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Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
The manga directly states that the plan is the draw their Ki "up to their limit" which means that the Genki Dama is taking all of Gohan's Ki and all of that Ki probably isn't enough to beat Kid Buu. When some one's Ki isn't strong enough in DB that's always had the same meaning that they're not strong enough.ZeroNeonix wrote:The Spirit Bomb ≠ Gohan. Just because he took some of Gohan's energy doesn't make the Spirit Bomb equal in power to the whole of Gohan. After Vegeta had wished all of the earthlings back to life, Goku even thought that he was going to have Gohan fight Buu and seemed pretty optimistic about that idea. What Vegeta had in mind was more symbolic, however. He could have wished Gohan to the planet of the kais to finish Buu off, but he thought it was more appropriate that the earthlings they continually protected would be the ones to save themselves for once.
We see this occur in BoG as well. All the Saiyans give Goku their Ki in their failed attempt to make SSG and Goku literally just adds their power into his own. That's what the Genki Dama is doing. Taking everyone's Ki "up to their limit" then adding them together. Moreover the DBS' ToP directly shows us that the Super Genki Dama is intended to be a massively overpowered technique. Everyone in U7 isn't as strong as SSBKKx20 Goku but their power into the Genki Dama is much stronger.
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
We're talking about less than twice the amount of what made Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan stronger than Evil Boo, due to the latter having absorbed his equal into his frame as Gotenks Boo. With Goku having fought Pure Boo almost equally, to the point when his full power would be enough to defeat him, should the stamina issue not persist, Gohan's power with all the others' would have sufficed, in case the goal was not to surpass the enemy. The Genki-dama was overpowered alright. It surpassed anyone who had contributed to it and it killed Pure Boo as the end result.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Who are all the others exactly? The Genki Dama with Gohan and friends' Ki alone is stated to not be enough. They needed everyone on Earth, Namek and the Afterlife to beat Kid Buu. Yes, the completed Genki Dama is supposed to be an overpowered technique but even the incomplete Genki Dama, which had Gohan's Ki plus a few others, should have still been more powerful than Gohan's full power alone. That's how it's portrayed in the ToP. However powerful you are, the Genki Dama will make your power stronger somehow.Desassina wrote:We're talking about less than twice the amount of what made Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan stronger than Evil Boo, due to the latter having absorbed his equal into his frame as Gotenks Boo. With Goku having fought Pure Boo almost equally, to the point when his full power would be enough to defeat him, should the stamina issue not persist, Gohan's power with all the others' would have sufficed, in case the goal was not to surpass the enemy. The Genki-dama was overpowered alright. It surpassed anyone who had contributed to it and it killed Pure Boo as the end result.
The raw power of Buu is also hard to define. Goku states after his fight with Fat Buu that his power is like a lie. Toriyama said in an interview that his power is unfathomable and that Buu himself doesn't know his true power. In the manga we see this in action when Buff Buu just becomes more powerful than Super Buu. Most people attribute this to South Kaio Shin's absorbed power but why can't Super Buu access this power? SK is still abosrbed. He should have access to it... but he can't. Fat Buu just gets magically stronger by beating up rocks with Satan too. Goku still wants his full power to fight Kid Buu even after 130 episodes of DBS powerups. It's very possible that Buu just always had lots of power that he himself never knew about or couldn't access with all the evidence.
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Doesn't the Genki Dama take only the genki part of the Ki? We know KI is divided in three parts and since it's in the name that's the assumption.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
The normal Genki Dama gathers genki in small amounts. The Super Genki Dama gathers this but also gathers Ki that people donate willingly:LightBing wrote:Doesn't the Genki Dama take only the genki part of the Ki? We know KI is divided in three parts and since it's in the name that's the assumption.
