So, how powerful is Goku after ToP now?

[shadowfox87]

You ridicule me because I said "facts" but you claim your arguments to be facts? That's one hypocritical dude I got here

All your arguments are nothing but a bunch of conjectures and denial, nothing more.

Anime and Manga don't correlate. Manga wise Goku's base is far weaker than SsjG BoG Goku, anime wise it's all an objective matter

You fail to give a rebuttal yet you claim me to be wrong, yet you're using two different continuities which don't correlate

Manga =/= Anime, let that float through you. I'm arguing Anime, you're arguing something else. Next time, level with me so we could be at the same page

I've argued with without being rude and presented my points which are logical. The manga and anime of course are different. The reason I am using manga is because the anime is inconsistent. This inconsistency is the reason why people think that Goku in his base form is as strong as an SSG. Instead of trying to prove each one of my statements provided in the manga wrong, you rather insult me and just say I'm hypocritical when I've already acknowledged all the "facts" from the anime. I'm not denying that those events occurred in the anime. If you do go by the anime only, you will either come to two possible conclusions - 1. The Toei writers incorporated what was written in the manga later in the ToP, introducing SSG as a separate form, essentially adding inconsistency with previous events. That is, bad writing. 2. Goku has two bases, one that is as strong as an SSG and that the power scaling in the anime is just so that Goku can be as strong as he wants to be and that it doesn't matter.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You ridicule me because I said "facts" but you claim your arguments to be facts? That's one hypocritical dude I got here

All your arguments are nothing but a bunch of conjectures and denial, nothing more.

Anime and Manga don't correlate. Manga wise Goku's base is far weaker than SsjG BoG Goku, anime wise it's all an objective matter

You fail to give a rebuttal yet you claim me to be wrong, yet you're using two different continuities which don't correlate

Manga =/= Anime, let that float through you. I'm arguing Anime, you're arguing something else. Next time, level with me so we could be at the same page

I've argued with without being rude and presented my points which are logical. The manga and anime of course are different. The reason I am using manga is because the anime is inconsistent. This inconsistency is the reason why people think that Goku in his base form is as strong as an SSG. Instead of trying to prove each one of my statements provided in the manga wrong, you rather insult me and just say I'm hypocritical when I've already acknowledged all the "facts" from the anime. I'm not denying that those events occurred in the anime. If you do go by the anime only, you will either come to two possible conclusions - 1. The Toei writers incorporated what was written in the manga later in the ToP, introducing SSG as a separate form, essentially adding inconsistency with previous events. That is, bad writing. 2. Goku has two bases, one that is as strong as an SSG and that the power scaling in the anime is just so that Goku can be as strong as he wants to be and that it doesn't matter.

This guy seems to take this stuff way too seriously and gets personally offended whenever anyone disagrees with him about it.

[ZeroNeonix]

In terms of base power alone, Goku has undoubtedly gotten much stronger. He pushed himself more than ever before during the ToP, and he always grows after challenges like that. As for potential power, Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken will be his most powerful form UNTIL he is pushed. Then he'll get Ultra Instinct back again.

[majinwarman]

In terms of base power alone, Goku has undoubtedly gotten much stronger. He pushed himself more than ever before during the ToP, and he always grows after challenges like that. As for potential power, Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken will be his most powerful form UNTIL he is pushed. Then he'll get Ultra Instinct back again.

That is a good analysis and I agree with it.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

As strong as he was at the beginning of the TOP since he doesn't have access to Ultra Instinct. He's now equal to Vegeta whom he was above before due to the latter having SSBE.

[JazzMazz]

As strong as he was at the beginning of the TOP since he doesn't have access to Ultra Instinct. He's now equal to Vegeta whom he was above before due to the latter having SSBE.

But didn't he grow naturally stronger throughout the TOP by pushing his body past its limits through using his regular transformations like Blue?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The only limit breaking that Goku is ever stated to do is through Ultra Instinct. I have no idea what kind of logic that people here are using. For some reason people think that unless Goku got stronger in base, he didn't get stronger. He is stronger since he unlocked a power stronger than his previous level of strength.

