Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

[MisterGuyMan]

When going by the material, ki, genki, and power, when referring to the Genki Dama, only refers to genki. If there was any indication that it was used for ki at all, it'd be one thing, but given all the past examples, they're all in reference to genki and genki only.

You can't have it both ways. If you cite the material using Genki and Ki interchangeably then it's fair game to say the material is fine using those terms interchangeably.

Because there is one. It's clearly showing the removal of an absorption which, if your course of events were accurate, would result in Buu gaining a permanent increase. That'd be like citing a "fact" that you've never been in trouble with the law, and then you used a picture of you being given a speeding ticket to illustrate the fact. It's a blatant contradiction.

It shows *an* absorption as in a singular absorption of one thing being freed. The quote is saying *multiple* absorptions lost weakened Buu. So we need multple absorptions. How many absorptions are in the picture? Just one. We need multiple.

The problem with that reasoning is that Goku doesn't physically feel any weaker, so how much ki he actually has isn't indicative of what he feels he has. He clearly feels as strong inside as he does out (otherwise there's no reason for him to have been shocked by his inability to blow a hole in Buu), and thus his comparison would, at least to him, still feel as if it's his normal strength vs. Buu's strength.

Goku can be surprised at the full extent of how much power loss without being completely ignorant that he lost power at all. It's like asking a sick person if he can get up. He says he can but then fails. He can know he lost power without knowing the full extend of it. Moreover if he wasn't aware that he lost power then how are we supposed to trust any power comparisons he makes with himself and Buu?

And again, given that the incomplete Genki Dama is only stronger than Gohan's genki, and not his total ki, that part is still moot. He didn't donate the entirety of his ki.

This is simply not true. The ToP illustrates for us clearly that the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to is inherently more powerful that Gohan's full power. I keep pointing this out and you never address this point.

Super doesn't prove that the incomplete Genki Dama was stronger than Gohan's full power. Gohan didn't contribute his full power to the Genki Dama, just his genki, and it was only that which was indicated to not be enough to defeat Buu.

This makes no sense. Why would Gohan not take the threat of Kid Buu seriously? He loves and respects his father. He wants to save the world. He's shown to be clearly enthusiastic about the plan. But he decides to half ass his participation because.... why exactly? Moreover how does Super *not* prove that Gohan donating to the Genki Dama makes it stronger than Gohan himself? 8 people weaker than SSBKKx20 Goku are able to make something much stronger than that super powered up version of Goku.

It's also you making assumptions on what Enma can and cannot do. Do you think Baba has the capacity to get Gohan to Kaioushin's planet? Do you think Kibitoshin or Goku had the energy left to get Gohan to Kaioushin's, especially when it's even directly stated that Kibitoshin had no energy left to teleport, and Goku was likewise too worn out.

And don't forget, Goku himself felt that Vegeta's plan was for Gohan and Gotenks to come in and fight, and if they were as weak as you're proposing, they should have been functionally worthless. Not even fight alongside them or anything, but just fight, period, meaning they're the ones doing all the combating. In his mind, he had to have seen that as some degree of a viable option if it was what he anticipated Vegeta's plan to be.

I don't actually have to assume anything because Goku's statement and Daizenshuu's statement don't leave any margin for error. It's possible Yemma might bring back Gohan. It's possible Gohan can be brought back by wishes, teleported into the fight and it's possible for any number of ways for Gohan to fight Kid Buu. Heck, it's even possible that Buu just decides to take a nap at literally any point in time after he wins in the Kaio Shin realm. This gives everyone time to revive Gohan and do whatever they want. It's not possible though, according to Goku and Daizenshuu, that any of these possibilities would work.

Or Goku is talking about their contributions in general. Just because one of his contributions involved the Genki Dama's donations doesn't undermind that they wouldn't have even had the opportunity to create one if it hadn't been for Mr. Satan causing Mr. Buu to be expelled, giving them another combatant on the field that was able to stall Buu long enough.

His being there and causing Mr. Buu's expulsion is easily as major, if not moreso, than the Genki Dama donation.

I cited multiple sources pointing out again and again how Satan's appeal to the Earthlings as pivotal to his role in saving the universe. That's not my opinion. That's the official narrative. Conversely do you have any official source outlining how important his role in getting Fat Buu spit out was supposed to be?

Goku thought that Vegeta's plan involved Gohan being there, so again, he thought it was a viable plan. It was Vegeta's plan which essentially removed Gohan from being a viable alternative. There's no indication that Baba could get Gohan to Kaioushin Kai, Kibitoshin was too drained to be able to teleport, and Goku was in a similarly drained situation (hence the use of the third Dragon Ball wish).

A worse case scenario, in his mind, by his own words, is him and Vegeta fighting again. Thus he clearly sees there being better alternatives, which readily could include Gohan and Gotenks fighting.

And likewise, Goku's comment is about if Buu appeared again because they allowed Mr. Buu to live, not the circumstances that would have potentially occurred if Buu had successfully defeated them on Kaioushin Kai, which is what I was referring to.

Goku never says it's a viable plan. He's just guessing. No one ever, and we're talking about a literal universe of people and every knowledgeable fighter in DB history at this time, bothered to point out that Gohan would have easily beat Kid Buu and taking a massive risk with the Genki Dama was unneeded. King Kai, Piccolo, Gohan himself, Goku Vegeta, Kaio Shin and Old Kaio were all in communication with each other. Shin, Old Kaio, Piccolo and King Kai all have a history of pointing out whenever they feel that Goku is doing something stupid. For your narrative to work, Gohan has to somehow not care enough to give all his energy to the Genki Dama because he's apparently ambivalent about saving the universe and none of the people that are knowledgeable about combat actually bothered to point out how bad the current plan was especially when they had a supposed guaranteed win button.

I'm creating no contradictions. I'm giving you the simplest explanation given all the observations provided to us in the story. Mr. Buu is the one that created the race of Buu-like individuals, and he no longer had any of Pure Buu's soul in him once he expelled the Pure Evil Buu (in the same way that Daimao and Kami do not share the same souls). The soul that was reincarnated into Uub appeared first as the Pure Evil Buu, and through absorptions and removal of absorptions became Evil Buu, then all his variations, and eventually Pure Buu. That's how that line of his soul went before the reincarnation.

The simplest explanation requires the lease assumptions. Super Buu ceased to exist and Kid Buu therefore was manifested from the Buu material that was left since he is literally called the Pure Buu.

I point these excerpts out again which address this event:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
If Super Buu ceased to exist then Super Buu cannot understand Goku's feelings. This Buu was reincarnated and Goku waits for him because he's the strongest. You're assuming that Super Buu ceased to exist but he still... existed somehow. That's not only an unsupported assumption, it's a pretty big contradiction.

I also found this quote which should end the debate:
[spoiler]Goku: “…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well all on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waitin'…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”[/spoiler]
So Goku clearly identifies the Buu he's talking to as one that fought all on his own. This eliminates Super Buu who was absorbing people left and right. Kid Buu does absorb the Kaio Shin earlier on but Goku is not aware of this.

