So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by HeroR » Mon May 07, 2018 4:23 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: Okay then........ so why does that equate to a power increase?

Performance, whilst it can be indicative of power, isn't SOLELY indicative of power. Not only does the narrative never even hint towards this possibility, but in fact it actively goes against it by explicitly stating how our heroes are managing; examples include Vegeta catching onto Jiren's movement patterns, or Goku borrowing strategy from Krillin to adapt for himself.

We even see that when Jiren decides to stop messing around with testing his foes' might, like when Goku got on his case for insulting Toppo's performance after he had been defeated by Vegeta, he can still almost instantly destroy SSB Goku.
Because getting stronger in Dragon Ball usually means a power increase. It wasn't just Goku's performance since we saw that Goku even with Kaioken x20 got glared down by a suppressed Jiren. Yet, in 122 and 123, Goku stood up to a Jiren using more of his power. This can't be done with strategy since Jiren powering up happened after Goku tricked him.

As for the roundhouse kick, Goku wasn't even on guard and he was tired from fighting for Jiren for several minutes.
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by PFM18 » Mon May 07, 2018 11:40 pm

p-hyvo wrote:In my opinioni, base goku (early top)is around 3 times stronger than buuhan in his nase
How do you come to this figure exactly?

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue May 08, 2018 1:02 am

PFM18 wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:In my opinioni, base goku (early top)is around 3 times stronger than buuhan in his nase
How do you come to this figure exactly?
Isn't base Goku even above his SsjG BoG counterpart with utmost ease?
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by ToshioWrites » Tue May 08, 2018 1:09 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:In my opinioni, base goku (early top)is around 3 times stronger than buuhan in his nase
How do you come to this figure exactly?
Isn't base Goku even above his SsjG BoG counterpart with utmost ease?
Many Many Times over.

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Tue May 08, 2018 2:23 am

ToshioWrites wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
How do you come to this figure exactly?
Isn't base Goku even above his SsjG BoG counterpart with utmost ease?
Many Many Times over.
Yeah, agreed. Basically everything except one or two things in all the DBS Anime proves that Base Goku > SsjG BoG Goku. There's still, apparently, many people who disagree, for some...... reason
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue May 08, 2018 1:09 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: Yeah, agreed. Basically everything except one or two things in all the DBS Anime proves that Base Goku > SsjG BoG Goku. There's still, apparently, many people who disagree, for some...... reason
The confusion started with the fact that the anime and BoG movie both stated that Goku absorbed the power of SSG into his base. He fought Beerus in space using SSJ and Beerus said that he didn't seem to lose any power. We all thought hence his base was as strong as SSG. In filler episodes of the anime, base Goku was able to fight Beerus in a Monaka costume when previously SSJ3 Goku couldn't even make Beerus move. Goku didn't even use SSG in the "anime" vs Hit. So we assumed that we would never see SSG again since Goku absorbed it into his base seemingly.

Things were pretty consistent UNTIL the ToP where Goku suddenly used SSG against Dyspo out of nowhere with no explanation of why he didn't use the form before. Then all consistency went out of the window. The manga never had the scene where SSJ Goku fought Beerus nor any statements implying he absorbed the power of SSG. Goku also used SSG vs Hit, stating it conserves stamina rather than going full SSB from the start. Vegeta even used the strategy of switching back and forth between SSG and SSB against Black so that he could use the full power of SSB in short bursts without losing power.

So essentially, the anime did not use SSG for two arcs - the U6 tournament and the Zamasu arc, but randomly showed it against Dyspo at the ToP. Then, it was pretty prevalent that SSG is a form of its own with a considerable boost. In the anime, Goku hit Jiren in his base which did nothing and Jiren stood still. When hitting Jiren using SSG, Jiren started to block punches. Hence, there is a clear distinction between SSG and base now even in the anime.

The point at which the anime and manga diverged was the U6 tournament. I do think that Toei decided to add SSG back in the anime later after Toyotaro's manga and Toriyama's scripts for the ToP that must have included SSG. My conclusion is that the anime and BoG were retconned. The idea of Goku's base being as strong as SSG no longer holds true. The manga has been consistent to this fact while the anime has rectified itself. Based on this consistency, I'd rather use the manga's logic to scale. Additionally, we learned that SSG > 10% SSB in the manga, so we already know that from this statement, SSB = 10x SSG not 50x.

