Would it make more sense if Kid Buu was the strongest Buu?

[TobyS]

Goku could have taken him out if he went all out from the beginning.

Goku knows this but sees Gohan and Gotenks as an even easier win.

Vegeta implicitly says no to both ideas, never because they wouldn't work but because he wants earth to save itself for once.

There would still be tension of he lost, he could wipe out the afterlife, the kaios any maybe the genki depleted fighters on earth, or at least everyone except them. Plenty if tension. Regardless the story being less good if x happened doesn't mean x didn't happen that's silly logic.

[MisterGuyMan]

As I've said before, that is not evidence. You need to show something indicating that the use of ki there is meaning actual ki, and not just genki. You are the one that is creating the redundancy in your version of the Super Genki Dama entry, but even then it doesn't affect the way it'd be read if ki and genki are interchangeable there. The Super Genki Dama is a Genki Dama made by asking everyone on Earth to donate. Something needs to be added to that to specify what is being donated, otherwise it could be absolutely anything. Dirty laundry, zeni, canned foods, etc. It being slightly redundant and having it be "their energy" doesn't immediately invalidate it making sense in that context. It's just saying what was donated.

You're ignoring all the other pieces of evidence though. First we have them specifically say they're gathering Ki on top of Genki. Then we have the Daizenshuu quote which makes inserting Genki for Ki in the SGD description read awkwardly. We also have the repeated times where gathering Ki is equated the same as gathering power. Finally we have confirmation that "giving your ki up to your limit" is tied to power level with how a few really strong people can already create a huge Genki Dama. All those pieces of evidence more than simply suggest that they used the right term. The Super Genki Dama is gathering Ki. Your only argument is an insistence, with no actual evidence, that Vegeta used the wrong term just because other people earlier used the terms interchangeably. Use the same standard for youself that you asked from me. Do you have any evidence that Vegeta used the terms interchangeably?

Finally this is all moot anyway since we have direct proof from the ToP that regardles of what Gohan donated to the Genki Dama, the Genki Dama would have still been stronger than Gohan's full power. This puts Kid Buu well above Gohan any way you look at it.

As mentioned before, power has also been used specifically for the regular Genki Dama as well, making that a moot point.

I'm citing the same person though, Vegeta. Vegeta only uses the term Ki not Genki and he uses Ki and power interchangeably.

Then again, why use a scene depicting the one time Buu didn't get weaker from losing an absorption (by your version of events) to illustrate the fact that Buu got weaker?

Why not? There's no reason not to. It was the last lost absorption in the process of losing multiple absorptions. Any single one would have fit the criteria.

You can only make the argument toward Vegeta basing his opinion of Buu on physical size. Goku has repeatedly shown that he doesn't base his opinion of a fighter's strength and capabilities on their physical appearance if he can sense their ki, thus there's no reason to assume, for a moment, that he is judging his opinion of Buu on Buu's physical appearance.

Likewise, Vegeta's later admission of Buu being stronger than he thought only factors into his initial opinions, not Goku's. Goku makes no indication that Buu is more powerful than he previously thought. More resilient and harder to take out due to his regeneration, yes, but at no point does he indicate that Buu is more powerful than he previously believed (the "might be able to manage something")

We know Goku readily established he and Vegeta stood no chance against Evil Buu. We know Goku felt he'd be capable of fighting against Pure Buu, and maintains this until he physically couldn't maintain Super Saiyan 3 anymore.

Goku earlier said that Buu's power was like a lie and Goku never even states anything about Kid Buu's power going lower. Moreover after the fight, Goku acknowledges that he needs to train so he won't lose again and then 10 years later, tells Good Buu to fix the seedings so he has all his power for his fight against Uub. There's no validity to the claim that Goku dismissed Kid Buu's power after Kid Buu's scream and there's nothing but respect from that point forward. If Goku thought he might be able to do something, he then obviously realizes he was wrong because even months later in DBS, he's still training because he knows he couldn't.

Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu gave them the opportunity to resurrect the Earth in the first place. If Mr. Satan hadn't stepped in briefly to distract Buu from killing Vegeta, Mr. Buu wouldn't have been spit out, and if he hadn't have appeared, then Buu would have finished off Vegeta, ending his existence completely, and then he'd have finished off Goku, who couldn't maintain the drain of Super Saiyan 3. Thus, with those two gone and Gohan and the others still dead, Buu would have went on unopposed. Nothing about Goku's line says that the Genki Dama was their only means of defeating Buu.

That's your reading of the statement. It has several flaws. First of all, Gohan being dead isn't going to bar him from fighting. Vegeta's entire presence there is proof that Yemma is fine bending the rules to save the universe.

Secondly we also have multiple excerpts outlining that it really was Genki Dama or bust:
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
So those scans all tell us that if the Genki Dama failed, the universe was done for. One scan says Fat Buu, Vegeta and Goku are fighting and if they lose the universe's future will be no more. The presence of Fat Buu in that statement tells us this is already after Satan forced Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu. The only thing Satan does of value from this point on is to help the Genki Dama get to completion. The latter scan tells us that Kid Buu was defeated by the maximum level of power of the Genki Dama. This tells us that Gohan wouldn't be able to match this level of power and if he tried to match it, Kid Buu would just deflect it. This puts Kid Buu above Gohan.

That version of him ceased to exist. That mind, that personality, that version of Buu ceased to exist. The only way for it to not be the same Buu still is if the Evil Buu literally disappeared completely and a new one popped up out of nothingness, but that's not what happened. We physically saw his transformation from Evil Buu back down to the Pure Buu, meaning it's still the same Buu. Let's say you're in an accident. You lose all memory of who you are and your personality changes as a result of the injury. Are you literally a different person now or are you the same person, just changed?

If I get into an accident and lose my memory, no one ever will say I ceased to exist. That's simply not something that is applicable here. Super Buu ceased to exist. That's what the manga said happened to Super Buu. He ceased to exist. Physically seeing Evil Buu transform to Kid Buu is not proof that he's the same Buu. It's just visual confirmation of what was stated earlier. Super Buu ceased to exist so Kid Buu appeared. That's it. Super Buu was not reincarnated. That's Kid Buu.

[theherodjl]

Why has this gone on for this many pages? Pure Boo cannot possibly be the strongest Boo. It doesn't matter if the Genki Dama only used Genki or full Ki: the Z Senshi alone couldn't have donated that much power to the Genki Dama to make it powerful enough to beat even a weak Boo. The purpose was to draw power from the entirety of the Earth's population so that the Genki Dama(which has a horrible track record of success in the main story) could be strong enough to eraticated Boo. Why they didn't bring Gohan & Gotenks along to finish off Pure Boo is purely for the Goku hype-train which even Vegeta had very recently jumped onto. There's no real 'debate' here that isn't just reaching for answers that aren't actually there.

[MisterGuyMan]

Why has this gone on for this many pages? Pure Boo cannot possibly be the strongest Boo. It doesn't matter if the Genki Dama only used Genki or full Ki: the Z Senshi alone couldn't have donated that much power to the Genki Dama to make it powerful enough to beat even a weak Boo. The purpose was to draw power from the entirety of the Earth's population so that the Genki Dama(which has a horrible track record of success in the main story) could be strong enough to eraticated Boo. Why they didn't bring Gohan & Gotenks along to finish off Pure Boo is purely for the Goku hype-train which even Vegeta had very recently jumped onto. There's no real 'debate' here that isn't just reaching for answers that aren't actually there.

I don't think we can conclude he's stronger than Buuhan or Buutenks but it's definitely possible that it might be retconned that way especially with God Ki. He's definitely now supposed to be stronger than Super Buu though. The Genki Dama in ToP proves that whatever power was in the Buu Saga Genki Dama must have been greater than the combined power of those that donated. The incomplete Genki Dama that Gohan donated too must have been stronger than Gohan himself and this incomplete Genki Dama wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu.

