Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

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Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:53 am

All the controversy going on about this topic, it's almost confirmed Kid Buu is one of the weakest Buu(s). But what if Kid Buu is the strongest Buu? Like would it make things more consistent or better for the plot?
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by House of Balloons » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:18 am

First off, it is heavily implied in the manga that Super Buu>Kid Buu since Goku admitted that Super Buu was stronger than both Goku & Vegeta.

http://zeq2.com/lite/forums/files/sin_ttulo_314.png

Yet he was confident in trying to kill Kid Buu and Vegeta said he should be able to beat him at full power.

Main reason he was unable to was due to not being able to power up fully and not being used to fighting with SSJ3 in his living body.

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/39/2vdk0o3.jpg

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/63/vgra89.jpg

The Daizenshuu/chapter summaries confirm that Super Buu was Fat Buu obtaining a super powerup. You could argue they mean Super Buu to Fat Buu, but the other statements
would imply he is still above Kid Buu.

https://img00.deviantart.net/fdfc/i/200 ... kdbz98.jpg

Buutenks himself states that he is the most powerful Majin, and this is before even going full power (since he was toying with Ultimate Gohan)

https://i.imgur.com/DEjnzIV.jpg

El Manga Legendario de Dragon Ball Z (an official guide) states that although Majin Buu had returned to his most aggressive/evil form (Kid Buu), that he wasn't as powerful AND that if
Gotenks and Gohan were present, they would have been more than sufficient to defeat Kid Buu.

https://i.imgur.com/tx08wbr.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... re34t3.png

Goku himself confirms that Gotenks even Post-ROSAT would be stronger than his SSJ3, which he admitted would get defeated by Base Super Buu.

https://i.imgur.com/xRZH4Cn.jpg

Ultimate Gohan is confirmed stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I can post anime scans as well, but not needed since the same things are implied in the manga.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dra ... 0312205139

EVEN if you wanted to use this Q & A with Toriyama that implied he made the smaller characters appear stronger, it doesn't mean Kid Buu> Super Buu. Toriyama himself says he switched between both story telling methods.

As an additional point, Kid Buu is heavily implied to be the original, and most EVIL or destructive Buu, not the most powerful.

The manga confirms Buuhan> Base Vegito and enraged Buuhan in the anime> Base Vegito (since Vegito had to further power up to counter his vice shout)

Vegito is either >400x above base Goku or literally Vegeta x Goku in addition to a rival boost which I can also post proof of.

Either way, the guides, summaries, statements, and battle sequences prove that not only is Super Buu, let alone Buutenks and Buuhan, is already more powerful than Kid Buu in both the ANIME and the MANGA.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:40 am

House of Balloons wrote:First off, it is heavily implied in the manga that Super Buu>Kid Buu since Goku admitted that Super Buu was stronger than both Goku & Vegeta.

http://zeq2.com/lite/forums/files/sin_ttulo_314.png

Yet he was confident in trying to kill Kid Buu and Vegeta said he should be able to beat him at full power.
Null argument. Goku was never able to beat Kid Buu and wasn't actually confident at all. In fact, Goku wanted to let Kid Buu destroy as many planets as possible to think of something, however Goku was cornered to fight him because Kid Buu located Goku:

[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

So you're point is completely invalid. I'll cover this later
House of Balloons wrote:Main reason he was unable to was due to not being able to power up fully and not being used to fighting with SSJ3 in his living body.

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/39/2vdk0o3.jpg

https://i.neoseeker.com/u/t/63/vgra89.jpg

The Daizenshuu/chapter summaries confirm that Super Buu was Fat Buu obtaining a super powerup. You could argue they mean Super Buu to Fat Buu, but the other statements
would imply he is still above Kid Buu.
What? Daizenshuu claims he received a super power up AFTER the split of Super Buu, and evil buu is shit compared to fat Buu. So stating that Super power up compares anywhere to Super Buu is utter speculation. I'll clarify this in my next comment
House of Balloons wrote: https://img00.deviantart.net/fdfc/i/200 ... kdbz98.jpg

Buutenks himself states that he is the most powerful Majin, and this is before even going full power (since he was toying with Ultimate Gohan)
Super Buu has no knowledge of himself of Kid Buu so null argument, since it doesn't apply to Kid Buu:

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”
Boo: “Sto-stop it! Do-don’t touch that! Hands off!”
Vegeta: “Kukkukku…You seem even more panicked than I expected…Apparently it will be quite unfavorable for you…”
Boo: “Th-that’s the only one you mustn’t tear out…! I-I’ll stop being me!”
Goku: “’I’ll stop being me’…?”
Vegeta: “That sounds interesting…Did you really think I’d listen to you?”


I still can't see your point.
House of Balloons wrote:El Manga Legendario de Dragon Ball Z (an official guide) states that although Majin Buu had returned to his most aggressive/evil form (Kid Buu), that he wasn't as powerful AND that if
Gotenks and Gohan were present, they would have been more than sufficient to defeat Kid Buu.

https://i.imgur.com/tx08wbr.jpg
Ironically this same guide claims that Goku is the strongest in the universe including Gohan yet Kid Buu is stronger than Goku. The same page you linked suggests that only if BOTH GOHAN AND GOTENKS together need to beat Buu. This is also the only guide which suggests that Kid Buu isn't the strongest as all other guides suggest I'm correct
House ot Balloons wrote: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/or ... re34t3.png

Goku himself confirms that Gotenks even Post-ROSAT would be stronger than his SSJ3, which he admitted would get defeated by Base Super Buu.
Nice try, but Goku never did say that Gotenks is anywhere near him infornt of Buu, so the statement to Piccolo is rendered as a lie.
House of Balloons wrote:https://i.imgur.com/xRZH4Cn.jpg

Ultimate Gohan is confirmed stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I can post anime scans as well, but not needed since the same things are implied in the manga.
I'll clarify things in details in my next comment
House of Balloons wrote: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/ ... 004zh3.jpg

EVEN if you wanted to use this Q & A with Toriyama that implied he made the smaller characters appear stronger, it doesn't mean Kid Buu> Super Buu. Toriyama himself says he switched between both story telling methods.
Lmao, not really. The interviewer gives Majin Buu as an example and Akira Toriyama agrees with him. Fat Chance bro
House of Balloons wrote:As an additional point, Kid Buu is heavily implied to be the original, and most EVIL or destructive Buu, not the most powerful.

The manga confirms Buuhan> Base Vegito and enraged Buuhan in the anime> Base Vegito (since Vegito had to further power up to counter his vice shout)

Vegito is either >400x above base Goku or literally Vegeta x Goku in addition to a rival boost which I can also post proof of.

Either way, the guides, summaries, statements, and battle sequences prove that not only is Super Buu, let alone Buutenks and Buuhan, is already more powerful than Kid Buu in both the ANIME and the MANGA.
Well, I'll show you why you're misinformed now
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:41 am

House of Balloons wrote:
I'll be proving that Ssj3 Goku from the Buu Saga is above Ultimate Gohan and that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu and probably the strongest Buu.

According to Vegeta on Episode 2 from Dragon Ball Super, Vegeta states that Goku is the undisputed number 1 in the entire universe EVER since the Buu Saga AFTER Buu was killed. Vegeta is implying that Goku is by far the strongest in the ENTIRE universe, which includes Gohan (mind you this is all recent information which is also backed up by hundreds of sources). According to Vegeta, Goku is the strongest ever, AFTER Buu has died. Meaning Kid Buu is stronger than Goku, who is stronger than anybody else. Vegeta here was ONLY referencing Buu Saga Goku, and Vegeta references BoG Goku ONLY after stating that Goku is the undisputed strongest when he says "even now he keeps training", which suggests that Goku is the strongest:
At the moment, you're probably thinking that Vegeta doesn't know about Gohan or Gotenks, but I'll prove why Vegeta knows about both Gohan AND Gotenks.

Vegeta already has witnessed Ssj3 Goku when he's dead, which suggests that Vegeta was watching everything that's happening, which explains why he seems aware of almost the entire situation. He knows about Goku's Ssj3 Transformation which suggests the fact that he's been watching the entire situation:
If you're trying to suggest that this only applies to Goku, then no, that would be utter speculation. But you know what?WHO CARES ABOUT THIS EVIDENCE? because there's another proof which shows Vegeta aware of all these shits which are happening. Goku already witnessed Gohan and Gotenks, and he knows everything about them. Vegeta basically FUSED with Goku using the Potara, so ALL MEMORY would be transferred to Vegeta. Yes, all knowledge one side shares will be read and known for the other party. Vegito seemed aware of Gotenks's abilities of Fusion and all memory of Goku is transferred to Vegeta. This is similar to how Vegeta knew Goku had Mastered Super Saiyan Blue After defusing:
So Vegeta would have already knew about Gohan and Gotenks in the Buu Saga EITHER WAY. This opens a shit load of arguments now

