucks that energy out in its purest form. Note how it doesn't matter how good a Ki user you are. Normal humans give their energy just as easily as trained MAs

[Desassina]

You're forgetting that Genki is of different amounts from certain beings to others and things. It was not due to Ki control that Gohan contributed with more. Otherwise, Gotenks would have showed up, since he had more than the kids' to spare. As stated by Babidi and Dabura, Saiyans have marvelous energy, back when they were suppressing their power. Marvelous energy that could revive Majin Boo, when their power level went under or was unused, so the multiplication model fits. Ki is basically spiritual force and presence in real life. They wanted their presence to go unnoticed, but their energy or liveness remained, so another type of Ki dropped below the unit. It's not "there's Genki and there's Ki": Toriyama has clearly stated the former as a component of the latter. It doesn't have to be the fans' take.

[TobyS]

All genki is ki, not all ki is genki.

When they say the ki in the genki dama isn't enough that is because it isn't. They are only talking about the amount they gave/could give.

They aren't saying “none of us have the ki to kill buu” they are saying “there might not be enough ki in the genki dama”.

They aren't discussing the ki they couldn't have given to the genki dama, because it's not relevant to the conversation.

[MisterGuyMan]

You're forgetting that Genki is of different amounts from certain beings to others and things. It was not due to Ki control that Gohan contributed with more. Otherwise, Gotenks would have showed up, since he had more than the kids' to spare. As stated by Babidi and Dabura, Saiyans have marvelous energy, back when they were suppressing their power. Marvelous energy that could revive Majin Boo, when their power level went under or was unused, so the multiplication model fits. Ki is basically spiritual force and presence in real life. They wanted their presence to go unnoticed, but their energy or liveness remained, so another type of Ki dropped below the unit. It's not "there's Genki and there's Ki": Toriyama has clearly stated the former as a component of the latter. It doesn't have to be the fans' take.

I'm saying that Genki is the purest form of Ki. Gotenks, a product of fusion, is still manipulating and combining the two kids' Ki to make something. It's impressive but still nowhere near as efficient as what the ToP Genki Dama was shown to ddo. My position is that transformations and Ki amplifiers and the like are all less efficient that the pure unfiltered Genki.

Going back to Gotenks, it's likely the kids couldn't fuse again anyway. From their perspective, they just defused then got rescued. None of the Kid Buu fight occurred from their perspective.

All genki is ki, not all ki is genki.

When they say the ki in the genki dama isn't enough that is because it isn't. They are only talking about the amount they gave/could give.

They aren't saying “none of us have the ki to kill buu” they are saying “there might not be enough ki in the genki dama”.

They aren't discussing the ki they couldn't have given to the genki dama, because it's not relevant to the conversation.

This is true but we do know that the plan called for everyone giving their Ki "up to their limit" so everyone's Ki reserves should be shot at this point.

[TobyS]

The limit being the most *genki* they could give, because again, the genki is implicitly the only ki Vegeta could be talking about.

I took that as it involuntarily takes some genki from “the earth, ocean, all living things!” it's called “a/the genki dama” not an “all the genki dama”

The Buu saga was special in that they voluntarily give *all* their genki, they aren't giving the rest of their ki because that's not what it ever does, regardless of how generous they are.

Vegeta is basically lowering the universes tax free allowance (how much genki/money that you can't normally take/tax) to raise revenues for the next financial year (genki dama) before the year ending self assessment deadline, (throwing it at Buu) but he still isn't dipping into anyone's pensions, charitable giving or other inherently tax exempt assets. (their shuki or yuki that make up the rest of their ki)

[MisterGuyMan]

The limit being the most *genki* they could give, because again, the genki is implicitly the only ki Vegeta could be talking about....

....Vegeta is basically lowering the universes tax free allowance (how much genki/money that you can't normally take/tax) to raise revenues for the next financial year (genki dama) before the year ending self assessment deadline, (throwing it at Buu) but he still isn't dipping into anyone's pensions, charitable giving or other inherently tax exempt assets. (their shuki or yuki that make up the rest of their ki)

Why can't Vegeta just mean Ki when he says Ki? I cited this earlier and Daizenshuu confirms that the difference between a normal Genki Dama and the Super Genki Dama is that the Genki Dama also gathers Ki:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
It's not gathering shuki or yuki per se but those two things needed to align as well for the Genki Dama to acquire their Ki. That's why Satan's plea was so important.

[Darkprince410]

You're ignoring though how in this case, the difference between a normal and Super Genki Dama has been explicitly explained. The Super Genki Dama can "gather ki from them right up to their limits" which makes it more powerful than a normal one that only "gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings." Those are direct quotes. I also provided the Daizenshuu entry. So regardless of what the previous Genki Dama did or how they were referenced, the Ki and Genki dynamic is explained here clearly.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying the wording is irrelevant because the precedent stands that ki and genki get used interchangeably when speaking of the Genki Dama well before the Buu arc, so assuming it is using total ki, rather than genki, just because ki is mentioned is illogical.

[spoiler]

Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…”
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Goku: “This thing’s big weakness is the time it takes to gather ki…”

[/spoiler]

If it had never been used beforehand for the earlier uses of the Genki Dama, then you may have some point there, but because it has been used elsewhere, then them mentioning it in regard to the Buu arc Genki Dama is just remaining consistent. The Super Genki Dama draws and gathers genki right up to their limits. That's consistent with what's said, and is still a considerable difference between the two (genki to their limits vs. passive genki gathering).

Secondly, Ki and Power are used synonomously throughout the series. So does the manga also equate donating "Ki up to their limit" to also giving it your power?

Considering it's solely speaking of genki here, no, it's not the entirety of their power.

Dende says he gave his Ki. Emma, who did the same thing, says he gave his power. Vegeta, when asking the Earthlings, says they'll gather their power. So in this instance, not only is Ki specifically established as the unique thing they're gathering for the Super Genki Dama, they're also using Ki and Power interchangeably just like how Ki and Power have been interchangeable throughout the series.

Again, ki and genki have been used interchangeably, so them saying ki here doesn't meant at all that they're meaning the entirety of ki. Also, are you saying that genki isn't power?

[spoiler]

Kaio: “The Genki-Dama is a technique that takes just a little bit of the various energies held by grass or trees, humans or animals, or even in objects and the atmosphere, gathers it all together and then fires it. Even the Genki-Dama of such a small planet as this one had that much destructive power. The Earth where you’ll be fighting is so large you can’t even compare it to here. And if you’re able to make the sun, with its gigantic energy, into your ally…It will be a Genki-Dama with outrageous power. If you mess up, you could destroy the planet which you’re supposed to protect.”

Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”

[/spoiler]

I also disagree that your way makes more sense. Old Kaio and King Kai would have no problem mentioning that they should just teleport Gohan in if he could have soloed Kid Buu. The entire last fight makes no sense and has no urgency if at any time, Gohan can get teleported in for a free win. Ever since Kid Buu appears, the official narrative between the manga guide and both sequel series has reinforced the Kid Buu and Goku narrative. Heck, the second episode of DBS dedicates two seperate scenes to outline how Goku is the strongest after Kid Buu. The DBS manga, literally on the first page, reiterates that no one would have stopped Kid Buu, which would include Gohan, if the Genki Dama failed.

Goku wanted to bring in Gohan as he thought that was a better idea than the Genki Dama, so if Gohan was suddenly weaker than Buu, why would he think that's a good idea? The second episode dedicates nonsensical scenes given what's said. Acknowledging someone as the strongest doesn't mean they are the strongest, and Vegeta's reasonings for why Goku should be the strongest really doesn't work. As for your manga evidence, given that it's nothing more than a brief synopsis of the entire Buu arc, that's not really valid either. It's not speaking solely of those final moments of the arc, but the entire arc in general.

That's not true. Kid Buu turned into Buff Buu turned into Fat Buu. Fat Buu depowered and got absorbed by the skinny Evil Buu. Evil Buu turned into Super. Then, when the absorptions got removed, Super Buu explicitly says he would cease to exist. So the line from Kid Buu to Super Buu ends clearly when Fat Buu is absorbed since Fat Buu is the entity that Kid Buu turned into. Super Buu is some outgrowth. Super Buu then says he ceased to exist so there's no doubt. Kid Buu is the only one who could have been reincarnated.

[/quote]

It is true. The line that produced the Pure Buu that appears at the end of the Buu arc started when the Pure Evil Buu was expelled, as he became the new base for the Buu transformations after. Pure Evil Buu, all the forms of Evil Buu, the South Kaioushin Buu we see in the Buu arc, and then Pure Buu are all the same Buu at this point. Evil Buu is clearly saying he'll cease to exist as far as his personal identity, not that he's literally becoming someone completely different. If you're familiar with Doctor Who at all, it's no different than the Doctor when he regenerates. Different appearance, different personality, etc (and he even comments it feels like that version of him "dies" when he regenerates), but it's still the same individual.

[MisterGuyMan]

I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying the wording is irrelevant because the precedent stands that ki and genki get used interchangeably when speaking of the Genki Dama well before the Buu arc, so assuming it is using total ki, rather than genki, just because ki is mentioned is illogical.

You can't use that excuse because while the original Genki Dama might have used them interchangeably, the Super Genki Dama does not. The explanation both in the manga and in Daizenshu make it clear what the role of Ki specifically is. You are going back on earlier, more vague and outdated descriptions when we have newer and more specific descriptions.

If it had never been used beforehand for the earlier uses of the Genki Dama, then you may have some point there, but because it has been used elsewhere, then them mentioning it in regard to the Buu arc Genki Dama is just remaining consistent. The Super Genki Dama draws and gathers genki right up to their limits. That's consistent with what's said, and is still a considerable difference between the two (genki to their limits vs. passive genki gathering).

Again why use earlier conventions that don't differentiate when the Super Genki Dama takes the time to explain what those differences are? OK so the old Genki Dama uses terms that way? The Super Genki Dama doesn't.

Considering it's solely speaking of genki here, no, it's not the entirety of their power.

It's not solely talking about Genki. The official description both in the manga and Daizenshu make it clear that it's also gathering Ki.

Again, ki and genki have been used interchangeably, so them saying ki here doesn't meant at all that they're meaning the entirety of ki. Also, are you saying that genki isn't power?

You say they're used interchangeably. I keep mentioning that the manga Nad Daizenshuu explain what the differences are with the Genki Dama. When you respond please stop evading the issue of how when the Super Genki Dama is explained, it specifically points out that it's different from a normal Genki Dama because it gathers Ki too. Identifying and highlight a difference of how Ki is gathered on top of Genki is the opposite of saying Ki is used interchangeably with Genki.

Goku wanted to bring in Gohan as he thought that was a better idea than the Genki Dama, so if Gohan was suddenly weaker than Buu, why would he think that's a good idea? The second episode dedicates nonsensical scenes given what's said. Acknowledging someone as the strongest doesn't mean they are the strongest, and Vegeta's reasonings for why Goku should be the strongest really doesn't work. As for your manga evidence, given that it's nothing more than a brief synopsis of the entire Buu arc, that's not really valid either. It's not speaking solely of those final moments of the arc, but the entire arc in general.

Goku never said Gohan and Gotenks would beat Kid Buu though. He also technically was just trying to guess what Vegeta's plan one. No one said it was a good idea. Compare that to how King Kai gave Vegeta props for thinking about the Genki Dama. He could have easily just pointed out that Gohan was a better option.

Your interpretation of the manga is just your opinion. I hate to be blunt but if you read the DBS manga, watch the DBS episode 2 scenes about Kid Buu and Goku, and read the various excerpts from Daizenshuu, they're all outlining the same picture. Goku and Kid Buu were supposed to be the strongest in the end. They're also just repeating two scenes from the manga. One scene where Vegeta says Goku and Kid Buu are on another level and another where Goku says nothing but the Genki Dama would have stopped Kid Buu. So instead of finding ways to dismiss the new material, it makes more sense to just line them up with the parts of the original manga that say the same thing and accept them for how they reinforce those parts of the original manga.

It is true. The line that produced the Pure Buu that appears at the end of the Buu arc started when the Pure Evil Buu was expelled, as he became the new base for the Buu transformations after. Pure Evil Buu, all the forms of Evil Buu, the South Kaioushin Buu we see in the Buu arc, and then Pure Buu are all the same Buu at this point. Evil Buu is clearly saying he'll cease to exist as far as his personal identity, not that he's literally becoming someone completely different. If you're familiar with Doctor Who at all, it's no different than the Doctor when he regenerates. Different appearance, different personality, etc (and he even comments it feels like that version of him "dies" when he regenerates), but it's still the same individual.

I get what you're saying but I simply don't agree and honestly neither does any of the evidence. If Super Buu says he ceased to exist then he doesn't exist. Kid Buu is stated to be the original so he predates Super Buu. His line doesn't start with Evil Buu since Kid Buu was the first. Evil Buu simply cannot be the base for the original Buu. That's backwards. The official narrative is that Super Buu ceased to exist so Kid Buu, the original, came back.

