So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

[theherodjl]

Base Goku should now be far stronger than anything SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan were capable of in the Buu saga. Meaning, even if SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) had turned SSJ3 and teamed up with Buuhan, current Base Goku would wreck them with minimal effort.

Buuhan would go down instantly while a few attacks from a semi-serious Base Goku is likely enough to bring SSJ3 Vegetto to his knees. Final Form Frieza should be able wreck SSJ3 Vegetto and Buuhan just as easily, given how he's presumably on par with Base Goku. The Buu saga is basically a joke at this point as far as power goes.

If you're referring to manga Vegetto then probably. Anime Vegetto is another story. Even just in base form, Vegetto was beating Boohan. Multiply that strength by 400x for SSJ3, and you get a guy with a power level of several trillions. I don't think Base Goku & Vegeta are quite that high yet, but they are getting there.

[JazzMazz]

Though I think it gets a little messy at getting a good read of where base Goku stands in comparison to his Z self, I think it was heavily implied during the TOP arc specifically, that while Goku is insanely powerful, his base form still fits in comfortably to where to the high Super Saiyan levels of late Z. I would say his a bit above his Super Saiyan 2 self in the Buu arc.

I'm basing this off his showing against guys like Basil and Piccolo, who are both given actual narrative context for comparison to how they relate to characters of the previous era.

Basil was a character who was shown to be vastly weaker than good Buu, an iteration of the character who though weaker than his full power Majin power, was still able to give pure Buu a better fight than an SS2 Vegeta in the Buu arc. Judging by that, I think its safe to put Basil at the regular SS level, which makes sense considering all his brothers seem to be in a similar league, with Lavender even forcing a weakened Gohan to go Super Saiyan to get an edge.

Piccolo is shown to be a character thats able to fight and defeat SS2 Gohan in a fight. Since Gohan is shown and said multiple times to be weaker than he was at his prime, and him only regaining, specifically, his power from the Buu arc, I think its safe to assume that Piccolo was dealing with a Gohan who was at least at a similar level to what he was in the Buu arc, if only slightly stronger. However, later on, Piccolo is shown to only be able to keep up with the base level Saiyans, and even a little weaker, with Gohan constantly needing to save Piccolo in his base form during fights, as well as Gohan generally performing better under similar situations. In direct contrast to Goku, Piccolo used his full power explosive attack that was exactly the same as the one he used on Goku in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, where they were both even. Surprisingly, it has very similar results as in the 23rd Budokai, with Goku only narrowly resisting the attack. I think, since the circumstances mirrored what they were in the 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi, and since we already have a clear idea of where Piccolo stand power wise due to his aforementioned fight with Goku, I think its also save to assume that Goku's base form is at least at a similar, or greater level than Piccolo's.

Either way, that would still put him at the SS2 tier levels of power, or slightly greater than the SS2 tier levels of power found in the Buu arc. Thats really my theory on how strong Goku's base is.


Sorry about that.

[sunsetshimmer]

How much he could improve in 48 minutes?

Base DBS Goku is probably around his SSJ3 self from Buu saga now.
His SSJ still struggled with Ultimate Gohan.

Don't forget that EoZ still happens after Super and base Goku was having a little trouble with angry Uub.
Goku obviously didn't get much stronger between DBS and EoZ cause he didn't see Vegeta for those years so he most likely didn't train with Beerus or anything like that. We saw him training at his home with Goten.

[theherodjl]

How much he could improve in 48 minutes?

Base DBS Goku is probably around his SSJ3 self from Buu saga now.
His SSJ still struggled with Ultimate Gohan.

Don't forget that EoZ still happens after Super and base Goku was having a little trouble with angry Uub.
Goku obviously didn't get much stronger between DBS and EoZ cause he didn't see Vegeta for those years so he most likely didn't train with Beerus or anything like that. We saw him training at his home with Goten.

Prior to the Black-arc, Base Goku was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by a large amount. After the ToP, Goku ought to be quite a bit higher than that even. His base has long since surpassed his Boo-arc SSJ3 self.

[sunsetshimmer]

Prior to the Black-arc, Base Goku was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by a large amount. After the ToP, Goku ought to be quite a bit higher than that even. His base has long since surpassed his Boo-arc SSJ3 self.

I don't know. DBS is too inconsistent. Copy-Vegeta (basically base Vegeta) tanked a kick from Gotenks SSJ3, yet Goku had to use SSJ3 against Trunks SSJ2 who said Dabura was tough enemy. And Goku was actually equal to Gohan before he got back his Ultimate form and overall his old power from Z.