Goku first asks Vegeta whether he meant to being Gohan and Gotenks to beat Buu. Notice Goku references BOTH Gohan and Gotenks, to fight WITH GOKU, VEGETA AND FAT BUU and not just alone. It sounds definitely weird for Goku to suggest all the group to fight if one of them is enough to beat Kid Buu. Vegeta yet STILL refuses the offer, and thinks of another move to beat Kid Buu which is the Spirit Bomb, which kind of contradicts any reason behind having Gohan above Kid Buu since the Implification makes it sound as if Kid Buu could be beaten ONLY IF Gohan and EVERYONE ELSE powerful such as Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu fight:
Later on, Vegeta starts his speech and then says that he needs AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE to defeat Buu. This is after Vegeta refused to bring Gohan and Gotenks and then starts saying that they need as much energy as possible from everybody. Vegeta does know about Gohan and Gotenks, and note that Vegeta SPECIFICALLY says that everyone's UTMOST energy is needed to beat Kid Buu, and NOTHING ELSE:
Goku himself reaffirms Vegeta's statement and states again that he needs ALL OF EVERYONE'S energy. The key word here is "All". Why would everyone's "All" be needed if one is more than enough? Your typical argument might be about Genki and Ki, but I'll prove why Genki Dama takes Ki in general later on:
Almost everyone starts to refuse giving their energy, and so Goku gets flustered and states that Goku needs their help. Why is he in dire need of their help if he could simply bring Gohan or Gotenks to stop kid Buu if no one is listening? Like Goku will just stand their persuading them while Kid Buu is making this case more worse? Goku actually screams "we need your help!" and is worried that they aren't giving their energy despite Gohan contributing his. Gohan and everybody else were ordered to give their energy AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, so it's denial to say Gohan didn't give his energy in his Ultimate Form. This was a direct order and the safest thing to suggest is that Gohan agreed and gave off as much energy as possible:
Goku later FURTHER affirms this by saying "why don't they understand". Understand what? Goku was talking about how he is in need of their energy to their fullest, and that he needs it to beat Kid Buu. So they don't understand that Goku needs them to KILL KID BUU OTHERWISE THEY'D FAIL:
Vegeta then starts to tell everyone that if they didn't contribute their energy, Kid Buu will kill them. How would he kill them if Gohan and Gotenks are their to save the day? Kind of contradictory to suggest that Kid Buu is weaker than Gohan and Gotenks when it's quite clearly supported a shit ton that Kid Buu Can only be defeated by using all of their energy AS MUCH AS possible:
So whatever energy they father from everyone to their fullest will be above any other option there is, and without that, Kid Buu would beat everybody and no one could stop him, including Gohan and Gotenks as shown now. Vegeta claims that the world will end because Kid Buu say Vegeta and the Spirit Bomb. Why is it the end if there's someone out there who could get rid of Kid Buu? Lmao this is more than obvious at this point:
Because barely anyone is giving their energy, Goku says "don't you fools care about earth?". What's wrong with earth? I mean there is Gohan and Gotenks! They are INFERIOR to kid buu. If no one contributes their energy, Kid Buu will brick on earth and no one will be able to stop Buu. Simple:
Vegeta says that he wants to kill Good Buu because if he happened to bring that devastating Buu (referenfing Kid Buu; it can't be Super Buu as he was bitchslapped by Gohan and was equivalent to Gotenks so he ain't a problem, Fat Buu being weaker than Goku is confirmed already, and Buff Buu is nowhere near stated to be anywhere above Gohan so it's a speculative issue to even suggest that Buff Buu is above Gohan, so Gohan is still above Buff Buu until proven otherwise, which means he's not a thread. The only one left is Kid Buu, who's been already referenced tons of times to be above any other character in the Universe), then the entire world will end, despite Gohan and Gotenks are there. Goku directly agrees with him:


Goku then tells Vegeta that Good Buu helped them, and without Buu and Satan, Goku, Vegeta and everyone else in the world would have been done by now. Kind of weird to say that if Gohan and Gotenks are there don't you think? Yeah definitely (The viz translation is unclear at all. Herm's literal translation will be shown right now):



According to Both Goku AND Vegeta, Kid Buu > Everyone currently existing. This is an undeniable evidence right here. This is supported in Dragon Ball Kai, in which Vegeta tells King Kai that if Kid Buu is not defeated by the Spirit Bomb, the world is over. Why? I mean, Gohan and Gotenks are there. It means they're inferior to Kid Buu:



This is all supported by Gohan, in which Gohan himself says and concedes of his own inferiority to kid buu and that if no one contributes their energy then Buu will sit on everybody and this direct concession cannot be ever denied whatsoever:



This actually adds on the fact that Gohan should have contributed all of his power because he himself is aware of the danger. You might say that Gohan is overreacting, but no that's utterly wrong. Gohan sensed the ENTIRE battle. Gohan and Piccolo, BOTH, mention the issue about sensing them, so Gohan is aware of the power Kid Buu is releasing:



So Gohan and Piccolo~ Heck even the kids, are sensing the battle. So Gohan's statement has a huge basis towards it and he concedes to his inferiority to Kid Buu. Dragon Ball Forever DIRECTLY states that Goku fights a powered up buu in comparison to previous one which is buff buu. Buff Buu is superior to Super Buu and that much is already confirmed:



"Goku engaged in combat without Fusion. He battles a powered-up Majin Boo with Super Saiyan 3!"

Even The reaction of Kaioshin differs when Kid Buu is shown, yet with super buu he's happy. Happy for what? For Goku and Vegeta to die? Kaioshin is aware that Gohan and the rest are unconscious as he SAW THEM being knocked out after being released. So Goku's statement contradicts things here. Kid Buu is more dangerous? Yes sure but there's NO REASON to be more scared of him if he's far weaker than Super Buu because no matter how dangerous he is, if he's so much inferior to Super Buu then there's no reason to be afraid of him, given that Kaioshin isn't scared of super buu now that he's back:



Your argument might be that Goku said Kid Buu is weak because Goku and Vegeta said they can handle him right? Wrong again because according to the Japanese translation literally from herms, Goku and Vegeta were talking about his SIZE:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.


In Dragon Ball Super, It's stated that Goku became the greatest hero of earth and that he started to get bored because there's no one there to fight him and make him enjoy himself and that he wants to fight stronger enemies and characters yet if Gohan and Gotenks are above Goku, then Goku wouldn't be bored and he would have something to look forward to. Yes that IS an worthy point to mention as this reaffirms the earlier statement in the following scan that Goku became the greatest hero and now he's bored yet at the same time it's stating that Goku wants to fight stronger opponents, yet there are Gohan and Gotenks which aren't on the list at all. This confirms Vegeta's statement of Goku being the strongest:



El Manga Legendario states that Goku reached a level no Saiyan has ever reached. You might argue that this is talking about Ssj3, but wrong because if it's talking about Ssj3 then Gotenks would have been included as he also is a Saiyan and achieved Ssj3. Yet the guide clearly says Goku reached a level no Saiyan ever Did, and this is hinted to be power-wise because directly afterwards the guide references Goku's power:



Spanish Text: "el tercer nivel En su intento de eliminar a todos los habitantes del planeta, Bu y Babidí fijan su objetivo en la Capital del Oeste.iY el radar dragón se encuentra alli!Mientras Trunks va a buscarlo, Goku trata de detener a Bu alcanzando un nivel al que ningún saivano había llegado"

English Text: "In its attempt to eliminate all the inhabitants of the planet, Buu and Babidí fix their objective in the Capital of the West. And the dragon radar is there! While Trunks goes to look for him, Goku tries to stop Buu reaching a level that no saiyan had reached"

The title of Episode 286 in Dragon Ball Z is actually titled: "Goku is the strongest after all!!". This WASNT CHANGED in Dragon Ball Kai at all and this is confirmed and Dragon Ball Kai is Akira Toriyama's original Cut:



According to the title of Episode 284, the spirit bomb was the LAST HOPE of beating Kid Buu. This is supported by all the lore in both the Anime and the Manga:



Vegeta calls Goku "number 1" and in Kai it's confirmed further with the Manga which reaffirms his statement in DBS about Goku being the undisputed number 1 person in the entire universe:



According to Vegeta, He says that Goku is the ONLY PERSON capable of fighting THIS Majin Buu. So this Buu, can only be fought by Goku and no one else. Vegeta's statement is uncontradicted given it's supported a shit tons of times already. Gohan was already chilling in afterlife and this is a given as anyone who dies and has a pure heart will have their body. Gohan was chilling in afterlife yet Goku was meant to be the only last hope that could ever fight Kid Buu:



Also, Akira Toriyama himself confirms that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu where the interviewer asks him about it and Akira Toriyama agrees and further confirms it. That's an absolute undeniable evidence:



Akira Toriyama Confirms his direct intentions of have the "small and weak looking characters be the strongest" which is affirmed by how he showed Goku and Vegeta underestimating kid buu only to fall on their heads. Akira Toriyama didn't change his thoughts as he himself says it's been 30 years and he still holds the same idea:



Goku and Vegeta DID UNDERESTIMATE KID BUU. Kid Buu released a blast that according to Goku, he cannot stop even with Ssj3 and he thought trying is meaningless. Suddenly he wants to fight Kid Buu, but the reason is clear as day as he said it, because Goku wants to fight him "one on one" and look "cool" as he later confirms:



It is directly stated that Vegeta and Goku both underestimated Kid Buu and that He was playing with them in the Kaioshin Realm. Vegeta even confirms that he underestimated Kid Buu after fighting buu as he admits it in which he gets surprised Goku is fighting a being like that and this was AFTER stating that Goku is the only being who could fight him:



This is kind of similar to Goku's statement to Super Buu. He says he can't beat him, yet he did say the same thing when Kid Buu tried to blast earth yet Goku believes he will manage something and that he could manage a beating. More to that is the fact that Goku already said before that he can't beat Fat Buu in the same manner. Goku says he can't beat Super Buu, yet when super buu comes by, Goku responds with transforming to only Super Saiyan and believes he can escape or get past Super Buu. In Dragon ball Kai, as probably everyone knows, it is stated that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu by Goku:



It's confirmed narrative wise that Kid Buu was a threat to Earth who would have destroyed it Despite Gohan being there:



Daizenshuu States that the battle between Goku and Kid Buu is a fight with the universe at stake, if kid Buu wins the universe is gone, despite Gohan chilling in afterlife eating cookies and could be called anytime:



Vegeta himself in Dragon Ball Super states that Goku is the strongest Saiyan ever ASIDE from the very first scan which I showed reaffirming his point which he made during Goku's fight with kid Buu. He generalizes the idea of Goku being the strongest Saiyan and he even "avowed" that Goku is the strongest ever Saiyan. Your typical argument might be "Vegeta meant Goku is the strongest between the both of them", but wrong given that the statement is quite clear and the statement generalizes the idea by including all other Saiyans and Vegeta is aware of every other Saiyan's power such as Gohan and Gotenks. It's clear as day that Goku is intended to be the top strongest:



The Narrator states that The fight between Goku and Kid Buu will decide the fate of the Universe, as to say if Goku loses, Kid Buu will end the universe despite Gohan being there:



Yet again the Narrator states it again confirming that if Goku loses, Kid Buu will shit on the entire universe despite Gohan being there and could be brought to defeat Buu:



Heck, even the title of the chapter where the fight starts is titled the same thing, as to say that the Universe will be gone if Goku loses despite Gohan being there. Vegeta himself states that the Universe is at stake coming down to Goku vs Kid Buu:



Daizenshuu States that Goku's feelings are understood by his fellow strongest implying that the one who is understanding his "feelings" is the strongest ever which is Kid Buu in this instance. The Implification is quite clear that they're trying to tell us that Kid Buu Is the strongest being:



According to Daizenshuu, Goku's fight with kid Buu will decide the fate of the Universe and that if kid Buu wins, the universe will no longer have any future forevermore despite Gohan being there as a potential possibility:



For those who try to argue that Goku didn't want to fight Super Buu but he was fine with Kid Buu, then wrong because it is directly confirmed that it's due to Goku's Saiyan blood which made him so keen to fight Kid Buu and that's all:



The Daizenshuu yet reaffirms the argument about the universe being at stake is Goku loses by stating it again in which kid Buu would destroy everything without anyone being capable of stopping him despite Gohan being there:



In Battle of God's movie (works for DBS BoG as well), King Kai tells Vegeta that Goku lost to someone in two hits, and Vegeta started freaking out thinking that no one could stop him now at all. Vegeta doesn't know how much Goku got stronger at all so Vegeta freaking out that if Goku lost then everyone is doomed proves a lot about this issue. Vegeta thought it was completely hopeless because Goku lost. Even before the two hits were mentioned, Vegeta freaked his lungs out. Due to that, he thought doing anything stupid means the destruction of earth despite Gohan being there:



When Mr. Satan helped Goku gather all the energy from earth and took Vegeta off the field, Goku called him the "World's saviour". Why would he call him that if there is Gohan? According to Goku, he saved the world from kid Buu but the thing is that Kid Buu is supposedly to be weaker than Gohan so there are still many options, but no because Gohan is inferior to Kid Buu:



The Narrator further states that Kid Buu is the mightiest buu ever. But the comparison here is only Super Buu/Fat Buu and Buff Buu. These are the forms of Buu, and the rest are extras. The statement from the Narrator and everything else is comparing the "forms" of Buu. All the Buus are Fat Buu/Super Buu (they're the same, just that one is the good side and the other is the evil side), and Buff Buu. Buutenks and Buuhan are simple extras. Even if you add them, nothing changes, but Buuhan being above Kid Buu is evident enough as his power pushed Vegito yet according to Goku, He could solo kid Buu without even trying as Vegito. Still up to argument but the only approved forms of Buu are Buff Buu and Super Buu/Fat Buu aside from Kid Buu. These are his "forms". As Buuhan and Buutenks, he doesn't really change form at all:



The following is simply an issue which supports this point but either way, it still doesn't affect the topic at all

Goku is Stronger Than Fat Buu, and Fat Buu = Super Buu:



NOW BEFORE YOU JUMP THE GUNS JUDGEMENTALLLY, I will explain now why Super Buu is equal to Fat Buu. El Manga Legendario implies that Super Buu is equal to Fat Buu:



Spanish Text: "Sólo le divierte la destruccion El lado malvado de Bu se escindio de cuando se enfadó.Inicialmente era una forma csquelética, pero adquirió su complexión robusta al comerse al Bu original.Aunque Mister Satan logro que surgiera en Bu la noción del bien y el mal, esta forma carccc de cualquier atisbo de bondad y sólo busca el placer y la destrucción.Más tarde, temeroso del poder que había adquirido Gohan, buscó formas de haccrse mucho más fuerte."

English Text: "Only the destruction amuses Bu's evil side split off when he got angry. Initially it was a skeletal form, but it acquired its robust build by eating the original Bu. Although Mister Satan achieved that the notion of good and evil arose in Bu, this form of any hint of goodness seeks only pleasure and destruction. Later, fearful of the power that Gohan had acquired, he sought ways to make himself much stronger."

This page is listing out the differences between fat Buu and Super Buu. It never did say that Super Buu got stronger except got more dangerous and evil. But you know what? It says that Super Buu started getting stronger and to seek it ONLY AFTER GETTING BEATEN so not only strength is NOT rendered as a difference between fat Buu and Super Buu, the only time strength was mentioned to increase was when he absorbs stronger opponents ONLY. So here it is clearly implied that the only time Buu got stronger throughout the course of the plot, was when he started absorbing others ONLY. The same guide compares Super Buu to Fat Buu, and yet it only states that he's more evil and that power is not an issue at all:



Spanish Text: "Con su apariencia y forma de hablar infantil, Bu no dejaba de ser entranable pesar de ser un enemigo. Sin embargo, ocurrió algo que cambió de raiz esta concepción, y fue la aparición de la forma malvada de Bu. La ira provocó que escindiera su lado más oscuro Esta forma, que no conservaba ni rastro la inocencia de Bu, se comió a la oronda forma original y exteminó sin pestanear a todos los humanos que estaban cerca de él. En cierto modo, forma malvada es la antitesis de Bu en todas sus vertientes. De Cuerpo delgado, tiene una mirada fria penetrante y es capaz de lanzar gritos desgarradores. Su peligrosidad no tiene comparación con nada conocido. Su cambio de apariencia provocó inquietud, dado que su nuevo aspecto presagiaba un inminente enfrentamiento. De hecho, logró averiguar donde se encontraba el palacio de Kami-sama y desafió Piccolo y al resto de los luchadores, disparando tensión."

English Text: "With his appearance and way of talking to children, Bu did not cease to be worthy despite being an enemy. However, something happened that changed this conception, and it was the appearance of the evil form of Bu. Anger caused him to split his darker side. This form, which bore no trace of Bu's innocence, ate at the original original shape and expelled without blinking all the humans who were close to him. In a way, evil form is the antithesis of Bu in all its aspects. With a slim body, he has a piercing cold look and is capable of sending heart-wrenching cries. Its dangerousness has no comparison with anything known. His change of appearance caused concern, given that his new appearance presaged an imminent confrontation. In fact, he managed to find out where Kami-sama's palace was and challenged Piccolo and the rest of the fighters, triggering tension."

The only differences mentioned are evilness and nothing more and nothing less. Also, Super Buu is far Buu. Simply put: A toy is made up of two pieces which just split apart, you reconstructed the same toy in a different shape, and now you got the same toy but different shape. This is Super Buu. He is Fat Buu but in a different shape and is simply more evil. That's all. It makes zero sense for Super Buu to be above Fat Buu despite them being the same material. People keep saying that Super Buu is far beyond Goku, but I'll prove why that's wrong now. Daizenshuu States that Buff Buu is only SOMEWHAT stronger than Fat Buu:



ONLY SOMEWHAT STRONGER THAN FAT BUU. Somewhat stronger means slightly of a little bit stronger. That's all. NOTHING contradicts Daizenshuu. In fact, El Manga Legendario doesn't state a difference in power much between Buff Buu and Fat Buu despite the guide comparing the differences between all the main forms of Buu, implying the difference to be very slight indeed:



Spanish Text: "Así creó Bibidi a Bu. Despiadado y sin corazón, sólo existía para sembrar el caos y la destrucción. Una forma de pura maldad que ignoraba las órde- nes de su propio creador. Después absorbera kalo Shin del Los Kaio Shin trataron de hacer frente a Bu, pero todos fueron exterminados, con la ex- cepción del joven Kaio Shin del Este.Al únicoli que absorbió fue al Kaio Shin del Sur, el más fuerte de todos, y su aspecto cambió a una forma más corpulenta y musculosa. Al incorporar al apacible Dai Kaio Shin, Bu sufrió una transformación espectacular.Empezó a tener sentimientos y a co municarse con los demás. Ésta es la forma con la que Bibidi pudo por fin controlar a Bu."

English Text: "That is how Bibidi created Bu. Ruthless and heartless, it only existed to sow chaos and destruction. A form of pure evil that ignored the orders of its own creator. [Kaio Shin] They tried to face Bu, but all were exterminated, with the exception of the young Kaio Shin from the East. The only one that absorbed was the Kaio Shin of the South, the strongest of all, and his appearance changed to a more corpulent and muscular form. By incorporating the gentle Dai Kaio Shin, Bu underwent a dramatic transformation. He began to have feelings and to communicate with others. This is the way Bibidi was finally able to control Bu."