[Koitsukai]

It would literally make no sense, it would render the past 30, 50 episodes useless. The final battle was so interesting because it wasn't such a high power level, it was just bad timming, if they could only saved the hybrids but no, they had a threat that wasn't that big of a deal compared to what they had endured but Goku and Vegeta just weren't the right fighters to deal with it, and dealt with it anyway. Also Kid Buu was destruction itself, had no motivation, something they never encountered before because Raditz could have destroyed the Earth at the very moment he sensed Goku and Piccolo coming to him. His blank mind was more dangerous than his power level, introducing another type of threat.

[alakazam^]

This is simply not true. The ToP illustrates for us clearly that the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to is inherently more powerful that Gohan's full power. I keep pointing this out and you never address this point.

If you want to use Super, you have to accept Goku and Boo being the strongest is just hype talk since Beers and Whis were always around.

The simplest explanation requires the lease assumptions. Super Buu ceased to exist and Kid Buu therefore was manifested from the Buu material that was left since he is literally called the Pure Buu.

I also found this quote which should end the debate:
[spoiler]Goku: “…You’re amazin’. You hung in there really well all on your own…This time, be reborn as a good guy…I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waitin'…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”[/spoiler]
So Goku clearly identifies the Buu he's talking to as one that fought all on his own. This eliminates Super Buu who was absorbing people left and right. Kid Buu does absorb the Kaio Shin earlier on but Goku is not aware of this.

This doesn't prove pure Boo is a different entity from evil Boo. If you don't consider Piccolo, Gotenks and Gohan Boo as different Boos, why would evil Boo be different from pure Boo since he's also an absorbed Boo? Just consider that Boo got factory reseted and that all the absorptions were add-ons. This explains how evil Boo knew he'd stop being himself since he's the result of a Boo base plus absorptions.

Pure Boo = base
Good and evil Boo = Base + add-ons. Going by evil Boo's statement, they might have memories of pure Boo or, at least, the notion there's something "underneath".
Reverting to pure Boo = Factory reset. Add-ons don't exist anymore but he is still aware of what he experienced when he had them, proved by the fact he went after Goku and Vegeeta. Now, he can fight "on his own".

Besides, you still consider Oob as Boo, even though his soul got cleansed, so why don't you consider evil Boo as pure Boo as well?

[Darkprince410]

You can't have it both ways. If you cite the material using Genki and Ki interchangeably then it's fair game to say the material is fine using those terms interchangeably.

We only have material citing it going one way, not the other way around.

It shows *an* absorption as in a singular absorption of one thing being freed. The quote is saying *multiple* absorptions lost weakened Buu. So we need multple absorptions. How many absorptions are in the picture? Just one. We need multiple.

The quote simply says absorptions being removed weaken Buu. No indication that some do and some don't. Taken at face value, having absorptions makes Buu stronger, and removing them makes him weaker. Thus, having a picture illustrating an absorption removal that doesn't make him weaker (by your reasoning) would be contradictory.

Goku can be surprised at the full extent of how much power loss without being completely ignorant that he lost power at all. It's like asking a sick person if he can get up. He says he can but then fails. He can know he lost power without knowing the full extend of it. Moreover if he wasn't aware that he lost power then how are we supposed to trust any power comparisons he makes with himself and Buu?

Given he makes no note or suggestion that he's weaker or feels weaker, that seems unlikely. Rather, it's simpler that he doesn't know that his power has taken any kind of hit (that even if he is weaker, he doesn't feel it), and thus his comparison between him and Evil Buu is just as valid inside as it is outside.

This is simply not true. The ToP illustrates for us clearly that the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to is inherently more powerful that Gohan's full power. I keep pointing this out and you never address this point.

Goku specifically asks for genki during that Genki Dama, so even there, what is produced and collected is just genki. Does it make sense? No, but the fact remains that it's just genki.

This makes no sense. Why would Gohan not take the threat of Kid Buu seriously? He loves and respects his father. He wants to save the world. He's shown to be clearly enthusiastic about the plan. But he decides to half ass his participation because.... why exactly? Moreover how does Super *not* prove that Gohan donating to the Genki Dama makes it stronger than Gohan himself? 8 people weaker than SSBKKx20 Goku are able to make something much stronger than that super powered up version of Goku.

He didn't half ass his participation. He gave all he could of the one thing that Goku was collecting, his genki. The remainder of his ki isn't donated, simple as that.

I cited multiple sources pointing out again and again how Satan's appeal to the Earthlings as pivotal to his role in saving the universe. That's not my opinion. That's the official narrative. Conversely do you have any official source outlining how important his role in getting Fat Buu spit out was supposed to be?

We don't need an official source outlining it, because it's painfully obvious as to how important it was. What would have happened if Mr. Satan hadn't caused Mr. Buu to be spit out? Vegeta was dead weight at this point and Goku was shown to not be able to hold Super Saiyan 3, so both would have been killed and Vegeta would cease to exist entirely. No Mr. Satan = No Mr. Buu = no stalling to even come up with and use the Genki Dama in the first place. Buu being there gave them the time to even come up with other ideas to begin with.

Goku never says it's a viable plan. He's just guessing. No one ever, and we're talking about a literal universe of people and every knowledgeable fighter in DB history at this time, bothered to point out that Gohan would have easily beat Kid Buu and taking a massive risk with the Genki Dama was unneeded. King Kai, Piccolo, Gohan himself, Goku Vegeta, Kaio Shin and Old Kaio were all in communication with each other. Shin, Old Kaio, Piccolo and King Kai all have a history of pointing out whenever they feel that Goku is doing something stupid. For your narrative to work, Gohan has to somehow not care enough to give all his energy to the Genki Dama because he's apparently ambivalent about saving the universe and none of the people that are knowledgeable about combat actually bothered to point out how bad the current plan was especially when they had a supposed guaranteed win button.

By that reasoning, no one saying that the idea of using Gohan (and remember, by your statements, Rou Kaioushin, Kaioushin, and North Kaiou were listening in) was a bad idea means it was a good idea. Gohan gave all the power that he could, but given that the Genki Dama only takes an individual's genki and not their entire ki, Gohan can donate all he has and it still be just a portion of what he himself is capable of entirely.

The simplest explanation requires the lease assumptions. Super Buu ceased to exist and Kid Buu therefore was manifested from the Buu material that was left since he is literally called the Pure Buu.

And the least assumptions still allow for it to be the same Buu. Evil Buu ceased to exist, but Buu went on. That version of him is the only version that disappeared.

The Daizenshuu entry you use is simply Goku acknowledging Buu in general.

To wrap things up, I want you to explain this simple formula, which is clearly established as the course of events that happen within the story.

Pure Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Evil Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu

By this simple formula, Pure Buu should be no stronger than the Pure Evil Buu. There's no random power up on Evil Buu's part to suggest or allow Pure Buu to be stronger, and Mr. Buu didn't leave any of himself inside Pure Buu to make him stronger either.

Simplest and most straightforward way of looking at things, the two are the same Buu and physically the same strength, thus weaker than Evil Buu.