[spoiler]Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”
Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”[/spoiler]
Note that the first quote explains the difference. Goku first says gathering a little bit of Genki from everyone won't be enough against Kid Buu. That's the normal Genki Dama. Vegeta responds that they won't just do that but gather Ki from everyone up to their limits. That's the Super Genki Dama and the attack has its own excerpt apart from the normal Genki Dama in the guides as well. In that last quote Enma says the Genki Dama has their power too right after Dende says they gave their Ki. This is why I feel safe equating Ki and Power here. This is also confirmed in Daizenshuu:
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
That's simply too much to take in. Try to make the argument simpler. Goku would have known that his full power was enough to defeat Pure Boo in case he used it without mourning over his stamina, because he had hands on experience fighting him and knew that Vegetto would make it even easier, so Pure Boo's power is not so abstract that it could be anything. Putting doubt on Goku's words applies to even the Genki-dama being insufficient to defeat Pure Boo, so when you raise the ceiling for either one of them, the power of those who contributed ends up being the same.MisterGuyMan wrote:Who are all the others exactly? The Genki Dama with Gohan and friends' Ki alone is stated to not be enough. They needed everyone on Earth, Namek and the Afterlife to beat Kid Buu. Yes, the completed Genki Dama is supposed to be an overpowered technique but even the incomplete Genki Dama, which had Gohan's Ki plus a few others, should have still been more powerful than Gohan's full power alone. That's how it's portrayed in the ToP. However powerful you are, the Genki Dama will make your power stronger somehow.
The raw power of Buu is also hard to define. Goku states after his fight with Fat Buu that his power is like a lie. Toriyama said in an interview that his power is unfathomable and that Buu himself doesn't know his true power. In the manga we see this in action when Buff Buu just becomes more powerful than Super Buu. Most people attribute this to South Kaio Shin's absorbed power but why can't Super Buu access this power? SK is still abosrbed. He should have access to it... but he can't. Fat Buu just gets magically stronger by beating up rocks with Satan too. Goku still wants his full power to fight Kid Buu even after 130 episodes of DBS powerups. It's very possible that Buu just always had lots of power that he himself never knew about or couldn't access with all the evidence.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Kid Buu could only be the strongest if Vegito's power split into Goku and Vegeta after fusion.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
That's like assuming someone meant chemistry as a whole when they say "Let's study chemistry" but he's refering to organic chemistry. It's a metonymy from Goku and Vegeta.MisterGuyMan wrote:The normal Genki Dama gathers genki in small amounts. The Super Genki Dama gathers this but also gathers Ki that people donate willingly:
[spoiler]Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”
Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.5-6
Context: people on Namek and in the afterlife watch Boo stall the Genki-Dama
Elder Kaioshin: “Th-this is bad. Ma-maybe that ‘Genki-Dama’ thing st-still doesn’t have enough power…”
Dende: “Th-that can’t be…! We-we already used our ki…”
Enma Daio: “Ha-hang in there, Son Goku…! Th-that Genki-Dama has power from us here in the afterlife in it too…!”[/spoiler]
Note that the first quote explains the difference. Goku first says gathering a little bit of Genki from everyone won't be enough against Kid Buu. That's the normal Genki Dama. Vegeta responds that they won't just do that but gather Ki from everyone up to their limits. That's the Super Genki Dama and the attack has its own excerpt apart from the normal Genki Dama in the guides as well. In that last quote Enma says the Genki Dama has their power too right after Dende says they gave their Ki. This is why I feel safe equating Ki and Power here. This is also confirmed in Daizenshuu:
There is no possible way an attack made of Genki can do any use of components like Shouki and Yuuki, because they have nothing to do with Genki. It's like trying to fuel your car with water after you've run out of gas.
It's also very possible Goku went for the overkill with the Chou Genki Dama and collected way more than the necessary, given how the Spirit Bomb failed twice with opponents who can't even regenerate.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Your example is actually opposite of what we have here. Organic chemistry is a subset of chemistry as a whole just like Genki is a subset of Ki as a whole. If Organic chemistry as a field isn't enough then the entirety of chemistry as a field in its entirety might offer a solution. In other words, organic chemistry needs help so it calls on other parts of chemistry. That's what we have here. Genki, a subset of Ki, is not enough, therefore Goku channels Ki which is more than mere Genki.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:That's like assuming someone meant chemistry as a whole when they say "Let's study chemistry" but he's refering to organic chemistry. It's a metonymy from Goku and Vegeta.
There is no possible way an attack made of Genki can do any use of components like Shouki and Yuuki, because they have nothing to do with Genki. It's like trying to fuel your car with water after you've run out of gas.