So Buff Buu is only WHATSOEVER SLIGHTLY stronger than Fat Buu. Buff Buu > Super Buu and this is a confirmed fact. It is confirmed that even if you are using a power near to your full power (like 90% out of 100% or some shit), it is NOWHERE NEAR your true power. This implies that small difference in power could mean a lot, yet look at Buff Buu only SOMEWHAT above him despite this fact:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

So Basically, putting out close to full power is nowhere near full power. Yet despite all that Buff Buu is only considered somewhat stronger even though this rule exists. Meaning the difference is so slight it ain't funny. Yet Ssj3 Goku could stomp Fat Buu. He literally can which is shown and proven in El Manga Legendario.

Your common argument would be "Super Buu is above Fat Buu being Goku could fight Fat Buu but not Super Buu". But wrong. Goku originally gave everyone the impression that he is weaker than Fat Buu:



In Dragon Ball Kai, Kaioshin tells Gohan that Goku won't defeat Fat Buu so Kaioshin and Gohan both have the impression that Goku is inferior to even FAT BUU:



Goku clearly tells Piccolo that he can't defeat Fat Buu:



The reason Piccolo asks Goku is not that he believes Goku is Stronger Than Buu. Piccolo never expected Goku to hide such power in the first place so when he sensed this he was curious about it only. In fact, Piccolo states that Goku's Ssj3 Power is beyond what he could ever imagine which made him eager to ask. Piccolo's statement implies that he can't scale Goku's Ssj3 Power correctly due to its high input, so it's logical for him to ask Goku:



And despite Fat Buu being only slightly below Buff Buu and Super Buu supposedly being equal to him, Piccolo states it's a miracle for Gotenks to win against Super Buu:



He even thinks it's impossible for Gotenks to win later on as a Ssj which forces him to destroy the ROSAT door. Piccolo believes that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu by far, and Gotenks Pre ROSAT can't be above Ssj3 Goku because Piccolo believes that Gotenks needs training yet, but if he's above Goku then He doesn't need training because it's a confirmed fact that Goku is above Fat Buu:



Goku's statement from Super Buu also makes it sound that Goku wanted to fuse with Vegeta only due to his childish demeanour. Goku wanted to fuse with Gohan and Vegeta, yet he has Ssj3. Even if Ssj3 drains his Ki, Goku confirms that he could have obliterated Fat Buu in the little time he had and reduce him to atoms which is only done if you're astronomically beyond the other opponent:



So if Goku could end Buu completely without the need of fusion, then Goku's suggestion makes no sense. This completely relates to The Super Buu case as in Dragon Ball Kai, Goku tells Vegeta that no matter how much Buu reverts back (legit saying that even if fat Buu returns he'd lose, which is contradictory), he'll be inferior:



Goku's childish demeanour plays a huge role. This is clearly portrayed in the Manga:



If Super Buu was a thread to Goku's life and that he can't stop him, then he'd try his BEST to beat Super Buu, yet his response was never to be Ssj3:



Goku believes he can bust a hole through Super Buu without Buu being able to stop him, and no he wasn't bluffing at all. He was dead serious and expressive enough. Heck, he and Vegeta were shocked that itbwasba failure to bust hole through Super Buu then Goku says that the only way to escape is to go past Super Buu which Goku calmly says:



You might argue that Gohan's and Piccolo's reaction to Super Buu is different than Fat Buu, but wrong because without any evidence to back up these reactions then they are useless. Also, Goku's reaction doesn't relate to power at all and it could be related to Super Buu's Ki being more evil and same goes for Gohan and Piccolo which is later shown. Piccolo is shocked because Super Buu is far more evil which makes sense given that Super Buu kills almost all humans in a single moment and then wanted to fight the instant he found the z fighters. Also, if you want to argue that reactions are relevant, then you might as well argue that Ssj3 Goku > Super Buu because everyone's reaction about Ssj3 Goku was greater than Super Buu.



Also, the power up which Super Buu received was from Evil Buu/Gray Buu, who's weaker than Fat Buu. So this sudden increase in power is only relevant when it comes to comparing Super Buu to Evil Buu who's far weaker than Fat Buu, so the increase which Evil Buu received is unquantifiable. Thus, using it to justify an increase in strength is absolute headcanon. Krillin asking Piccolo about whether Gotenks could beat Super Buu or not is him simply overreacting unless proven otherwise given the current situation here. Krillin is also unreliable in the Buu Saga, such that he thought Kaioshin is an absolute fodder. So we need a confirmation to suggest any reliability or otherwise it's rendered as a simple form of overreacting.

If you want to argue that Super Buu got stronger even after all that due to his Evil side taking control, then kid Buu is also stronger than Super Buu because Akira Toriyama confirmed that What increases Ki is also one's own True character so EITHER way you're not supported at all.

Super Buu = Fat Buu, and absolutely nothing suggests otherwise.

In Dragon Ball Super, the very first page of the chapter, states that Kid Buu is the greatest enemy of all and that due to him, earth was in a crisis despite Gohan being there:



It also suggests that peace was only restored when Kid Buu died, yet if Gohan is Stronger Than Kid Buu then there'd be nothing to worry about:



In Dragon Ball Super (Both the anime and manga), Goten depicts Goku as the strongest being there is and he has never been seen to be anywhere unreliable:



So according to both continuities, Goku is the strongest, being clarified further better by the Anime. Also, it's already stated that Absorptions in general lower Buu's power (Only kais), and this is supported by Dabura as he implies it perfectly as well:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”



In Dragon Ball Super Manga, Goku does image training imagining the strongest foes to appear given each arc as depicted and conveyed: Final Form Frieza, then Super Perfect Cell, then Kid Buu. Goku wouldn't imagine an inferior being at all, as that's as illogical as the earth being flat:



Goku tells Goten that he is training because he never knows whether an opponent as strong as Buu would come. This is an obvious Imification to Kid Buu. It can't be Fat Buu because Goku is factually above him; It can't be Super Buu because both Gohan and Gotenks are there who are confirmed to be above Super Buu; Buff Buu barely had any screen time so basing him off without any interaction is an absolute speculation; It is Kid Buu because this is the only form who was always being referenced as the absolute strongest most dangerous villain who could beat everybody. Kid Buu even pictures kid Buu in his vision, yet Goku believes they need to train to beat buu, treating him as if he's a threat (he specifically says "as strong as buu") despite Gohan being around:



In Dragon Ball Xenoverse, Gohan and Kid Buu were shown to be fighting and Gohan unable to beat Kid Buu with Patroller's help, struggling with Kid Buu far more than Super Buu and Trunks treating Kid Buu as a big deal. Gohan even fails to stop Kid Buu's blast and everything. Dragon Ball Xenoverse Is directly checked and supervised by Akira Toriyama about its content. The credits for Akira Toriyama is exactly similar to that of Battle of Gods and Revival of F, so Xenoverse is checked for its In-Universe scaling by Akira Toriyama directly:



Akira Toriyama directly states that Goku is the strongest character in the Universe which includes Gohan. Author's words > anything else:



Kaioshin calls Kid Buu the strongest Buu ever, and he knows more than absolutely anyone:



Dende witnessed Goku's and Gohan's power, yet when he sees that Goku is inferior to Kid Buu, he says that the world is devastated by Buu despite Gohan being there. This proves two things: 1) Goku is the strongest and if "even Goku" can't beat Buu, no one Will. And 2) Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan since because if Goku loses, Kid Buu will devastate the Universe yet Gohan could be brought to fight him, yet that wasn't the case, and since Kid Buu > Gohan, thid automatically puts Kid Buu > Super Buu:



This is supported by Sheuisha's description about Volume 42 Which herms translated, in which it is implied that the fate of the Universe is at stake because "Even Ssj3 Goku" can't beat Kid Buu. The description makes Goku seem to be the strongest as it describes him as the only one who might do something Buu yet he fails himself which makes the fate of the world be more at risk:

http://books.shueisha.co.jp/CGI/search/ ... 0-9&mode=1



Old Kai answers Dende back and implies that Goku never showed his true power ever until now, and that Goku was only gauging Kid Buu's power, thinking that Goku will be able to deal with things:



Goku claims that if he doesn't go all out and that if he loses to Kid Buu, the universe will go "poof" and that no one will be able to stop him:

Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6
Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo
Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”


Goku tells Vegeta that Kid Buu is stronger than everyone he ever fought, and Goku fought Super Buu in the anime and went up against Buuhan. Kind of cool right? It's like proven thousands of times and supported yet people decide to ditch all these proofs:



In an interview with Yūsuke Watanabe, he claimed that he was in a meeting with everybody involved in the BoG Movie project and that they had an argument about having a being above Ssj3 Goku. So BoG script went under the fact that Ssj3 Goku is the strongest being and that they wanted someone stronger. They didn't say "Oh we have Gohan", but instead they wanted someone stronger than Goku in general. Even if you try to argue that it only meant the form, you could always be debunked by the fact that the only characters who got Ssj3 are Gotenks and Goku, !Gotenks is confirmed to be weaker than Gohan unlike Goku (Which is quite the opposite). They described Ssj3 as a certain "being", and the one who gets SsjG in the end is Goku so it should refer to him:



According to Kaioshin, Buff Buu and Kid Buu are equally dangerous. He doesn't differentiate between Buff Buu and Kid Buu in regards to who's more dangerous at all. According to him, his dangerousness has lowered due to the Dai Kaioshin only, but Buff Buu is equally dangerous to Kid Buu:



Yet when it comes to who's more troublesome and difficult to deal with, Kid Buu is directly stated to be the one who takes the win, despite both forms being equally dangerous. You might argue about Kid Buu's unpredictability, but wrong. That unpredictability is the main relation to his Dangerousness, which completely should be similar to Buff Buu given both Buus are equally dangerous:



Kid Buu's power is superior to go the Spirit Bomb which contains as much energy to be gathered as possible and is considered to be the strongest thing there is as I showed earlier. Some of you will say that it is stronger than Kid Buu because Goku didn't have the energy to push it:

Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P8.2
Context: as Boo stops the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “I didn’t pla-plan on this…! Kakarot doesn’t have the sta-stamina to fire that all-important Genki-Dama…!”