Not even mentioning the ultra bs scenes of Goku struggling with weaklings like Roshi or Krillin. That's not gonna help.

[PFM18]

Prior to the Black-arc, Base Goku was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks by a large amount. After the ToP, Goku ought to be quite a bit higher than that even. His base has long since surpassed his Boo-arc SSJ3 self.

I don't know. DBS is too inconsistent. Copy-Vegeta (basically base Vegeta) tanked a kick from Gotenks SSJ3, yet Goku had to use SSJ3 against Trunks SSJ2 who said Dabura was tough enemy. And Goku was actually equal to Gohan before he got back his Ultimate form and overall his old power from Z.

Not even mentioning the ultra bs scenes of Goku struggling with weaklings like Roshi or Krillin. That's not gonna help.

Goku was not equal to Gohan before he got back his Ultimate form. Goku was sparring with his son who he knows hasn't been training, of course he takes it easy on him. SSJ2 Trunks said Dabura was a tough enemy but we don't know where that falls in the timeline. In the story, we haven't seen Trunks in 13 years. So it is possible Dabura showed up 3 years in and Trunks beat him and then the following 10 years he gained a massive boost. And he didn't HAVE to use SSJ3. Trunks said Black was stronger than the power that Goku used against Trunks as a SSJ3, but then Goku beats Black in SSJ2. So obviously that implies he was holding back against Trunks as a SSJ3.

Base DBS Goku is probably around his SSJ3 self from Buu saga now.

I don't mean to be rude but this statement is just laughable. The series established that Goku is several magnitudes above his SSJ3 self in Base. There is a laundry list of things that illustrate this.

Since this fits, I will drop my thoughts I had in another forum about Goku's strength in Base by the end of Super:

[spoiler]First, I am starting off with the Buu saga to give an idea of how things evolve. For the sake of simplicity and readability,(I won't have 10 '0's at the end of everything) I will be using SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga as a 1.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 8 ##because SSJ1 Gotenks was said to be able to defeat Buu and using the SEG multipliers
Super Buu: 7 ##since Gotenks had a slight edge and Goku wouldn't even attempt to fight this Buu.
Ultimate Gohan: 12 ##dominated Buu and is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Buuhan: 19 ##just adding the values for Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu.
Base Vegetto: 25 ##doesn't give a very good idea of where Base Vegetto stands in the manga but he dominates Buuhan in the anime.
Super Vegetto:1250
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto: 10,000

Now this is where things start to come into view in Super. For 3 reasons, I have determined that SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegetto by a significant amount:
1. Goku says that fusion wouldn't work against the heavily suppressed Beerus on King Kai's planet.
2. Goku, upon achieving Super Saiyan god says that he didn't even know that a level of power like that could even exist.
3. The same Beerus that Goku said fusion wasn't enough for, had to power up further in order to fight evenly with SSG Goku

All of this assuming that Goku knows that he could go SSJ3 as Vegetto and knew where that power would stand. I think that is a fair assumption.

So where I see things standing looks like this:

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post ritual): 22,000
Base Goku: 440

Since there was implied to be a pretty large gap between SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto, I thought a 2x difference would be appropriate. Upon the SSG ritual expiring, Goku doensn't even notice and continues fighting. He doesn't notice that he is a normal SSJ until Beerus points it out to him. At this point he says that that is weird because he doesn't feel any weaker. Beerus explains that he must have infused the power within himself.(This is when he is in his SSJ form.)Afterwards he keeps fighting and eventually outperforms what he did as a SSG and the episode title outright says that he surpassed it. so a this point SSG Goku~SSJ Goku(post ritual). I do not subscribe to the notion that Goku's base was stronger than SSG from that point forward.

Then, Goku and Vegeta have intense training with Whis and gain a significant amount of power. When GOku shows up then he says that Vegeta has surpassed him and that his ki is unrecognizable from what it was before. Whis teaches them about god ki, and how to control their ki. So I think that it is fair to say that there was a large increase and another 2x increase would be appropriate:

ROF Base Goku: 880

This unbelievably powerful Goku corrobates with the fact that Freeza's first form now dominates everybody but he goes into his Final Form and still can't beat Base Goku.(since on Namek First Form->Final Form(50%) yielded a 113x boost from 530k->60M before he buffed up.) It stands to reason that this first form freeza got over a hundred times stronger upon going into his Final Form and he still lost to Goku.

Now, following the shenanigans of ROF, Goku and Vegeta train for 3 years in the ROSAT. Vegeta comments that they were approaching their limit and implied that their power increase was lower than expected and not a particularly dramatic increase. For this reason, I think an estimation of a 25% increase in power seems reasonable.