I also cited the difference as explained in the manga between the normal Genki Dama and the Super Genki Dama. Vegeta says that bits of Genki isn't enough so they'll gather everyone's Ki "up to their limits." This is not simply a mixup of terms. It's a direct difference that is explained clearly. One has just tiny bits of Genki. They other has lots of everyone's Ki. Daizenshuu confirms this when it describes the Super Genki Dama as a subcategory of the Genki Dama in the encyclopedia:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So between the manga and Daizenshuu it's clear that the difference between the normal and Super Genki Dama is that the latter gets everyone's Ki.
It's possible but we know from DBS' ToP anime arc that the combined power of the people who donate to the Genki Dama is greater than the sum of its parts. So regardless of how much overkill the Super Genki Dama was, Goku felt that a massive ball of Ki stronger than Gohan's probably wouldn't kill Kid Buu.It's also very possible Goku went for the overkill with the Chou Genki Dama and collected way more than the necessary, given how the Spirit Bomb failed twice with opponents who can't even regenerate.
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
It's not necessarily just a matter of A > B, with Gohan's power compared to Boo's. For one, as others have said, the Spirit Bomb probably needed to be massively overkill to definitely finish Boo for good, and even Gohan's enormous, Goku-eclipsing power may simply not have been enough when (mostly) on its own.
But on top of that, it's not just a matter of how much ki power you have, but also how you use it. Just Gohan being at 10 while Pure Boo is at 5 wouldn't do the job as-is; that's how your average space thug fights, with just their surface-level power, and it's easily survivable even for someone without utterly broken regeneration.
Gohan would have to still amplify his power and put it into a big attack with concentrated, focused power of like 30 or something. Doing that would make it very easy for him to defeat Boo, much easier than for Goku who's at the same 5 as Boo, but it would still be necessary. Likewise, just taking Gohan's 10 power and transferring it to a Spirit Bomb wouldn't be enough, because at that point the power is just sitting there and Boo can resist it. Goku needs way more total power than that, and he needs to use it effectively.
There's more to it than just "A has more surface-level power than B so A wins." There always is.
But on top of that, it's not just a matter of how much ki power you have, but also how you use it. Just Gohan being at 10 while Pure Boo is at 5 wouldn't do the job as-is; that's how your average space thug fights, with just their surface-level power, and it's easily survivable even for someone without utterly broken regeneration.
Gohan would have to still amplify his power and put it into a big attack with concentrated, focused power of like 30 or something. Doing that would make it very easy for him to defeat Boo, much easier than for Goku who's at the same 5 as Boo, but it would still be necessary. Likewise, just taking Gohan's 10 power and transferring it to a Spirit Bomb wouldn't be enough, because at that point the power is just sitting there and Boo can resist it. Goku needs way more total power than that, and he needs to use it effectively.
There's more to it than just "A has more surface-level power than B so A wins." There always is.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
The problem with this is that a minute before Goku says Gohan's and the other's Ki probably isn't enough, Goku says he can charge his Ki for a minute to kill Kid Buu. So we have a direct comparison with Gohan's Ki "up to his limit" and Goku's Ki charged up to his max. Yes, Goku isn't able to completely use his Ki in a living body but he can get close. Compared to that the Genki Dama massively boosts raw power and Gohan's Ki had lots of help in the Genki Dama to boot.Kaboom wrote:It's not necessarily just a matter of A > B, with Gohan's power compared to Boo's. For one, as others have said, the Spirit Bomb probably needed to be massively overkill to definitely finish Boo for good, and even Gohan's enormous, Goku-eclipsing power may simply not have been enough when (mostly) on its own.