But wrong as this doesn't prove anything at all. Goku was already happy enough that he threw it at Kid Buu in base form, and Kid Buu even struggled. If the Spirit Bomb was shit weak because there wasn't any push, then Kid Buu wouldn't need to struggle like he did at all. In DBS we got some confirmations for follow. Goku thought that the Genki-Dama in DBS is enough against Jiren. EVEN THOUGH HE WAS IN BASE, it was more thought as an attack which depends on your strength to increase its power, and not that it needs constant pushing. This confirms that Super Genki-Dama pre Goku's energy < Kid Buu:



In fact, when Goku threw the Spirit Bomb towards Kid Buu, Kid Buu tried to blast it but FAILED meaning Goku push in base form has NOTHING to do with his power. Kid Buu managing to push this horde of Ki is a legit amazing feat:



Also, just because Goku didn't push it well doesn't mean anything. Goku threw the Spirit Bomb at Frieza and no longer pushed it AT ALL. Heck, he had no stamina at all which is worse than with Kid Buu, yet Frieza failed to stop the Spirit Bomb. Frieza couldn't push the Spirit Bomb yet he can survive it. Durability > Attack potency. But Kid Buu managed to push the Spirit Bomb and overpower it which also means he can survive it. Kid Buu failed to survive it ONLY AFTER Goku goes Ssj (he ONLY needed Regular Ssj). Goku provided no push for the Spirit Bomb against Frieza and it still worked as if there was no difference:



So Basically Kid Buu overpowered this Spirit Bomb. And Hey, the Spirit Bomb is unbelievably powerful. Just gathering a small amount of energy from a limited amount of area could be far beyond planet busting. For example, a small amount of energy from Earth could stop Oozaru Vegeta whose power level is 180,000. Heck even in DBS, the Spirit Bomb gathered from everyone in Universe 7 (without Vegeta's energy) is far beyond SsjB Kaioken x20 Goku who got asswhooped by Jiren and yet Goku thought the Spirit Bomb will beat Jiren.

Well, the main argument starts now though. Did Goku take everyone's KI or GENKI? Well, I delayed the answer till now so it's time to answer it.

It is Ki. It is stated multiple times that Goku will gather Ki from everybody. Vegeta states that he will gather as much Ki as possible from everybody (Ironically Goku always says Genki while Vegeta says Ki, at some points however Goku does say Ki);



Goku and everybody else say that they are getting Ki, not Genki, so Goku himself is saying that he is getting their Ki and not Genki. Everyone is saying "Ki" and even Goku does except at some points. Goku is cherrypicking the words to use it seems which is contradictory. Everyone is saying Ki, so they're gathering Ki:



In DBZ, a "Ki Blast" is a blast which is thrown by materializing all the internal ENERGY. The Spirit Bomb certainly takes all of the target's energy:



According to Akira Toriyama's conclusion on the matter, what's inside one's body which makes his "aura" is Ki and not Genki. You can't take someone's Genki because Genki cannot be seen or even outputted like a "Ki Blast" going by DBZ terms. Akira himself states that Genki is something spiritual, and that Babidi's measuring devices measure Ki and not Genki. This is Akira Toriyama's words. According to King Kai, if Goku takes more energy from humans they will die. But that's not possible if it was only taking Genki. Akira Toriyama says that some people are healthy yet have no Energy/Genki. So if it is taking in Genki, the humans wouldn't have to die at all. Ki is also one's own life force, so it would make more sense for it to be about taking Ki rather than Genki which is further supported by Gohan:



For the people who say that Goku and Vegeta said that Kid Buu is weaker than before, no you're wrong. According to the translation they judged Kid Buu by appearance rather than Ki:



Even Goku and Vegeta later admit that they underestimated Kid Buu and that Kid Buu was only "lollygagging" throughout the fight with Goku:



Goku being able to kill Buu if he takes 1 minute is the same thing as saying Piccolo is charging for Makankosappo. The more said attack is charged, the stronger it is. Goku wants to charge his Ki as much as possible and then hit Kid Buu with it, but that's not Goku's full power, that's beyond it given it's been stated multiple times that Goku had already used his full power and here's an Instance other than the Manga and Guides:



It's settled. Kid Buu > Super Buu and Ssj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan are factual material. THE END.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by House of Balloons » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
House of Balloons wrote:
I'll be proving that Ssj3 Goku from the Buu Saga is above Ultimate Gohan and that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu and probably the strongest Buu.

According to Vegeta on Episode 2 from Dragon Ball Super, Vegeta states that Goku is the undisputed number 1 in the entire universe EVER since the Buu Saga AFTER Buu was killed. Vegeta is implying that Goku is by far the strongest in the ENTIRE universe, which includes Gohan (mind you this is all recent information which is also backed up by hundreds of sources). According to Vegeta, Goku is the strongest ever, AFTER Buu has died. Meaning Kid Buu is stronger than Goku, who is stronger than anybody else. Vegeta here was ONLY referencing Buu Saga Goku, and Vegeta references BoG Goku ONLY after stating that Goku is the undisputed strongest when he says "even now he keeps training", which suggests that Goku is the strongest:

Number 1 in terms of being the best fighter, it is not necessarily tied with strength as the other statements within the manga AND anime prove otherwise. Goku himself admitted to Gotenks being stronger in both the manga AND the anime.

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Moot point, because they rarely fight in a way to gang up on them. IF he implied they needed to gang up on Kid Buu, why wouldn't Goku, Vegeta, AND Fat Buu fight him at the same time? El Manga confirms Gotenks or Gohan would have been more than sufficient to defeat him. Vegeta offering an alternative has nothing to do with the power between Kid Buu and the Gotenks or Gohan.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Later on, Vegeta starts his speech and then says that he needs AS MUCH ENERGY AS POSSIBLE to defeat Buu. This is after Vegeta refused to bring Gohan and Gotenks and then starts saying that they need as much energy as possible from everybody. Vegeta does know about Gohan and Gotenks, and note that Vegeta SPECIFICALLY says that everyone's UTMOST energy is needed to beat Kid Buu, and NOTHING ELSE:

You do realize genki is not the same as raw ki, right? They work in a different manner. The vast majority of people they got energy from was humans, namekians, and some people in the afterlife. I guess since they gathered genki from more people means it is stronger than the one that was used against Zamasu? The people who offered their genki have zero knowledge about ki, meaning that they work far different. Regardless, Kid Buu got no-diffed by the spirit bomb as even MSSJ Goku was able to push it on his own. As I said, Goku was never able to power up fully as a SSJ3, and if I recall correctly, Goku even admitted to holding back to give Vegeta a turn in the anime.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku himself reaffirms Vegeta's statement and states again that he needs ALL OF EVERYONE'S energy. The key word here is "All". Why would everyone's "All" be needed if one is more than enough? Your typical argument might be about Genki and Ki, but I'll prove why Genki Dama takes Ki in general later on:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So whatever energy they father from everyone to their fullest will be above any other option there is, and without that, Kid Buu would beat everybody and no one could stop him, including Gohan and Gotenks as shown now. Vegeta claims that the world will end because Kid Buu say Vegeta and the Spirit Bomb. Why is it the end if there's someone out there who could get rid of Kid Buu? Lmao this is more than obvious at this point:

Image

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Completely ignoring the fact that scaling and statement proves Super Buu ALONE is stronger than Kid Buu. Buutenks, who has memories of his past incarnations (like saying he remembered Goku and Vegeta, hell, even Hercule), STATES that he is the most powerful Majin in both the anime AND the manga. IF Kid Buu> Super Buu, why would Goku admit him and SSJ2 Vegeta would be unable to defeat him? Why would Vegeta admit to their situation being bad and Goku implying they would need fusion to defeat Super Buu.


Are you trying to imply the spirit bomb> Vegito?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]


So Gohan and Piccolo~ Heck even the kids, are sensing the battle. So Gohan's statement has a huge basis towards it and he concedes to his inferiority to Kid Buu. Dragon Ball Forever DIRECTLY states that Goku fights a powered up buu in comparison to previous one which is buff buu. Buff Buu is superior to Super Buu and that much is already confirmed:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

"Goku engaged in combat without Fusion. He battles a powered-up Majin Boo with Super Saiyan 3!"

Even The reaction of Kaioshin differs when Kid Buu is shown, yet with super buu he's happy. Happy for what? For Goku and Vegeta to die? Kaioshin is aware that Gohan and the rest are unconscious as he SAW THEM being knocked out after being released. So Goku's statement contradicts things here. Kid Buu is more dangerous? Yes sure but there's NO REASON to be more scared of him if he's far weaker than Super Buu because no matter how dangerous he is, if he's so much inferior to Super Buu then there's no reason to be afraid of him, given that Kaioshin isn't scared of super buu now that he's back:

Complete headcanon and misinterpreting the quotes. Gohan at no point implies he is weaker than Kid Buu. He is merely trying to get the others to help them culminate their energy You do realize the kais had NEVER encountered Super Buu before? Even though it is confirmed he is above Pure Fat Buu who is stronger than Good Buu?