To bring this back to the original point, Goku, when he asks for Buu to come back, is talking to Kid Buu. It's a face to face conversation between two parties. Super Buu is not a part of this at all.

[ZeroNeonix]

Vegeta's plan was clearly not made out of practicality. He cpuld have just wished for Goku to be at full power from the start if he wanted a simple and easy solution, and Goku obviously thought that bringing Gohan into the fight was a good idea. Vegeta's plan of using a really big Spirit Bomb was unorthodox and risky. He chose that plan for its symbolic value, letting the Earthlings "save themselves" and earn his respect.

As for Vegeta acknowledging Goku as "the best," Goku was his rival, not Gohan. Vegeta was simply acknowledging that his rival was better than him. Reading any more than that into it is just grasping at straws.

Also, ki does not equal power. Goku doesn't get more ki when he transforms. He sacrifices ki for power. Super Vegeta allowed Android 19 to nearly suck him dry of energy, but Android 19 was still no match for Vegeta. Just because the Spirit Bomb used Gohan's energy doesn't mean the Spirit Bomb had Gohan's level of strength.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying the wording is irrelevant because the precedent stands that ki and genki get used interchangeably when speaking of the Genki Dama well before the Buu arc, so assuming it is using total ki, rather than genki, just because ki is mentioned is illogical.

You can't use that excuse because while the original Genki Dama might have used them interchangeably, the Super Genki Dama does not. The explanation both in the manga and in Daizenshu make it clear what the role of Ki specifically is. You are going back on earlier, more vague and outdated descriptions when we have newer and more specific descriptions.

This goes to your other statements as well, but your argument is invalid. Yes, we are given the clear cut explanation as to what the Super Genki Dama is in comparison to the regular; that it's active donation rather than passive collection. That's it. There is nothing said in the manga or the Daizenshuu that supports that Vegeta and the others' use of the word "ki" when describing the Super Genki Dama is in any way different from when it was used to describe the regular Genki Dama, that it, in the context of the Genki Dama in general, is interchangeable with genki.

Vegeta's line to Goku even supports that he's talking about genki rather than the entirety of ki.

Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

His statement is in reference to what Goku said. Goku mentions specifically "little bits of genki", and then Vegeta responds that it won't be just little bits, but rather their limits. The context of what he says moreso supports he is talking about the limits of their genki, as he's referring to just how much is going to be collected. If he were talking about gathering actual ki vs. just genki, why not say something like "You're not going to be just gathering genki"? The reference to quantity supports his later "ki" comment is still referring to genki.

Also, why would it still be called a Super Genki Dama in the Daizenshuu if it doesn't just involve genki? Shueisha's staff has changed the names for attacks/forms before to denote a difference from what the original material suggested (Giji Super Saiyan, for example, when movie 4 only referred to it as Super Saiyan). If it involved more than just genki, why didn't they name it the Ki Dama or something along those lines? Their desire to keep it as "Genki Dama", and just slapping a Super in front indicates that it is still made up of just genki.

Goku never said Gohan and Gotenks would beat Kid Buu though. He also technically was just trying to guess what Vegeta's plan one. No one said it was a good idea. Compare that to how King Kai gave Vegeta props for thinking about the Genki Dama. He could have easily just pointed out that Gohan was a better option.

Your interpretation of the manga is just your opinion. I hate to be blunt but if you read the DBS manga, watch the DBS episode 2 scenes about Kid Buu and Goku, and read the various excerpts from Daizenshuu, they're all outlining the same picture. Goku and Kid Buu were supposed to be the strongest in the end. They're also just repeating two scenes from the manga. One scene where Vegeta says Goku and Kid Buu are on another level and another where Goku says nothing but the Genki Dama would have stopped Kid Buu. So instead of finding ways to dismiss the new material, it makes more sense to just line them up with the parts of the original manga that say the same thing and accept them for how they reinforce those parts of the original manga.

Goku came up with Gohan and Gotenks first, which means that he still thought they'd at least be able to do something (and given that Goku had earlier established that Gohan was far stronger than he was, that's not an unreasonable assumption), and then later berated Vegeta for considering the Genki Dama instead. Likewise, Kaiou's line was more him just being elated that Vegeta would suggest his technique as a means of defeating Buu, and not an indication of it being their only way of beating him. The DBS manga doesn't support Pure Buu being the strongest, the DBS anime (as I said before) is vague and inaccurate as far as the reasoning Vegeta would make such statements, and the Daizenshuu itself isn't the most valid in this case because it draws its information from both the manga and anime, thus a statement saying that Pure Buu is the strongest would be skewed by it being flat out said he's the strongest in filler.

What about Dragon Ball Forever expressly stating that Buu got weaker when absorptions were removed, and even specifically showed Vegeta removing Mr. Buu's cocoon as an illustration of that point? A databook devoted to the manga using the formation of Pure Buu as evidence of Buu getting weaker when absorptions are removed. Given everything else that's shown, it fits the narrative perfectly. With Goku, despite being weaker than Gotenks and Gohan, being the only one around, what better means of having one last 1vs1 battle than to make the last Buu that appears weak enough that they fought evenly.

I get what you're saying but I simply don't agree and honestly neither does any of the evidence. If Super Buu says he ceased to exist then he doesn't exist. Kid Buu is stated to be the original so he predates Super Buu. His line doesn't start with Evil Buu since Kid Buu was the first. Evil Buu simply cannot be the base for the original Buu. That's backwards. The official narrative is that Super Buu ceased to exist so Kid Buu, the original, came back.

To bring this back to the original point, Goku, when he asks for Buu to come back, is talking to Kid Buu. It's a face to face conversation between two parties. Super Buu is not a part of this at all.

It has to be though. The true, original Pure Buu became Fat Buu after absorbing the South Kaioushin and later the Dai Kaioushin. Nothing about Fat Buu changes until he purges the evil within him, becoming Mr. Buu in the process. That evil, in turn, becomes the Pure Evil Buu, and from that point on he is the new base. He absorbs Mr. Buu, then Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan, but loses them all later, resulting in the formation of Pure Buu. It's all one straight line of gaining and losing the same absorptions, so the Pure Evil Buu needs to be the new base. Evil Buu's comment about ceasing to be is logically just meaning that version of him will cease. It's still the exact same Buu that is existing, but it's just a different personality.