[JazzMazz]

The only limit breaking that Goku is ever stated to do is through Ultra Instinct. I have no idea what kind of logic that people here are using. For some reason people think that unless Goku got stronger in base, he didn't get stronger. He is stronger since he unlocked a power stronger than his previous level of strength.

Yeah, but constantly throughout the tournament, it was shown that he was exerting more power than he was usually capable of doing in forms such as SS2, SSG and even Blue and Kaio-ken, and it was due to him pushing himself so consistently that made it more and more difficult for him to unlock UI each time.

Also, I think his multiple performances against Jiren speak massively of how his grown stronger throughout the tournament, even matching a more powered up Jiren than the one he couldn't fight in 109, in regular Blue in 123.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It wasn't stated anywhere that Goku was exerting more power than he would usually be capable of in his forms. He used his higher forms despite lacking the stamina and he got acclimated to the strain, thus it progressively took more strain to activate UI.

SSB Goku wasn't equal with Jiren. Him and Vegeta together using their highest powers weren't a threat to that same Jiren.

SSB Goku fought "evenly" with Jiren in their first fight while he got instantly smashed into the ground after using Kaioken. It doesn't mean that SSB Goku>SSB Kaioken Goku. This is just a case of extreme overanalysis of nothing. There is nothing in the story hinting at SSB Goku changing in power at all throughout the tournament.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It wasn't stated anywhere that Goku was exerting more power than he would usually be capable of in his forms. He used his higher forms despite lacking the stamina and he got acclimated to the strain, thus it progressively took more strain to activate UI.

SSB Goku wasn't equal with Jiren. Him and Vegeta together using their highest powers weren't a threat to that same Jiren.

SSB Goku fought "evenly" with Jiren in their first fight while he got instantly smashed into the ground after using Kaioken. It doesn't mean that SSB Goku>SSB Kaioken Goku. This is just a case of extreme overanalysis of nothing. There is nothing in the story hinting at SSB Goku changing in power at all throughout the tournament.

Honestly, I think it's another case of people conflating performance with power.

A fight's fluid and shifting; being stronger at one moment doesn't automatically mean you'll do better when you're weaker in the next. For example, an easy way of justifying it for folks who keep wanting power levels to matter more to everything is to say that as Goku uses more power, Jiren stops holding back as much and does better against this higher level of power (i.e. Kaioken) than against Goku's previous level of power (i.e. SSB).

Not that such an explanation is necessary, anyways; Jiren was able to do better against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku because he watched how Goku fought in that form, not simply because he used more power. He was using his martial arts intuition to gain the upperhand. In that same vein, Goku very likely could've done the same beforehand, fighting with Jiren with more experience and intuition on how he fights at his greater levels of power.

[Hugo Boss]

In my personal opinion, I don't really know where Goku (post ToP) stands in terms of power. Like, is he stronger than GoD Beerus? Or is he at the same level (pre-ToP), since he can't use UI anymore? I felt like Goku didn't really achieve any increase in power, since he's unable to use UI. I know that in the future he will be able to fully utilize UI, but for now... is Goku's max power SSB Kaio-Ken x20? Or did he break his limit, if so... how? Let me know your thoughts below!

This question is suited to this thread.

I think he can’t beat Beerus yet, due to the heavy toll Ultra Instinct has. But after mastering the form he might have a chance.

[shadowmaria]

This strong;

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And after that, he becomes this strong;

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Even without being able to access UI from will, I think some people are neglecting the fact Goku has already broke the shell and as we saw in the ToP when pushed to his limits Goku went UI a further 2 times and of course now he has mastered UI so once he gets pushed to his limits again in the future no doubt mastered UI will activate.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I've argued with without being rude and presented my points which are logical.

Neither was I rude. There's a difference between being rude and being blunt. And my point towards your issue wasn't about your points and whether they are logical in your eyes (which is irrelevant since facts from the show > Feelings of fans) or not.

The manga and anime of course are different. The reason I am using manga is because the anime is inconsistent

Manga Pretty much has its share of inconsistencies but I do agree it's far less than an anime, but that doesn't mean you use Manga to justify a case from the Anime. As you said, Manga and Anime are different, so comparing them with each other would be abysmal

[This inconsistency is the reason why people think that Goku in his base form is as strong as an SSG

You don't seem to even know what inconsistency mean. Just because The Anime disagrees with the Manga doesn't mean it's an inconsistency. It's quite objectively evident in the Anime at least that Base Goku surpassed BoG SsjG Goku, but in the Manga this is wrong. Your argument would only apply to the Manga and NOT to the Anime.