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Image[/spoiler]

Your argument might be that Goku said Kid Buu is weak because Goku and Vegeta said they can handle him right? Wrong again because according to the Japanese translation literally from herms, Goku and Vegeta were talking about his SIZE:

Nope, not only size. They comment about his ki as he is turning back to normal.


Image

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.


In Dragon Ball Super, It's stated that Goku became the greatest hero of earth and that he started to get bored because there's no one there to fight him and make him enjoy himself and that he wants to fight stronger enemies and characters yet if Gohan and Gotenks are above Goku, then Goku wouldn't be bored and he would have something to look forward to. Yes that IS an worthy point to mention as this reaffirms the earlier statement in the following scan that Goku became the greatest hero and now he's bored yet at the same time it's stating that Goku wants to fight stronger opponents, yet there are Gohan and Gotenks which aren't on the list at all. This confirms Vegeta's statement of Goku being the strongest:

Moot point because Buuhan> Base Vegito who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Buuhan even admits to toying with Base Vegito in the anime. So you believe that SSJ3 Goku> Base Vegito? That's what you'd be implying regardless of which multiplier you use.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

El Manga Legendario states that Goku reached a level no Saiyan has ever reached. You might argue that this is talking about Ssj3, but wrong because if it's talking about Ssj3 then Gotenks would have been included as he also is a Saiyan and achieved Ssj3. Yet the guide clearly says Goku reached a level no Saiyan ever Did, and this is hinted to be power-wise because directly afterwards the guide references Goku's power:

Yet that summary is speaking about Goku while he fights Fat Buu, which is before Goku even mentions fusion to them and it's also before Gotenks even appears, much less fights Super Buu to obtain his own Super Saiyan 3.


Goku and Vegeta DID UNDERESTIMATE KID BUU. Kid Buu released a blast that according to Goku, he cannot stop even with Ssj3 and he thought trying is meaningless. Suddenly he wants to fight Kid Buu, but the reason is clear as day as he said it, because Goku wants to fight him "one on one" and look "cool" as he later confirms:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_mVmZgtsPQ

Goku was in SSJ-SSJ2 when he admitted he couldn't stop the attack. So, you think he can't stop that small attack as a SSJ3, yet he pushed Kid Buu in their battle to charge a kamehameha which Goku even survived? I guess a small ki blast> charged kamehameha?

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It is directly stated that Vegeta and Goku both underestimated Kid Buu and that He was playing with them in the Kaioshin Realm. Vegeta even confirms that he underestimated Kid Buu after fighting buu as he admits it in which he gets surprised Goku is fighting a being like that and this was AFTER stating that Goku is the only being who could fight him:

He was the only one THERE that was actually present there to fight him.


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This is kind of similar to Goku's statement to Super Buu. He says he can't beat him, yet he did say the same thing when Kid Buu tried to blast earth yet Goku believes he will manage something and that he could manage a beating. More to that is the fact that Goku already said before that he can't beat Fat Buu in the same manner. Goku says he can't beat Super Buu, yet when super buu comes by, Goku responds with transforming to only Super Saiyan and believes he can escape or get past Super Buu. In Dragon ball Kai, as probably everyone knows, it is stated that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu by Goku:

Yet why would he admit he would have needed potara to fight Super Buu?

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

It's confirmed narrative wise that Kid Buu was a threat to Earth who would have destroyed it Despite Gohan being there:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So, just because they are a threat means they are stronger? So, since Frieza was a threat to Namek despite Goku being there, means Frieza is stronger, no? I guess since Cell was a threat to the Earth despite Gohan being there means Cell is stronger, even though it is confirmed Gohan>Cell?

Daizenshuu States that the battle between Goku and Kid Buu is a fight with the universe at stake, if kid Buu wins the universe is gone, despite Gohan chilling in afterlife eating cookies and could be called anytime:

Image

Image

Image

Yet there is no timeframe given, and if the whole universe was at stake why would Goku say that after they defeat Kid Buu that they could restore everything with the dragon balls? If he was a danger to the universe, why was Supreme Kai only concerned with him destroying planets? Why is it that Vegeta stated it was to decide the fate of the galaxy?

Image

Image

I guess Frieza and Broly are universal for also being universal threats.

Why is it that Super Buuhan who PUSHED Super Vegito to power up to stop his vice shout couldn't one shot the universe and needed a chain reaction to do so? You implying Kid Buu is stronger would imply that you believe Kid Buu> Buuhan> Base Vegito even though Goku was confident they could take on Kid Buu on their own, yet claimed they would need potara against Super Buu.



[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

When Mr. Satan helped Goku gather all the energy from earth and took Vegeta off the field, Goku called him the "World's saviour". Why would he call him that if there is Gohan? According to Goku, he saved the world from kid Buu but the thing is that Kid Buu is supposedly to be weaker than Gohan so there are still many options, but no because Gohan is inferior to Kid Buu:

Because Goku has been consistently the one who has saved the Earth and protected it. Gohan is not and was never meant to replace Goku on that mantle.

Image

If Super Buu=Fat Buu, why would this state he got a super power up?
Then why would SSJ Gotenks> SSJ3 Goku, yet Super Buu>=SSJ3 Gotenks?
Why would Goku admit him and Vegeta together can't defeat Super Buu yet having fought him at the SAME time?


[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Goku clearly tells Piccolo that he can't defeat Fat Buu:

Image

Yet Goku admits that he could have defeated Fat Buu, he just wanted the next generation to do it themselves.

Goku's childish demeanour plays a huge role. This is clearly portrayed in the Manga:

[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

If Super Buu was a thread to Goku's life and that he can't stop him, then he'd try his BEST to beat Super Buu, yet his response was never to be Ssj3:

>yet he shit his pants as Buutenks rushed towards him and DEMANDED Gohan should put the earring on, proving Buutenks> Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Goku


Toriyama himself in the own interview you showed said "BLANK" COOL: Goku. Goku is the best fighter and was the protector of the Earth. Him being stronger is debunked by his own statements regarding Gotenks and the other Buus.

Also, your point regarding Super Buu and Fat Buu, in that El Manga scan, nowhere is it implied that he didn't get stronger. The anime itself, the manga, statements, and the chapter summary itself says Buu got a super power up.

Literally the rest of the bible is full of out of context and nitpicking of the statements.

Image

Also, again. If Kid Buu> Buuhan>Base Vegito, why would Super Vegito power up to stop his vice shout? Why would Buuhan toy around with Base Vegito?

Just the MERE fact Buuhan> Base Vegito debunks the notion that Goku was the strongest and that he was facing the strongest Buu.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Unless you think a 400x, well technically 4,000x multiplier for SSJ3 is higher than AxB or >4,000x Base Goku for Base Vegito alone and then stacking a 500x multiplier for MSSJ.
NOT even mentioning he also has a rival boost on top of that.

I have more statements, more consistent showings, and concise scaling to prove that Super Buu> Kid Buu, and even then Buutenks himself states he is the strongest one, and Buuhan was stronger than Base Vegito.

Therefore, Buuhan is the strongest Buu and not Kid Buu.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:31 am

Not at all. Not getting into specifics on the inumerable statements that can easily be interpreted on many different ways, losing all his absorbtions should make Boo weaker, not stronger. If Boo's absorbtions make him weaker, then what's the point?

It would make sense from a narrative point of view for Boo to be the strongest villian as he's the final, endgame foe. Everything points towards Pure Boo being one of the weakest Boos though, and it's made even clear that Pure Boo is not the strongest Boo when most, if not all, of the Pure Boo > Super Boo supporters can be identified as trolls or fanboys and the most known ones (Not getting into names here, but some people should know) are banned on most forums.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:17 am

It makes most sense for Super Buu (Gohan absorbed) to be the strongest form of Buu. It's established that Buu absorbs stronger foes when he is backed into a corner. If his strongest form was his pure form, it would make no sense to absorb anyone. I could see, though, how absorbing that fat kai would make him weaker. The kai's kind nature, combined with his laziness and unfit body, pacified Buu. I expect that's why Evil Buu (the grey and skinny one) was more powerful than Fat Buu. He didn't have those traits weighing him down.

Also, note that Buu's forms all represent a different age group: Fat Buu (infant), Kid Buu (child), Super Buu (young adult), and Evil Buu (elderly man). A young adult is at his peak, fully grown, full of energy, and with limited health problems. So of course thw Buu form with the physique of a fit young adult male would be the strongest. This also explains why the Elder Kai says that Kid Buu is the most dangerous. Kids are unpredictable and irrational (to varying degrees, depending on their level of development). They often make emotional decisions without stopping to think about the consequences. For example, blowing up an entire planet while still standing on it.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by sintzu » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:51 am

Super Buu had another Buu inside him (Fat Buu) while Kid Buu was a single being so it makes sense for Super Buu to be stronger, although it's not that big of a gap.

In terms of Gray buu, I think he's the same being as Kid Buu but needed the Fat Buu to go back to normal which was his original form so by the time Vegeta pulled him out of Super Buu's system he had gained enough power to switch back to normal.