Thus, while Goku specifically wanted Buu to be reincarnated as a result of his fight with Pure Buu, it doesn't change that it's still the same Buu as Evil Buu, Gotenks Buu, etc, and therefore Dende's line is just speaking of Buu in general, not Pure Buu specifically.

[MisterGuyMan]

Vegeta's plan was clearly not made out of practicality. He cpuld have just wished for Goku to be at full power from the start if he wanted a simple and easy solution, and Goku obviously thought that bringing Gohan into the fight was a good idea. Vegeta's plan of using a really big Spirit Bomb was unorthodox and risky. He chose that plan for its symbolic value, letting the Earthlings "save themselves" and earn his respect.

As for Vegeta acknowledging Goku as "the best," Goku was his rival, not Gohan. Vegeta was simply acknowledging that his rival was better than him. Reading any more than that into it is just grasping at straws.

Goku already lost though. Trying again would have led to a similar loss. Goku was next strongest but he's still under Kid Buu and without the infinite stamina of a Buu. It still makes no sense how King Kai, Shin, Old Kaio or even Goku himself never just point out Gohan can insta-win if that's true. This contradicts how the fight is framed, multiple times in multiple sources, as a fight for the universe especially if even if they lose, Gohan will still win guaranteed. That's simply not how the fight is described as.

Also, ki does not equal power. Goku doesn't get more ki when he transforms. He sacrifices ki for power. Super Vegeta allowed Android 19 to nearly suck him dry of energy, but Android 19 was still no match for Vegeta. Just because the Spirit Bomb used Gohan's energy doesn't mean the Spirit Bomb had Gohan's level of strength.

In this instance with the Genki Dama, it does. We see in the ToP how donating to a Genki Dama is more than the sum of its parts.

This goes to your other statements as well, but your argument is invalid. Yes, we are given the clear cut explanation as to what the Super Genki Dama is in comparison to the regular; that it's active donation rather than passive collection. That's it. There is nothing said in the manga or the Daizenshuu that supports that Vegeta and the others' use of the word "ki" when describing the Super Genki Dama is in any way different from when it was used to describe the regular Genki Dama, that it, in the context of the Genki Dama in general, is interchangeable with genki.

Vegeta's line to Goku even supports that he's talking about genki rather than the entirety of ki.

First we have Vegeta saying they'll gather Ki up to their limits. He uses the term Ki not me. Then we have Daizenshuu which says the Super Genki Dama is different because it's "made by asking everyone to donate Ki." Here:
[spoiler]https://imgur.com/F23L3Tq[/spoiler]
The normal Genki Dama, in the same entry, just takes energy, which is what Genki translates to.

His statement is in reference to what Goku said. Goku mentions specifically "little bits of genki", and then Vegeta responds that it won't be just little bits, but rather their limits. The context of what he says moreso supports he is talking about the limits of their genki, as he's referring to just how much is going to be collected. If he were talking about gathering actual ki vs. just genki, why not say something like "You're not going to be just gathering genki"? The reference to quantity supports his later "ki" comment is still referring to genki.

This doesn't help you. Vegeta's statement, if you want to put a pronoun there for clarity is this:
“I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit [of it]. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
The pronoun would reference a preceding noun, which in this case would be Genki. I know I'm using English but that's the translation we have.

Also, why would it still be called a Super Genki Dama in the Daizenshuu if it doesn't just involve genki? Shueisha's staff has changed the names for attacks/forms before to denote a difference from what the original material suggested (Giji Super Saiyan, for example, when movie 4 only referred to it as Super Saiyan). If it involved more than just genki, why didn't they name it the Ki Dama or something along those lines? Their desire to keep it as "Genki Dama", and just slapping a Super in front indicates that it is still made up of just genki.

It's a normal Genki Dama that's also souped up with everyone's Ki up to their limit. Naming conventions don't change anything either way.

Goku came up with Gohan and Gotenks first, which means that he still thought they'd at least be able to do something (and given that Goku had earlier established that Gohan was far stronger than he was, that's not an unreasonable assumption), and then later berated Vegeta for considering the Genki Dama instead. Likewise, Kaiou's line was more him just being elated that Vegeta would suggest his technique as a means of defeating Buu, and not an indication of it being their only way of beating him. The DBS manga doesn't support Pure Buu being the strongest, the DBS anime (as I said before) is vague and inaccurate as far as the reasoning Vegeta would make such statements, and the Daizenshuu itself isn't the most valid in this case because it draws its information from both the manga and anime, thus a statement saying that Pure Buu is the strongest would be skewed by it being flat out said he's the strongest in filler.

Goku mentioning Gohan and Gotenks just means he was guessing at Vegeta's plan. Maybe the two of them would hold of Kid Buu or Potara or... who knows? Nothing said they would win and that's still two people together against Kid Buu who fought Goku solo. King Kai was pleased at his technique's usage yes, but he's also in a position to point out any flaws in the plan. The fact that literally all the Z fighters were in mental communication and no one bothered to ask about teleporting in Gohan for an easy win is damming evidence.

The part of Daizenshuu that is the manga guide says Kid Buu is the strongest and in another part says Goku and Kid Buu are fellow strongest. It can talk about the anime and movies in other parts but that part is the manga guide.

What about Dragon Ball Forever expressly stating that Buu got weaker when absorptions were removed, and even specifically showed Vegeta removing Mr. Buu's cocoon as an illustration of that point? A databook devoted to the manga using the formation of Pure Buu as evidence of Buu getting weaker when absorptions are removed. Given everything else that's shown, it fits the narrative perfectly. With Goku, despite being weaker than Gotenks and Gohan, being the only one around, what better means of having one last 1vs1 battle than to make the last Buu that appears weak enough that they fought evenly.

That's easily explainable by Buuhan losing multiple absorptions and getting weakened. The excerpt is talking about absorptions multiple. Taking out the singular absorption of Fat Buu is actually stated to spike his power up if anything. Piccolo, Goten, Gohan Trunks and Super Buu are all lost absorptions that together lost power.

It has to be though. The true, original Pure Buu became Fat Buu after absorbing the South Kaioushin and later the Dai Kaioushin. Nothing about Fat Buu changes until he purges the evil within him, becoming Mr. Buu in the process. That evil, in turn, becomes the Pure Evil Buu, and from that point on he is the new base. He absorbs Mr. Buu, then Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan, but loses them all later, resulting in the formation of Pure Buu. It's all one straight line of gaining and losing the same absorptions, so the Pure Evil Buu needs to be the new base. Evil Buu's comment about ceasing to be is logically just meaning that version of him will cease. It's still the exact same Buu that is existing, but it's just a different personality.