As for how strong Goku is post-ToP compared to pre-ToP, I think his base strength didn't change much. Zenkai boosts have already reached a saturation point. We can assume that the ToP acted like a 48 minute training session. What Goku accomplished in the ToP is obviously UI which he cannot consciously access. So minus UI, Goku's base strength is not that different from pre-ToP.
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Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
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Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue May 08, 2018 6:33 pm

People invented the 'two base theory' because of the inconsistency in the anime portraying it. Sometimes Goku in base was god tier level and sometimes he wasn't...
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue May 08, 2018 6:39 pm

Yea there's no two base theory. There's one base and just inconsistency because the Toei writers made a mistake. Initially, there was no SSG but now there is.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by Cetra » Tue May 08, 2018 8:51 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Yea there's no two base theory. There's one base and just inconsistency because the Toei writers made a mistake. Initially, there was no SSG but now there is.
Of course there was a SSJG otherwise Goku would not have transformed back into it for a brief second to counter Beerus' attack. There is a difference between using parts or almost all of its power or I don't care how much actually in other forms and no longer being able to use it again. And he used it again. Even if just for a moment.
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 08, 2018 9:40 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Yea there's no two base theory. There's one base and just inconsistency because the Toei writers made a mistake. Initially, there was no SSG but now there is.
I don't think it was just Toei's fault, RoF had Goku in base dealing with Final Form Freeza like it was no thang. The anime of course contributed to it, but Toriyama in the second movie made base Goku strong as fuck and treated SSG like it no longer existed, not even one dialogue referring to it.

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by ToshioWrites » Tue May 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:Yea there's no two base theory. There's one base and just inconsistency because the Toei writers made a mistake. Initially, there was no SSG but now there is.
I don't think it was just Toei's fault, RoF had Goku in base dealing with Final Form Freeza like it was no thang. The anime of course contributed to it, but Toriyama in the second movie made base Goku strong as fuck and treated SSG like it no longer existed, not even one dialogue referring to it.
I think there was a communication issue cause this v-jump snippet would make me think in the movie , Goku only had 2 forms base and ssb

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue May 08, 2018 11:04 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Yea there's no two base theory. There's one base and just inconsistency because the Toei writers made a mistake. Initially, there was no SSG but now there is.
There most certainly is a two base theory, because fans have come up with it. Whether it's true in-universe is another matter entirely.
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri May 11, 2018 12:56 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Nowhere was it stated that Goku lost his SsjG Form and the Two base theory in general is all irrelevant since it's an atrocious fan theory invented to deny characters getting to God Tier reaches.

Goku can't lose his SsjG because his SsjB is SsjG + Ssj, but he uses SsjB because of its high benefits. Of course the anime contradicted the stability of SsjB and copied what the Manga did

In conclusion, do you believe Goku Current Base > SsjG Goku BoG?
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri May 11, 2018 1:06 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote: In conclusion, do you believe Goku Current Base > SsjG Goku BoG?
No, I do not believe that Goku base (Post-ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG). The tremendous gain in power from SSG eclipsed any previous form Goku ever had. In the ToP, base Goku was getting beaten by several characters. He did use SSG to be able to fight against Kale and Caulifla together which makes sense to me since both Kale and Caulifla, don't have god ki. If his base was already at SSG tier, then that would make absolutely no sense.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: There most certainly is a two base theory, because fans have come up with it. Whether it's true in-universe is another matter entirely.
Yes, you're right, semantics. Fans are free to theorize and come up with the "two-base" theory but truth is that it just doesn't make sense. What makes sense is that there is one base and that base is much weaker than SSG. All other instances where Goku in base was shown to be fighting Beerus or whatever in the anime like when Beerus was in Monaka's costume, I consider a filler or a mistake by Toei.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Fri May 11, 2018 2:04 pm

shadowfox87 wrote: No, I do not believe that Goku base (Post-ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG). The tremendous gain in power from SSG eclipsed any previous form Goku ever had. In the ToP, base Goku was getting beaten by several characters. He did use SSG to be able to fight against Kale and Caulifla together which makes sense to me since both Kale and Caulifla, don't have god ki. If his base was already at SSG tier, then that would make absolutely no sense.
Except non of your claims are even supported and only rely on utter speculations and disbelief rather than factual material from the show.

I made an entire case of it, proving the point objectively, if anything else:

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13104
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat May 12, 2018 2:13 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote: No, I do not believe that Goku base (Post-ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG). The tremendous gain in power from SSG eclipsed any previous form Goku ever had. In the ToP, base Goku was getting beaten by several characters. He did use SSG to be able to fight against Kale and Caulifla together which makes sense to me since both Kale and Caulifla, don't have god ki. If his base was already at SSG tier, then that would make absolutely no sense.
Except non of your claims are even supported and only rely on utter speculations and disbelief rather than factual material from the show.

I made an entire case of it, proving the point objectively, if anything else:

http://www.dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13104
Actually, all of my claims are supported. The manga is my factual information. The anime already lost consistency when SSG was introduced. All your "facts" came from the anime which itself is inconsistent. I already addressed all your points above including the Goku vs Beerus scene.

