Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby theherodjl » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:38 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:It's not really impossible Goku got stronger out of the blue for the Pure Boo fight. Pretty sure Toei did that on Super a few times, so nothing much wrong with this hapening on Z.


The truth isn't that "its not really impossible", it is impossible. There's no way that Goku received such a power up just because. This was the DB series before Toei just said "F*ck it, *character* here needs to be relevant for this episode so they get a massive boost" so the retrospective rules of DB aren't going to go out the window in this case. It wasn't quite yet GT(Goku's Time).
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:13 am

theherodjl wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:It's not really impossible Goku got stronger out of the blue for the Pure Boo fight. Pretty sure Toei did that on Super a few times, so nothing much wrong with this hapening on Z.


The truth isn't that "its not really impossible", it is impossible. There's no way that Goku received such a power up just because. This was the DB series before Toei just said "F*ck it, *character* here needs to be relevant for this episode so they get a massive boost" so the retrospective rules of DB aren't going to go out the window in this case. It wasn't quite yet GT(Goku's Time).

Wasn’t Akira Toriyama himself the one that said that anything could happen in Dragon Ball? I don’t understand how anyone can correlate the word “impossible” with this franchise.

Besides, it was said Goku was the only single person that could fight that last form of Boo. Even when Gohan was revived, there was all that drama about what would happen if Goku lost that battle. And after Boo’s defeat, Goku obtained the title of strongest or at least the strongest Saiyan, which is very weird if we consider Gohan is around and is stronger than him.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby ZeroNeonix » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:59 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Wasn’t Akira Toriyama himself the one that said that anything could happen in Dragon Ball? I don’t understand how anyone can correlate the word “impossible” with this franchise.

Besides, it was said Goku was the only single person that could fight that last form of Boo. Even when Gohan was revived, there was all that drama about what would happen if Goku lost that battle. And after Boo’s defeat, Goku obtained the title of strongest or at least the strongest Saiyan, which is very weird if we consider Gohan is around and is stronger than him.


When Goku was fighting Buu, Gohan was dead. Goku was the strongest warrior left. After Goku was unable to restore his energy to fight again, when Fat Buu showed up to fight, THAT was when Vegeta got the idea to revive earth. It was the combined power of Earth via the Spirit Bomb that killed Buu, not Goku.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:58 am

ZeroNeonix wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Wasn’t Akira Toriyama himself the one that said that anything could happen in Dragon Ball? I don’t understand how anyone can correlate the word “impossible” with this franchise.

Besides, it was said Goku was the only single person that could fight that last form of Boo. Even when Gohan was revived, there was all that drama about what would happen if Goku lost that battle. And after Boo’s defeat, Goku obtained the title of strongest or at least the strongest Saiyan, which is very weird if we consider Gohan is around and is stronger than him.


When Goku was fighting Buu, Gohan was dead. Goku was the strongest warrior left. After Goku was unable to restore his energy to fight again, when Fat Buu showed up to fight, THAT was when Vegeta got the idea to revive earth. It was the combined power of Earth via the Spirit Bomb that killed Buu, not Goku.

Of course, but Gohan was alive and well when they came up with super genkidama. Vegeta disregarded the idea of bringing Gohan to fight Boo and went as far as to put his pride aside to request the help of Earthlings. That attitude sounds strange if he had the easy option to say “fuck Earthlings” and wish Gohan to spawn there to do the work. Not to mention the scene is written in a way that, if Goku lost that struggle, there would be none left to stop Boo. And Vegeta was prepared to kill the good Boo, which is a drastic measure, to not risk that other Boo coming back.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Tectorman » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:40 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
ZeroNeonix wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Wasn’t Akira Toriyama himself the one that said that anything could happen in Dragon Ball? I don’t understand how anyone can correlate the word “impossible” with this franchise.

Besides, it was said Goku was the only single person that could fight that last form of Boo. Even when Gohan was revived, there was all that drama about what would happen if Goku lost that battle. And after Boo’s defeat, Goku obtained the title of strongest or at least the strongest Saiyan, which is very weird if we consider Gohan is around and is stronger than him.


When Goku was fighting Buu, Gohan was dead. Goku was the strongest warrior left. After Goku was unable to restore his energy to fight again, when Fat Buu showed up to fight, THAT was when Vegeta got the idea to revive earth. It was the combined power of Earth via the Spirit Bomb that killed Buu, not Goku.