[theherodjl]

I don't think we can conclude he's stronger than Buuhan or Buutenks but it's definitely possible that it might be retconned that way especially with God Ki. He's definitely now supposed to be stronger than Super Buu though. The Genki Dama in ToP proves that whatever power was in the Buu Saga Genki Dama must have been greater than the combined power of those that donated. The incomplete Genki Dama that Gohan donated too must have been stronger than Gohan himself and this incomplete Genki Dama wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu.

Isn't it possible that the "retcon" in this case is actually the ToP Genki Dama's ability to intake power? Its not like Gohan gave a substantial amount of power to the Genki Dama against Boo as he wasn't breathing hard or sweating like everyone else who gave power to it. He had plenty of power left to fly around the Earth, and attempt to convince various people to donate Ki. The same goes for Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks as well. I'm sure that if it were the plan, Vegeta wouldn't fail to mention "oh yeah, we should probably take as much from our family & friends as well" or some such statement.
Pure Boo, in no way, has to be stronger than Super Boo just because Goku made a planet-wide Genki Damage with all the Ki that ordinary Earthlings could donate. I doubt that Goku would have even gone along with the plan if it were to just take in anything less than the full amount that the Earthlings could give. He initially had more confidence in Gotenks & Gohan appearing to fight Pure Boo. It was a gamble even by Vegeta's admission: Goku & Vegeta are known to overestimate their chances sometimes.

[shadowfox87]

I also don't know why this thread has gone for so long. Even the Kanzenshuu mods closed the chapter on this question long ago. Just because the Genki Dama is greater in strength does not justify that the person it destroys is immensely powerful. Goku used the Genki Dama to eradicate all traces of Buu and it worked. Could Gohan or Gotenks have killed him without the Genki Dama? Probably but they've spent too much time fighting him and he just absorbs the person if starts to lose. The Genki Dama was a good strategy. There's too much evidence already pointed out in this thread from the DBZ manga, feats, etc. (I'm not going to re post them) to say that Super Buu > Kid Buu. Kid Buu was the most "dangerous" of all Buus because he had no restrictions. Absorptions made him stronger except for the Dai Kaioshin who made him weaker only due to the Dai Kaioshin's good personality. The good influence only restricts his full power until he gets truly angry. The fact of the matter is that SSJ3 Goku could fight with Kid Buu while with Super Buu, only Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks could. This has not been retonned later.

SSJ Vegito > Buuhan > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku ~ Kid Buu > Evil Buu > Fat Buu

[Darkprince410]

You're ignoring all the other pieces of evidence though. First we have them specifically say they're gathering Ki on top of Genki. Then we have the Daizenshuu quote which makes inserting Genki for Ki in the SGD description read awkwardly. We also have the repeated times where gathering Ki is equated the same as gathering power. Finally we have confirmation that "giving your ki up to your limit" is tied to power level with how a few really strong people can already create a huge Genki Dama. All those pieces of evidence more than simply suggest that they used the right term. The Super Genki Dama is gathering Ki. Your only argument is an insistence, with no actual evidence, that Vegeta used the wrong term just because other people earlier used the terms interchangeably. Use the same standard for youself that you asked from me. Do you have any evidence that Vegeta used the terms interchangeably?

I'm not ignoring any piece of evidence you're showing, because none of that evidence says with any degree of certainty that they're referring to ki in its entirety. When we have direct statements from characters using the term ki in reference to genki, when it comes to the regular Genki Dama, and absolutely nothing saying that anything different is in play when it comes to the Super Genki Dama (none of the lines in the manga do, nor does the Daizenshuu), then you cannot say with any certainty that they're meaning the entirety of ki. The burden of proof is not on me in this case, but on you, as you're the one that is making the proposition that it is using all of an individual's ki being donated.

I'm citing the same person though, Vegeta. Vegeta only uses the term Ki not Genki and he uses Ki and power interchangeably.

And power has been used for genki as well, as I've cited before. It's not a unique case in this instance at all.

Why not? There's no reason not to. It was the last lost absorption in the process of losing multiple absorptions. Any single one would have fit the criteria.

If you were going to use a picture specifically to illustrate a fact you were trying to convey, would you choose a picture displaying something that contradicted that fact? That's illogical. You'd want something that completely supported your point.

Goku earlier said that Buu's power was like a lie and Goku never even states anything about Kid Buu's power going lower. Moreover after the fight, Goku acknowledges that he needs to train so he won't lose again and then 10 years later, tells Good Buu to fix the seedings so he has all his power for his fight against Uub. There's no validity to the claim that Goku dismissed Kid Buu's power after Kid Buu's scream and there's nothing but respect from that point forward. If Goku thought he might be able to do something, he then obviously realizes he was wrong because even months later in DBS, he's still training because he knows he couldn't.

Goku's line about Buu's power being a lie is questionable at best, since we know he was lying to Piccolo at that time, and later admitted full on that he could have defeated Fat Buu (which the "like a lie" was about). As for Goku believing he could do something, he maintained that fact up until the moment he couldn't hold Super Saiyan 3 anymore, telling Vegeta he'd be able to do it if he had a minute to gather his ki. At no point does he indicate that he doesn't think he could possibly do it on his own. Using Potaras would have made it a snap, but at no point does he say or indicate, while he can use Super Saiyan 3, that Pure Buu is just too strong.

[spoiler]

Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-shit…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”

Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”

[/spoiler]

All this compared to him being too scared to even consider leaving Evil Buu's body unless they 1) made him even weaker, or 2) fuse.

As for wanting to train and him continuing to train into Super, that doesn't mean he wasn't strong enough at that time to have been able to do something. All that means is that he recognized Super Saiyan 3 was a bit too gimmicky to rely on by itself (given the intense drain of the form) and that if he wanted to make himself ready for if Buu appeared again, he should either get to a level where he could quickly and easily do it without the drain of the form being an issue, or to a level where he wouldn't even need Ssj3. Things were cut too close with Super Saiyan 3 there, so getting stronger to where that'd be a non-issue isn't unreasonable.

That's your reading of the statement. It has several flaws. First of all, Gohan being dead isn't going to bar him from fighting. Vegeta's entire presence there is proof that Yemma is fine bending the rules to save the universe.

Who knows when he'd eventually come before Enma to be judged though. When Goku arrived at Enma's after returning to the afterlife, we saw it was swamped with souls, and that was just from the few cities Buu had destroyed at the time. Factor in Buu's annihilation of the entire population (billions of people vs. the thousands beforehand) and he'd be that much more swamped before finally getting to Gohan and the boys. Couple that with Buu having access to Kai Kai, and by the time that Enma may have reached Gohan for judging, who knows how many countless worlds Buu would have destroyed.

So those scans all tell us that if the Genki Dama failed, the universe was done for. One scan says Fat Buu, Vegeta and Goku are fighting and if they lose the universe's future will be no more. The presence of Fat Buu in that statement tells us this is already after Satan forced Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu. The only thing Satan does of value from this point on is to help the Genki Dama get to completion. The latter scan tells us that Kid Buu was defeated by the maximum level of power of the Genki Dama. This tells us that Gohan wouldn't be able to match this level of power and if he tried to match it, Kid Buu would just deflect it. This puts Kid Buu above Gohan.

That first entry is exactly what I was saying though. Gohan's a non-factor at this point because he's dead. That entire "act" is talking about what was transpiring before the Earth was even restored, much less the Genki Dama being proposed.

The Super manga, again, shows no indication that it's specifically about the events of Pure Buu, and instead could very well be a synopsis of the entire Buu arc, especially given that the whole thing is framed to be a recap of what happened since we last "saw" Goku and the others.

That third entry...where does it say Gohan wouldn't have been able to match it or that Buu would have deflected it if he tried? There is no way that can be drawn from what is mentioned there at all. Considering that Gohan only donated a portion of his total power to the Genki Dama (given that he and everyone else in the world only donated genki), he easily could have had the ability to produce a blast more powerful than anything Buu could have defended against. If you're going solely by it being the "maximum level of power", then you're arguing that the Genki Dama was above Vegetto, and that's nonsensical. If you're going by the fact that Gohan's contribution wasn't enough, again, that was only his genki and not his whole ki.