1. The scene where Goku reverts to SSJ in BoG and anime never happens in the manga. It's inconsistent with subsequent events and implies that SSJ Goku can fight on par with Beerus without losing any power from when he was fighting in SSG. This scene never occurs in the manga. The fight ends immediately after SSG is dropped.
2. Goku vs Beerus in Monaka costume is a filler. For Goku in base to even hurt Beerus is laughable. This would've made sense if Goku actually absorbed the power of SSG into his base.
3. Goku vs Hit in the anime was done completely wrong. The "improvement" ability that Hit used to increase his Time Skip was never shown ever again. In the manga, Hit's Time Skip always remained at 0.1 s. His Time Skip only works on those that are equal in power or below. The reason it worked on SSB Vegeta is because Vegeta drained his stamina by transforming into SSB against Cabba beforehand, which made him have only 10% of SSB's power. In this fight, it is Goku that used SSG and predicted Hit's movements because he could see the twitches of Hit's hands. This is the actual reason why Hit keeps his hands in his pockets. We didn't even know about this until the Tournament of Power in the anime when Hit fought Dyspo! Base Goku hence never actually kept up with Hit's speed but rather knew when Hit was about to use Time Skip because of the twitches of his hands and then anticipated 0.1 s ahead.
4. Base Black in the manga fought Vegeta in SSJ and Vegeta beat him initially before zenkai. In the anime, base Black was fighting Goku SSJ2 when their bodies are the same. It was shown that the secret behind Black's strength was that he was getting zenkai boosts from getting healed by future Zamasu. Each time, getting healed, his own cells fused with Goku's body, eventually using his own god ki and achieving SSR.
5. Last point is that there is no need for SSG at all if its power is already in Goku's base. This reasoning worked in the anime until the Tournament of Power when Goku used SSG. Goku used all his forms against Jiren. Jiren didn't flinch with Goku firing his kamehameha in base. He started to block when Goku went SSG. It makes no sense whatsoever. There's too many inconsistencies in the anime and it is because you only use anime, that you have to reason out two bases to make sense of it.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat May 12, 2018 5:20 am

Uh, if we’re not factoring UI, I’m sure Goku’s gotten stronger with his blue KKx20 after the tournament compared to before it. I just can’t pinpoint how much stronger he’s gotten however.

So I guess what I’m saying is Goku (again, not counting UI) definitely got stronger with KKx20 but he has yet to show anything significant like feasibly beating a Hakaishin unless he gains power like Jiren or some blue nakama boost like Vegeta did.

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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by theherodjl » Sat May 12, 2018 4:56 pm

I'd like to add that the argument of "ToP Base Goku > BOG SSJG Goku" creates an issue: in that all subsequential opponents after the BOG fight are much stronger than initially believed because Goku would have to be making such huge gains whenever he trained up until the ToP. Even worse, it means that Beerus is way, way more powerful than Akira Toriyama intended due to the fact that Goku doesn't even reach Beerus' level until the latter half of the ToP. It makes determining power levels in DBS almost entirely fruitless because all previous rules and limitations of characters and their respective tiers of power no longer exist and that anything goes. Look no further than Android 17 fighting on par with ToP SSJB Goku just prior to the actual tournament. This means that in the span between Cell's defeat and Goku meeting him for the first time, Android 17's power went from below Imperfect Cell to being on par with the height of the ordinary SSJB form. If the theory of "ToP Base Goku > BOG SSJG Goku" is correct then that means Android 17 can become hundreds of times stronger than the initial SSJG form(which is already on a level far greater than anything seen in DBZ) just by training by himself on an island for 10 years. So much for all that hype around "levels above SSJ" or "fusion" when all the Z Senshi needed to do was let Android 17 train for a little while and then take out all their opponents with ease.
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sun May 13, 2018 12:52 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
You ridicule me because I said "facts" but you claim your arguments to be facts? That's one hypocritical dude I got here

All your arguments are nothing but a bunch of conjectures and denial, nothing more.

Anime and Manga don't correlate. Manga wise Goku's base is far weaker than SsjG BoG Goku, anime wise it's all an objective matter

You fail to give a rebuttal yet you claim me to be wrong, yet you're using two different continuities which don't correlate

Manga =/= Anime, let that float through you. I'm arguing Anime, you're arguing something else. Next time, level with me so we could be at the same page
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Re: So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

Post by Koitsukai » Sun May 13, 2018 1:03 pm

To explain the inconsistency of base Goku and that weird two-base theory, maybe Goku absorbing SSG in BoG(I do believe the movie is the real deal, more so than the manga and the anime) was a temporary thing, explaining how he could beat Final Form Freeza, Gotenks, and not get stomped by Hit. It probably is a flawed explanation.

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