Of course, but Gohan was alive and well when they came up with super genkidama. Vegeta disregarded the idea of bringing Gohan to fight Boo and went as far as to put his pride aside to request the help of Earthlings. That attitude sounds strange if he had the easy option to say “fuck Earthlings” and wish Gohan to spawn there to do the work. Not to mention the scene is written in a way that, if Goku lost that struggle, there would be none left to stop Boo. And Vegeta was prepared to kill the good Boo, which is a drastic measure, to not risk that other Boo coming back.


Actually, I'd say it's less that Vegeta disregarded the idea of getting Gohan and Gotenks's help, but rather that his plan from the getgo was "the Earth people need to do their share at least once", via the Spirit Bomb. That, contrived on Toriyama's part or not, was Vegeta's stated reason both before the Earth was restored and its people (including Gohan) revived and after.

Second of all, don't characters get revived in the same state they were in while dead? That is, Vegeta got beaten while he was dead fighting Kid Buu, and after Porunga revived him, he was still injured and exhausted. Wouldn't revived-Gohan also be starting tapped out?

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:58 am

Tectorman wrote:Actually, I'd say it's less that Vegeta disregarded the idea of getting Gohan and Gotenks's help, but rather that his plan from the getgo was "the Earth people need to do their share at least once", via the Spirit Bomb. That, contrived on Toriyama's part or not, was Vegeta's stated reason both before the Earth was restored and its people (including Gohan) revived and after.

Second of all, don't characters get revived in the same state they were in while dead? That is, Vegeta got beaten while he was dead fighting Kid Buu, and after Porunga revived him, he was still injured and exhausted. Wouldn't revived-Gohan also be starting tapped out?

Good points. I could accept those as reasons, but they would include only that moment right? I don’t know if another Boo being born would be expected to happen in the same day. That would possibly give Gohan plenty of time to prepare himself if he is capable of beating that Boo.

In another hand, Goku’s response was basically “we will get stronger so we will beat Boo one-on-one”. In Dragon Ball Super’s first episodes, it could be said Goku was using Boo as motivation to train and Vegeta was using Goku’s unstoppable desire to get stronger as a motivation to not be the second best in the universe. They pretty much didn’t care about Gohan, which was different from the aftermath of Cell’s fight, when surpassing Gohan was a goal for Goku and Vegeta in those 7 years.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Tectorman » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:01 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Actually, I'd say it's less that Vegeta disregarded the idea of getting Gohan and Gotenks's help, but rather that his plan from the getgo was "the Earth people need to do their share at least once", via the Spirit Bomb. That, contrived on Toriyama's part or not, was Vegeta's stated reason both before the Earth was restored and its people (including Gohan) revived and after.

Second of all, don't characters get revived in the same state they were in while dead? That is, Vegeta got beaten while he was dead fighting Kid Buu, and after Porunga revived him, he was still injured and exhausted. Wouldn't revived-Gohan also be starting tapped out?

Good points. I could accept those as reasons, but they would include only that moment right? I don’t know if another Boo being born would be expected to happen in the same day. That would possibly give Gohan plenty of time to prepare himself if he is capable of beating that Boo.

In another hand, Goku’s response was basically “we will get stronger so we will beat Boo one-on-one”. In Dragon Ball Super’s first episodes, it could be said Goku was using Boo as motivation to train and Vegeta was using Goku’s unstoppable desire to get stronger as a motivation to not be the second best in the universe. They pretty much didn’t care about Gohan, which was different from the aftermath of Cell’s fight, when surpassing Gohan was a goal for Goku and Vegeta in those 7 years.


Did they care about surpassing Gohan after the Cell fight? I always took it as generally being Goku's nature to push himself further. I mean, he hypothetically had his "one day in the world of the living", but practically, he was never expecting to go back to Earth or encounter his son again, at least not while he was alive. Goku would meet up with Gohan again after Gohan had died (presumably of old age), but one of the last things Goku ever said to Gohan was to grow up and be a scholar. I don't think he was ever working to surpass Gohan; it was just a natural consequence of his nature.