I think the order of Buus is :

Buff Buu : He had the strongest Kai within him.
Buuhan : He had the 2nd strongest Saiyan within him.
Buutenks : He had the 3rd strongest Saiyan within him.
PiccoloBuu : He had the smartest fighter within him.
Super Buu : He had Fat Buu within him.
Kid Buu : He was a lone being with no one in him.
Gray Buu : I think he's a very weakened Kid Buu.
Fat Buu : That good hearted Kai weakened him.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:11 pm

To cut in, there is a confirmation fallacy i see a lot that I wish would get cleared up. That just because a character says a villain "will destroy the Universe", it does not instantly confirm them to be universal busting or that they can one-shot the universe. Its headcanon logic that peeves me a bit as its abused by powerscalers all the time. Its obvious when a character says another character "will" destroy the universe, they just mean they are a threat to everything known to exist. Its very obvious from the screencap with Piccolo & North Kai. I don't believe Broly & Freeza are universal. Nothing supports this. Not even kid Buu.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:21 pm

Could you please be more neater when you're making your arguments? I can barely keep up with your inorganized reply
House of Balloons wrote:Arguing about Genki and Ki
I'm not going to reply to this because you basically blatantly butchered my part of the argument which already debunks you Your argument Is a complete horde of speculation regarding this topic. You're also trying to use an outlier feat which in itself is unusable. The burden of proof is on you to prove that The Spirit Bomb is not Ki and that The spirit bomb argument is wrong which I already debunked you on above.

You also ignored the refutes I gave You, so I'll assume you simply concede.
House of balloons wrote:[spoiler]Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]
So now you're repeating what you said? So you indirectly admit that you're ignoring my refute? This is a concession I guess.
House of balloons wrote:
Completely ignoring the fact that scaling and statement proves Super Buu ALONE is stronger than Kid Buu.


You saying that without any Basis is honestly irrelavent here if you fail to back any of it. You also failed to refute any of my first points, so I take it you also concede on these parts?

House of balloons wrote:Buutenks, who has memories of his past incarnations (like saying he remembered Goku and Vegeta, hell, even Hercule), STATES that he is the most powerful Majin in both the anime AND the manga


That's irrelevant. I already refuted this, Buutenks has absolutely no knowledge of Kid Buu unless you prove it to me now. According to Super Buu, Kid Buu is not even Super Buu, so there's no way he'd have any knowledge about him, but uh, you ignored that.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P7.3-6
Context: Vegeta grabs good Boo’s pod and wonders what will happen if he pulls it out
Vegeta: “This’ll be fun…Will you turn back into this fatso? Or will you become that scrawny guy? …Either way, it seems that your power will doubtlessly fall below what it is now.”
Boo: “Sto-stop it! Do-don’t touch that! Hands off!”
Vegeta: “Kukkukku…You seem even more panicked than I expected…Apparently it will be quite unfavorable for you…”
Boo: “Th-that’s the only one you mustn’t tear out…! I-I’ll stop being me!”
Goku: “’I’ll stop being me’…?”

Vegeta: “That sounds interesting…Did you really think I’d listen to you?”


You have to prove why Would super buu have memories of himself as Kid Buu, rather than repeating the same debunked argument.

House of Balloons wrote:IF Kid Buu> Super Buu, why would Goku admit him and SSJ2 Vegeta would be unable to defeat him? Why would Vegeta admit to their situation being bad and Goku implying they would need fusion to defeat Super Buu.
Apparently you ignored that part from the refute I gave You, so you should try to cover that up. Don't ignore stuff bro, you messed a whole lot. This question is invalid
House of Balloons wrote:Are you trying to imply the spirit bomb> Vegito?
I don't exactly what you're trying to suggest here. Nothing of my explanation even suggests that, so your remark is null bud. You still haven't refuted the spirit bomb part.
House of Balloons wrote:Complete headcanon and misinterpreting the quotes. Gohan at no point implies he is weaker than Kid Buu.


You clearly ignored the fact that Gohan has conceded to his inferiority. Look, if you're going to ignore my argument then This is over. Take your time, you don't need to answer me fast. If you take your time, then that'll be beneficial for You.

House of Balloons wrote:He is merely trying to get the others to help them culminate their energy You do realize the kais had NEVER encountered Super Buu before? Even though it is confirmed he is above Pure Fat Buu who is stronger than Good Buu?


Super Buu and Fat Buu are the same material and they are implied to be equal actually, and nothing suggests otherwise. Here you go down and ignore the post I gave You. Thing is, whether the Kai's met Super Buu or not is absolutely irrelevant, so you have to explain your points rather than typing a lot without any quality.

House of Balloons wrote:
Nope, not only size. They comment about his ki as he is turning back to normal.


[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]


Chuck, show me where does it say anything about Ki, now. You still haven't refuted the fact that the translation is talking about size and not Ki, and this is a fact:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.


The burden of proof is on you. All you did is post me a scan of Vegeta saying that they could manage something by judging him by his SIZE despite the fact that they later admit that they underestimated Kid Buu even after seeing Kid Buu destroying earth:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.6
Vegeta: “The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed by Boo]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…”

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.6-7
Context: after one of Goku’s attacks damages Boo
Goku: “That bastard…Even though he can quickly return to normal, he’s playing around by purposefully drawing it out…
*Boo is clearly lollygagging*


Your point holds no value here.

House of Balloons wrote:Moot point because Buuhan> Base Vegito who is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.


According to Old Kai, base Gokhan could one shot Buutenks and there's absolutely no proof that Buuhan is far beyond Buutenks In any form or shape, given Gotenks and Gohan don't have that much of a difference in power at all. El Manga Legendario states that Base Vegito > Base Gokhan:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

So your point is completely invalid. All that burden of proof is falling on you.

House of Balloons wrote:Buuhan even admits to toying with Base Vegito in the anime. So you believe that SSJ3 Goku> Base Vegito? That's what you'd be implying regardless of which multiplier you use.


Show me proof that Vegito is inferior to Buuhan, now. I'm waiting.

House of Balloons wrote:
Yet that summary is speaking about Goku while he fights Fat Buu, which is before Goku even mentions fusion to them and it's also before Gotenks even appears, much less fights Super Buu to obtain his own Super Saiyan 3.


Nice Asspull logic because the guide is quite general on the matter Here. If You want to claim that the guide is only talking about a specific time point, then the Gohan and Gotenks vs Kid Buu page is only talking about when Kid Buu was first revealed and underestimated by Goku and Vegeta, so your logic is flawed. You have yet to prove that the page here is only talking about that time point rather than generalizing the case (your point is invalid either way tbh)

Goku and Vegeta DID UNDERESTIMATE KID BUU. Kid Buu released a blast that according to Goku, he cannot stop even with Ssj3 and he thought trying is meaningless. Suddenly he wants to fight Kid Buu, but the reason is clear as day as he said it, because Goku wants to fight him "one on one" and look "cool" as he later confirms:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_mVmZgtsPQ

House of Balloons wrote:Goku was in SSJ-SSJ2 when he admitted he couldn't stop the attack. So, you think he can't stop that small attack as a SSJ3, yet he pushed Kid Buu in their battle to charge a kamehameha which Goku even survived? I guess a small ki blast> charged kamehameha?


Um, What? What you just said is absolutely illogical. Goku clearly says he can't stop it:

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P8.7
Context: Boo forms a big ki blast
Goku: “It-it’s huge…! You’ve got to be kidding…! Do-does he intend to unleash that…!? …We can’t knock back something like that…!”


The earth's future is at stake Here, and the lives of Gohan and Co are too. You telling me Goku won't go Ssj3 to stop kid Buu? Goku was shown capable of transforming to Ssj3 instantly if he needed, so your point is dust here that even a normie could counter

House of Balloons wrote:
He was the only one THERE that was actually present there to fight him.


Prove that Goku is the only one there. Prove that Gohan isn't in afterlife and that he can't he brought back despite Vegeta getting previlage to keep his body, yet according to You, somehow Gohan hasn't maintained his body. Ironically Gohan afterwards confirms his inferiority. You are simply ignoring everything which debunks You, so This is not an obvious concession.

House of Balloons wrote:Yet why would he admit he would have needed potara to fight Super Buu?


Stop ignoring everything and going back in circles. If you're not properly answering me then you lost Chuck.

House of Balloons wrote:So, just because they are a threat means they are stronger? So, since Frieza was a threat to Namek despite Goku being there, means Frieza is stronger, no?


Yes. Frieza at that point was stronger than Goku by far that he could flinch him. When Goku went Ssj, it was almost over until we knew that Frieza had a 100% up his sleeves which could match Ssj Goku to an extent. You're desperate at this point.

House of Balloons wrote:I guess since Cell was a threat to the Earth despite Gohan being there means Cell is stronger, even though it is confirmed Gohan>Cell?


Cell could Shitstomp Gohan By far until Ssj2 Gohan arrived which made cell look like a joke, until his trump card aka self-destruction took place. Kid Buu has nothing of that sort and we already know that Gohan are above Super Buu by far. If Gohan could stomp kid Buu as you're saying then he's no thread.

Chuck, stop giving me useless examples which go against your own claims.

House of Balloons wrote:Yet there is no timeframe given,


Concession accepted unless you decently come back otherwise. You're dismissing the statements at this point because you don't know when they appeared but they all appeared at various stages including the start of the battle, middle of it, and at the end of it.

House of Balloons wrote:and if the whole universe was at stake why would Goku say that after they defeat Kid Buu that they could restore everything with the dragon balls? If he was a danger to the universe, why was Supreme Kai only concerned with him destroying planets? Why is it that Vegeta stated it was to decide the fate of the galaxy?


What?? I can't even understand what the heck you're even saying. What does Kid Buu dying have to do with being a danger to the universe? That's the worst logic I've seen. When Frieza died, he was no longer a threat, same case. What's the logic behind this even? Also, Vegeta didn't say the fate of the galaxy, as that's a mistranslation from Viz as the real statement says that the Universe is at stake.

House of Balloons wrote:[spoiler]Image

Image[/spoiler]

I guess Frieza and Broly are universal for also being universal threats.