Instead of trying to prove each one of my statements provided in the manga wrong, you rather insult me and just say I'm hypocritical when I've already acknowledged all the "facts" from the anime

Yeah I don't think we're in the same page here. You don't understand any of my reasonings and why I called you a hypocrite. I didn't even ridicule you enough to attack me with your emotions. That's an Appeal To Emotion Fallacy your hitting me with

I'm not denying that those events occurred in the anime. If you do go by the anime only, you will either come to two possible conclusions - 1. The Toei writers incorporated what was written in the manga later in the ToP

They never did incorporate what the Manga did but rather the opposite. They Made SsjB Goku surpass Ultra Instinct fork from Episode 110 and made Android 17 reach the level of Real Power Jiren. In fact they made most characters tip the God Tier and even wanked so many characters. Basically nothing of what the Manga has was ever included in the Anime.

Introducing SSG as a separate form, essentially adding inconsistency with previous events.

I guess because Current Goku can go Ssj that means his Base is equal to his Namek Saga counterpart? That's Occam's Razor. You need to explain why this is even contradictory, because it doesn't even correlate why Base > SsjG

That is, bad writing.

Whether it is bad writing or not, this is not to be included in debates at all

[2. Goku has two bases, one that is as strong as an SSG and that the power scaling in the anime is just so that Goku can be as strong as he wants to be and that it doesn't matter.

That's nothing but utter speculation, a theory which was invented by fans and never has it been supported ever. That's some counterfactual fallacy you got there. You have to show me PROOF for why it exists, otherwise it doesn't.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

This guy seems to take this stuff way too seriously and gets personally offended whenever anyone disagrees with him about it.

Nah not really offended at all that someone disagrees with me (I have a lot of these). I'm just personally blunt, and simply take debating seriously. Having a discussion is far different than having a debate.

[shadowfox87]

Manga Pretty much has its share of inconsistencies but I do agree it's far less than an anime,

At least you agree that the manga is far more consistent than the anime. We are getting somewhere.

You don't seem to even know what inconsistency mean. Just because The Anime disagrees with the Manga doesn't mean it's an inconsistency. It's quite objectively evident in the Anime at least that Base Goku surpassed BoG SsjG Goku, but in the Manga this is wrong. Your argument would only apply to the Manga and NOT to the Anime.

The reason for the inconsistency is not because the anime disagrees with the manga. That's not how inconsistency works. The anime disagrees with itself. Previously, the power of the SSG was absorbed into the base. This was in BoG and the anime. Beerus said himself that SSJ Goku is fighting on par as before even without SSG. More instances in the anime were shown with Goku in his base fighting Beerus like in the Monaka costume. Then, everything changed in the ToP when SSG was brought again as a separate form. This made the anime inconsistent with its own reasoning and logic. They retconned themselves. You're using "facts" from the anime and that's fine. Like I said, if you go only by the anime, you'll lead to the conclusion that you already have based on faulty logic since the anime itself has faulty logic.

They never did incorporate what the Manga did but rather the opposite. They Made SsjB Goku surpass Ultra Instinct fork from Episode 110 and made Android 17 reach the level of Real Power Jiren. In fact they made most characters tip the God Tier and even wanked so many characters. Basically nothing of what the Manga has was ever included in the Anime.

We are going in circles here. I already listed all the examples where the anime incorporated stuff from the manga, but I'll do it once again. The explanation for why Hit keeps his hands in his pockets was given in ToP, after the manga already explained it during the U6 arc. SSG was brought randomly in the ToP without any explanation of why it wasn't used previously in the U6 arc or even the Zamasu arc. The explanation for SSG conserving stamina was also used directly from the manga. The manga is behind the anime, so the anime later catches up and tries to incorporate things from the manga. This has been proven in many instances and I've cited every chapter and episode that it happens right here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062 (Please read this before replying, otherwise we will go again in circles.)