[Desassina]

I mean, let's look at things this way: Akira Toriyama is not as contrarian as we're led to believe. A single character's line of forms resembling each other gets bigger, better, more colorful and monstrous. Freeza grew tall and monster like in his suppression skin. He got rid of that and grew bigger again with 100% power. Cell became better and more human like due to his goal being perfection and he used the equivalent of the grades in his perfect form against Trunks and Gohan. Majin Boo became tall and well defined from a scrawny and fat build, bulked up to gain more power, and he's somehow the strongest at his smallest? Character design is supposed to be at its simplest in the Boo saga, but it's not without the details, to be picked at our own pleasure. His head tentacle got bigger with the power of his absorptions, his face more fully featured with every intelligent being, his hands fully outlined with fingers for every human absorbed, which means that even when you decide to go for more complex hints, the reality remains equal to the simplest one.

[MisterGuyMan]

We only have material citing it going one way, not the other way around.

There's no difference if Goku uses the terms Genki, power and Ki interchangeably with regards to the Genki Dama. I could also cite how Goku has a skill where he can sense Ki. He doesn't have a skill where he can sense Genki.

The quote simply says absorptions being removed weaken Buu. No indication that some do and some don't. Taken at face value, having absorptions makes Buu stronger, and removing them makes him weaker. Thus, having a picture illustrating an absorption removal that doesn't make him weaker (by your reasoning) would be contradictory.

I disagree with what you think "face value" means. The picture is referring to a specific set of absorptions that weakened Buu. We know for a fact that not all aborptions strengthen Buu since it's confirmed Dai Kaio Shin's absorption weakened Buu.

Given he makes no note or suggestion that he's weaker or feels weaker, that seems unlikely. Rather, it's simpler that he doesn't know that his power has taken any kind of hit (that even if he is weaker, he doesn't feel it), and thus his comparison between him and Evil Buu is just as valid inside as it is outside.

That's an assumption that contradicts Goku's later statements when he says his full power can kill Kid Buu and Gohan's can't. I cite again how the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to must be stronger than Gohan himself as shown in the ToP. Later statements trump earlier statements.

Goku specifically asks for genki during that Genki Dama, so even there, what is produced and collected is just genki. Does it make sense? No, but the fact remains that it's just genki.

You're evading the point of the message you quoted. I said the following:
"he ToP illustrates for us clearly that the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to is inherently more powerful that Gohan's full power."
Collecting Genki or Ki or whatever is completely irrelevant. The important part is that the incomplete Genki Dama, which cannot kill Kid Buu, is stronger than anything Gohan can manage by himself.

He didn't half ass his participation. He gave all he could of the one thing that Goku was collecting, his genki. The remainder of his ki isn't donated, simple as that.

You keep evading the issue. In the ToP, 8 people weaker than SSB managed to gather more raw power than twenty times SSB. So if Gohan really did gonate as much as he could have, you have no argument as to why the incomplete Genki Dama wouldn't be stronger than Gohan's full raw power.

Here's a simple illustration:
ToP Saga: Super Genki Dama with the power of 8 people weaker than SSB > SSBKKx20 > 8 people weaker than SSB
Buu Saga: Super Genki Dama > Full Power Goku > Genki Dama with just Gohan and friends' power > Gohan

There's no getting around it. Goku is able to gather more energy than the incomplete Genki Dama and the Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan.

We don't need an official source outlining it, because it's painfully obvious as to how important it was. What would have happened if Mr. Satan hadn't caused Mr. Buu to be spit out? Vegeta was dead weight at this point and Goku was shown to not be able to hold Super Saiyan 3, so both would have been killed and Vegeta would cease to exist entirely. No Mr. Satan = No Mr. Buu = no stalling to even come up with and use the Genki Dama in the first place. Buu being there gave them the time to even come up with other ideas to begin with.

You have no authority to tell me what would have happened. If I believed that Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu then I can claim Yemma brings back Gohan, Kid Buu falls asleep, they wish Gohan back to life or any other possible scenario. None of those require Fat Buu at all. If it was Genki Dama or bust though then nothing else matters but the Genki Dama and Satan's Appeal is thus given the due importance it's always given in official materials.

This is where I point out again how even the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan's full power. There's no getting around this inconvenient fact honestly. You keep ignoring it but it won't go away.

By that reasoning, no one saying that the idea of using Gohan (and remember, by your statements, Rou Kaioushin, Kaioushin, and North Kaiou were listening in) was a bad idea means it was a good idea. Gohan gave all the power that he could, but given that the Genki Dama only takes an individual's genki and not their entire ki, Gohan can donate all he has and it still be just a portion of what he himself is capable of entirely.

This is based on a wrong premise. In the ToP 8 people that are weaker than Goku are able to create more raw power than 20 Gokus. So since you agree that Gohan gave his all, then the incomplete Genki Dama must have been stronger than Gohan's full power. I also don't understand your other point. If no one said it was a bad idea, that doesn't mean it's a good idea. That's an absence of evidence fallacy.

And the least assumptions still allow for it to be the same Buu. Evil Buu ceased to exist, but Buu went on. That version of him is the only version that disappeared.

The Daizenshuu entry you use is simply Goku acknowledging Buu in general.

To wrap things up, I want you to explain this simple formula, which is clearly established as the course of events that happen within the story.

Pure Evil Buu + Mr. Buu = Evil Buu - Mr. Buu = Pure Buu

By this simple formula, Pure Buu should be no stronger than the Pure Evil Buu. There's no random power up on Evil Buu's part to suggest or allow Pure Buu to be stronger, and Mr. Buu didn't leave any of himself inside Pure Buu to make him stronger either.

Simplest and most straightforward way of looking at things, the two are the same Buu and physically the same strength, thus weaker than Evil Buu.

You're wrong though. Goku is acknowledging one specific Buu that "hung in there really well all on [his] own". He's not talking about Super Buu that relied on absorbing people and ceased to exist.

hung in there =/= cease to exist
all on your own =/= absorbing people

Kid Buu = Hung in there all on your own
Super Buu = needed others and then ceased to exist

[Darkprince410]

There's no difference if Goku uses the terms Genki, power and Ki interchangeably with regards to the Genki Dama. I could also cite how Goku has a skill where he can sense Ki. He doesn't have a skill where he can sense Genki.

He clearly has the ability to sense individual components that make up ki, given he readily establishes he can detect the lack of seiki within Spopovitch during his fight with Videl. With the Genki Dama, all evidence we have points to those three terms being used to represent genki. Nothing is available showing it's ever used for ki in general when in reference to the Genki Dama.

I disagree with what you think "face value" means. The picture is referring to a specific set of absorptions that weakened Buu. We know for a fact that not all aborptions strengthen Buu since it's confirmed Dai Kaio Shin's absorption weakened Buu.

And the picture is in the process of showing one of those absorptions being removed. So if the fact is saying that Buu is weakened through the removal of absorptions and it's showing an absorption being removed, then 1 + 1 = 2, the removal of Mr. Buu weakened Buu in general.

That's an assumption that contradicts Goku's later statements when he says his full power can kill Kid Buu and Gohan's can't. I cite again how the Genki Dama that Gohan donates to must be stronger than Gohan himself as shown in the ToP. Later statements trump earlier statements.