Same thing with Vegeta. After he dropped that whole "I will never fight again" thing, I thought he was training on sheer principle. He expressed disappointment in Gohan for letting his fighting skills get rusty, but if his goal was specifically beating Gohan, one would think he'd be more ticked off at being cheated of his next rival.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:35 pm

Tectorman wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Actually, I'd say it's less that Vegeta disregarded the idea of getting Gohan and Gotenks's help, but rather that his plan from the getgo was "the Earth people need to do their share at least once", via the Spirit Bomb. That, contrived on Toriyama's part or not, was Vegeta's stated reason both before the Earth was restored and its people (including Gohan) revived and after.

Second of all, don't characters get revived in the same state they were in while dead? That is, Vegeta got beaten while he was dead fighting Kid Buu, and after Porunga revived him, he was still injured and exhausted. Wouldn't revived-Gohan also be starting tapped out?

Good points. I could accept those as reasons, but they would include only that moment right? I don’t know if another Boo being born would be expected to happen in the same day. That would possibly give Gohan plenty of time to prepare himself if he is capable of beating that Boo.

In another hand, Goku’s response was basically “we will get stronger so we will beat Boo one-on-one”. In Dragon Ball Super’s first episodes, it could be said Goku was using Boo as motivation to train and Vegeta was using Goku’s unstoppable desire to get stronger as a motivation to not be the second best in the universe. They pretty much didn’t care about Gohan, which was different from the aftermath of Cell’s fight, when surpassing Gohan was a goal for Goku and Vegeta in those 7 years.


Did they care about surpassing Gohan after the Cell fight? I always took it as generally being Goku's nature to push himself further. I mean, he hypothetically had his "one day in the world of the living", but practically, he was never expecting to go back to Earth or encounter his son again, at least not while he was alive. Goku would meet up with Gohan again after Gohan had died (presumably of old age), but one of the last things Goku ever said to Gohan was to grow up and be a scholar. I don't think he was ever working to surpass Gohan; it was just a natural consequence of his nature.

Same thing with Vegeta. After he dropped that whole "I will never fight again" thing, I thought he was training on sheer principle. He expressed disappointment in Gohan for letting his fighting skills get rusty, but if his goal was specifically beating Gohan, one would think he'd be more ticked off at being cheated of his next rival.

Considering that more than once Vegeta acknowledged the large gap that existed between his power and Gohan’s when he fought Cell, even comparing it with Goku’s power after he showed the form, I think they subconsciously had Gohan on their mind while thinking about a wall to surpass in their routine. In Vegeta’s case, I can imagine he would think Goku would surpass Gohan sooner or later, so he wanted to not get behind. If we go as far as the beginning of Dragon Ball Super, namely episode 2, we don’t see such acknowledgement directed at Gohan, but rather at Goku.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby SuperSaiyanMastaDon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:42 am

I don't see how it would at all.

Super Saiyan Gotenks is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. He goes into the RoSaT and powers up hugely. Then he adds Super Saiyan 2 and 3 on top of that. If we are going off of basic numbers using official multipliers, at minimum, Gotenks should be around 10x stronger than Goku...


Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks 800
Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks 200
Super Saiyan Gotenks Post 100
Super Saiyan Gotenks Pre 75
Super Saiyan 3 Goku 70

But the community goes mad at the thought of Goku being so weak. So much so, the writers are forced to do whatever they can to make Goku top dog again as seen in both continuations. But in original work, Goku is simply irrelevant to the powers of fusion and Ultimate Gohan. Nowhere close.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Desassina » Sun May 06, 2018 7:32 pm

On a pure naming convention:
1. Pure Evil Boo - evil as enhanced by purity as a word.
2. Evil Boo - evil empowering when different than pure.
3. Pure Boo - purity is untainted without enhancements.
4. Majin Boo - tameable and empowered by his own evil.
5. Innocent Boo - tame and neither pure nor evil or both.

There's more to Majin Boo than just the names though.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Locutus » Mon May 07, 2018 1:00 am

I just go by the anime which says Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. Kai kept Kiddo as the strongest as well which is "Toriyamas cut" I know people can be picky with canon, but the way I see it is this. Thr anime writers still read the manga so their scripts line up with whatever is going on in the "main canon." If they read Elder Kais little description of calling Kiddo "the most troublesome Buu" and came to the conclusion that means strongest, we the audience should as well.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby Sonofman » Fri May 11, 2018 12:35 pm

Kid Buu is the original Majin Buu, the literal 1st form. He is pure and completely evil. His very nature is to destroy and continue to destroy life. The reason why people keep thinking he's the strongest Majin Buu is because he destroyed Earth, and planet after planet like it was nothing to him. Kid Buu doesn't care about anything but destruction.