Base Goku U6 tournament: 1100

Disregarding the specifics that follow this, we know for certain that from U6 tourny->post Zamasu Arc, GOku got atleast 10x stronger because he was able to break Hit's time dimension without using Kaioken this time.(This being a stronger Hit mind you.) We can conclude that atleast a 10x increase was attained here.

Base Goku post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000

Goku briefly trains with Whis before the tournament of power starts. This was brief and not extremely intense so I believe it is fair to say that he got stronger but not to a significant extent. I estimate it to be about a 10% boost.

ToP Base Goku: 12,100

Making Goku over 12,000x stronger than his Buu arc SSJ3 self. This may seem by a lot but it is standard practice for this series. the difference between Buu arc and ToP arc Goku is astronomical but so is the difference between Goku in the Piccolo Jr arc compared to the Goku in the Buu Arc.[/spoiler]

Base Goku should now be far stronger than anything SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan were capable of in the Buu saga. Meaning, even if SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) had turned SSJ3 and teamed up with Buuhan, current Base Goku would wreck them with minimal effort.

Buuhan would go down instantly while a few attacks from a semi-serious Base Goku is likely enough to bring SSJ3 Vegetto to his knees. Final Form Frieza should be able wreck SSJ3 Vegetto and Buuhan just as easily, given how he's presumably on par with Base Goku. The Buu saga is basically a joke at this point as far as power goes.

If you're referring to manga Vegetto then probably. Anime Vegetto is another story. Even just in base form, Vegetto was beating Boohan. Multiply that strength by 400x for SSJ3, and you get a guy with a power level of several trillions. I don't think Base Goku & Vegeta are quite that high yet, but they are getting there.

No even against the anime Vegetto who was portrayed to be dramatically stronger than his manga counterpart. Either way, SSG was implied to be much stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto and by now Goku and Vegeta's base should be getting close to that level by now.

[supercat]

Base Goku should now be far stronger than anything SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan were capable of in the Buu saga. Meaning, even if SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) had turned SSJ3 and teamed up with Buuhan, current Base Goku would wreck them with minimal effort.

Buuhan would go down instantly while a few attacks from a semi-serious Base Goku is likely enough to bring SSJ3 Vegetto to his knees. Final Form Frieza should be able wreck SSJ3 Vegetto and Buuhan just as easily, given how he's presumably on par with Base Goku. The Buu saga is basically a joke at this point as far as power goes.

If you're referring to manga Vegetto then probably. Anime Vegetto is another story. Even just in base form, Vegetto was beating Boohan. Multiply that strength by 400x for SSJ3, and you get a guy with a power level of several trillions. I don't think Base Goku & Vegeta are quite that high yet, but they are getting there.

Goku immediately dismissing fusion strongly implies that any by-product of fusion (SSJ3 Vegetto included) would likely have been futile. Goku seems determined enough to at the very least try if he felt the gap were reasonable enough; but the fact that he flat-out dismissed fusion strongly implies that SSJ3 Vegetto have been a mere waste of time against a Beerus who was apparently using a mere fraction of the power he was using on the ship. So all of this basically implies a huge gap between Ritual Form Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga); this is further supported by how the SSJ3 Goku that had lost to Beerus was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Meaning, the Vegetto that would have emerged during that time would far eclipse any form of Vegetto from the Buu saga.

After Goku had absorbed the ritual powers, his base form was able to take on a Monaka-Beerus who was using far more power than he did against SSJ3 Goku back on King Kai's planet. Both of them appeared to have a had a great fight; going back to my earlier point on Goku's determination, he would likely have gone with fusion if he felt even a tad that he (as Vegetto) and Beerus could tangle with one another the way he and Monaka-Beerus went at it. The challenge and thrill of that would likely have excited Goku enough give it a try.

Base Goku / Base Vegeta (ToP) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (final battle against Zamasu) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (immediately after absorbing ritual powers) > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

[ZeroNeonix]

How much he could improve in 48 minutes?

Base DBS Goku is probably around his SSJ3 self from Buu saga now.
His SSJ still struggled with Ultimate Gohan.

Don't forget that EoZ still happens after Super and base Goku was having a little trouble with angry Uub.
Goku obviously didn't get much stronger between DBS and EoZ cause he didn't see Vegeta for those years so he most likely didn't train with Beerus or anything like that. We saw him training at his home with Goten.