Between this and your other comments regarding the Genki Dama during the ToP, did it ever occur to you that the Genki Dama might be a Toei-ism that ends up not adhering to the rules? You and I both know that when Toei writes their own story (as seen with the movies, filler, etc), they end up more often than not ignoring pre-set or known rules/facts in place of just doing what they want. Given everything told to us up to before Super, there is nothing said or even implied that Goku has the ability to manipulate or augment the genki donated to boost its power beyond the amount that's donated (i.e. he can't take a donation of 1 unit and augment it to 10 units). Nor is there anything said or suggested to us that someone can give more genki than they have total ki in their body.

Until we see Toyotaro's version of events, the Genki Dama may fall under the same issue of Goku being able to single-handedly overpower merged Zamasu's ki attack and even break his halo, when beforehand he had shown no indication of being any degree stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black on his own, an individual that Zamasu's power dwarfed considerably. Now, I know you'll probably say that it doesn't matter and "fact is fact", but we need to analyze what is logical and what might be something that Toei added that Toriyama didn't come up with.

You have no authority to tell me what would have happened. If I believed that Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu then I can claim Yemma brings back Gohan, Kid Buu falls asleep, they wish Gohan back to life or any other possible scenario. None of those require Fat Buu at all. If it was Genki Dama or bust though then nothing else matters but the Genki Dama and Satan's Appeal is thus given the due importance it's always given in official materials.

Except that I'm just going by what is readily set up to happen based on the events as they did happen. Your scenario doesn't. Unless you believe that Goku would have miraculously been able to power back up to full strength and defeat Buu, but suddenly lost that ability when Mr. Buu popped out.

You're wrong though. Goku is acknowledging one specific Buu that "hung in there really well all on [his] own". He's not talking about Super Buu that relied on absorbing people and ceased to exist.

It's still the same Buu though. He's acknowledging the particular form that he fought right then and there, but it's still the same Buu and still the overall strongest enemy they've ever faced (which is all that the DBS manga and such have also indicated).

Ceased to exist = that version of him did.

Likewise, if you want to use Toei's stories as evidence for your case (i.e. the ToP Genki Dama), then I'll point to Uubuu in GT. Fundamentally the same character as Evil Buu (Uub being the equivalent of Pure Buu, and Mr. Buu is Mr. Buu). Combine the two and the end result is an immense power up, with Mr. Buu even readily knowing that them being together would make Uub stronger. How would he know that for a fact unless the last time they were together, they were stronger than when they were split?

[MisterGuyMan]

He clearly has the ability to sense individual components that make up ki, given he readily establishes he can detect the lack of seiki within Spopovitch during his fight with Videl. With the Genki Dama, all evidence we have points to those three terms being used to represent genki. Nothing is available showing it's ever used for ki in general when in reference to the Genki Dama.

Goku uses Ki, Power and Genki interchangeably. He never bothers to differentiate between those terms so if you want to say he only ever means Genki, that's your statement, not Goku's. We can actually just compare his usage. Ki is comprised of Genki, Mind and Courage. Goku can sense Ki and Genki. He cannot sense Mind or Courage. Goku equates Power and Ki throughout the series. He never equates Mind and Courage to Ki or power. So like I said before, if Goku uses them interchangeably and never differentiates them then you can't complain if I do the same when I cite him.

And the picture is in the process of showing one of those absorptions being removed. So if the fact is saying that Buu is weakened through the removal of absorptions and it's showing an absorption being removed, then 1 + 1 = 2, the removal of Mr. Buu weakened Buu in general.

It's showing one singular absorption being removed. The caption is referring to multiple absorptions. You may dislike this interpretation but you cann't deny that it's possible to interpret this entry in a way that avoids making Kid Buu weaker by removing Fat Buu. You're trying to argue that what you believe happened is actually stated but it's not. The words simply aren't there. Compare that with how we have direct statements saying that this one instance actually caused his Ki to spike.

You're also ignoring lots of nuance too. The picture is also showing the result of multiple absorptions being removed, it's showing the weakened form of Super Buu and it's showing the final removal that will complete the entire process. So, no, there's no way to argue just on that picture that that one absorption being freed weakened Buu. It's an ongoing process. It's like saying renovating your house increases its value and then seeing a picture of demolition day where they rip down walls and then concluding that this must mean demolishing walls with sledgehammers adds value to your house. The same applies here. The entry is about a process consisting of multiple absorptions not just one.

Between this and your other comments regarding the Genki Dama during the ToP, did it ever occur to you that the Genki Dama might be a Toei-ism that ends up not adhering to the rules? You and I both know that when Toei writes their own story (as seen with the movies, filler, etc), they end up more often than not ignoring pre-set or known rules/facts in place of just doing what they want. Given everything told to us up to before Super, there is nothing said or even implied that Goku has the ability to manipulate or augment the genki donated to boost its power beyond the amount that's donated (i.e. he can't take a donation of 1 unit and augment it to 10 units). Nor is there anything said or suggested to us that someone can give more genki than they have total ki in their body.

Until we see Toyotaro's version of events, the Genki Dama may fall under the same issue of Goku being able to single-handedly overpower merged Zamasu's ki attack and even break his halo, when beforehand he had shown no indication of being any degree stronger than Super Saiyan Rose Black on his own, an individual that Zamasu's power dwarfed considerably. Now, I know you'll probably say that it doesn't matter and "fact is fact", but we need to analyze what is logical and what might be something that Toei added that Toriyama didn't come up with.

The broad strokes of the manga and anime remain generally the same. Goku powered up against Merged Zamasu in both the anime and manga of DBS and how it happened doesn't change the fact that Goku is more powerful that the next tier down which would be Vegeta. That's all we need here, the broad strokes. The outline for what will happen in the ToP manga very likely won't change and you know that as well as I do. Gohan is weaker than Goku. Goku will prove weaker than Jiren. The Genki Dama will then be stronger than Goku. I doubt even you would believe that the basic outline there will change.

On principle it also makes no sense to just dismiss the DBS anime version just because you want more evidence. It's a legitimate and author recognized continuation of the original work. Toriyama has confirmed he's involved with the anime because he has more time as compared to the original manga run. Evidence is evidence and ignoring existing evidence just because you hope other evidence might appear to contradict it is confirmation bias.

Except that I'm just going by what is readily set up to happen based on the events as they did happen. Your scenario doesn't. Unless you believe that Goku would have miraculously been able to power back up to full strength and defeat Buu, but suddenly lost that ability when Mr. Buu popped out.

You can't insist your version of alternate events are any more legitimate than any other version of alternate events. It's a double standard. There's a long list of woulda/coulda/shoulda scenarios but the only thing we know for certain is that Satan's appeal was the only thing stopping the extinction of the world. I cited multiple sources saying exactly that. Your assertion that Gohan would be lost in a long line of the dead is not stated anywhere. Your assertion that Satan saved the day Satan's role as savior hinged on getting Fat Buu spit out is not repeated anywhere. Why are my citations from Daizenshuu just dismissed but if you make a claim about a series of events that never happened I'm supposed to accept it as fact?

It's still the same Buu though. He's acknowledging the particular form that he fought right then and there, but it's still the same Buu and still the overall strongest enemy they've ever faced (which is all that the DBS manga and such have also indicated).