If he was the "strongest" Majin Buu, then why did he absorb the previous Kai's to become Super Buu? He realized that if he absorbed a strong foe, then he would continue to get stronger. However, that became Buu's downfall when he absorbed a weaker foe and thus we got the original "fat" Majin Buu (being child-like in nature).

Is Kid Buu stronger than "fat" Buu? Yes, he is. Just rewatch the episode where fat Buu vs Kid Buu and you can clearly see how outmatched fat Buu is.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby supersaiyangodgogeta » Sat May 12, 2018 9:33 pm

Super Saiyan Gotenks isn't even close to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He's stated to be weaker than Pure Evil Boo whom is stated to be weaker than Fat Boo.


That is what Piccolo said in response to the Grey Boo that Fat Boo ejected.

And he's weaker than Vegeta prior to going into the Rosat as stated by the daizenshuu.


The most one can assert is that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks>Super Saiyan 3 Goku since Goku didn't think that he could beat Super Boo. Anything else is baseless. Pure Boo was on a whole other level to Super Boo according to Goku.

Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku>Fat Boo>Pure Evil Boo>SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ Gotenks.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby theherodjl » Sat May 12, 2018 11:50 pm

So I take it that Pure Boo was only using like 1/10th of his power against Goku and that he felt no need to use any more strength just because he could? Then Boo decided to hold back even more so as to not kill Vegeta, who was a mere 1/40th of his Boo's power, just because...again? Then Boo decided to suddenly stop caring about holding back and stick it to his weaker counterpart without any mercy? Pure Boo is either completely illogical in his thought process or he recognizes the stability of his opponents and uses however much strength he needs in the moment.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby ToshioWrites » Sun May 13, 2018 11:57 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:All the controversy going on about this topic, it's almost confirmed Kid Buu is one of the weakest Buu(s). But what if Kid Buu is the strongest Buu? Like would it make things more consistent or better for the plot?


In this scenario, kid buu would be stronger than buuhan so basically goku alone would be able to fight a guy that is stronger than previous version that he was forced to potara fuse with vegeta for and go super saiyan. Yeah no, Kid buu is fine as he is, no need to jerk goku off that much atleast in canon since the anime certainly went all out in that area

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon May 14, 2018 3:26 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Super Saiyan Gotenks isn't even close to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

He's stated to be weaker than Pure Evil Boo whom is stated to be weaker than Fat Boo.


That is what Piccolo said in response to the Grey Boo that Fat Boo ejected.

And he's weaker than Vegeta prior to going into the Rosat as stated by the daizenshuu.


The most one can assert is that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks>Super Saiyan 3 Goku since Goku didn't think that he could beat Super Boo. Anything else is baseless. Pure Boo was on a whole other level to Super Boo according to Goku.

Pure Boo>Super Boo=SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku>Fat Boo>Pure Evil Boo>SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ Gotenks.


That literally flies on the face of everything established on the manga, so everything you've just said is very likely to be wrong.
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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby dbgtFO » Thu May 17, 2018 12:20 pm

theherodjl wrote:So I take it that Pure Boo was only using like 1/10th of his power against Goku and that he felt no need to use any more strength just because he could? Then Boo decided to hold back even more so as to not kill Vegeta, who was a mere 1/40th of his Boo's power, just because...again? Then Boo decided to suddenly stop caring about holding back and stick it to his weaker counterpart without any mercy?

To be fair he seemed particularly angry against Fat Buu, so giving it his all there certainly makes sense. And I always saw it as him innately opposing another version of himself, because of wanting to prove who was the best Buu.
But I digress. I agree that it doesn't make much sense that he was holding back against Goku, but then didn't extend the same courtesy to Vegeta, who got smashed within a few seconds.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby MisterGuyMan » Tue May 22, 2018 8:12 pm

Just wanted to add that the manga actually makes a clear comparison between Gohan and Goku here. Goku first says he can charge up his Ki for an entire minute and kill Kid Buu. A little over a minute later, he says Gohan's Ki, drawn to his limit, probably isn't enough:

This same narrative is repeated in both versions of DBS and Daizenshu's manga guide that basically if the Genki Dama fails, no one is stopping Kid Buu, which would include Gohan. This puts Kid Buu above Super Buu at least.