Goku is a Saiyan. He gets stronger every time he's pushed to his absolute limits, and that happened several times in the arc. As for EoZ and Uub, I don't think Goku was struggling against Uub at all. He wasn't taking the battle seriously, but he wanted to test the strength of the reincarnated Majin Buu. Also, battle power is really inconsistent in Dragon Ball anyway, so trying to figure out exact measurements or comparing characters won't really lead to anything meaningful. Toriyama doesn't keep track of power levels or anything like that. Strength is dependent on what would make an interesting story. That's why Android 17 was somehow able to get as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. It was just convenient for the plot. Heck, even Gohan managed to get beefed up in the few hours he had to prepare for the tournament.

[theherodjl]

No even against the anime Vegetto who was portrayed to be dramatically stronger than his manga counterpart. Either way, SSG was implied to be much stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto and by now Goku and Vegeta's base should be getting close to that level by now.

Well SSJG would quite obviously be stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto, and Goku's base would also improve a significant amount as a secondary effect. However, I don't think that quite translates to Goku's base being stronger than Vegetto's SSJ forms. Goku's best feat of strength, in base so far, is being superior to SSJ3 Gotenks. Base Vegetto was easily a triplefold of SSJ3's Gotenks' strength to have such an advantage over Boohan. I think you could say that Goku was about on par with Vegetto during the Copy arc; meaning that Base Goku would need to increase by hundreds of times between the Black-arc & just after the ToP.
I don't doubt that Base Goku can become that strong, but i don't think that he's there just yet.

[theherodjl]

Goku immediately dismissing fusion strongly implies that any by-product of fusion (SSJ3 Vegetto included) would likely have been futile. Goku seems determined enough to at the very least try if he felt the gap were reasonable enough; but the fact that he flat-out dismissed fusion strongly implies that SSJ3 Vegetto have been a mere waste of time against a Beerus who was apparently using a mere fraction of the power he was using on the ship. So all of this basically implies a huge gap between Ritual Form Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga); this is further supported by how the SSJ3 Goku that had lost to Beerus was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Meaning, the Vegetto that would have emerged during that time would far eclipse any form of Vegetto from the Buu saga.

After Goku had absorbed the ritual powers, his base form was able to take on a Monaka-Beerus who was using far more power than he did against SSJ3 Goku back on King Kai's planet. Both of them appeared to have a had a great fight; going back to my earlier point on Goku's determination, he would likely have gone with fusion if he felt even a tad that he (as Vegetto) and Beerus could tangle with one another the way he and Monaka-Beerus went at it. The challenge and thrill of that would likely have excited Goku enough give it a try.

Base Goku / Base Vegeta (ToP) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (final battle against Zamasu) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (immediately after absorbing ritual powers) > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

No offense, but this is kinda flawed logic. Just because Goku dismissed fusion against Beerus does not mean that every degree of his power after the ritual, from base upwards, would instantly surpass Vegetto's SSJ power. Beerus barely put out anything at all against Goku in their first encounter; beating him with a flick & a chop. Base Vegetto could do the same thing to Boo-arc SSJ3 Goku(if you consider the outcome of Goku thinking that Kami-sama was Piccolo Daimao's at first, and charged him only to be flicked away) with just a little more effort than Beerus put forth. Monaka-Beerus could have only been using 10 times more effort than what he beat SSJ3 Goku with. That fight doesn't really point to Base Goku being stronger than SSJ Vegetto at all.

[supercat]

Goku immediately dismissing fusion strongly implies that any by-product of fusion (SSJ3 Vegetto included) would likely have been futile. Goku seems determined enough to at the very least try if he felt the gap were reasonable enough; but the fact that he flat-out dismissed fusion strongly implies that SSJ3 Vegetto have been a mere waste of time against a Beerus who was apparently using a mere fraction of the power he was using on the ship. So all of this basically implies a huge gap between Ritual Form Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga); this is further supported by how the SSJ3 Goku that had lost to Beerus was implied to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks. Meaning, the Vegetto that would have emerged during that time would far eclipse any form of Vegetto from the Buu saga.

After Goku had absorbed the ritual powers, his base form was able to take on a Monaka-Beerus who was using far more power than he did against SSJ3 Goku back on King Kai's planet. Both of them appeared to have a had a great fight; going back to my earlier point on Goku's determination, he would likely have gone with fusion if he felt even a tad that he (as Vegetto) and Beerus could tangle with one another the way he and Monaka-Beerus went at it. The challenge and thrill of that would likely have excited Goku enough give it a try.