For Kid Buu though it's simple. Can Gohan make a Ki Blast that rivals the Genki Dama? I'm sure no one will say Gohan is capable of that. It's too extreme. Daizenshuu refer sto the Super Genki Dama as the maximum level of power. So even *if* Gohan could generate as much power as the Genki Dama, he'd leave himself exhausted and Kid Buu would just push it back just like he did with the Genki Dama. I see no way Gohan can be stronger than Kid Buu unless you think Gohan can match the Universal Genki Dama with energy to spare.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
You're not getting it. If Vegeta puts all of his strength into a Galick Gun, that would not make it equal to a fully powered Final Flash. On top of that, a full powered Final Flash in normal state would not be equal in power to a full powered Final Flash in Super Saiyan state. It's ridiculous to act like just having someone's energy makes that attack equal in power to the person it came from. That's not how it works.MisterGuyMan wrote:The problem with this is that a minute before Goku says Gohan's and the other's Ki probably isn't enough, Goku says he can charge his Ki for a minute to kill Kid Buu. So we have a direct comparison with Gohan's Ki "up to his limit" and Goku's Ki charged up to his max.
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Okay, I'll make it simpler. Here's some hypothetical numbers to demonstrate the point.
- Pure Boo's power: 10
-- Power required to totally overcome Boo's regeneration and kill him: 30
Goku's power: 10
-- Hypothetical big amplified attack: 30
-- Completed Spirit Bomb: >30
Gohan's power: 20
-- Transfered to Spirit Bomb: 20
-- Big amplified attack: 60
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
I'm with MisterGuyMan. He's right. Gohan could not generate power to destroy Boo. Goku would have in case the stamina issue was not present. There's no need to say that the Genki-dama had to surpass Pure Boo, because it only needed to be enough, and that is the amount that Goku projected. While it may be difficult to say whether Goku is stronger than Gohan or the other way around, mainly due to the power that the former can't use, the most likely scenario is for Pure Boo to be stronger than Evil Boo, because the latter would have been defeated by Gohan, but his power was not enough for the other. We're talking about a marginal difference, because Goku and Gohan sit below Gotenks Boo, who is about as strong as twice the amount of Gotenks and Evil Boo.
In case we're using numbers, I would go with something like this:
SSJ Vegetto: 20
Gohan Boo: 14.4
Gotenks Boo: 12.8
Pure Boo: 10
Full Power SSJ3: 10
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 8
Ultimate Gohan: 8
SSJ3 Gotenks: 6.4
Evil Boo: 6.4
In case we're using numbers, I would go with something like this:
SSJ Vegetto: 20
Gohan Boo: 14.4
Gotenks Boo: 12.8
Pure Boo: 10
Full Power SSJ3: 10
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 8
Ultimate Gohan: 8
SSJ3 Gotenks: 6.4
Evil Boo: 6.4
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Vegeta can't put all his strength into a Galick Gun. The attack isn't refined enough to draw out all his strength. Final Flash is able to draw out more of his strength which is why Vegeta keeps creating better attacks. Moreover we see how OP the Genki Dama is in the ToP. It's better at using Ki than Goku is. There's no way Gohan can replicate Goku's ability to amp his Ki with SSBKKx20. Yet the Genki Dama makes the power of a handful of guys much weaker than Goku able to match Goku's power in that form. Even if 17, Frieza and Gohan are all equal to SSB Goku by themselves and we assume everyone else combined is another SSB level together, then combining all their Ki normally would make a SSBKKx4 level attack. The Genki Dama was able to combine them to make it greater than 5 times that level. So again, Gohan giving his Ki to the Genki Dama in the Buu arc is still going to be much more than what he is able to generate on his own.ZeroNeonix wrote:You're not getting it. If Vegeta puts all of his strength into a Galick Gun, that would not make it equal to a fully powered Final Flash. On top of that, a full powered Final Flash in normal state would not be equal in power to a full powered Final Flash in Super Saiyan state. It's ridiculous to act like just having someone's energy makes that attack equal in power to the person it came from. That's not how it works.
Please refer to the above example. In DBS we know that the Genki Dama is a massively OP amplified attack. It makes a handful of guys on average much weaker than Goku create an attack with over SSB Goku's power.Kaboom wrote:Gohan's regular power is more than enough to physically beat up Boo all day, but to actually finish him off, he still needs to use a big amped attack, which is massive overkill but necessary. Gohan's energy donated to the Spirit Bomb (IF it's even equivalent to his battle power, which there's plenty of reason to believe it isn't) is likewise not enough, because it's not amplified in any way like his attack would be. So it's not enough on its own, even though Gohan is much stronger than Boo across the board.