If I get into an accident and lose my memory, no one ever will say I ceased to exist. That's simply not something that is applicable here. Super Buu ceased to exist. That's what the manga said happened to Super Buu. He ceased to exist. Physically seeing Evil Buu transform to Kid Buu is not proof that he's the same Buu. It's just visual confirmation of what was stated earlier. Super Buu ceased to exist so Kid Buu appeared. That's it. Super Buu was not reincarnated. That's Kid Buu.

I've seen and heard countless times (In news or other RL-related stories, so not dramatizations or fiction) of people losing their memories and others saying that that person "died" or something similar to that effect. The person that Evil Buu was at that point, his mind, his memories, etc, died when Mr. Buu was removed. He physically was still the same Buu that he was before, just what made him unique is gone forever.

Buu was reincarnated. The same Buu that was the Pure Evil Buu, all the forms of Evil Buu, and then what eventually was Pure Buu was reincarnated.

[MisterGuyMan]

I also don't know why this thread has gone for so long. Even the Kanzenshuu mods closed the chapter on this question long ago. Just because the Genki Dama is greater in strength does not justify that the person it destroys is immensely powerful. Goku used the Genki Dama to eradicate all traces of Buu and it worked. Could Gohan or Gotenks have killed him without the Genki Dama?

Neither Gohan nor Gotenks can match the Genki Dama's raw power. So if Kid Buu can deflect it, how are either of the Half-Saiyans going to beat Kid Buu with any of their blasts? They could put in all their power into it and it would still be weak enough for Kid Buu to deflect. I'm going to point out again how the ToP Genki Dama proves that the Genki Dama that incomplete Genki Dama that Gohan donated Ki to was stronger than Gohan himself and Kid Buu was able to deflect it. So Goku's full power is stronger than Kid Buu is stronger than the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan.

I'm not ignoring any piece of evidence you're showing, because none of that evidence says with any degree of certainty that they're referring to ki in its entirety. When we have direct statements from characters using the term ki in reference to genki, when it comes to the regular Genki Dama, and absolutely nothing saying that anything different is in play when it comes to the Super Genki Dama (none of the lines in the manga do, nor does the Daizenshuu), then you cannot say with any certainty that they're meaning the entirety of ki. The burden of proof is not on me in this case, but on you, as you're the one that is making the proposition that it is using all of an individual's ki being donated.

It's preponderance of evidence. There is so much evidence leaning towards everyone talking about Ki that you actually need to go out of your way to assume everyone is just using the wrong term. If you really want to get technical, there's no reason not to just treat Genki and Ki as synonyms with regards to the Genki Dama anyway. No one can gather courage or rightmindedness as raw power. No one ever says there's a real difference and they use the terms interchangeably.

And power has been used for genki as well, as I've cited before. It's not a unique case in this instance at all.

Has *Vegeta* used it this way?

If you were going to use a picture specifically to illustrate a fact you were trying to convey, would you choose a picture displaying something that contradicted that fact? That's illogical. You'd want something that completely supported your point.

Nothing in the picture shows us that the multiple absorptions didn't weaken Buu. It's an interesting picture with Super Buu, Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu. Why not use it?

Goku's line about Buu's power being a lie is questionable at best, since we know he was lying to Piccolo at that time, and later admitted full on that he could have defeated Fat Buu (which the "like a lie" was about). As for Goku believing he could do something, he maintained that fact up until the moment he couldn't hold Super Saiyan 3 anymore, telling Vegeta he'd be able to do it if he had a minute to gather his ki. At no point does he indicate that he doesn't think he could possibly do it on his own. Using Potaras would have made it a snap, but at no point does he say or indicate, while he can use Super Saiyan 3, that Pure Buu is just too strong.

None of your replies are relevant to what we were discussing. You wanted to argue that Goku sensed Kid Buu got weaker when he appeared. There's no evidence of that in the first place and after Kid Buu screams, Goku never once even implies anything resembling weakness for Kid Buu. Kid Buu screaming and Goku freaking out tells us Goku didn't anticipate he had that power.

All this compared to him being too scared to even consider leaving Evil Buu's body unless they 1) made him even weaker, or 2) fuse.

As for wanting to train and him continuing to train into Super, that doesn't mean he wasn't strong enough at that time to have been able to do something. All that means is that he recognized Super Saiyan 3 was a bit too gimmicky to rely on by itself (given the intense drain of the form) and that if he wanted to make himself ready for if Buu appeared again, he should either get to a level where he could quickly and easily do it without the drain of the form being an issue, or to a level where he wouldn't even need Ssj3. Things were cut too close with Super Saiyan 3 there, so getting stronger to where that'd be a non-issue isn't unreasonable.

We know that Goku wasn't at full power when he was inside Super Buu. He believes he could blow a big hole then Super Buu points out his tiny size. If Goku knew he lost power then anything he says is already suspect. If Goku didn't know he lost power then he would be comparing his power and Vegeta's diminished power to Super Buu's normal power and even then his comparison would be suspect. Either way, we have a direct comparison later on from Goku himself. Goku believes his full power can beat Kid Buu. A minute later he states that the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power is not enough. This is where I point out again that the incomplete Genki Dama is undeniably stronger than Gohan's power. So if Goku feels like his full power can beat Kid Buu then that means he's stronger than the incomplete Genki Dama which itself is stronger than Gohan.

Who knows when he'd eventually come before Enma to be judged though. When Goku arrived at Enma's after returning to the afterlife, we saw it was swamped with souls, and that was just from the few cities Buu had destroyed at the time. Factor in Buu's annihilation of the entire population (billions of people vs. the thousands beforehand) and he'd be that much more swamped before finally getting to Gohan and the boys. Couple that with Buu having access to Kai Kai, and by the time that Enma may have reached Gohan for judging, who knows how many countless worlds Buu would have destroyed.

Most of the population was already destroyed though with Fat Buu. Super Buu is just killing what little was left. Goku's line states that everyone would have died. If we say that Gohan might have been revived or he might not have been and that this opens up the possibility that he would definitely beat Kid Buu, then Goku's statement is wrong. Goku's statement is clear. Everyone would have died. It's inevitable without Satan and Fat Buu. There's no possibility of Gohan saving the day even though it's possible he might be brought back.

I also point out again the Daizenshuu excerpt. It outlines what the manga meant by this. It says Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu are fighting for the universe and if they lose the universe is doomed. This is after Satan forces Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu so by this point we know it's talking about the Genki Dama.

That first entry is exactly what I was saying though. Gohan's a non-factor at this point because he's dead. That entire "act" is talking about what was transpiring before the Earth was even restored, much less the Genki Dama being proposed.

The Super manga, again, shows no indication that it's specifically about the events of Pure Buu, and instead could very well be a synopsis of the entire Buu arc, especially given that the whole thing is framed to be a recap of what happened since we last "saw" Goku and the others.

That third entry...where does it say Gohan wouldn't have been able to match it or that Buu would have deflected it if he tried? There is no way that can be drawn from what is mentioned there at all. Considering that Gohan only donated a portion of his total power to the Genki Dama (given that he and everyone else in the world only donated genki), he easily could have had the ability to produce a blast more powerful than anything Buu could have defended against. If you're going solely by it being the "maximum level of power", then you're arguing that the Genki Dama was above Vegetto, and that's nonsensical. If you're going by the fact that Gohan's contribution wasn't enough, again, that was only his genki and not his whole ki.

The first entry addresses your earlier claim that Satan was only required to save the universe because he forced Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu. Daizenshuu tells us that if Goku Vegeta and Fat Buu lost, the universe would have been destroyed. This identifies the time frame that we're talking about. The second scan likewise proves even more that the pivotal moment that was needed from Satan was his appeal for the Genki Dama. It's stated over and over again from multiple sources that Satan's appeal was the big reason he helped save the universe but you cannot accept it so you insist spitting out Fat Buu was his universe saving role. When I say it's Genki Dama or bust, I can cite Daizenshuu, both versions of DBS and even the original manga which all highlight how Satan saved the universe by appealing to the Earth. When you say spitting out Fat Buu was his pivotal role, do you have any actual evidence that acknowledges this narrative?