Base Goku / Base Vegeta (ToP) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (final battle against Zamasu) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > Base Goku (immediately after absorbing ritual powers) > / = SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

No offense, but this is kinda flawed logic. Just because Goku dismissed fusion against Beerus does not mean that every degree of his power after the ritual, from base upwards, would instantly surpass Vegetto's SSJ power. Beerus barely put out anything at all against Goku in their first encounter; beating him with a flick & a chop. Base Vegetto could do the same thing to Boo-arc SSJ3 Goku(if you consider the outcome of Goku thinking that Kami-sama was Piccolo Daimao's at first, and charged him only to be flicked away) with just a little more effort than Beerus put forth. Monaka-Beerus could have only been using 10 times more effort than what he beat SSJ3 Goku with. That fight doesn't really point to Base Goku being stronger than SSJ Vegetto at all.

You just supported my argument by pointing out how easily Beerus wrecked Goku. All it took was a glimpse of Beerus' power for Goku to deem fusion useless. We don't know where Base Vegetto stands in terms of power, nor do we have an exact comparison between him, Buuhan, and SSJ3 Goku. A direct comparison between the three is never specified. All we have is Base Vegetto > / = Buuhan > SSJ3 Goku. Plus, going off of the anime, SSJ3 Goku gave Buutenks a decent fight.

The Monaka-Beerus fight does indeed point towards Base Goku surpassing anything from the Buu saga. Beerus was actually excited to the extent of which he was flaring his aura while seemingly enjoying the battle. Quite the opposite of what he did back on King Kai's. Either way, the SSJ3 Goku that lost to Beerus was likely already stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks; meaning, he should already be closing in on Buutenks and Buuhan if not already above them. Buuhan and Buutenks weren't immensely stronger than Ultimate Gohan, so if SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) surpassed Ultimate Gohan, there's a good chance he was at the least comparable to Buuhan and Buutenks. What I'm trying to get at is, the fusion that Goku had in mind after getting wrecked by Beerus would have likely resulted in a Vegetto that is far stronger than his previous Buu saga incarnation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, placing Goku and fighters of a similar power-level (not skill level, only pure power, the two ARE different and should be accounted for separately) AT Vegito's level in similar forms in the original manga always seemed like the best course of action; thus, SSG's relation to Goku's non-god forms would be the same relationship it would've had to Vegito.

[theherodjl]

You just supported my argument by pointing out how easily Beerus wrecked Goku. All it took was a glimpse of Beerus' power for Goku to deem fusion useless. We don't know where Base Vegetto stands in terms of power, nor do we have an exact comparison between him, Buuhan, and SSJ3 Goku. A direct comparison between the three is never specified. All we have is Base Vegetto > / = Buuhan > SSJ3 Goku. Plus, going off of the anime, SSJ3 Goku gave Buutenks a decent fight.

The Monaka-Beerus fight does indeed point towards Base Goku surpassing anything from the Buu saga. Beerus was actually excited to the extent of which he was flaring his aura while seemingly enjoying the battle. Quite the opposite of what he did back on King Kai's. Either way, the SSJ3 Goku that lost to Beerus was likely already stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks; meaning, he should already be closing in on Buutenks and Buuhan if not already above them. Buuhan and Buutenks weren't immensely stronger than Ultimate Gohan, so if SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) surpassed Ultimate Gohan, there's a good chance he was at the least comparable to Buuhan and Buutenks. What I'm trying to get at is, the fusion that Goku had in mind after getting wrecked by Beerus would have likely resulted in a Vegetto that is far stronger than his previous Buu saga incarnation.

And Beerus wrecking SSJ3 Goku does what to prove that Base Goku, after the ritual, would undisputedly be stronger than SSJ Vegetto? He was deeming the overall power of fusion as useless, and that something stronger would be needed. Hence SSJG, and not the power up it could give his existing forms. We also actually do know where Vegetto, Boohan, and Goku all stand. SSJ3 Goku was already weaker than less than half of Boohan's own strength(going by SSJ3 Goku not being strong enough to take on ordinary Super Boo who doubled in strength as Bootenks, and more so as Boohan), and Boohan could not even get a single hit in on Base Vegetto; the difference can be the same for Base Vegetto & Boohan as it was for Boohan & SSJ3 Goku. Bootenks wasn't receiving as decent fight from Goku either; Goku dodged one hit from Bootenks, and managed to send him back with a Ki blast which dealt no damage. Bootenks had control of the entire fight, and briefly stopped from striking Goku just to make Gohan's search for the Potara more difficult.
How does Beerus being excited to fight determine the outcome you are suggesting? He's just excited: not using any amount of power that is in the hundreds-fold of what he used against SSJ3 Goku. Beerus can use his Ki so well that he can hold back a huge amount, but still appear to be fighting with some effort. Its implied in the ToP that Goku has now just reached Beerus' level with Ultra Instinct; a level that makes SSJG Goku from the BOG arc look incredibly weak. Especially since Goku was significantly stronger than his current SSJG power since that time, and then increased it more with SSJB + Kaio-ken x 20. The Point being that Beerus doesn't have to be using a staggering amount more than what he showed on Kaio's planet.
And why would SSJ3 Goku from the BoG arc be much stronger than in the Boo arc? He's been a farmer for months, and would only train in his free time which wasn't too often as he was busy with his work. He could increase a little bit from that, but wouldn't assuredly close the gap even with just SSJ3 Gotenks.
This doesn't objectively point to Base Goku(post ritual) > SSJ Vegetto. The true powerup was from SSJG, not what any power bonus could do for Goku's base or SSJ forms.