Ceased to exist = that version of him did.

Likewise, if you want to use Toei's stories as evidence for your case (i.e. the ToP Genki Dama), then I'll point to Uubuu in GT. Fundamentally the same character as Evil Buu (Uub being the equivalent of Pure Buu, and Mr. Buu is Mr. Buu). Combine the two and the end result is an immense power up, with Mr. Buu even readily knowing that them being together would make Uub stronger. How would he know that for a fact unless the last time they were together, they were stronger than when they were split?

You keep explaining what *you* think he meant. I'm citing what *Goku himself* says. When you say Goku is talking about other versions of Buu that ceased to exist, you have nothing to back this assertion up except your own opinion. Conversely when I say Goku is talking specifically about Kid Buu, I cite Super Buu's own statement that he ceased to exist then I also cite Goku's own words. Goku is talking in second person to Kid Buu. Goku says to Buu that *YOU* hung in there and that *YOU* fought all by yourself. The person Goku is talking to has two unique characteristics. The person Goku is talking to both 'hung in there' and did so 'on his own.' Neither of those two things apply to Super Buu so Goku cannot be referring to Super Buu. You can say it's the same Buu all you want but that's not what Goku is talking about. What is stated in the manga here and backed up by Daizenshuu trumps what you think Buu here should refer to.

As for the second argument, Uubuu was never part of Toriyama's recognized continuity to his work and even as far back as BoG went out of its way to retcon GT's entire possibility of even existing.

[Tectorman]

The broad strokes of the manga and anime remain generally the same. Goku powered up against Merged Zamasu in both the anime and manga of DBS and how it happened doesn't change the fact that Goku is more powerful that the next tier down which would be Vegeta. That's all we need here, the broad strokes. The outline for what will happen in the ToP manga very likely won't change and you know that as well as I do. Gohan is weaker than Goku. Goku will prove weaker than Jiren. The Genki Dama will then be stronger than Goku. I doubt even you would believe that the basic outline there will change.

Arguably though, we've already had Toyotaro's take on the Super Genki Dama in the ToP. The broad strokes of the anime are: Goku fights Jiren at his best (SSBKKx20), Goku tries the Super Genki Dama, Goku uses the incomplete Ultra Instinct, Hit tries to defeat Jiren. So far in the manga, we have: Goku fights Jiren at his best (mastered SSB), Goku decides not to fight Jiren with Hit, citing a wall he still intends to push through (which for all we know, is the manga's acknowledgment of the UI to this point), and Hit tries to defeat Jiren. Ergo, Toyotaro has arguably already said that the Super Genki Dama is not a part of the broad strokes that the anime and manga are derived from. Instead, the Super Genki Dama is an anime-ism, just like Goku using Beerus's Hakai in the manga is unique to that depiction.

[Darkprince410]

Goku uses Ki, Power and Genki interchangeably. He never bothers to differentiate between those terms so if you want to say he only ever means Genki, that's your statement, not Goku's. We can actually just compare his usage. Ki is comprised of Genki, Mind and Courage. Goku can sense Ki and Genki. He cannot sense Mind or Courage. Goku equates Power and Ki throughout the series. He never equates Mind and Courage to Ki or power. So like I said before, if Goku uses them interchangeably and never differentiates them then you can't complain if I do the same when I cite him.

For starters, ki is comprised of a lot more than just those three elements. Toriyama's wording in the SEG just cited those as examples of some of the elements that make it up. Beside that though, you're making the assumption that he can't sense mind or courage. We already know he's capable of sensing other elements, as seen with the earlier mentioned seiki, so why not those too?

Everything we've seen, up to the Buu arc, has them using ki and power as alternatives for genki when it came to the Genki Dama. Never any other way around. As such, while any reference to ki or power when speaking of the Genki Dama during the Buu arc could be in reference to genki (and it makes the most sense this way), there's nothing supporting the idea of any use of the term genki to be referring to ki.

You're also ignoring lots of nuance too. The picture is also showing the result of multiple absorptions being removed, it's showing the weakened form of Super Buu and it's showing the final removal that will complete the entire process. So, no, there's no way to argue just on that picture that that one absorption being freed weakened Buu. It's an ongoing process. It's like saying renovating your house increases its value and then seeing a picture of demolition day where they rip down walls and then concluding that this must mean demolishing walls with sledgehammers adds value to your house. The same applies here. The entry is about a process consisting of multiple absorptions not just one.

Why look at or for nuances when the simpler way of looking at it is clear as can be, especially when that clear way is supported by so much information? Absorption removal makes Buu weaker and we see the removal of the absorption that makes Evil Buu who he is. Obviously successful removal of that will make Buu weaker. That's the most straightforward way that can be taken, and it fits the facts provided.

The broad strokes of the manga and anime remain generally the same. Goku powered up against Merged Zamasu in both the anime and manga of DBS and how it happened doesn't change the fact that Goku is more powerful that the next tier down which would be Vegeta. That's all we need here, the broad strokes. The outline for what will happen in the ToP manga very likely won't change and you know that as well as I do. Gohan is weaker than Goku. Goku will prove weaker than Jiren. The Genki Dama will then be stronger than Goku. I doubt even you would believe that the basic outline there will change.

We've seen several times before between the anime and manga that the specifics of fights change and aren't clear cut between one or the other. Goku's total lack of Kaiou-ken in conjunction with Blue is a major point if you ask me, as well as several other deviations between them. As it stands, we don't even know if there will be a Genki Dama in the manga, which is why I bring it up. If it's an anime only invention, then it's something that Toei potentially created themselves, and thus we have to question if such a thing follows the actual rules of the Genki Dama or not.

On principle it also makes no sense to just dismiss the DBS anime version just because you want more evidence. It's a legitimate and author recognized continuation of the original work. Toriyama has confirmed he's involved with the anime because he has more time as compared to the original manga run. Evidence is evidence and ignoring existing evidence just because you hope other evidence might appear to contradict it is confirmation bias.

I want actual evidence though, not "evidence" that is open to interpretation and requires alternate and more convoluted views on how events transpired to make them work. Your entire argument, as of late, has revolved around the ToP Genki Dama as support for your view on the Buu arc Genki Dama. My reasoning for questioning it then is that if it is something that Toriyama himself didn't come up with, and instead was a Toei-ism that doesn't abide by the rules of the Genki Dama, then it invalidates it as evidence.

You can't insist your version of alternate events are any more legitimate than any other version of alternate events. It's a double standard. There's a long list of woulda/coulda/shoulda scenarios but the only thing we know for certain is that Satan's appeal was the only thing stopping the extinction of the world. I cited multiple sources saying exactly that. Your assertion that Gohan would be lost in a long line of the dead is not stated anywhere. Your assertion that Satan saved the day Satan's role as savior hinged on getting Fat Buu spit out is not repeated anywhere. Why are my citations from Daizenshuu just dismissed but if you make a claim about a series of events that never happened I'm supposed to accept it as fact?