I guess because Current Goku can go Ssj that means his Base is equal to his Namek Saga counterpart? That's Occam's Razor. You need to explain why this is even contradictory, because it doesn't even correlate why Base > SsjG

Whoa whoa, when did his base become equal to his Namek saga counterpart? Obviously his base his greater than Buu saga. He's been training in his base along with Vegeta with Whis. Both Goku and Vegeta realize that in order to get stronger, they need to improve their base. Nobody is saying that Goku's base is Namek level. The point here is that regardless of how much stronger Goku's base is, SSG > Base always since SSG is just a multiplier of base.

Whether it is bad writing or not, this is not to be included in debates at all

It is, because bad writing already shows that there is inconsistency. Inconsistency leads to bad logic. This leads to bad assumptions like Base = SSG.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

The reason for the inconsistency is not because the anime disagrees with the manga. That's not how inconsistency works. The anime disagrees with itself. Previously, the power of the SSG was absorbed into the base. This was in BoG and the anime. Beerus said himself that SSJ Goku is fighting on par as before even without SSG. More instances in the anime were shown with Goku in his base fighting Beerus like in the Monaka costume. Then, everything changed in the ToP when SSG was brought again as a separate form.

There has been no inconsistency towards the Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG issue at all in the anime. You keep saying there is, but you are showing absolutely nothing to prove your point. Also, you bring the topic about Goku going SsjG, but this does not prove your point because SsjG is just a transformation. Goku being able to go SsjG is very natural since SsjB is SsjG + Ssj. How does him being able to go SsjG contradict Base > SsjG BoG? Answer is it doesn't.

Goku absorbed his SsjG Power and not the form itself into his Base, so him going SsjG doesn't prove your point. That's Occam's Razor, where you claim something and provide shit evidence without explaining how that shit evidence even proves your point. By your logic, Ssj Goku Namek Saga > Current Base Goku because he can go Ssj. SsjG is nothing but a transformation that can be earned by training just like Vegeta gained SsjB which is SsjG + Ssj. Your argument rely on piled-up conjectures then throwing it at me without explaining how they contribute to the issue in hand. Nothing changed in the ToP arc and instead it actually supports me. I advice you read This post fully since it covers every arc and even the Tournament of Power.

All you're doing is ignoring the other arcs for some reason but that's atrocious. Take into account everything and not just fixate on something you feel supportive.

This made the anime inconsistent with its own reasoning and logic. They retconned themselves. You're using "facts" from the anime and that's fine. Like I said, if you go only by the anime, you'll lead to the conclusion that you already have based on faulty logic since the anime itself has faulty logic.

Ah then I should ignore every objective matter and fact from the Anime because the Anime is inconsistent and thus I should use a source which doesn't even correlate? And telling me to say it's wrong because Goku can go SsjG? Nice logic. You need to explain your reasonings, not rely on your feelings behind the show.

We are going in circles here. I already listed all the examples where the anime incorporated stuff from the manga, but I'll do it once again.

You haven't listed anything major. And incorporating what happens in the Manga is nothing but shit argument since that would mean they're taking into account what happened in the Manga and making an example of it in the Anime. This doesn't support you in any possible aspect.

The explanation for why Hit keeps his hands in his pockets was given in ToP, after the manga already explained it during the U6 arc.

Yet non of that information has been even shown in the Anime and in fact everything goes differently in the Anime. Hit fights Vegeta without having his hands in his pocket except at a single point where Vegeta was getting fodderized. Hit got serious and removed his hands from his pockets against Goku without explaining anything. So what the Manga did differs completely from what the Anime did.

SSG was brought randomly in the ToP without any explanation of why it wasn't used previously in the U6 arc or even the Zamasu arc.

It has absolutely no reason for coming back, exactly. But this, sadly for You, doesn't support your argument in the slightest. They pulled it out for servicing and nothing more. In fact the Tournament of Power Arc returned many things from DBZ and earlier in DBS such as Fusion and stuff. It wasn't used before because SsjB sufficed, and Goku needed SsjB to even fair against Goku Black. Goku used SsjB against Frieza because he promised Frieza to go all out, and Vegeta went SsjB against Cabba to demonstrate SsjB to Cabba, and hit defeated Blue Vegeta so Goku didn't hold back at all which is what he even says.