The third scan highlights the same point I keep making and you keep ignoring. Buu was destroyed by a maximum level of power. Buu can deflect this maximum level of power and this level power power is stronger than Gohan's power. So we actually have multiple defined levels that are above Gohan here:
Complete Super Genki Dama (Maximum level of power) > Goku's full power (minute of charging) > Kid Buu > Incomplete Genki Dama (With Gohan's Ki) > Gohan's power
The entire above sequence is confirmed by statements from the manga and DBS. Goku says his full power can beat Kid Buu. He says the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power cannot. ToP confirms that a Super Genki Dama is stronger than the power of those that are donating.

I've seen and heard countless times (In news or other RL-related stories, so not dramatizations or fiction) of people losing their memories and others saying that that person "died" or something similar to that effect. The person that Evil Buu was at that point, his mind, his memories, etc, died when Mr. Buu was removed. He physically was still the same Buu that he was before, just what made him unique is gone forever....Buu was reincarnated. The same Buu that was the Pure Evil Buu, all the forms of Evil Buu, and then what eventually was Pure Buu was reincarnated.

So let's go with this analogy. A husband and wife get into a car accident. The wife loses her memory and reverts to a point in her memory before she loved her husband. If the husband is now speaking to his amnesiatic wife, which version of his wife is he talking about? Is it the one that ceased to exist and metaphorically died or the one he's actually physically standing in front of exchanging words with? This is your analogy remember. That's the same exact issue we have with Kid Buu. Goku is physically in front of Kid Buu talking to him, saluting him and wishing he could be reborn. Which version of Buu is he talking about? Kid Buu or Super Buu? Which version of the wife is the husband talking to? The one he's physically having a conversation with or the past version that metaphorically died which would require literal time travel to speak with? You're trying really hard to avoid acknowlding the obvious here. Goku is speaking with Kid Buu and Kid Buu is the one that was reincarnated.

[shadowfox87]

Neither Gohan nor Gotenks can match the Genki Dama's raw power. So if Kid Buu can deflect it, how are either of the Half-Saiyans going to beat Kid Buu with any of their blasts? They could put in all their power into it and it would still be weak enough for Kid Buu to deflect. I'm going to point out again how the ToP Genki Dama proves that the Genki Dama that incomplete Genki Dama that Gohan donated Ki to was stronger than Gohan himself and Kid Buu was able to deflect it. So Goku's full power is stronger than Kid Buu is stronger than the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan.

Kid Buu isn't deflecting it; he's pushing it back. Pushing back the Genki Dama does not automatically mean that you are stronger than the Genki Dama itself. It's not based on how strong the Genki Dama is but based on the person throwing it. Goku's energy was depleted and hence, he had barely any strength to throw or push it. His strength was restored and he was able to push it back easily in just SSJ. Genki Dama's raw power is above anyone in the Buu saga. Gohan and Gotenks of course are weaker than the Genki Dama. That doesn't mean anything. If A > B and C > B, you can't say anything about the relationship between A and C. Buu is weaker than the Genki Dama and so is everyone else. Pushing it back has nothing to do with how much more power you have. Don't use DBS anime logic to try to justify what has already occurred in the DBZ manga for last 20 years. The ToP Genki Dama was just a very very small version with Genki only from a few fighters. In the manga, I bet they aren't even going to do it. You have logic and evidence already to say what is already known - Super Buu > Kid Buu, but you're basically using your own interpretation that pushing back a Genki Dama means you are stronger than the entire Genki Dama itself and this is based on ToP anime. One interpretation from ToP anime doesn't override all the other pieces of evidence in DBZ manga.

Genki Dama > everyone
Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu

[MisterGuyMan]

Kid Buu isn't deflecting it; he's pushing it back. Pushing back the Genki Dama does not automatically mean that you are stronger than the Genki Dama itself. It's not based on how strong the Genki Dama is but based on the person throwing it. Goku's energy was depleted and hence, he had barely any strength to throw or push it. His strength was restored and he was able to push it back easily in just SSJ. Genki Dama's raw power is above anyone in the Buu saga. Gohan and Gotenks of course are weaker than the Genki Dama. That doesn't mean anything. If A > B and C > B, you can't say anything about the relationship between A and C. Buu is weaker than the Genki Dama and so is everyone else. Pushing it back has nothing to do with how much more power you have. Don't use DBS anime logic to try to justify what has already occurred in the DBZ manga for last 20 years. The ToP Genki Dama was just a very very small version with Genki only from a few fighters. In the manga, I bet they aren't even going to do it. You have logic and evidence already to say what is already known - Super Buu > Kid Buu, but you're basically using your own interpretation that pushing back a Genki Dama means you are stronger than the entire Genki Dama itself and this is based on ToP anime. One interpretation from ToP anime doesn't override all the other pieces of evidence in DBZ manga.

Genki Dama > everyone
Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku > Kid Buu

This isn't true at all. There is no way SSJ Goku is as strong as Kid Buu so using your logic, Kid Buu should have won that battle. You said the pushing it back is based on the person throwing it right? So how is Kid Buu losing to SS Goku? In the ToP, Jiren had to power up greater against the Genki Dama than he did against SSBKKx20 Goku. So the Genki Dama is stronger that SSBKKx20 Goku in terms of raw power and it was harder for Jiren to handle that anything SSBKKx20 Goku was able to manage by himself. Goku powering up does help the Genki Dama but the Genki Dama by itself is still much stronger than anyone that donated with or without Goku's additional help.

[shadowfox87]

This isn't true at all. There is no way SSJ Goku is as strong as Kid Buu so using your logic, Kid Buu should have won that battle. You said the pushing it back is based on the person throwing it right? So how is Kid Buu losing to SS Goku? In the ToP, Jiren had to power up greater against the Genki Dama than he did against SSBKKx20 Goku. So the Genki Dama is stronger that SSBKKx20 Goku in terms of raw power and it was harder for Jiren to handle that anything SSBKKx20 Goku was able to manage by himself. Goku powering up does help the Genki Dama but the Genki Dama by itself is still much stronger than anyone that donated with or without Goku's additional help.

Again, saying that the Genki Dama > everyone and the person who is able to push it back is also > everyone is faulty logic. Do not use one DBS anime scene as a way to justify what occurred in DBZ manga over 20 years ago that everyone has established. The pushing of the Genki Dama back and forth is based on a lot of things. It's just physics, an object needs to be pushed by another force to create momentum. If there's no force or weak force, then the object will have less momentum and an opposite greater force can change its direction. The object in this case is a heavy ball of energy or the Spirit Bomb. In DBZ, Goku didn't turn SSJ3 to push back the Genki Dama because SSJ was sufficient. This may be due to several factors. It may be because Goku's full stamina was restored and powering up to SSJ3 was unnecessary. It does not mean that SSJ Goku > Kid Buu. This is what you are saying, not me. Pushing back the Genki Dama does not mean necessarily you are stronger or weaker than the Genki Dama itself. You are creating your own retcon based on DBS anime when all other logic presented to you in the DBZ manga says otherwise. In the DBS anime, Jiren was indeed above Goku's mini Genki Dama but that scene does not invalidating what already occurred in the Buu saga. I'm not even sure why DBS anime even did that scene. I'm sure that Toyotaro will not have the Genki Dama at all in the ToP.

[Darkprince410]

It's preponderance of evidence. There is so much evidence leaning towards everyone talking about Ki that you actually need to go out of your way to assume everyone is just using the wrong term. If you really want to get technical, there's no reason not to just treat Genki and Ki as synonyms with regards to the Genki Dama anyway. No one can gather courage or rightmindedness as raw power. No one ever says there's a real difference and they use the terms interchangeably.

There is no evidence leaning toward everyone talking about ki and meaning actual ki though. None at all. You keep saying that it's clear from the examples you gave, but at no point can it be said with any degree of certainty, whether from the lines in the manga or the entry in the Daizenshuu, that it's ki as in the entirety of ki. Toriyama himself laid out there's a difference between genki and ki. It doesn't matter whether or not there's a technique that can gather yuuki or shouki or seiki or any of the other elements of ki, as there is a technique that gathers the genki from ki.