Thus, while Goku specifically wanted Buu to be reincarnated as a result of his fight with Pure Buu, it doesn't change that it's still the same Buu as Evil Buu, Gotenks Buu, etc, and therefore Dende's line is just speaking of Buu in general, not Pure Buu specifically.

I know what you're saying but you're going out of your way to reinterprete very simple issues. You want to say Super Buu is the new base but an synonym for base is starting point. The starting point of Buu is Pure Buu. We don't need to invent new rules for what base is. Kid Buu is the first and Pure Buu. If Super Buu ceases to exist, what's left is the purest form of Buu. This also corresponds perfectly with the clear statement Super Buu has ceased to exist. He didn't just revert, though he did do that too. He ceased to exist.

If we eliminate all the impurities of gold what are we left with? Pure Gold. Take out all the extra stuff that has accumulated in Buu, ie they cease to exist. What's left? Pure Buu. Why make this harder when the simple explanations that are stated are enough?

There's also this one scan from Daizenshuu that is relevant here:
[spoiler]https://imgur.com/QzDgHb7[/spoiler]
It's another reinforcement of the general concept that is being conveyed. Kid Buu and Goku are supposed to be strongest and in this instance, Goku is saluting Kid Buu as a warrior that fought all comers. It says Goku's feelings are understood by his fellow strongest. He's talking to Buu here. So which Buu understands what his feelings as a warrior? Is it Super Buu who ceased to exist? Or is it Kid Buu who is reincarnated as Goku wishes for him to be in this same conversation? There's no need to make extenuating reasons here. It's clear this is Kid Buu and Goku.

[Darkprince410]

First we have Vegeta saying they'll gather Ki up to their limits. He uses the term Ki not me. Then we have Daizenshuu which says the Super Genki Dama is different because it's "made by asking everyone to donate Ki." Here:

Which, as pointed out time and again, doesn't necessarily mean total ki. Ki and genki, when in reference to the Genki Dama, have been used interchangeably, and there is nothing at all saying that it is different in this case. You can try to argue that point all you want, but there is no evidence saying that the use of "ki" for this final Genki Dama is different than when it was used in the Saiyan arc or the Freeza arc for those Genki Dama. The Daizenshuu's entry does not contradict this or support that it has to be total ki.

This doesn't help you. Vegeta's statement, if you want to put a pronoun there for clarity is this:
“I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit [of it]. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
The pronoun would reference a preceding noun, which in this case would be Genki. I know I'm using English but that's the translation we have.

The pronoun doesn't alter my interpretation, and in fact supports it. "Won't be just bits of it" means that whatever is going to be taken won't be just some "of it", but most, if not all, "of it", and we already know what that pronoun is referring to, genki. Thus, referring to ki right does not indicate anything different than the other times ki was used in place of genki for earlier situations. Let's look at it this way. We'll replace ki with "it" for the line in question.

“I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit [of it]. We’ll gather it from them right up to their limits!”

In that context, it's clear as a whistle he's referring to genki, and since, as pointed out many times before, ki has been used when referring to genki, what suddenly makes the use of ki in this instance so different than those earlier ones?

It's a normal Genki Dama that's also souped up with everyone's Ki up to their limit. Naming conventions don't change anything either way.

Once anything apart from genki comes into the picture, it ceases to be a Genki Dama. Genki Dama establishes one thing, that genki is what is being used. Not shuuki or youki or seiki or any other element of ki, just genki. The naming convention speaks volumes about what it is, so it being called Super Genki Dama really can't mean anything else.

That's easily explainable by Buuhan losing multiple absorptions and getting weakened. The excerpt is talking about absorptions multiple. Taking out the singular absorption of Fat Buu is actually stated to spike his power up if anything. Piccolo, Goten, Gohan Trunks and Super Buu are all lost absorptions that together lost power.

For starters, why use that particular image then? Why use the one image of something that, by your statements, involved a stronger Buu forming if the excerpt was for describing that Buu lost power when absorptions were removed? Secondly, that power spike was indicated to be temporary. Goku readily indicated that he and Vegeta stood no chance against the base Evil Buu, yet, upon sensing Pure Buu's formation, felt they stood a chance, and that they had succeeded in doing what they had been trying to do, which was weaken Buu. Evil Buu was "almost there", but Pure Buu was a success in his eyes, thus a noted power drop.

I know what you're saying but you're going out of your way to reinterprete very simple issues. You want to say Super Buu is the new base but an synonym for base is starting point. The starting point of Buu is Pure Buu. We don't need to invent new rules for what base is. Kid Buu is the first and Pure Buu. If Super Buu ceases to exist, what's left is the purest form of Buu. This also corresponds perfectly with the clear statement Super Buu has ceased to exist. He didn't just revert, though he did do that too. He ceased to exist.

Given what is shown, there's only one of two ways things could play out. One, the Pure Evil Buu that formed when Fat Buu expelled him is Pure Buu (it's all the evil within Buu, after all), and thus it's just another form for him, which makes the Pure Evil Buu, Evil Buu and all his forms, etc the same Buu, or that the original Pure Buu exists within Mr. Buu, and the Pure Buu we get at the end of the arc is the end line from the Pure Evil Buu. Again, this makes them all the same Buu. Evil Buu's line is only referring to his current form, that he will cease to exist as himself. He'll still exist (in a different form) but it will be a different personality. The Doctor Who comparison I made earlier is still valid here. Only that particular incarnation "dies", not the entire individual.

[MisterGuyMan]

Which, as pointed out time and again, doesn't necessarily mean total ki. Ki and genki, when in reference to the Genki Dama, have been used interchangeably, and there is nothing at all saying that it is different in this case. You can try to argue that point all you want, but there is no evidence saying that the use of "ki" for this final Genki Dama is different than when it was used in the Saiyan arc or the Freeza arc for those Genki Dama. The Daizenshuu's entry does not contradict this or support that it has to be total ki.

Did you read both entries? The original Genki Dama is made with energy, that's the term it uses. The Super Genki Dama is one made when people "donate their Ki" where again that's the term they insist on using.

Your reading would be that a normal Genki Dama takes Genki but a Super Genki Dama also takes people's Genki. That's redundant and makes no sense.

Here's another excerpt where it references Vegeta's idea, which uses the term Ki, then also later uses the word power, a synonym for Ki;
[spoiler][/spoiler]

"Won't be just bits of it" means that whatever is going to be taken won't be just some "of it", but most, if not all, "of it", and we already know what that pronoun is referring to, genki. Thus, referring to ki right does not indicate anything different than the other times ki was used in place of genki for earlier situations. Let's look at it this way. We'll replace ki with "it" for the line in question.