The explanation for SSG conserving stamina was also used directly from the manga. The manga is behind the anime, so the anime later catches up and tries to incorporate things from the manga

SsjB Was also stated in the Anime to drain stamina, so this doesn't support you in the slightest. SsjG is a form which makes you able to perfectly control your Ki, and that being mentioned in the Manga doesn't support your point at all.

This has been proven in many instances and I've cited every chapter and episode that it happens right here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062 (Please read this before replying, otherwise we will go again in circles.)

We never did go in circles. You're just so fixated into your thoughts without clarifying them. Your post contributes to nothing regarding the issue between me and you. But I read it for the fun of it, so thank you for the entertainment and nice post

Whoa whoa, when did his base become equal to his Namek saga counterpart?

Nice strawman. Your logic makes this conclusion possible, not that I'm claiming that. Call me crazy but I have Buu Saga Base Goku above Ssj Goku Cell Saga

Obviously his base his greater than Buu saga. He's been training in his base along with Vegeta with Whis. Both Goku and Vegeta realize that in order to get stronger, they need to improve their base. Nobody is saying that Goku's base is Namek level. The point here is that regardless of how much stronger Goku's base is, SSG > Base always since SSG is just a multiplier of base.

Oh my god the logic is making me facepalm tens of times. SsjG > base? That's true since it's a multiplier. But CURRENT base Goku, NOT BASE MULTIPLIER (if that even exists), is above Goku's SSJG POWER FROM BoG

For example, if Current Base Goku is 100, then BoG SsjG Goku is a 1.

Regardless? I guess hypothetical Saiyan Saga Vegito is above Current Base Goku because Potara multiplier > Base. There's something called "getting stronger". Ssj > base, but current base Goku > Ssj Goku Namek saga, so it's possible. That "regardless" notion made me itch

It is, because bad writing already shows that there is inconsistency. Inconsistency leads to bad logic. This leads to bad assumptions like Base = SSG.

It is not. Bad writing argument is not to be used in a debate. You use terms like inconsistency and outliers, but you don't use the concept of bad writing because bad writing might be supported in the show

[shadowfox87]

There has been no inconsistency towards the Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG issue at all in the anime. You keep saying there is, but you are showing absolutely nothing to prove your point. Also, you bring the topic about Goku going SsjG, but this does not prove your point because SsjG is just a transformation. Goku being able to go SsjG is very natural since SsjB is SsjG + Ssj. How does him being able to go SsjG contradict Base > SsjG BoG? Answer is it doesn't.

Goku absorbed his SsjG Power and not the form itself into his Base, so him going SsjG doesn't prove your point. That's Occam's Razor, where you claim something and provide shit evidence without explaining how that shit evidence even proves your point. By your logic, Ssj Goku Namek Saga > Current Base Goku because he can go Ssj. SsjG is nothing but a transformation that can be earned by training just like Vegeta gained SsjB which is SsjG + Ssj. Your argument rely on piled-up conjectures then throwing it at me without explaining how they contribute to the issue in hand. Nothing changed in the ToP arc and instead it actually supports me. I advice you read This post fully since it covers every arc and even the Tournament of Power.

All you're doing is ignoring the other arcs for some reason but that's atrocious. Take into account everything and not just fixate on something you feel supportive.

You're missing the point once again. Your point is that base = SSG correct? In order to prove this, there is no difference between SSG and base. What is the point of transforming into SSG if base = SSG? I have already proven the point. It's common sense. Goku fought Jiren in base which did not even make Jiren flinch. Goku then turned into SSG which caused Jiren to use his finger to block Goku's punches. This is from the anime and already shows that there is a huge distinction between base and SSG.

You make a lot of statements that I've never even said. SSB > SSG > SSJ > Base. This should be common sense. SSJ is a multiplier of the base. I never stated that SSJ Goku (Namek) > Base Goku (ToP). That's absurd and I'm not sure how you got that conclusion. No arc in the anime is even being ignored. The evidence is right in front of you lol.

Ah then I should ignore every objective matter and fact from the Anime because the Anime is inconsistent and thus I should use a source which doesn't even correlate? And telling me to say it's wrong because Goku can go SsjG? Nice logic. You need to explain your reasonings, not rely on your feelings behind the show.