Has *Vegeta* used it this way?

Until the Buu arc, Vegeta hasn't spoken once of the Genki Dama in any way in reference to genki or ki. So this is his first time ever speaking of it. That being said, we have Goku speaking of it during this arc too, and he HAS used ki and genki interchangeably before when speaking of the Genki Dama.

Nothing in the picture shows us that the multiple absorptions didn't weaken Buu. It's an interesting picture with Super Buu, Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu. Why not use it?

Again, if you were going to use a picture to illustrate a fact, would you, in all logical sense, use a scene that readily contradicts that fact (going by your take on events that Pure Buu is stronger). No. You'd sooner want something supporting the fact, otherwise you're just invalidating it.

None of your replies are relevant to what we were discussing. You wanted to argue that Goku sensed Kid Buu got weaker when he appeared. There's no evidence of that in the first place and after Kid Buu screams, Goku never once even implies anything resembling weakness for Kid Buu. Kid Buu screaming and Goku freaking out tells us Goku didn't anticipate he had that power.

It doesn't invalidate it though because he still believes he can do something. With Evil Buu, he is convinced that the two of them stance no chance unless they 1) weaken him further, or 2) fuse. After Pure Buu forms, Goku maintains, from his formation up until he can no longer hold Super Saiyan 3 (so well after the "freak out", as you say) that he can defeat Pure Buu on his own. This is a clear indication of a power loss on Buu's part.

We know that Goku wasn't at full power when he was inside Super Buu. He believes he could blow a big hole then Super Buu points out his tiny size. If Goku knew he lost power then anything he says is already suspect. If Goku didn't know he lost power then he would be comparing his power and Vegeta's diminished power to Super Buu's normal power and even then his comparison would be suspect. Either way, we have a direct comparison later on from Goku himself. Goku believes his full power can beat Kid Buu. A minute later he states that the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power is not enough. This is where I point out again that the incomplete Genki Dama is undeniably stronger than Gohan's power. So if Goku feels like his full power can beat Kid Buu then that means he's stronger than the incomplete Genki Dama which itself is stronger than Gohan.

Goku is speaking of him and Vegeta when they left Buu's body, a level of power he'd clearly and readily know, especially considering that he's talking about their odds, period. He and Vegeta aren't in transformed states, so he's going off memory of how strong they'd be outside, not from actual sensing.

Considering that Gohan's power, in that case, is only his genki, and not his full ki, that's a moot point. All that can be drawn from that is that Goku's full power is above the amount of genki that Gohan had donated.

Most of the population was already destroyed though with Fat Buu. Super Buu is just killing what little was left. Goku's line states that everyone would have died. If we say that Gohan might have been revived or he might not have been and that this opens up the possibility that he would definitely beat Kid Buu, then Goku's statement is wrong. Goku's statement is clear. Everyone would have died. It's inevitable without Satan and Fat Buu. There's no possibility of Gohan saving the day even though it's possible he might be brought back.

By the time Goku had returned to the afterlife, Buu had only destroyed a handful of cities. The bulk of what had transpired took place after Goku's return, thus if he was swamped by only a couple cities, then Enma would be insanely held up, and have no time to judge Gohan. Goku's line doesn't, for a second, invalidate Gohan having the capacity to destroy Buu if he had had the chance to fight him.

I also point out again the Daizenshuu excerpt. It outlines what the manga meant by this. It says Goku, Vegeta and Fat Buu are fighting for the universe and if they lose the universe is doomed. This is after Satan forces Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu so by this point we know it's talking about the Genki Dama.

Mr. Buu was also fighting against Pure Buu before the Earth had even been restored and the population resurrected. Again, nothing about that specifies it's about the Genki Dama, since Mr. Buu was fighting against Pure Buu before the Genki Dama had even been proposed.

The first entry addresses your earlier claim that Satan was only required to save the universe because he forced Kid Buu to spit out Fat Buu. Daizenshuu tells us that if Goku Vegeta and Fat Buu lost, the universe would have been destroyed. This identifies the time frame that we're talking about. The second scan likewise proves even more that the pivotal moment that was needed from Satan was his appeal for the Genki Dama. It's stated over and over again from multiple sources that Satan's appeal was the big reason he helped save the universe but you cannot accept it so you insist spitting out Fat Buu was his universe saving role. When I say it's Genki Dama or bust, I can cite Daizenshuu, both versions of DBS and even the original manga which all highlight how Satan saved the universe by appealing to the Earth. When you say spitting out Fat Buu was his pivotal role, do you have any actual evidence that acknowledges this narrative?

Except that nothing about Goku's line about them all being done in if it hadn't been for Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu specifically says that he's referring to Mr. Satan's appeal to the population. Was his contribution to that, given the course of events that went down, critical? Yes. There's no denying that, but we know for an absolute fact, all the same, that if Mr. Satan hadn't triggered Mr. Buu to be spat out, everyone would have been doomed too. But let's go back to it being about the Genki Dama. Mr. Satan doesn't manage to get people to contribute and Buu kills them. Now we have Buu, with the Kai Kai ability, able to freely teleport wherever he is without needing a ki source or anything to detect. He teleports back to Earth in some location where Gohan isn't and instantly goes to destroy it like he did before. Gohan doesn't even get a chance to attack him, Earth's gone, your narrative about Mr. Satan's contribution still stands.

With the Kai Kai, Buu had every means of being an enemy that could destroy planets without even being touched by Gohan and the others, thus Gohan and Gotenks can readily be stronger while Buu could still destroy them.

The third scan highlights the same point I keep making and you keep ignoring. Buu was destroyed by a maximum level of power. Buu can deflect this maximum level of power and this level power power is stronger than Gohan's power. So we actually have multiple defined levels that are above Gohan here:
Complete Super Genki Dama (Maximum level of power) > Goku's full power (minute of charging) > Kid Buu > Incomplete Genki Dama (With Gohan's Ki) > Gohan's power
The entire above sequence is confirmed by statements from the manga and DBS. Goku says his full power can beat Kid Buu. He says the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power cannot. ToP confirms that a Super Genki Dama is stronger than the power of those that are donating.

Gohan only donated his genki, thus only a fraction of his total power. Your entire argument is moot in this case, as you can only prove that Goku's full power was above Gohan's donated genki, nothing more.

So let's go with this analogy. A husband and wife get into a car accident. The wife loses her memory and reverts to a point in her memory before she loved her husband. If the husband is now speaking to his amnesiatic wife, which version of his wife is he talking about? Is it the one that ceased to exist and metaphorically died or the one he's actually physically standing in front of exchanging words with? This is your analogy remember. That's the same exact issue we have with Kid Buu. Goku is physically in front of Kid Buu talking to him, saluting him and wishing he could be reborn. Which version of Buu is he talking about? Kid Buu or Super Buu? Which version of the wife is the husband talking to? The one he's physically having a conversation with or the past version that metaphorically died which would require literal time travel to speak with? You're trying really hard to avoid acknowlding the obvious here. Goku is speaking with Kid Buu and Kid Buu is the one that was reincarnated.

That's not the same situation though, because while mentally and emotionally the wife is a different person, her soul is still the same soul, and that's the same thing with Evil Buu and Pure Buu. Mentally and emotionally, Evil Buu ceased to exist when Mr. Buu was removed, but in both a physical sense and spiritual sense, it's still the same Buu. So his soul being reincarnated is the same soul being passed along. Goku may be speaking of Buu specifically in regards to Pure Buu because that's the one he fought, but it doesn't change that it's the same Buu as before.

This isn't true at all. There is no way SSJ Goku is as strong as Kid Buu so using your logic, Kid Buu should have won that battle. You said the pushing it back is based on the person throwing it right? So how is Kid Buu losing to SS Goku? In the ToP, Jiren had to power up greater against the Genki Dama than he did against SSBKKx20 Goku. So the Genki Dama is stronger that SSBKKx20 Goku in terms of raw power and it was harder for Jiren to handle that anything SSBKKx20 Goku was able to manage by himself. Goku powering up does help the Genki Dama but the Genki Dama by itself is still much stronger than anyone that donated with or without Goku's additional help.