Chuck, don't try to switch the topic here. We're not arguing whether kid Buu is Universal or not, so stop right there. Because you're trying to shift the attention, This is irrelevant and is considered as a concession to the main issue we're arguing which you ignored

House of Balloons wrote:even though Goku was confident they could take on Kid Buu on their own, yet claimed they would need potara against Super Buu.


You're ignoring the debunks I showed you again. Goku was never confident. The burden of proof is on you to show me Goku is confident. Otherwise, you lose.

House of Balloons wrote:Because Goku has been consistently the one who has saved the Earth and protected it. Gohan is not and was never meant to replace Goku on that mantle.


This is more of an excuse rather than really trying to prove a point. Goku being usually the hero correlates to almost nothing to this topic.

House of Balloons wrote:Image
If Super Buu=Fat Buu, why would this state he got a super power up?


Because you're ignoring everything which I'm saying rather than properly debunking it and just going around in circles. Your argument fell apart Here, don't keep trying and rather move on.

House of Balloons wrote:Then why would SSJ Gotenks> SSJ3 Goku, yet Super Buu>=SSJ3 Gotenks?


Who said Ssj Gotenks > Ssj3 Goku? You? You still haven't provided any evidence at all so not really

House of Balloons wrote:Why would Goku admit him and Vegeta together can't defeat Super Buu yet having fought him at the SAME time?


Chuck if you keep circling around then you lost here. Stop ignoring things, because it makes you worse here

House of Balloons wrote:Image

Yet Goku admits that he could have defeated Fat Buu, he just wanted the next generation to do it themselves.


Thank you for supporting my point.

House of Balloons wrote:
>yet he shit his pants as Buutenks rushed towards him and DEMANDED Gohan should put the earring on, proving Buutenks> Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Goku


This only proves that Buutenks > Goku not Gohan > Goku. Failed attempt

House of Balloons wrote:Toriyama himself in the own interview you showed said "BLANK" COOL: Goku. Goku is the best fighter and was the protector of the Earth. Him being stronger is debunked by his own statements regarding Gotenks and the other Buus.


Stop lying about what the author is saying. The author said "THE STRONGEST. What You just did is a normie tier thinggy. Chuck, if you won't properly debate, then again, this is over

House of Balloons wrote:Also, your point regarding Super Buu and Fat Buu, in that El Manga scan, nowhere is it implied that he didn't get stronger. The anime itself, the manga, statements, and the chapter summary itself says Buu got a super power up.


You clearly don't read and clearly messed the point behind them. Since you haven't covered my point, your trial here is also invalid. Stop dismissing stuff and act as if you're an official source

House of Balloons wrote:Literally the rest of the bible is full of out of context and nitpicking of the statements.


You saying they're out of context is irrelevant. Show me how is it wrong. Show me how my bible is wrong, because it you can't do that, then you should already concede because you've lost here. Ignoring things is not proper

House of Balloons wrote:Just the MERE fact Buuhan> Base Vegito debunks the notion that Goku was the strongest and that he was facing the strongest Buu.


You seem to have the wrong idea. I'm not saying Goku is above Buuban, I'm only saying he's above Gohan, but weaker than Buutenks. Also, you didn't prove that Buuhan > Base Vegito. That's an Asspull you just got here

House of Balloons wrote:[spoiler]Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image[/spoiler]

Unless you think a 400x, well technically 4,000x multiplier for SSJ3 is higher than AxB or >4,000x Base Goku for Base Vegito alone and then stacking a 500x multiplier for MSSJ.
NOT even mentioning he also has a rival boost on top of that.


I couldn't understand a word you said.

House of Balloons wrote:I have more statements,


Quality > Quantity. This is the same fallacy you kept on thinking of. When you debated parrot, you thought that Quantity means I'm better. But I could post 1000 pictures of my family but they're irrelevant just like What you just did. You dismissed stuff and went around in circles. You even supported me at some points, so your argument is invalid.

House of Balloons wrote:more consistent showings,


You haven't provided any of that, so no

House of Balloons wrote:and concise scaling to prove that Super Buu> Kid Buu, and even then Buutenks himself states he is the strongest one, and Buuhan was stronger than Base Vegito.


And all of that was butchering everything and simply throwing irrelevant scans without evidence to back any of your claims while going in circles.

Look, Chuck the Cyber Cuck. If you can't debate properly and decently covering every single point, then you've lost here.

House of Balloons wrote:Therefore, Buuhan is the strongest Buu and not Kid Buu.


Therefore you failed to prove that, lmao
Last edited by DB▪Magnum-Expert on Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:22 pm

SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:To cut in, there is a confirmation fallacy i see a lot that I wish would get cleared up. That just because a character says a villain "will destroy the Universe", it does not instantly confirm them to be universal busting or that they can one-shot the universe. Its headcanon logic that peeves me a bit as its abused by powerscalers all the time. Its obvious when a character says another character "will" destroy the universe, they just mean they are a threat to everything known to exist. Its very obvious from the screencap with Piccolo & North Kai. I don't believe Broly & Freeza are universal. Nothing supports this. Not even kid Buu.
No one's saying that, lmao.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:24 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Not at all. Not getting into specifics on the inumerable statements that can easily be interpreted on many different ways, losing all his absorbtions should make Boo weaker, not stronger. If Boo's absorbtions make him weaker, then what's the point?

It would make sense from a narrative point of view for Boo to be the strongest villian as he's the final, endgame foe. Everything points towards Pure Boo being one of the weakest Boos though, and it's made even clear that Pure Boo is not the strongest Boo when most, if not all, of the Pure Boo > Super Boo supporters can be identified as trolls or fanboys and the most known ones (Not getting into names here, but some people should know) are banned on most forums.
By the way, about our debate, I'm sorry for not replying fast. I didn't even read your last reply, but I will reply to it as soon as possible after I'm done debating House of Balloons
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:37 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert, not only are your posts incomprehensibly long and tedious, but this whole rude "lmao you're so wrong" attitude you're embodying in them is not how we do things here. Discuss or "debate" things with your peers in a friendly, respectful, and preferably succinct manner, or don't do it at all. That goes for everyone, but you in particular are standing out in this thread.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:53 pm

Kaboom wrote:DB▪Magnum-Expert, not only are your posts incomprehensibly long and tedious, but this whole rude "lmao you're so wrong" attitude you're embodying in them is not how we do things here. Discuss or "debate" things with your peers in a friendly, respectful, and preferably succinct manner, or don't do it at all. That goes for everyone, but you in particular are standing out in this thread.
There isn't any rule for long posts though, Kaboom. Each post could hold up to 60,000 Characters. If I'm not supposed to write long posts, then what is the purpose for having a long comment limit? (I'm not saying that you said that. I'm only talking about your complains on the length of my posts). Also, the "lmao you're so wrong" is not that I'm insulting him to an extent that I'm being completely offensive at it. I believe House of Balloons himself is fine with this unless he says no, because if he does, then I'll stop. But it's just me being blunt, because if I'm blunt, I'd be far more capable in debating since I can be more expressive and on-point.

So, am I allowed to type long posts or not? (I'll reduce this type of attitude anyways)
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:59 pm

There's no actual literal rule against long posts, no. But it should just be common sense that chains of massive, essay-like posts are just going to hurt a thread's readability and hinder discussion with any actual meaning.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:59 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: By the way, about our debate, I'm sorry for not replying fast. I didn't even read your last reply, but I will reply to it as soon as possible after I'm done debating House of Balloons
It's fine. Though i think he should start a new one altogether. I might have changed my opinion on some stuff.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:05 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: By the way, about our debate, I'm sorry for not replying fast. I didn't even read your last reply, but I will reply to it as soon as possible after I'm done debating House of Balloons
It's fine. Though i think he should start a new one altogether. I might have changed my opinion on some stuff.
Well, I will reply to you as if we're continuing normally. If you notice that there's something you changed your mind On, notify me.

Also, who are you referring to by "he"? Or is this a typo?
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:16 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: By the way, about our debate, I'm sorry for not replying fast. I didn't even read your last reply, but I will reply to it as soon as possible after I'm done debating House of Balloons
It's fine. Though i think he should start a new one altogether. I might have changed my opinion on some stuff.
Well, I will reply to you as if we're continuing normally. If you notice that there's something you changed your mind On, notify me.

Also, who are you referring to by "he"? Or is this a typo?
Typo. I meant "we".
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:13 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:To cut in, there is a confirmation fallacy i see a lot that I wish would get cleared up. That just because a character says a villain "will destroy the Universe", it does not instantly confirm them to be universal busting or that they can one-shot the universe. Its headcanon logic that peeves me a bit as its abused by powerscalers all the time. Its obvious when a character says another character "will" destroy the universe, they just mean they are a threat to everything known to exist. Its very obvious from the screencap with Piccolo & North Kai. I don't believe Broly & Freeza are universal. Nothing supports this. Not even kid Buu.
No one's saying that, lmao.
I skimmed to the North Kai & Piccolo screencaps that use the "X will destroy the universe" quotes referring to that based on how people claim Buu's strength, I didn't say anyone particularly made the claim here.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:17 pm

Putting aside tons of assumptions based on half read stuff, I think Kid Boo being the strongest Majin Boo seems in line with how Toriyama likes to portray his strongest characters. Besides, going against the trend of getting stronger each time a strong fighter is absorbed kinda fits the unexpectability of Dragon Ball style. I believe Freeza and Cell underwent a similar process, specially Cell as he powered-up even more despite not absorbing No.18 after recovering from his life-risking attack.

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