“I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit [of it]. We’ll gather it from them right up to their limits!”

In that context, it's clear as a whistle he's referring to genki, and since, as pointed out many times before, ki has been used when referring to genki, what suddenly makes the use of ki in this instance so different than those earlier ones?

Ki isn't a pronoun though. It's specifically a noun and they used the word Ki there. Pronouns reference the last noun. So Ki here in independent of Genki. That's why I put the pronoun where I did. It illustrates that it would have to reference Genki. Ki refers to nothing but itself. Ki is just Ki.

Once anything apart from genki comes into the picture, it ceases to be a Genki Dama. Genki Dama establishes one thing, that genki is what is being used. Not shuuki or youki or seiki or any other element of ki, just genki. The naming convention speaks volumes about what it is, so it being called Super Genki Dama really can't mean anything else.

This is just your reasoning. I'm actually citing Daizenshuu. Daizenshuu says a Genki Dama collects energy (genki). It then has a seperate entry for the Super Genki Dama where it says it collects Ki. As I already mentioned before, your reading of that entry is redundant. Genki Dama collects Genki and the Super Genki Dama collects Genki. That's how your reading looks like. It never spells out the difference but just says the same thing twice

For starters, why use that particular image then? Why use the one image of something that, by your statements, involved a stronger Buu forming if the excerpt was for describing that Buu lost power when absorptions were removed? Secondly, that power spike was indicated to be temporary. Goku readily indicated that he and Vegeta stood no chance against the base Evil Buu, yet, upon sensing Pure Buu's formation, felt they stood a chance, and that they had succeeded in doing what they had been trying to do, which was weaken Buu. Evil Buu was "almost there", but Pure Buu was a success in his eyes, thus a noted power drop.

They have to use some picture so why not that one?

Also it was never stated that the power loss was temporary. Vegeta remarks on Kid Buu's small size and that's it. Once Kid Buu screams they freak out and later Vegeta says he's stronger than he imagined. So whatever their initial impressions were inappropriate.

Given what is shown, there's only one of two ways things could play out. One, the Pure Evil Buu that formed when Fat Buu expelled him is Pure Buu (it's all the evil within Buu, after all), and thus it's just another form for him, which makes the Pure Evil Buu, Evil Buu and all his forms, etc the same Buu, or that the original Pure Buu exists within Mr. Buu, and the Pure Buu we get at the end of the arc is the end line from the Pure Evil Buu. Again, this makes them all the same Buu. Evil Buu's line is only referring to his current form, that he will cease to exist as himself. He'll still exist (in a different form) but it will be a different personality. The Doctor Who comparison I made earlier is still valid here. Only that particular incarnation "dies", not the entire individual.

Super Buu ceased to exist. Kid Buu continued to exist. That's the simple solution to all of this and it's one using simply to follow logic that is backed up by what is stated. Kid Buu is the first Buu which contradicts your claim that Evil Buu is now the new base. You're introducing lots of unproveable assumptions. I'm just repeating the simple explanations given.

When Goku is talking to Buu, Daizenshuu says his feelings are understood by his fellow strongest. This is the same Buu that is reincarnated. So which Buu here understands Goku? Is it Super Buu or Kid Buu? It can only be one Buu in particular.

[Darkprince410]

Did you read both entries? The original Genki Dama is made with energy, that's the term it uses. The Super Genki Dama is one made when people "donate their Ki" where again that's the term they insist on using.

Yes, I read both entries, and it's irrelevant. Since ki and genki have been used interchangeably when in reference to the Genki Dama, you cannot refute with any degree of certainty that the entry in the Daizenshuu isn't doing the same. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that the Super Genki Dama uses the entirety of ki, and not simply genki, to power it up. What you've attempted to show so far doesn't in the slightest, since we already have precedence that shows the terms being interchangeable, and there's nothing (in the manga or Daizenshuu) showing that this case, with the Super Genki Dama, is anything different than those earlier ones.

Ki isn't a pronoun though. It's specifically a noun and they used the word Ki there. Pronouns reference the last noun. So Ki here in independent of Genki. That's why I put the pronoun where I did. It illustrates that it would have to reference Genki. Ki refers to nothing but itself. Ki is just Ki.

Except when it's used in reference to the Genki Dama, in which case ki can be just genki. I was using the pronoun to illustrate the point that Vegeta's line works perfectly with ki being used just to describe genki, because that's very well what it was meaning.

This is just your reasoning. I'm actually citing Daizenshuu. Daizenshuu says a Genki Dama collects energy (genki). It then has a seperate entry for the Super Genki Dama where it says it collects Ki. As I already mentioned before, your reading of that entry is redundant. Genki Dama collects Genki and the Super Genki Dama collects Genki. That's how your reading looks like. It never spells out the difference but just says the same thing twice

Even keeping both as collecting genki, there is a difference stated. The regular one just collects the genki, while the Super one asks for donation. Therein lies the difference, the same difference established in the manga. Regular Genki Dama is passive collection of genki, while the Super Genki Dama is active donation of genki. That's all the difference there needs to be, and the only difference we can actually say with any degree of certainty. There needs to be some piece of dialogue in the manga or some excerpt in the Daizenshuu specifically saying it doesn't use just genki (and there isn't) before it can be argued that ki, in this case, means the entirety of ki.

They have to use some picture so why not that one?

Also it was never stated that the power loss was temporary. Vegeta remarks on Kid Buu's small size and that's it. Once Kid Buu screams they freak out and later Vegeta says he's stronger than he imagined. So whatever their initial impressions were inappropriate.

Because it's the one picture that, if Buu became permanently stronger, would be contradictory to the fact they were trying to establish? There were multiple other images of pods being removed that could have been used where it unanimously made Buu weaker, so why would they use a panel of Mr. Buu being removed to illustrate the point if Buu grew stronger there?

I'm not talking about Vegeta's line. I'm referring to Goku's.

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

This is the line denoting the decrease. Goku had already established before that Evil Buu was something too strong for the two of them to handle, and that fusion was the only way they could beat him. This being despite the fact that they had weakened him considerably, as they were only "almost there" in terms of getting him to a low enough level.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Evil Buu is, by his own words, "almost there but still too strong for them", but Pure Buu is something that he states they've succeeded with and that they might be able to handle something.