A strong counterpoint to your argument is Goku's use of the Genki Dama against Freeza. It was something Freeza was physically incapable of stopping or even slowing down, yet it was still too weak to get the job done. And remember, when it came to the amount of power the Genki Dama against Jiren had, Belmod was even worried about Jiren's chances of surviving it, but it was Goku's lack of power against Jiren that came into play.

[MisterGuyMan]

Again, saying that the Genki Dama > everyone and the person who is able to push it back is also > everyone is faulty logic. Do not use one DBS anime scene as a way to justify what occurred in DBZ manga over 20 years ago that everyone has established....This is what you are saying, not me. Pushing back the Genki Dama does not mean necessarily you are stronger or weaker than the Genki Dama itself. You are creating your own retcon based on DBS anime when all other logic presented to you in the DBZ manga says otherwise. In the DBS anime, Jiren was indeed above Goku's mini Genki Dama but that scene does not invalidating what already occurred in the Buu saga. I'm not even sure why DBS anime even did that scene. I'm sure that Toyotaro will not have the Genki Dama at all in the ToP.

The comparison here is between Kid Buu and Gohan. Yes, Kid Buu is able to push back the Genki Dama and this is a feat of raw power that Gohan would not be able to replicate. I know you dislike what the facts tell us but facts are still facts. DBS anime tells us that Gohan is weaker than a Super Genki Dama that Gohan donates energy to. The DBS manga will, in all likelihood,follow the same plot point. Mastered SSB will not be enough and a Super Genki Dama will push Jiren more than MSSB Goku. This also neatly explains who no one suggested that Gohan just teleport in and save the day, because he would have lost.

There is no evidence leaning toward everyone talking about ki and meaning actual ki though. None at all. You keep saying that it's clear from the examples you gave, but at no point can it be said with any degree of certainty, whether from the lines in the manga or the entry in the Daizenshuu, that it's ki as in the entirety of ki. Toriyama himself laid out there's a difference between genki and ki. It doesn't matter whether or not there's a technique that can gather yuuki or shouki or seiki or any of the other elements of ki, as there is a technique that gathers the genki from ki.

If we go purely by the material, Ki, Power and Genki are all used interchangeably. My interpretation provides a difference. Yours does not. So if you insist on your reading, you can no longer complain if I use them interchangeably too because that's exactly how the manga uses those terms in regards to the Genki Dama.

Until the Buu arc, Vegeta hasn't spoken once of the Genki Dama in any way in reference to genki or ki. So this is his first time ever speaking of it. That being said, we have Goku speaking of it during this arc too, and he HAS used ki and genki interchangeably before when speaking of the Genki Dama.

Ok so if you are claiming that the manga has no issue using those terms interchangeably then why can't we use the terms interchangeably? It's also used interchangeably with power too.

Again, if you were going to use a picture to illustrate a fact, would you, in all logical sense, use a scene that readily contradicts that fact (going by your take on events that Pure Buu is stronger). No. You'd sooner want something supporting the fact, otherwise you're just invalidating it.

There is no contradiction. You keep talking about this contradiction and I keep replying that there isn't one. Any loss of an absorption here would do. This picture also has Super Buu which is the product of all the lost absorptions weakening him.

It doesn't invalidate it though because he still believes he can do something. With Evil Buu, he is convinced that the two of them stance no chance unless they 1) weaken him further, or 2) fuse. After Pure Buu forms, Goku maintains, from his formation up until he can no longer hold Super Saiyan 3 (so well after the "freak out", as you say) that he can defeat Pure Buu on his own. This is a clear indication of a power loss on Buu's part.

Weakening Buu futher is the flip side of regaining their normal power. Goku doesn't have his full power here and any statement he makes here only applies to his current weakened state. You might have a point if we didn't have Goku openly state that he could beat Kid Buu with his power and then immediately say later that Gohan's power probably wasn't enough. This is where we go back to how Goku's full power is now greater than the incomplete Genki Dama and the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan's full power. Later statements take precedence over earlier statements.

Goku is speaking of him and Vegeta when they left Buu's body, a level of power he'd clearly and readily know, especially considering that he's talking about their odds, period. He and Vegeta aren't in transformed states, so he's going off memory of how strong they'd be outside, not from actual sensing....Considering that Gohan's power, in that case, is only his genki, and not his full ki, that's a moot point. All that can be drawn from that is that Goku's full power is above the amount of genki that Gohan had donated.

How does Goku know he will regain his normal power? There's no reason to believe he would know that. This is why tiny Goku's statements aren't as reliable as normal powered Goku's statements later on. I don't have to assume what Goku meant. He just says he can charge up his Ki and beat Kid Buu. Then he says the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power probably can't replicate the same thing. Then I cite DBS which proves the incomplete Genki Dama would stronger than Gohan's full power. It's a simple case of comparing them all.

By the time Goku had returned to the afterlife, Buu had only destroyed a handful of cities. The bulk of what had transpired took place after Goku's return, thus if he was swamped by only a couple cities, then Enma would be insanely held up, and have no time to judge Gohan. Goku's line doesn't, for a second, invalidate Gohan having the capacity to destroy Buu if he had had the chance to fight him.

It does because you're making assumptions on what Yemma can or cannot do. My position is simple. Whatever Yemma could or couldn't do, Goku's statement tells us that it would have failed. By the time Goku made this statement we know that they used three wishes. So Yemma is just one way to get Gohan into the fight. Kami and Kibiti Kai was another way. Goku ITing Gohan is a fourth way. Any way you look at it, there was nothing stopping Gohan from coming back.

Mr. Buu was also fighting against Pure Buu before the Earth had even been restored and the population resurrected. Again, nothing about that specifies it's about the Genki Dama, since Mr. Buu was fighting against Pure Buu before the Genki Dama had even been proposed.

But you're now ignoring Mr. Satan. DBS manga says that Earth was facing extinction and the only thing that stopped it is Mr Satan's appeal to the Earthlings. I took some time to just collect a few of these sources all trying to tell us that Satan's pivotal role in saving the universe was his appeal for the Genki Dama:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
So when I make the claim that Goku is talking about the Genki Dama when he says Fat Buu and Satan saved everyone, that's not me. It's an important plot point that has been repeatedly emphasized over and over even decades since it happened.

Except that nothing about Goku's line about them all being done in if it hadn't been for Mr. Satan and Mr. Buu specifically says that he's referring to Mr. Satan's appeal to the population. Was his contribution to that, given the course of events that went down, critical? Yes. There's no denying that, but we know for an absolute fact, all the same, that if Mr. Satan hadn't triggered Mr. Buu to be spat out, everyone would have been doomed too. But let's go back to it being about the Genki Dama. Mr. Satan doesn't manage to get people to contribute and Buu kills them. Now we have Buu, with the Kai Kai ability, able to freely teleport wherever he is without needing a ki source or anything to detect. He teleports back to Earth in some location where Gohan isn't and instantly goes to destroy it like he did before. Gohan doesn't even get a chance to attack him, Earth's gone, your narrative about Mr. Satan's contribution still stands....With the Kai Kai, Buu had every means of being an enemy that could destroy planets without even being touched by Gohan and the others, thus Gohan and Gotenks can readily be stronger while Buu could still destroy them.

You're saying that it's an absolute fact that Kid Buu would have killed everyone if Fat Buu didn't stall. If Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu then there's no way you can claim that we don't know that as a fact at all. Goku is his conversation with Vegeta was not thinking about Kid Buu blowing up planets indiscriminately:
[spoiler]Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”[/spoiler]
So like it or not, when Goku made his statement, he was assuming a fair fight was the worst case scenario. Heck Kid Buu also just randomly fell asleep before his fight with Goku. You're making a lot of assumptions about how he would have fought and only cherrypicking the scenarios where Gohan never gets a chance. The other scenarios exist too and several of them would have Gohan getting his chance through various ways via IT, Kibito Kai, DB wishes and Yemma shenanigans. Why are we just ignoring all those scenarios just so we can let Gohan die without a fight?