[supercat]

You just supported my argument by pointing out how easily Beerus wrecked Goku. All it took was a glimpse of Beerus' power for Goku to deem fusion useless. We don't know where Base Vegetto stands in terms of power, nor do we have an exact comparison between him, Buuhan, and SSJ3 Goku. A direct comparison between the three is never specified. All we have is Base Vegetto > / = Buuhan > SSJ3 Goku. Plus, going off of the anime, SSJ3 Goku gave Buutenks a decent fight.

The Monaka-Beerus fight does indeed point towards Base Goku surpassing anything from the Buu saga. Beerus was actually excited to the extent of which he was flaring his aura while seemingly enjoying the battle. Quite the opposite of what he did back on King Kai's. Either way, the SSJ3 Goku that lost to Beerus was likely already stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks; meaning, he should already be closing in on Buutenks and Buuhan if not already above them. Buuhan and Buutenks weren't immensely stronger than Ultimate Gohan, so if SSJ3 Goku (vs Beerus) surpassed Ultimate Gohan, there's a good chance he was at the least comparable to Buuhan and Buutenks. What I'm trying to get at is, the fusion that Goku had in mind after getting wrecked by Beerus would have likely resulted in a Vegetto that is far stronger than his previous Buu saga incarnation.

And Beerus wrecking SSJ3 Goku does what to prove that Base Goku, after the ritual, would undisputedly be stronger than SSJ Vegetto? He was deeming the overall power of fusion as useless, and that something stronger would be needed. Hence SSJG, and not the power up it could give his existing forms. We also actually do know where Vegetto, Boohan, and Goku all stand. SSJ3 Goku was already weaker than less than half of Boohan's own strength(going by SSJ3 Goku not being strong enough to take on ordinary Super Boo who doubled in strength as Bootenks, and more so as Boohan), and Boohan could not even get a single hit in on Base Vegetto; the difference can be the same for Base Vegetto & Boohan as it was for Boohan & SSJ3 Goku. Bootenks wasn't receiving as decent fight from Goku either; Goku dodged one hit from Bootenks, and managed to send him back with a Ki blast which dealt no damage. Bootenks had control of the entire fight, and briefly stopped from striking Goku just to make Gohan's search for the Potara more difficult.
How does Beerus being excited to fight determine the outcome you are suggesting? He's just excited: not using any amount of power that is in the hundreds-fold of what he used against SSJ3 Goku. Beerus can use his Ki so well that he can hold back a huge amount, but still appear to be fighting with some effort. Its implied in the ToP that Goku has now just reached Beerus' level with Ultra Instinct; a level that makes SSJG Goku from the BOG arc look incredibly weak. Especially since Goku was significantly stronger than his current SSJG power since that time, and then increased it more with SSJB + Kaio-ken x 20. The Point being that Beerus doesn't have to be using a staggering amount more than what he showed on Kaio's planet.
And why would SSJ3 Goku from the BoG arc be much stronger than in the Boo arc? He's been a farmer for months, and would only train in his free time which wasn't too often as he was busy with his work. He could increase a little bit from that, but wouldn't assuredly close the gap even with just SSJ3 Gotenks.
This doesn't objectively point to Base Goku(post ritual) > SSJ Vegetto. The true powerup was from SSJG, not what any power bonus could do for Goku's base or SSJ forms.