We can also see for ourselves that Gohan would lose to Kid Buu if they fought because the Genki Dama is stronger than anything Gohan can create himself and Kid Buu is able to deflect it. Here's another hypothetical question. Do you think Gohan could have deflected an attack as strong as the Genki Dama? There's no evidence he can so purely by feats, Kid Buu had a better feat than Gohan. As I pointed out earlier, the Super Genki Dama is described as the maximum level of power by Daizenshuu so it should be the strongest attack used by that point.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
The situations still akin to each other though, given how both are metonymys. The Daizenshuu info about the Super Genki Dama definitely seals the deal though. The Chou Genki Dama is indeed stronger than the regular Genki Dama due to collecting Ki instead of Genki.MisterGuyMan wrote:Your example is actually opposite of what we have here. Organic chemistry is a subset of chemistry as a whole just like Genki is a subset of Ki as a whole. If Organic chemistry as a field isn't enough then the entirety of chemistry as a field in its entirety might offer a solution. In other words, organic chemistry needs help so it calls on other parts of chemistry. That's what we have here. Genki, a subset of Ki, is not enough, therefore Goku channels Ki which is more than mere Genki.
I also cited the difference as explained in the manga between the normal Genki Dama and the Super Genki Dama. Vegeta says that bits of Genki isn't enough so they'll gather everyone's Ki "up to their limits." This is not simply a mixup of terms. It's a direct difference that is explained clearly. One has just tiny bits of Genki. They other has lots of everyone's Ki. Daizenshuu confirms this when it describes the Super Genki Dama as a subcategory of the Genki Dama in the encyclopedia:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So between the manga and Daizenshuu it's clear that the difference between the normal and Super Genki Dama is that the latter gets everyone's Ki.
Given how half of a Spirit Bomb supposed to kill Oozaru Vegeta couldn't kill base Vegeta, or a huge Spirit Bomb made of several planets's energy couldn't kill Freeza, both flesh and bone foes without regenerative abilities, i'm pretty sure Goku would collect as much Ki as he can to kill Boo, who has molecular level regeneration.It's possible but we know from DBS' ToP anime arc that the combined power of the people who donate to the Genki Dama is greater than the sum of its parts. So regardless of how much overkill the Super Genki Dama was, Goku felt that a massive ball of Ki stronger than Gohan's probably wouldn't kill Kid Buu.
Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
MisterGuyMan wrote:The normal Genki Dama gathers genki in small amounts. The Super Genki Dama gathers this but also gathers Ki that people donate willingly:
[spoiler]Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits![/spoiler]
Note that the first quote explains the difference. Goku first says gathering a little bit of Genki from everyone won't be enough against Kid Buu. That's the normal Genki Dama. Vegeta responds that they won't just do that but gather Ki from everyone up to their limits.
Actually, that's a typo. Vegeeta says "genki" in the manga. The other instances do use "ki" so it's safe to say "ki" is a general term for energy and that it has its owner's signature.
I'd just like to add that no one should use the anime to back up claims concerning the story. Either it's in the manga or it's irrelevant. The Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu are no good as well since they contain errors and 90% of that informatin is stuff collected from the anime, manga, interviews and past material anyway.
About Vgeeta's "number 1" speech:
He wasn't even stronger than Gotenks, let alone Gohan, so what weight does him calling Goku "number 1" have when he's not considering himself "number 4"? Obviously, his speech is about his rivalry with Goku and his worth as a fighter.
Also, don't forget that, and this should be considered, Toriyama was already fed up with the series by that point and wanted to end it as soon as possible. It's reasonable to think he overlooked some things in order to end the series how he wanted: as Goku being considered the strongest person in the Universe.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Do you have an actual source? Herms' translations tend to be very literal and, if anything, hyper accurate even at the expense of flow and readability. Ki has been, for a long time, used synonymously as a measure for power. That's how it's used here too.alakazam^ wrote:Actually, that's a typo. Vegeeta says "genki" in the manga. The other instances do use "ki" so it's safe to say "ki" is a general term for energy and that it has its owner's signature.