Gohan only donated his genki, thus only a fraction of his total power. Your entire argument is moot in this case, as you can only prove that Goku's full power was above Gohan's donated genki, nothing more.

I also cited the Tournament of Power. Presumably such a big plot point would have been discussed and came from Toriyama. The DBS manga will likely have Mastered SSB Goku lose to Jiren leading to a Super Genki Dama just like the anime. This is clear proof that Gohan is weaker than the incomplete Genki Dama that he himself donated energy to.

That's not the same situation though, because while mentally and emotionally the wife is a different person, her soul is still the same soul, and that's the same thing with Evil Buu and Pure Buu. Mentally and emotionally, Evil Buu ceased to exist when Mr. Buu was removed, but in both a physical sense and spiritual sense, it's still the same Buu. So his soul being reincarnated is the same soul being passed along. Goku may be speaking of Buu specifically in regards to Pure Buu because that's the one he fought, but it doesn't change that it's the same Buu as before.

There is absolutely no basis for anything you said except for conjecture. Fat Buu has the same soul as Kid Buu. Then Evil Buu appeared that also became Kid Buu's soul.. Fat Buu also makes an entire Buu race of people too. So using your logic, Kid Buu's soul is in thousands of Buu creatures in the future. You're created way too many new contradictions based on nothing but speculation. Do you have any proof that Super Buu's soul is still around? Any proof at all? Because this is getting tiresome. You can have theories but if you want to cite them for an argument you need proof.

A strong counterpoint to your argument is Goku's use of the Genki Dama against Freeza. It was something Freeza was physically incapable of stopping or even slowing down, yet it was still too weak to get the job done. And remember, when it came to the amount of power the Genki Dama against Jiren had, Belmod was even worried about Jiren's chances of surviving it, but it was Goku's lack of power against Jiren that came into play.

The Super Genki Dama is different than the normal Genki Dama. I keep mentioning that the Super Genki Dama was always framed as an OP weapon. The point though is that the ToP example tells us that the momentum of the Genki Dama is stronger than anything SSBKKx20 Goku could do by himself. It also tells us that the raw power of the Super Genki Dama is stronger than the participants power. It's both. So the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger in raw destructive power that anything Gohan can generate himself, and it's harder to deflect by sheer momentum for lack of a better term, than any attack from Gohan as well. No matter how you look at it, the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan.

Your example with SSBKKx20 Goku doesn't actually change this. Even before he turns SSBKK to push the Genki Dama, Jiren was pushed harder by the Genki Dama alone and needed to power up more than his normal level. We also know that the Genki Dama is stronger than SSBKK Goku regardless. This conclusively places Gohan under any Genki Dama in raw power and in destructive capability that he might contribute to.

[theherodjl]

So I guess that DBS now dictates that specific, paste tense power levels of DBZ have to be higher in regards to more recent feats because...those are simply the 'facts'??? Headcanon is a hell of a drug...

[alakazam^]

Do you have an actual source? Herms' translations tend to be very literal and, if anything, hyper accurate even at the expense of flow and readability. Ki has been, for a long time, used synonymously as a measure for power. That's how it's used here too.

Yes.

This reads genki.

Also, about Genkidama and Super Genkidama's guidebook entry:


They read energy and genki, respectively. They are interchangeable terms.

Besides, you have to think about the context of the Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu: are the anime and manga following their rules or are the guidebooks following what the manga and anime established? Because it's easy to see the different entries are taken from what is stated and shown in the manga/anime and turned into fluffed-up text.

The manga contradicts itself too so there's no point in dismissing the official manga guide just because it too has errors. Toriyama said he would have used the Guide had it been around when he was making the manga and he allowed himself to be listed as the author.

Consider this:

Manga - Original story with some errors.
Anime - Adaptation of the original story with even more errors.
Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu - Collects what is stated and shown in both mediums and presents it in a pretty package. Manages to have errors.

If you want to factually discuss the story, which do you choose? The manga, of course. The anime either says the same thing or contradicts it with filler and the Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu can expand upon it BUT, since it's never stated in the story or out of Toriyama's mouth AND it manages to have some errors (when was Bra born? Who used Super Saiyajin and Saiyajin 2 where?), it's easy not to blindly trust what it says.

Besides the "common sense" that the last enemy is the strongest, there's not much in the manga supporting pure Boo being the strongest... Sure, the battle in the Kaioushin Realm is really hyped up but it's not a big stretch to think Toriyama might have changed his mind at the last stretch of the story in order to have Goku being the strongest person around. Even so, what's stated and shown before that didn't disappear.

[MisterGuyMan]

So I guess that DBS now dictates that specific, paste tense power levels of DBZ have to be higher in regards to more recent feats because...those are simply the 'facts'??? Headcanon is a hell of a drug...

The Super Genki Dama hasn't changed. Toriyama acknowledges DBS as a continuation of his story. It's more interesting how you think DBS is somehow my headcanon just because you dislike its implications.

Besides, you have to think about the context of the Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu: are the anime and manga following their rules or are the guidebooks following what the manga and anime established? Because it's easy to see the different entries are taken from what is stated and shown in the manga/anime and turned into fluffed-up text.

Daizenshuu is supplementary. So long as it doesn't actually contradict the manga outright, its information is valid. If anything, when it reinforces what is stated in the manga, it's a stronger case when competing fan theories oppose each other.

Manga - Original story with some errors.
Anime - Adaptation of the original story with even more errors.
Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu - Collects what is stated and shown in both mediums and presents it in a pretty package. Manages to have errors.

If you want to factually discuss the story, which do you choose? The manga, of course. The anime either says the same thing or contradicts it with filler and the Daizenshuu/Chouzenshuu can expand upon it BUT, since it's never stated in the story or out of Toriyama's mouth AND it manages to have some errors (when was Bra born? Who used Super Saiyajin and Saiyajin 2 where?), it's easy not to blindly trust what it says.

Besides the "common sense" that the last enemy is the strongest, there's not much in the manga supporting pure Boo being the strongest... Sure, the battle in the Kaioushin Realm is really hyped up but it's not a big stretch to think Toriyama might have changed his mind at the last stretch of the story in order to have Goku being the strongest person around. Even so, what's stated and shown before that didn't disappear.

It's been 20 years since Kid Buu has been destroyed by the Genki Dama. If Toriyama wanted to clarify and re-iterate that Super Buu was supposed to be the stronger of the unfused Buus then he could have. Instead Daizenshuu has multiple entries saying Kid Buu is the strongest. Then we have both versions of DBS repeating that Kid Buu is the strongest. We know Toriyama acknowledges the manga guide of Daizenshuu as a good source information. We know he works with both versions of DBS and looks over storyboard material. So if you want to call it a retcon you can but the newer information is just repeating the same sentiments that Vegeta said before the Kid/Goku fight, what Goku said after the fight and the general portrayal of the Kid Buu fight as the fight for the universe. Those are in the manga. It's possible to interpret in other ways if you really want to but the supplementary and sequel materials together give us what the intended narrative is supposed to be.

I also contend that Kid Buu pushing back the Genki Dama clearly puts him beyond Gohan even with just the manga. This shows us that even if Gohan tried to match the Genki Dama in power and exhausted all his Ki, Kid Buu would be able to knock it away easily. Kid Buu matching up to the Genki Dama was the story's clear visual of how Kid Buu was matching up equally with the Z universe's most powerful attack. No one else could match that feat of power.

[ZeroNeonix]

Kid Buu was able to catch the Super Spirit Bomb because Goku was tired, not because Kid Buu was so strong. You do remember the solution to that problem, right? Wishing Goku back to full strength so he could push the Spirit Bomb harder?

[MisterGuyMan]

Kid Buu was able to catch the Super Spirit Bomb because Goku was tired, not because Kid Buu was so strong. You do remember the solution to that problem, right? Wishing Goku back to full strength so he could push the Spirit Bomb harder?