Some one also speculated that Gohan would be tapped out. Dende heals him and he doesn't take any significant damage after being healed. Super Buu says he has access to his power with no limit as well so he's not using any of it up with his magic absorption. Gohan would be revived at his full power.

Kid Buu is strange because the longer DBS continues, the stronger Uub gets. It also doesn't even make a lot of sense because Goku outright says he wants his full power to fight the reincarnated Kid Buu. I don't want to put him into God tier or anything but the more info releases, the stronger Kid Buu is becoming by association.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby ZeroNeonix » Tue May 22, 2018 10:22 pm

MisterGuyMan wrote:Just wanted to add that the manga actually makes a clear comparison between Gohan and Goku here. Goku first says he can charge up his Ki for an entire minute and kill Kid Buu. A little over a minute later, he says Gohan's Ki, drawn to his limit, probably isn't enough:

This same narrative is repeated in both versions of DBS and Daizenshu's manga guide that basically if the Genki Dama fails, no one is stopping Kid Buu, which would include Gohan. This puts Kid Buu above Super Buu at least.

Some one also speculated that Gohan would be tapped out. Dende heals him and he doesn't take any significant damage after being healed. Super Buu says he has access to his power with no limit as well so he's not using any of it up with his magic absorption. Gohan would be revived at his full power.

Kid Buu is strange because the longer DBS continues, the stronger Uub gets. It also doesn't even make a lot of sense because Goku outright says he wants his full power to fight the reincarnated Kid Buu. I don't want to put him into God tier or anything but the more info releases, the stronger Kid Buu is becoming by association.


The Spirit Bomb ≠ Gohan. Just because he took some of Gohan's energy doesn't make the Spirit Bomb equal in power to the whole of Gohan. After Vegeta had wished all of the earthlings back to life, Goku even thought that he was going to have Gohan fight Buu and seemed pretty optimistic about that idea. What Vegeta had in mind was more symbolic, however. He could have wished Gohan to the planet of the kais to finish Buu off, but he thought it was more appropriate that the earthlings they continually protected would be the ones to save themselves for once.

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Re: Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

Postby PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 12:14 am

ZeroNeonix wrote:
MisterGuyMan wrote:Just wanted to add that the manga actually makes a clear comparison between Gohan and Goku here. Goku first says he can charge up his Ki for an entire minute and kill Kid Buu. A little over a minute later, he says Gohan's Ki, drawn to his limit, probably isn't enough:

This same narrative is repeated in both versions of DBS and Daizenshu's manga guide that basically if the Genki Dama fails, no one is stopping Kid Buu, which would include Gohan. This puts Kid Buu above Super Buu at least.

Some one also speculated that Gohan would be tapped out. Dende heals him and he doesn't take any significant damage after being healed. Super Buu says he has access to his power with no limit as well so he's not using any of it up with his magic absorption. Gohan would be revived at his full power.

Kid Buu is strange because the longer DBS continues, the stronger Uub gets. It also doesn't even make a lot of sense because Goku outright says he wants his full power to fight the reincarnated Kid Buu. I don't want to put him into God tier or anything but the more info releases, the stronger Kid Buu is becoming by association.


The Spirit Bomb ≠ Gohan. Just because he took some of Gohan's energy doesn't make the Spirit Bomb equal in power to the whole of Gohan. After Vegeta had wished all of the earthlings back to life, Goku even thought that he was going to have Gohan fight Buu and seemed pretty optimistic about that idea. What Vegeta had in mind was more symbolic, however. He could have wished Gohan to the planet of the kais to finish Buu off, but he thought it was more appropriate that the earthlings they continually protected would be the ones to save themselves for once.


Well said. If the Spirit Bomb included the entirety of Gohan's power along with everyone else's it would be an outrageously overpowered technique that would pretty much invalidate trying to do anything else.

PS how did you put the not equal sign?


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