Likewise, Vegeta's comment about Buu being stronger than he imagined is again irrelevant, as it's Goku that matters here. At no point does Goku think that Pure Buu is stronger than he imagined or initially thought. More resilient? Harder to damage? Sure. But not stronger. If Goku doesn't believe he's stronger, then what he established earlier about Pure Buu's power having dropped from where it was as Evil Buu remains.

Super Buu ceased to exist. Kid Buu continued to exist. That's the simple solution to all of this and it's one using simply to follow logic that is backed up by what is stated. Kid Buu is the first Buu which contradicts your claim that Evil Buu is now the new base. You're introducing lots of unproveable assumptions. I'm just repeating the simple explanations given.

When Goku is talking to Buu, Daizenshuu says his feelings are understood by his fellow strongest. This is the same Buu that is reincarnated. So which Buu here understands Goku? Is it Super Buu or Kid Buu? It can only be one Buu in particular.

It's still all the same Buu. Evil Buu is just an incarnation of Buu brought about by absorption. Is Gohan Buu a totally different Buu than Piccolo Buu is? No, he's still the same Buu, just changed because of an absorption. When the absorption is removed, that incarnation of Buu disappears, but it doesn't change that it's still the same Buu. I'm not making a lot of assumptions that can't be proved. I'm going with the only observation that can logically be made. Before Fat Buu expelled the evil within him, where was Pure Buu? Part of him, obviously. Fat Buu is the end product of him absorbing the South and Dai Kaioushin. Fat Buu expels the evil within him, and now where is Pure Buu? If he's still part of Mr. Buu, then the Pure Evil Buu is the start of a new line. If he's in the Pure Evil Buu, that still means that the Pure Evil Buu is the start of a new line, and indicates Pure Buu's strength as it'd mean the two are fundamentally the same being and thus, logically, the same strength.

Fellow strongest meaning Buu in general, given that it's the same Buu.

[MisterGuyMan]

Yes, I read both entries, and it's irrelevant. Since ki and genki have been used interchangeably when in reference to the Genki Dama, you cannot refute with any degree of certainty that the entry in the Daizenshuu isn't doing the same. The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence that the Super Genki Dama uses the entirety of ki, and not simply genki, to power it up. What you've attempted to show so far doesn't in the slightest, since we already have precedence that shows the terms being interchangeable, and there's nothing (in the manga or Daizenshuu) showing that this case, with the Super Genki Dama, is anything different than those earlier ones.

I did prove that they weren't used interchangeably. I'll condense the entries and highight the relevant parts so it's easier to see:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Genki Dama - A Technique that gathers energy (genki)
Super Genki Dama - A Genki Dama made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their Ki.
The sub entry explains the difference between the Super Genki Dama and the normal Genki Dama. It requires the previous definition because it needs you to already know what a Genki Dama is before it can explain to you what a Super Genki Dama is and how it's different. Your reading is redundant. For you the entry for the Genki Dama would read:
Super Genki Dama - A Technique that gathers energy made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their energy.
By contrast a normal reading would be simple
A Technique that gathers energy made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their Ki.

Plus we now have more information from DBS that makes this kinda irrelevant. The ToP Genki Dama, like it or not, shows us that however much energy Gohan gave to the Genki Dama, that energy was greater than his own power. So even if it is just Genki... that doesn't matter. Whatever Gohan gave created a Ki Attack that is stronger than Gohan himself.

Except when it's used in reference to the Genki Dama, in which case ki can be just genki. I was using the pronoun to illustrate the point that Vegeta's line works perfectly with ki being used just to describe genki, because that's very well what it was meaning.

That's the thing though. There is no pronoun there. Ki is its own noun. It stands by itself. "We won't just gather little bits" is referring to something previously. The word Ki is not.

Even keeping both as collecting genki, there is a difference stated. The regular one just collects the genki, while the Super one asks for donation. Therein lies the difference, the same difference established in the manga. Regular Genki Dama is passive collection of genki, while the Super Genki Dama is active donation of genki. That's all the difference there needs to be, and the only difference we can actually say with any degree of certainty. There needs to be some piece of dialogue in the manga or some excerpt in the Daizenshuu specifically saying it doesn't use just genki (and there isn't) before it can be argued that ki, in this case, means the entirety of ki.

Ok so let's apply the same logic. In this instance people donating their "ki" up to their limit is synomonous with them donating their power:
[spoiler]Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo!

Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”[/spoiler]
So Vegeta, the guy who said they will gather their Ki up to their limits, is also now using power interchangeably with the word Ki. So using your same argument that Genki and Ki are used interchangeably then we can now use Ki and Power interchangeably too. So Vegeta's plan is now also read as “We’ll gather power from them right up to their limits!”

We also have clear evidence that power level does increase the power of the Genki Dama since the handful of friends Goku has were already able to make a huge Genki Dama:
[spoiler]Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”[/spoiler]
Purely by numbers, they're nowhere close to the billions of people of Earth.

I'm not talking about Vegeta's line. I'm referring to Goku's.

There's no contradiction. The excerpt is for multiple absorptions. So we need multiple absorptions that all, together, weaken him.

This is the line denoting the decrease. Goku had already established before that Evil Buu was something too strong for the two of them to handle, and that fusion was the only way they could beat him. This being despite the fact that they had weakened him considerably, as they were only "almost there" in terms of getting him to a low enough level.

It doesn't specifically state a decrease though. That entire scene was basically a gag to make Kid Buu look weak physically, then the heroes freak out once he screams. It's a Toriyama trope that he uses a lot. The line later where Vegeta says he's stronger than he imagined takes precedence over their mistaken initial impressions. If you want to argue there was an decrease you need an actual line saying there's a decrease. You're holding me to that standard and more to prove my claims so you have to follow that too.

Likewise, Vegeta's comment about Buu being stronger than he imagined is again irrelevant, as it's Goku that matters here. At no point does Goku think that Pure Buu is stronger than he imagined or initially thought. More resilient? Harder to damage? Sure. But not stronger. If Goku doesn't believe he's stronger, then what he established earlier about Pure Buu's power having dropped from where it was as Evil Buu remains.

If you want to cite Goku then we have a quote from him explaining that without the Genki Dama nothing would have stopped Kid Buu, which would also include Gohan:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So between the two we have later statements telling us why they were wrong to take Buu so lightly. After Buu screams, neither of them had anything but respect for Kid Buu.