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

[theherodjl]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

There isn't any other way to interpret a fight that Bootenks was clearly holding back in. He was pretty much fighting Goku just for the lulz, and make them think they had a chance at beating him. Dodging one hit, and only getting in one hit(that didn't even deal any residual damage such as burns or scrapes) in on a suppressed Boo isn't in doing any better than Gohan did. Goku's fight with Pure Boo on the other hand did present damage, and lots of it. Its just that Pure Boo had a less restrained regeneration factor because he wasn't holding it back except to mock Goku & Vegeta on one instance.
Boohan was going all out. When simple hand-to-hand combat didn't work, he tried using a large Ki blast which Base Vegetto kicked back with only a little effort. Boohan acknowledged that Vegetto was stronger, but figured that his array of tricks & abilities would keep the fight going.
Because Beerus was still massively holding back, and just having fun? Post-ritual Base Goku stands no chance against even 1% Beerus; there's plenty of room for Beerus to hold massively back & not surpass SSJ Vegetto in power.
Also, what indication was there that Gotenks & Gohan were inferior to SSJ3 Goku? Its only a year after the Boo arc ended, and Goku hasn't been training in any gravity room or with anyone else. He wasn't making any noticeable gains which is why he decided to go to Kaio's planet to train in the first place. Another scene in DBS showed at Goku had become rusty from just being a farmer, and even got a bruise from deflecting a bullet. Goku could only get marginally stronger from being a farmer at best. That's not enough to close the gap with Gotenks or Gohan.

[supercat]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

There isn't any other way to interpret a fight that Bootenks was clearly holding back in. He was pretty much fighting Goku just for the lulz, and make them think they had a chance at beating him. Dodging one hit, and only getting in one hit(that didn't even deal any residual damage such as burns or scrapes) in on a suppressed Boo isn't in doing any better than Gohan did. Goku's fight with Pure Boo on the other hand did present damage, and lots of it. Its just that Pure Boo had a less restrained regeneration factor because he wasn't holding it back except to mock Goku & Vegeta on one instance.
Boohan was going all out. When simple hand-to-hand combat didn't work, he tried using a large Ki blast which Base Vegetto kicked back with only a little effort. Boohan acknowledged that Vegetto was stronger, but figured that his array of tricks & abilities would keep the fight going.
Because Beerus was still massively holding back, and just having fun? Post-ritual Base Goku stands no chance against even 1% Beerus; there's plenty of room for Beerus to hold massively back & not surpass SSJ Vegetto in power.
Also, what indication was there that Gotenks & Gohan were inferior to SSJ3 Goku? Its only a year after the Boo arc ended, and Goku hasn't been training in any gravity room or with anyone else. He wasn't making any noticeable gains which is why he decided to go to Kaio's planet to train in the first place. Another scene in DBS showed at Goku had become rusty from just being a farmer, and even got a bruise from deflecting a bullet. Goku could only get marginally stronger from being a farmer at best. That's not enough to close the gap with Gotenks or Gohan.

We don't know if Buutenks was even holding back against SSJ3 Goku. There was no such implication that this was the case. Plus, Goku wasn't even that damaged after their brief scuffle. Buutenks probably regenerated before reemerging against Goku. I also don't recall SSJ3 Goku inflicting any notable damage on Kid Buu. Kid Buu is so much more reckless than Buutenks; which is basically why he kept charging in and getting blasted. Regardless, each time he regenerated, he reappeared unscathed; again, the whole regenerating and reappearing unscathed is something Buutenks could have done.

Buuhan and Base Vegetto weren't miles apart from one another; if they were, why would Vegetto, who is arguably cockier than Vegeta bother transforming? He would have proceeded to pick him apart in base.

Okay, so why would Beerus have fun with Goku unless the latter was far stronger than he was back on King Kai's? Again, the point of that battle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. If a suppressed Beerus could have merely finger flicked him away, he would have done so for a few reasons; one, this would reduce the chances of Goku finding out who he really is, and two, it better conveys the point that Monaka truly is a beast. As for Gotenks and Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku, enraged Vegeta was the only person that was noted to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku. If the same applied to Gotenks and Gohan, it would have been implied at the very least, but it wasn't. The whole, so-and-so can't be this strong because they never went through such-and-such argument only goes so far when there are feats and statements directly countering it. What doesn't make sense has very little to do with how much a particular character progresses. Point is, Vegeta was the only one that was stated be stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan going down as easily as he did is likely to show that Goku and Vegeta were the two top contenders. Some may find it odd that Base Goku got thousands of times stronger throughout the events of Super, but I honestly feel it's more or less no different than Base Goku going from weaker than King Piccolo to almost as strong as Frieza.