I've already explained this before. Mr. Satan's contribution to the Genki Dama was considerable, and I'm not denying that, but the Daizenshuu's entries can only be taken based on what is shown. By the time that Mr. Satan made his contribution, Gohan was effectively out of the picture. At no point though does this invalidate the fact that his contribution to getting Mr. Buu spat out was any less major. The way the events played out with him there shows how the events would have played out without him there. It's fundamentally no different than knowing that Goku teleported down in Trunks' time and defeated Freeza and Cold because Goku indicated he was going to do just that in the present timeline, but Trunks' arrival made him wait.

You keep explaining what *you* think he meant. I'm citing what *Goku himself* says. When you say Goku is talking about other versions of Buu that ceased to exist, you have nothing to back this assertion up except your own opinion. Conversely when I say Goku is talking specifically about Kid Buu, I cite Super Buu's own statement that he ceased to exist then I also cite Goku's own words. Goku is talking in second person to Kid Buu. Goku says to Buu that *YOU* hung in there and that *YOU* fought all by yourself. The person Goku is talking to has two unique characteristics. The person Goku is talking to both 'hung in there' and did so 'on his own.' Neither of those two things apply to Super Buu so Goku cannot be referring to Super Buu. You can say it's the same Buu all you want but that's not what Goku is talking about. What is stated in the manga here and backed up by Daizenshuu trumps what you think Buu here should refer to.

Given that it is all the exact same Buu, him speaking to and about Pure Buu there is a moot point. Evil Buu's line is simple to follow and makes far more sense than just some brand new Buu totally unrelated to the other just appearing. Pure Evil Buu is Evil Buu and is Pure Buu. Personalities and minds may change between the versions, but it's still the same Buu in the end. Evil Buu's line doesn't contradict that, and neither does Goku's.

[MisterGuyMan]

For starters, ki is comprised of a lot more than just those three elements. Toriyama's wording in the SEG just cited those as examples of some of the elements that make it up. Beside that though, you're making the assumption that he can't sense mind or courage. We already know he's capable of sensing other elements, as seen with the earlier mentioned seiki, so why not those too?

Everything we've seen, up to the Buu arc, has them using ki and power as alternatives for genki when it came to the Genki Dama. Never any other way around. As such, while any reference to ki or power when speaking of the Genki Dama during the Buu arc could be in reference to genki (and it makes the most sense this way), there's nothing supporting the idea of any use of the term genki to be referring to ki.

I know that Toriyama has defined Ki as comprising of three different components. That's why originally I argued that Ki and Genki should be treated distinctly with the Super Genki Dama. You, however, was to argue that various characters use Genki and Ki interchangeably. So I'm applying your logic not mine. You are ignoring my earlier argument that Goku can sense people's Ki and differentiate between their people purely by the differences in their Ki. He has no such power to sense people's Genki specifically. So that's your example for how, with the Super Genki Dama specifically, it's interchangeable with Ki.

Why look at or for nuances when the simpler way of looking at it is clear as can be, especially when that clear way is supported by so much information? Absorption removal makes Buu weaker and we see the removal of the absorption that makes Evil Buu who he is. Obviously successful removal of that will make Buu weaker. That's the most straightforward way that can be taken, and it fits the facts provided.

The absolute simplest reading of that specific event is that removing the multiple absorptions weakened Buu but removing Fat Buu in particular caused Buu to spike in power. This is the simplest narrative because it's outright stated that right after Fat Buu was removed that Buu's Ki began to rise.

We've seen several times before between the anime and manga that the specifics of fights change and aren't clear cut between one or the other. Goku's total lack of Kaiou-ken in conjunction with Blue is a major point if you ask me, as well as several other deviations between them. As it stands, we don't even know if there will be a Genki Dama in the manga, which is why I bring it up. If it's an anime only invention, then it's something that Toei potentially created themselves, and thus we have to question if such a thing follows the actual rules of the Genki Dama or not.

The Genki Dama is a major plot point because it's directly responsible for Ultra Instinct which is an essential part of the story. SSG as a form was the entire appearance was the same. SSB was the same. SSBKK and MSSJ were different but neither were essential for the Champa arc and Zamasu arc respectively. If, however, the Genki Dama appears as the final trump card against Jiren then what then? Will you concede that the Genki Dama is indeed stronger than the power of those donating? If not then there's no point in your argument and we're wasting time.

Even if the manga doesn't use the Genki Dama that doesn't actually change the fact that one of the official continuations of the DB manga confirms that the Super Genki Dama is stronger than the ones who donate energy into said Super Genki Dama. That constitutes as evidence. If the manga doesn't do the same, and we both know that's highly unlikely, then you're essentially citing an absence of evidence fallacy against a legitimate piece of evidence. Toriyama was heavily involved in the ToP arc and there was a back and forth between him and the anime staff. He would have known about the ToP Genki Dama being used as a Trump Card for U7 regardless of how the manga handles it. So if he was ok with the anime doing that with the Genki Dama then no amount of absence of evidence from another source will be enough to counter that.

I want actual evidence though, not "evidence" that is open to interpretation and requires alternate and more convoluted views on how events transpired to make them work. Your entire argument, as of late, has revolved around the ToP Genki Dama as support for your view on the Buu arc Genki Dama. My reasoning for questioning it then is that if it is something that Toriyama himself didn't come up with, and instead was a Toei-ism that doesn't abide by the rules of the Genki Dama, then it invalidates it as evidence.

You want your cake and eat it too. You cited the Guide that talked about multiple absorptions as evidence which relies heavily on your interpetation. Now you're arguing that my Genki Dama argument cannot be used because it's open to interpretation. Which way do you want to go?

Moreover it isn't really open to interpretation. The alternative simply makes no sense. To put it very bluntly, if you disagree with my ToP argument then you would have to accept that Goku was trying his hardest against Jiren and had to rely on his Trump Card the Genki Dama... but then that entire narrative would make no sense because Gohan is stronger than the Genki Dama and by extension must also be stronger than Goku too. Let's be real here. If the manga also uses the Genki Dama in the same role, will you concede this point and accept it or will you find some other reason to dismiss this? Because if you're going to do that anyway, why are we wasting time on this line of argument?

I've already explained this before. Mr. Satan's contribution to the Genki Dama was considerable, and I'm not denying that, but the Daizenshuu's entries can only be taken based on what is shown. By the time that Mr. Satan made his contribution, Gohan was effectively out of the picture. At no point though does this invalidate the fact that his contribution to getting Mr. Buu spat out was any less major. The way the events played out with him there shows how the events would have played out without him there. It's fundamentally no different than knowing that Goku teleported down in Trunks' time and defeated Freeza and Cold because Goku indicated he was going to do just that in the present timeline, but Trunks' arrival made him wait.

This is where you need to cite actual evidence. I flatly deny that getting Fat Buu spit out was at any level important if Gohan could indeed have beaten Kid Buu. By that time there were multiple possibilities to bring Gohan into the fight and thus the universe was never in danger until each of those possibilities were extinguished. Even when Satan makes his appeal, we have one wish still there with Goku still being able to IT in Gohan. We also have the issue of how Kid Buu could just fall asleep for no reason like he did earlier or enter into his cycle of hibernation which is a confirmed thing in case you forgot. That's why I cite Daizenshuu to prove that Satan's appeal was his pivotal contribution. That way you can't argue that I just made it up. Your interpretation has no such evidence and thus I can argue that you're just insisting on your own narrative which you can't actually prove.