It's still all the same Buu. Evil Buu is just an incarnation of Buu brought about by absorption. Is Gohan Buu a totally different Buu than Piccolo Buu is? No, he's still the same Buu, just changed because of an absorption. When the absorption is removed, that incarnation of Buu disappears, but it doesn't change that it's still the same Buu. I'm not making a lot of assumptions that can't be proved. I'm going with the only observation that can logically be made. Before Fat Buu expelled the evil within him, where was Pure Buu? Part of him, obviously. Fat Buu is the end product of him absorbing the South and Dai Kaioushin. Fat Buu expels the evil within him, and now where is Pure Buu? If he's still part of Mr. Buu, then the Pure Evil Buu is the start of a new line. If he's in the Pure Evil Buu, that still means that the Pure Evil Buu is the start of a new line, and indicates Pure Buu's strength as it'd mean the two are fundamentally the same being and thus, logically, the same strength.

Fellow strongest meaning Buu in general, given that it's the same Buu.

You keep saying this but you have no actual evidence. You say it's the same Buu. The material says one of those Buu's ceases to exist. You're the one making an argument that outright contradicts what is clearly stated here, not me. Your "Buu Line" theory is just that, a theory. How Kid Buu transfers around his Kid-ness is not explained. We're not told that Kid Buu's persona is transferred like a mantle or something. We simply don't know. So your Line Theory, while it might make sense to you, cannot be taken as fact because it contradicts the statement that Super Buu ceased to exist.

You also evaded the pertinent question. Daizenshuu said Goku's feelings are understood only by his fellow strongest. Who is this person that understand Goku? It's not Fat Buu. He's unconscious. It's not Super Buu or Buuhan or Buutenks or Buucolo, they don't exist. The only version of Buu that can understand anything about Goku at this point is Kid Buu. You can't hide under the "They're all the same" argument in this instance. "Understanding Goku" is an identifying feature. It's a term that intentionally singles out one version of Buu because this Buu is doing something specific, ie understanding Goku's feelings. This is no longer a general Buu thing. It's just Kid Buu.

[Darkprince410]

Genki Dama - A Technique that gathers energy (genki)
Super Genki Dama - A Genki Dama made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their Ki.
The sub entry explains the difference between the Super Genki Dama and the normal Genki Dama. It requires the previous definition because it needs you to already know what a Genki Dama is before it can explain to you what a Super Genki Dama is and how it's different. Your reading is redundant. For you the entry for the Genki Dama would read:
Super Genki Dama - A Technique that gathers energy made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their energy.
By contrast a normal reading would be simple
A Technique that gathers energy made by asking everyone on Earth to donate their Ki.

As I've said before, that is not evidence. You need to show something indicating that the use of ki there is meaning actual ki, and not just genki. You are the one that is creating the redundancy in your version of the Super Genki Dama entry, but even then it doesn't affect the way it'd be read if ki and genki are interchangeable there. The Super Genki Dama is a Genki Dama made by asking everyone on Earth to donate. Something needs to be added to that to specify what is being donated, otherwise it could be absolutely anything. Dirty laundry, zeni, canned foods, etc. It being slightly redundant and having it be "their energy" doesn't immediately invalidate it making sense in that context. It's just saying what was donated.

Ok so let's apply the same logic. In this instance people donating their "ki" up to their limit is synomonous with them donating their power:

So Vegeta, the guy who said they will gather their Ki up to their limits, is also now using power interchangeably with the word Ki. So using your same argument that Genki and Ki are used interchangeably then we can now use Ki and Power interchangeably too. So Vegeta's plan is now also read as “We’ll gather power from them right up to their limits!”

As mentioned before, power has also been used specifically for the regular Genki Dama as well, making that a moot point.

“Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”

There's no contradiction. The excerpt is for multiple absorptions. So we need multiple absorptions that all, together, weaken him.

Then again, why use a scene depicting the one time Buu didn't get weaker from losing an absorption (by your version of events) to illustrate the fact that Buu got weaker?

It doesn't specifically state a decrease though. That entire scene was basically a gag to make Kid Buu look weak physically, then the heroes freak out once he screams. It's a Toriyama trope that he uses a lot. The line later where Vegeta says he's stronger than he imagined takes precedence over their mistaken initial impressions. If you want to argue there was an decrease you need an actual line saying there's a decrease. You're holding me to that standard and more to prove my claims so you have to follow that too.

You can only make the argument toward Vegeta basing his opinion of Buu on physical size. Goku has repeatedly shown that he doesn't base his opinion of a fighter's strength and capabilities on their physical appearance if he can sense their ki, thus there's no reason to assume, for a moment, that he is judging his opinion of Buu on Buu's physical appearance.

Likewise, Vegeta's later admission of Buu being stronger than he thought only factors into his initial opinions, not Goku's. Goku makes no indication that Buu is more powerful than he previously thought. More resilient and harder to take out due to his regeneration, yes, but at no point does he indicate that Buu is more powerful than he previously believed (the "might be able to manage something")

We know Goku readily established he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu. We know Goku felt he'd be capable of fighting against Pure Buu, and maintains this until he physically couldn't maintain Super Saiyan 3 anymore.

If you want to cite Goku then we have a quote from him explaining that without the Genki Dama nothing would have stopped Kid Buu, which would also include Gohan:

Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu gave them the opportunity to resurrect the Earth in the first place. If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in briefly to distract Buu from killing Vegeta, Mr. Buu wouldn't have been spit out, and if he hadn't have appeared, then Buu would have finished off Vegeta, ending his existence completely, and then he'd have finished off Goku, who couldn't maintain the drain of Super Saiyan 3. Thus, with those two gone and Gohan and the others still dead, Buu would have went on unopposed. Nothing about Goku's line says that the Genki Dama was their only means of defeating Buu.

You keep saying this but you have no actual evidence. You say it's the same Buu. The material says one of those Buu's ceases to exist. You're the one making an argument that outright contradicts what is clearly stated here, not me. Your "Buu Line" theory is just that, a theory. How Kid Buu transfers around his Kid-ness is not explained. We're not told that Kid Buu's persona is transferred like a mantle or something. We simply don't know. So your Line Theory, while it might make sense to you, cannot be taken as fact because it contradicts the statement that Super Buu ceased to exist.

That version of him ceased to exist. That mind, that personality, that version of Buu ceased to exist. The only way for it to not be the same Buu still is if the Evil Buu literally disappeared completely and a new one popped up out of nothingness, but that's not what happened. We physically saw his transformation from Evil Buu back down to the Pure Buu, meaning it's still the same Buu. Let's say you're in an accident. You lose all memory of who you are and your personality changes as a result of the injury. Are you literally a different person now or are you the same person, just changed?