[HeroR]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

I just want to add that Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku almost based entirely on Goku saying that Super Buu is stronger than him when after he pulled Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan free. The problem with that is, Goku is extremely unreliable in the Buu Saga. This is the same person who said he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he couldn't possibly beat Buu, only to turn around and go Super Saiyan 3. Then when directly asked by Piccolo if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said no. Yet, before fighting Kid Buu he joked about being able to beat Fat Buu and didn't to give the next generation a chance. So the Goku who said 'I can't beat Super Buu' is the same Goku who said 'I can't beat Fat Buu', who then revealed to be a liar.

[supercat]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

I just want to add that Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku almost based entirely on Goku saying that Super Buu is stronger than him when after he pulled Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan free. The problem with that is, Goku is extremely unreliable in the Buu Saga. This is the same person who said he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he couldn't possibly beat Buu, only to turn around and go Super Saiyan 3. Then when directly asked by Piccolo if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said no. Yet, before fighting Kid Buu he joked about being able to beat Fat Buu and didn't to give the next generation a chance. So the Goku who said 'I can't beat Super Buu' is the same Goku who said 'I can't beat Fat Buu', who then revealed to be a liar.

Agreed. One statement from Goku (who basically had conflicting remarks throughout the entire saga) isn't enough to trump the numerous other statements and feats that strongly point towards Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Super Buu. Plus, both Vegeta and Goku were able to make quick work of Super Buu, whereas they had one heck of a time against Kid Buu.

[PFM18]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

I just want to add that Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku almost based entirely on Goku saying that Super Buu is stronger than him when after he pulled Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan free. The problem with that is, Goku is extremely unreliable in the Buu Saga. This is the same person who said he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he couldn't possibly beat Buu, only to turn around and go Super Saiyan 3. Then when directly asked by Piccolo if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said no. Yet, before fighting Kid Buu he joked about being able to beat Fat Buu and didn't to give the next generation a chance. So the Goku who said 'I can't beat Super Buu' is the same Goku who said 'I can't beat Fat Buu', who then revealed to be a liar.

Goku didn't even say that he was stronger than Super Buu when Gotenks defused. He just said that they could beat him. In his mind him and Gohan(who is much stronger than him) would be able to take Super Buu.

[HeroR]

The manga and anime seem to have different power scales; so while the manga may have implied Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku, the anime contradicts this by SSJ3 Goku's performance against Buutenks. You can perceive it however way you want, but the gist that I got was that SSJ3 Goku was at the least able to keep up with Buutenks. One could argue that Ultimate Gohan didn't do any better against Buutenks, since he too didn't appear to have inflicted any notable damage. Either way, lack of damage isn't really a good way to evaluate this since Buu is basically invulnerable to attacks from opponents weaker than him. Heck, Kid Buu was relatively close to SSJ3 Goku in terms of power, yet there wasn't any sign of damage.

I also felt that Base Vegetto wasn't too far ahead of Buuhan, if at all even ahead. Buuhan didn't appear to be going all out initially; Vegetto transforming also supports this.

Beerus was excited by how he didn't have to resort to mere chops and and finger flicks this time around. Plus, why would he merely appear to be using more power than he actually was? What would be the point of such theatrics? The objective of that brief scuffle was for Beerus to show Goku how powerful Monaka was. Wouldn't he better get his point across if he (as Monaka) won as easily as he did back on King Kai's? As for SSJ3 Goku powering up, it was implied that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Gohan and Gotenks go down as easily as they did against Beerus shows the two were likely inferior to Goku as far as strength goes. Also, there was no indication of any form that Gohan or Gotenks had grown weaker at the time; so a logical explanation is that Goku simply surpassed them. Another thing that supports this is that the only person stated to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku was enraged Vegeta. If Ultimate Gohan were truly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Beerus would likely have indicated so in some shape or form.

I just want to add that Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku almost based entirely on Goku saying that Super Buu is stronger than him when after he pulled Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Gohan free. The problem with that is, Goku is extremely unreliable in the Buu Saga. This is the same person who said he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and he couldn't possibly beat Buu, only to turn around and go Super Saiyan 3. Then when directly asked by Piccolo if he could have beating Buu if he went all out, Goku said no. Yet, before fighting Kid Buu he joked about being able to beat Fat Buu and didn't to give the next generation a chance. So the Goku who said 'I can't beat Super Buu' is the same Goku who said 'I can't beat Fat Buu', who then revealed to be a liar.

Goku didn't even say that he was stronger than Super Buu when Gotenks defused. He just said that they could beat him. In his mind him and Gohan(who is much stronger than him) would be able to take Super Buu.

After Goku and Vegeta freed everyone within Buu, Goku said that Super Buu even depowered could smash Vegeta and him like bugs. So did more or less said he couldn't be Super Buu, but he said the same thing about Fat Buu.