Given that it is all the exact same Buu, him speaking to and about Pure Buu there is a moot point. Evil Buu's line is simple to follow and makes far more sense than just some brand new Buu totally unrelated to the other just appearing. Pure Evil Buu is Evil Buu and is Pure Buu. Personalities and minds may change between the versions, but it's still the same Buu in the end. Evil Buu's line doesn't contradict that, and neither does Goku's.

The first sentence I put in bold is the problem here. You assume that it's a given that it's all the same exact Buu. It's not a given just because you tell me it's a given and moreover it's not a given according to Goku. Goku is specifically addressing one singular version of Buu that fought all by himself right until the end. By the context and Goku's own description, this Buu, which was reincarated, must have been Kid Buu. These are Goku's words not mine. By contrast your "Buu Line" argument is not something I agree with on any level. I'm allowed to dismiss this theory because you haven't proven it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

"But Boo is no longer merged either"

As a reply to not fusing, that doesn't make any sense if Kid Boo is already beyond the Boo Goku refused to fight without merging. The fact that it's presented as a rebuttal infers that the current Boo they're going up against is less powerful now that he has no absorptions. If he wasn't weaker, then Boo no longer being merged is entirely irrelevant as a response to Old Kaioshin's question.

Goku wanted to merge against Super Boo before he even knew Mr. Boo was inside. If it was just a matter of "being fair", then he wouldn't have kept talking about fighting Super Boo as a team or merged. The situation simply required them to merge because they weren't strong enough. Kid Boo didn't require them to merge. It would've simply been more convenient if they became Vegito and ended the battle in an instant.

The same Goku sensed Super Boo when he first transformed and watched Super Boo clash with Gotenks and Gohan at their highest levels. He also sensed how much weaker Boo had become when he dropped to Piccolo Boo before immediately putting the fight back into Gohan's hands. Goku knows how powerful Super Boo is, so naturally he'd know how he compared to him. There's no reason to assume he forgot everything by the time he entered Boo's body.

[alakazam^]

By that time there were multiple possibilities to bring Gohan into the fight and thus the universe was never in danger until each of those possibilities were extinguished.

The Universe was never in any danger because Beers and Whis were around. You can't move the goalposts everytime and not acknowledge this. Either Super counts and the presence of Beers and Whis make the Daizenshuu claims wrong or you don't count Super and you no longer have a leg to stand on since you can't use your Genki Dama argument. Also, you're conveniently ignoring that the Daizenshuu called Gohan "The strongest warrior" after the ritual.

The first sentence I put in bold is the problem here. You assume that it's a given that it's all the same exact Buu. It's not a given just because you tell me it's a given and moreover it's not a given according to Goku. Goku is specifically addressing one singular version of Buu that fought all by himself right until the end. By the context and Goku's own description, this Buu, which was reincarated, must have been Kid Buu. These are Goku's words not mine. By contrast your "Buu Line" argument is not something I agree with on any level. I'm allowed to dismiss this theory because you haven't proven it.

Why is this so hard to understand? His shape, intellect and strength changed but it's all the same Boo, he wasn't spontaneously created. If you recognize Oob as coming from pure Boo, then you have to do the same concerning evil Boo.

By the way, this topic is about if it made more sense for pure Boo to be the strongest.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Also, you're conveniently ignoring that the Daizenshuu called Gohan "The strongest warrior" after the ritual.

Tbh the Daizenshuu only lists the "Mightiest Warrior" as appearing on Volume 41, whereas Pure Boo debuted on Volume 42.

[alakazam^]

Also, you're conveniently ignoring that the Daizenshuu called Gohan "The strongest warrior" after the ritual.

Tbh the Daizenshuu only lists the "Mightiest Warrior" as appearing on Volume 41, whereas Pure Boo debuted on Volume 42.

That's true but my point was comparing him to Goku.

[MisterGuyMan]

The Universe was never in any danger because Beers and Whis were around. You can't move the goalposts everytime and not acknowledge this. Either Super counts and the presence of Beers and Whis make the Daizenshuu claims wrong or you don't count Super and you no longer have a leg to stand on since you can't use your Genki Dama argument.

Out of universe explanation is that they weren't created yet. In-Universe explanation is that Beers dies if Kaio Shin dies and Whi just gets recalled by Grand Priest. This is also a Red Herring because using this logic I can through out everything that happened in Saiyan Saga because Vegeta was wrong when he said he was strongest in the universe. Retcons are still a thing. Your position argues that once a retcon happens we cna ignore everything from that source.

Also, you're conveniently ignoring that the Daizenshuu called Gohan "The strongest warrior" after the ritual.

A strong argument could be made that this is merely the term they use for Ultimate Gohan since it was never officially named in the manga:
[spoiler]Gohan: “Ho-how can I turn into this mightiest of warriors!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “You transform into that Super whatever-it-is a lot, right? You’ll be fine if you just get the gist of that, and throw in a kiai.”
Gohan: “The gist of Super Saiyan…I-I got it…!”[/spoiler]
Also remember that Goku doesn't is dead anyway and Gohan is never referred to as the strongest after Volume 41 anyway. We have multiple references to Kid Buu and Goku being strongest in volume 42.

Why is this so hard to understand? His shape, intellect and strength changed but it's all the same Boo, he wasn't spontaneously created. If you recognize Oob as coming from pure Boo, then you have to do the same concerning evil Boo.

By the way, this topic is about if it made more sense for pure Boo to be the strongest.

The point is the *GOKU* is talking about one specific Buu. He identifies this Buu by pointing out he fought all by himself. So even if *YOU* really *REALLY* want to talk about Buu in general, the scene is not. When I say Buu has Gohan's power then I'm very specifically talking about Buuhan. You can't tell me I'm not referring to Buuhan because only Buuhan fulfills the criteria of having Gohan's power. Likewise here, Goku is saluting Buu who fought all by himself. So you have no right to tell Goku he's talking about other versions of Buu when he obviously took the time to define which Buu he was talking about.

[alakazam^]

Out of universe explanation is that they weren't created yet. In-Universe explanation is that Beers dies if Kaio Shin dies and Whi just gets recalled by Grand Priest. This is also a Red Herring because using this logic I can through out everything that happened in Saiyan Saga because Vegeta was wrong when he said he was strongest in the universe. Retcons are still a thing. Your position argues that once a retcon happens we cna ignore everything from that source.

Kaioushin wasn't dead so that point is moot.

Vegeeta can lie but the guidebooks cannot. Like you said, they are supplementary so there shouldn't be room for errors there. Yet, there are several. You also say that future truth overrides past truth so you have to discuss these matters using Super logic. Thus, Beers and Whis are around and the Universe wasn't in danger. Thus, any notion that Goku is the strongest is incorrect.

Also, you know how the anime likes to call Boo the strongest? Because they also felt it was a good idea having Goku fight in SS2. That's how threatning Boo was...