The Genki Dama has its own power to account for. Jiren was no selling anything and everything SSBKK Goku was throwing at him with ease but had to try harder just to push back a Genki Dama being pushed at him by a mere base Goku.

[PFM18]

Why has this gone on for this many pages? Pure Boo cannot possibly be the strongest Boo. It doesn't matter if the Genki Dama only used Genki or full Ki: the Z Senshi alone couldn't have donated that much power to the Genki Dama to make it powerful enough to beat even a weak Boo. The purpose was to draw power from the entirety of the Earth's population so that the Genki Dama(which has a horrible track record of success in the main story) could be strong enough to eraticated Boo. Why they didn't bring Gohan & Gotenks along to finish off Pure Boo is purely for the Goku hype-train which even Vegeta had very recently jumped onto. There's no real 'debate' here that isn't just reaching for answers that aren't actually there.

I don't think we can conclude he's stronger than Buuhan or Buutenks but it's definitely possible that it might be retconned that way especially with God Ki. He's definitely now supposed to be stronger than Super Buu though. The Genki Dama in ToP proves that whatever power was in the Buu Saga Genki Dama must have been greater than the combined power of those that donated. The incomplete Genki Dama that Gohan donated too must have been stronger than Gohan himself and this incomplete Genki Dama wasn't enough to beat Kid Buu.

The ToP does not prove anything in particular. We know for certain based on the myriad of evidence that Super Buu is stronger than Pure Buu. The Genki dama in the ToP has nothing to do with this. The characters don't even donate their normal ki so it doesn't make sense to think of it as "more than the sum of their ki." Like was mentioned previously, since Gohan and Gotenks were both on Super Buu level they could have easily handled Pure Buu, however, Vegeta wanted the Earth to save itself.

[Darkprince410]

If we go purely by the material, Ki, Power and Genki are all used interchangeably. My interpretation provides a difference. Yours does not. So if you insist on your reading, you can no longer complain if I use them interchangeably too because that's exactly how the manga uses those terms in regards to the Genki Dama.

When going by the material, ki, genki, and power, when referring to the Genki Dama, only refers to genki. If there was any indication that it was used for ki at all, it'd be one thing, but given all the past examples, they're all in reference to genki and genki only.

There is no contradiction. You keep talking about this contradiction and I keep replying that there isn't one. Any loss of an absorption here would do. This picture also has Super Buu which is the product of all the lost absorptions weakening him.

Because there is one. It's clearly showing the removal of an absorption which, if your course of events were accurate, would result in Buu gaining a permanent increase. That'd be like citing a "fact" that you've never been in trouble with the law, and then you used a picture of you being given a speeding ticket to illustrate the fact. It's a blatant contradiction.

Weakening Buu futher is the flip side of regaining their normal power. Goku doesn't have his full power here and any statement he makes here only applies to his current weakened state. You might have a point if we didn't have Goku openly state that he could beat Kid Buu with his power and then immediately say later that Gohan's power probably wasn't enough. This is where we go back to how Goku's full power is now greater than the incomplete Genki Dama and the incomplete Genki Dama is stronger than Gohan's full power. Later statements take precedence over earlier statements.

The problem with that reasoning is that Goku doesn't physically feel any weaker, so how much ki he actually has isn't indicative of what he feels he has. He clearly feels as strong inside as he does out (otherwise there's no reason for him to have been shocked by his inability to blow a hole in Buu), and thus his comparison would, at least to him, still feel as if it's his normal strength vs. Buu's strength.

And again, given that the incomplete Genki Dama is only stronger than Gohan's genki, and not his total ki, that part is still moot. He didn't donate the entirety of his ki.

How does Goku know he will regain his normal power? There's no reason to believe he would know that. This is why tiny Goku's statements aren't as reliable as normal powered Goku's statements later on. I don't have to assume what Goku meant. He just says he can charge up his Ki and beat Kid Buu. Then he says the incomplete Genki Dama with Gohan's power probably can't replicate the same thing. Then I cite DBS which proves the incomplete Genki Dama would stronger than Gohan's full power. It's a simple case of comparing them all.

Super doesn't prove that the incomplete Genki Dama was stronger than Gohan's full power. Gohan didn't contribute his full power to the Genki Dama, just his genki, and it was only that which was indicated to not be enough to defeat Buu.

It does because you're making assumptions on what Yemma can or cannot do. My position is simple. Whatever Yemma could or couldn't do, Goku's statement tells us that it would have failed. By the time Goku made this statement we know that they used three wishes. So Yemma is just one way to get Gohan into the fight. Kami and Kibiti Kai was another way. Goku ITing Gohan is a fourth way. Any way you look at it, there was nothing stopping Gohan from coming back.

It's also you making assumptions on what Enma can and cannot do. Do you think Baba has the capacity to get Gohan to Kaioushin's planet? Do you think Kibitoshin or Goku had the energy left to get Gohan to Kaioushin's, especially when it's even directly stated that Kibitoshin had no energy left to teleport, and Goku was likewise too worn out.

And don't forget, Goku himself felt that Vegeta's plan was for Gohan and Gotenks to come in and fight, and if they were as weak as you're proposing, they should have been functionally worthless. Not even fight alongside them or anything, but just fight, period, meaning they're the ones doing all the combating. In his mind, he had to have seen that as some degree of a viable option if it was what he anticipated Vegeta's plan to be.

So when I make the claim that Goku is talking about the Genki Dama when he says Fat Buu and Satan saved everyone, that's not me. It's an important plot point that has been repeatedly emphasized over and over even decades since it happened.

Or Goku is talking about their contributions in general. Just because one of his contributions involved the Genki Dama's donations doesn't undermind that they wouldn't have even had the opportunity to create one if it hadn't been for Mr. Satan causing Mr. Buu to be expelled, giving them another combatant on the field that was able to stall Buu long enough.

His being there and causing Mr. Buu's expulsion is easily as major, if not moreso, than the Genki Dama donation.

So like it or not, when Goku made his statement, he was assuming a fair fight was the worst case scenario. Heck Kid Buu also just randomly fell asleep before his fight with Goku. You're making a lot of assumptions about how he would have fought and only cherrypicking the scenarios where Gohan never gets a chance. The other scenarios exist too and several of them would have Gohan getting his chance through various ways via IT, Kibito Kai, DB wishes and Yemma shenanigans. Why are we just ignoring all those scenarios just so we can let Gohan die without a fight?

Goku thought that Vegeta's plan involved Gohan being there, so again, he thought it was a viable plan. It was Vegeta's plan which essentially removed Gohan from being a viable alternative. There's no indication that Baba could get Gohan to Kaioushin Kai, Kibitoshin was too drained to be able to teleport, and Goku was in a similarly drained situation (hence the use of the third Dragon Ball wish).

A worse case scenario, in his mind, by his own words, is him and Vegeta fighting again. Thus he clearly sees there being better alternatives, which readily could include Gohan and Gotenks fighting.

And likewise, Goku's comment is about if Buu appeared again because they allowed Mr. Buu to live, not the circumstances that would have potentially occurred if Buu had successfully defeated them on Kaioushin Kai, which is what I was referring to.

There is absolutely no basis for anything you said except for conjecture. Fat Buu has the same soul as Kid Buu. Then Evil Buu appeared that also became Kid Buu's soul.. Fat Buu also makes an entire Buu race of people too. So using your logic, Kid Buu's soul is in thousands of Buu creatures in the future. You're created way too many new contradictions based on nothing but speculation. Do you have any proof that Super Buu's soul is still around? Any proof at all? Because this is getting tiresome. You can have theories but if you want to cite them for an argument you need proof.

I'm creating no contradictions. I'm giving you the simplest explanation given all the observations provided to us in the story. Mr. Buu is the one that created the race of Buu-like individuals, and he no longer had any of Pure Buu's soul in him once he expelled the Pure Evil Buu (in the same way that Daimao and Kami do not share the same souls). The soul that was reincarnated into Uub appeared first as the Pure Evil Buu, and through absorptions and removal of absorptions became Evil Buu, then all his variations, and eventually Pure Buu. That's how that line of his soul went before the reincarnation.