The manga contradicts itself too so there's no point in dismissing the official manga guide just because it too has errors. Toriyama said he would have used the Guide had it been around when he was making the manga and he allowed himself to be listed as the author. The guide in this case is also supported by both versions of DBS which reinforce the Kid Buu andalakazam^ wrote:I'd just like to add that no one should use the anime to back up claims concerning the story. Either it's in the manga or it's irrelevant. The Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu are no good as well since they contain errors and 90% of that informatin is stuff collected from the anime, manga, interviews and past material anyway.
Vegeta doesn't need to be number 2 to admit that Goku is number one. This quote was restated in DBS decades after the manga's release. You would think that it they wanted to clarify the situation, they would have done so in the 20 years or so after the manga's release and the sequel series. Instead Daizenshuu reinforces the Kid Buu and Goku narrative then both versions of DBS do the same:alakazam^ wrote:About Vgeeta's "number 1" speech:
He wasn't even stronger than Gotenks, let alone Gohan, so what weight does him calling Goku "number 1" have when he's not considering himself "number 4"? Obviously, his speech is about his rivalry with Goku and his worth as a fighter.
Also, don't forget that, and this should be considered, Toriyama was already fed up with the series by that point and wanted to end it as soon as possible. It's reasonable to think he overlooked some things in order to end the series how he wanted: as Goku being considered the strongest person in the Universe.
At what point should we just admit that however akward the storytelling was in Buu saga, that in the end, the intent, whether designed from the beginning or not, was to make Kid Buu much stronger than all the good guys?
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?
Genki and ki are used interchangeably with regard to the Genki Dama multiple times throughout the franchise, and not just in regards to the Genki Dama used by Goku to defeat Buu. So them referring to it as "ki" here and there during that portion of the Buu arc by no means indicates that they're using anything outside of genki still. Therefore, they're still only drawing upon the limits of everyone's genki, not the limits of their total ki at all. The difference between the regular Genki Dama and the one used to defeat Buu (why would it not have a different name then if it draws on more than genki anyway?) is just that it's not bits of genki passively donated, but an active donation of all genki they can spare.MisterGuyMan wrote:The problem with this is that a minute before Goku says Gohan's and the other's Ki probably isn't enough, Goku says he can charge his Ki for a minute to kill Kid Buu. So we have a direct comparison with Gohan's Ki "up to his limit" and Goku's Ki charged up to his max. Yes, Goku isn't able to completely use his Ki in a living body but he can get close. Compared to that the Genki Dama massively boosts raw power and Gohan's Ki had lots of help in the Genki Dama to boot.Kaboom wrote:It's not necessarily just a matter of A > B, with Gohan's power compared to Boo's. For one, as others have said, the Spirit Bomb probably needed to be massively overkill to definitely finish Boo for good, and even Gohan's enormous, Goku-eclipsing power may simply not have been enough when (mostly) on its own.
For Kid Buu though it's simple. Can Gohan make a Ki Blast that rivals the Genki Dama? I'm sure no one will say Gohan is capable of that. It's too extreme. Daizenshuu refer sto the Super Genki Dama as the maximum level of power. So even *if* Gohan could generate as much power as the Genki Dama, he'd leave himself exhausted and Kid Buu would just push it back just like he did with the Genki Dama. I see no way Gohan can be stronger than Kid Buu unless you think Gohan can match the Universal Genki Dama with energy to spare.
As for your evidence from Super, there's a fair amount of issues with it. One, Vegeta says that Goku is obviously now number one because he defeated Buu, ignoring the very obvious fact that Goku's own strength wasn't a real factor in defeating Buu at all. Two, he sees himself as #2, when he was in no way #2 during the Buu arc whatsoever. Unless he's intentionally excluding Gohan and Gotenks (and he very well might be, since they're not full-blooded Saiyans), there's no way he can be #2 among the four of them.
Additionally, the Dende reference you posted from the manga is pointless, since it can be easily interpreted (especially given that it's interpreted this way many times over in the manga, anime, and guidebooks) as referring to Buu as a whole, and not the specific form of Buu. So, Dende's comment is simply that Buu, in general, was the strongest enemy that Goku had ever faced, not that Pure Buu specifically was the strongest.