A strong argument could be made that this is merely the term they use for Ultimate Gohan since it was never officially named in the manga:
Also remember that Goku doesn't is dead anyway and Gohan is never referred to as the strongest after Volume 41 anyway. We have multiple references to Kid Buu and Goku being strongest in volume 42.

"Strongest" is pretty straightforward. Even if it was just a name, Kaioushin is plenty aware of the situation and wouldn't call it that if it wasn't the case. Please don't be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, if Gohan is the strongest in volume 41 then so is he in volume 42 since hardly any time passes. The daizenshuu only specifies volume 41 because that was when he first appeared and Boo and Veget debut in volume 42 anyway. This is common sense.

The point is the *GOKU* is talking about one specific Buu. He identifies this Buu by pointing out he fought all by himself. So even if *YOU* really *REALLY* want to talk about Buu in general, the scene is not. When I say Buu has Gohan's power then I'm very specifically talking about Buuhan. You can't tell me I'm not referring to Buuhan because only Buuhan fulfills the criteria of having Gohan's power. Likewise here, Goku is saluting Buu who fought all by himself. So you have no right to tell Goku he's talking about other versions of Buu when he obviously took the time to define which Buu he was talking about.

To me, it makes no difference since they're all the same Boo. Pure Boo is the original Boo but all the other forms are him as well. You like using the anime, right? Because they expanded that scene and talked about all the changes he had.

[MisterGuyMan]

Kaioushin wasn't dead so that point is moot.

The argument was that Beerus and Whis would save the universe so that Buu couldn't destroy the universe as stated by Daizenshuu and DBS. This is wrong. If Kid Buu kills Kaio Shin then Beers and Whis can't stop it.

Vegeeta can lie but the guidebooks cannot. Like you said, they are supplementary so there shouldn't be room for errors there. Yet, there are several. You also say that future truth overrides past truth so you have to discuss these matters using Super logic. Thus, Beers and Whis are around and the Universe wasn't in danger. Thus, any notion that Goku is the strongest is incorrect.

Also, you know how the anime likes to call Boo the strongest? Because they also felt it was a good idea having Goku fight in SS2. That's how threatning Boo was...

The guidebooks are supplementary but they carry more weight than what fans believe. As I pointed out before, the guidebooks and DBS just reiterate the parts of the manga that try to frame Goku and Kid Buu as being the two strongest at the end. Vegeta makes that statement before the fight and Goku comments how everyone would have died without the Genki Dama. Those are valid parts of the manga. Daizenshuu and DBS both repeat that narrative but they do not reiterate the Gohan and Super Buu narrative. That counts.

Also as I explained already, Beers and Whis can't stop Buu from killing Kaio Shin so mentioning them doesn't change anything about the universe's danger.

"Strongest" is pretty straightforward. Even if it was just a name, Kaioushin is plenty aware of the situation and wouldn't call it that if it wasn't the case. Please don't be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn, if Gohan is the strongest in volume 41 then so is he in volume 42 since hardly any time passes. The daizenshuu only specifies volume 41 because that was when he first appeared and Boo and Veget debut in volume 42 anyway. This is common sense.

If it's just a title that is borrowed from Elder Kaio then it's not straightforward at all. That phrase can also just be translated as Ultimate Gohan which is nothing but a title. Calling Gohan Ultimate doesn't make him stronger than Beerus even though "ultimate" would mean he's the best.

That part of Daizenshuu also points out when these characters appear. For example:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Other characters in that segment are given ranges for there appearances. So if Ultimate Gohan is shown to be in volume 41 but not in 42 then that could be interpreted to mean that he's no longer the strongest. I don't put much stock in that honestly though since I believe it's just a title. It's like arguing that Ultimate Gohan must be stronger than Beers because he's called Ultimate.

To me, it makes no difference since they're all the same Boo. Pure Boo is the original Boo but all the other forms are him as well. You like using the anime, right? Because they expanded that scene and talked about all the changes he had.

I'm talking about the manga and no they're not all the same. When Fat Buu and Evil Buu fought, the manga differentiated between them. Super Buu said he would cease to exist even though Fat Buu and Kid Buu still existed. Buutenks refered to Super Buu as a previous Buu. Kid Buu was identified as the first Buu. So if we go by the manga, we are allowed to identify specific versions of Buu to talk about without being forced to talk about every other Buu that ever existed. That's why Goku must be talking about Kid Buu.

[alakazam^]

The argument was that Beerus and Whis would save the universe so that Buu couldn't destroy the universe as stated by Daizenshuu and DBS. This is wrong. If Kid Buu kills Kaio Shin then Beers and Whis can't stop it.

And if Boo doesn't, they stop him. What are you even arguing about?

The guidebooks are supplementary but they carry more weight than what fans believe.

Other characters in that segment are given ranges for there appearances.

They list "Prince of Destruction" Vegeeta for the volume he appears in and onwards. I guess he's still under Bobbidi's spell since they didn't list SS2 for him.

Calling Gohan Ultimate doesn't make him stronger than Beerus even though "ultimate" would mean he's the best.

Exactly. Beers and Whis are stronger than anyone else: Goku, Gohan and Boo included. Good to see you finally agree.

There's nothing else to say about this, really.

Manga Goku disproves pure Boo being the strongest.
The Daizenshuu is unreliable.
Super disproves anyone being stronger than Whis and Beers, at that time.

I'm pretty sure you'll mix and match what counts or not to refute all of that but I won't be addressing this topic anymore.

[MisterGuyMan]

And if Boo doesn't, they stop him. What are you even arguing about?

Why are you assuming Buu won't just because you need Beerus to kill him? The manga frames the fight as a fight for the universe so Kaio Shin would have died too.

They list "Prince of Destruction" Vegeeta for the volume he appears in and onwards. I guess he's still under Bobbidi's spell since they didn't list SS2 for him.

Your logic seems to be a variation of "this thing made at least one error therefore I am allowed to ignore everything this source says ever" I hate to be blunt but that's not good reasoning.

Exactly. Beers and Whis are stronger than anyone else: Goku, Gohan and Boo included. Good to see you finally agree.

And it's a Red Herring Fallacy that isn't actually relevant. Using your logic we can ignore how Vegeta is stronger than Goku in Saiyan Saga because Vegeta says he's the strongest in the universe so everything in that arc can now be ignored. Burtur says he's the fastest in the universe so I guess we throw out everything from the Namek arc too. etc. etc.

Manga Goku disproves pure Boo being the strongest.
The Daizenshuu is unreliable.
Super disproves anyone being stronger than Whis and Beers, at that time.
I'm pretty sure you'll mix and match what counts or not to refute all of that but I won't be addressing this topic anymore.

This is your confirmation bias showing. The original manga is unreliable too but I don't see you dismissing everything found in the original manga. Toriyama recognizes Daizenshuu as a valid resource but somehow we're supposed to trust you, a random fan, over Toriyam, the original author. It's a huge amount of arrogance on your part when you actually complain about me mixing and matching evidence when you're ignoring valid pieces of evidence wholesale for hypocritical reasons. As I said before, if you dismiss Daizenshuu for being inconsistent, then you have to ignore everything from the original manga too for being inconsistent. You don't though. That's a double standard.