Nope, you acknowledge that the anime is inconsistent and realize that those inconsistencies should not be used to derive a logical conclusion. There are consistent things in the anime too which do have logic. SSG is not one of them.

You haven't listed anything major. And incorporating what happens in the Manga is nothing but shit argument since that would mean they're taking into account what happened in the Manga and making an example of it in the Anime. This doesn't support you in any possible aspect.

Lol, so first you say nothing has ever been incorporated from the manga into the anime. I give you the proof. Now, you say so what? The point here is that something that existed in the manga continues to exist and is logical with events in the past. When an anime incorporates things from the manga that it never incorporated before, that's a retcon. A nice way of saying, "we decided to add this because we didn't explain it before even though we should have."

Yet non of that information has been even shown in the Anime and in fact everything goes differently in the Anime. Hit fights Vegeta without having his hands in his pocket except at a single point where Vegeta was getting fodderized. Hit got serious and removed his hands from his pockets against Goku without explaining anything. So what the Manga did differs completely from what the Anime did.

That's the entire point. The anime made a mistake. The reason for Hit having his hands in his pockets was not explained until he fought Dyspo. The reason that Goku can predict Hit's movements is because he could see Hit's hands twitch just before the Time Skip. This is logical and makes sense. This logic was later adapted into the anime at the ToP.

It has absolutely no reason for coming back, exactly. But this, sadly for You, doesn't support your argument in the slightest. They pulled it out for servicing and nothing more. In fact the Tournament of Power Arc returned many things from DBZ and earlier in DBS such as Fusion and stuff. It wasn't used before because SsjB sufficed, and Goku needed SsjB to even fair against Goku Black. Goku used SsjB against Frieza because he promised Frieza to go all out, and Vegeta went SsjB against Cabba to demonstrate SsjB to Cabba, and hit defeated Blue Vegeta so Goku didn't hold back at all which is what he even says.

Oh, so you finally agree that "it has absolutely no reason for coming back, exactly." That is the point. In the anime, SSG was not needed, but it came back, why? It wasn't just fan service, SSG was used multiple times and had the same explanation as in the manga for using it - to conserve stamina. Yes, Goku used SSB against Freeza since he wanted to see Goku's full power. Yes, Vegeta used SSB against Cabba to show Cabba what saiyans are capable of. Vegeta lost to Hit because he wasted the stamina of using SSB before vs Cabba. In the anime and in the manga, Goku first fought Hit in his base form, so he was indeed holding back. In the manga, it even made more sense as Goku utilized SSG to conserve his stamina and then use SSB, allowing him to overcome Hit's Time Skip.

SsjB Was also stated in the Anime to drain stamina, so this doesn't support you in the slightest. SsjG is a form which makes you able to perfectly control your Ki, and that being mentioned in the Manga doesn't support your point at all.

Say what now? Every form has stamina drain, that's obvious. Both the anime and manga say that SSB has significant stamina drain. That's not the point here. I'm talking about SSG. The anime didn't have SSG after BoG until ToP. They used the same exact explanation from the manga. Of course it supports the point. The question we are debating about is still that Base Goku and SSG are completely different.

Nice strawman. Your logic makes this conclusion possible, not that I'm claiming that. Call me crazy but I have Buu Saga Base Goku above Ssj Goku Cell Saga.

o

In all my arguments with you, I have not once called you any names and I'd appreciate if you'd stay professional. I'm not sure what logic you are speaking of as none of my posts have ever stated that SSJ Goku (Namek) > Base Goku (ToP). I'm saying that SSG > Base Goku and that at no point did Base Goku = SSG. THIS is what I'm saying. Goku's base gets stronger over time of course through training. Stating that Base Goku (Buu Saga ) > SSJ Goku (Cell Saga) is reasonable and logical. Saying the opposite is not, so I'm not sure what logic you used to get to that conclusion.

Oh my god the logic is making me facepalm tens of times. SsjG > base? That's true since it's a multiplier. But CURRENT base Goku, NOT BASE MULTIPLIER (if that even exists), is above Goku's SSJG POWER FROM BoG

For example, if Current Base Goku is 100, then BoG SsjG Goku is a 1.

Regardless? I guess hypothetical Saiyan Saga Vegito is above Current Base Goku because Potara multiplier > Base. There's something called "getting stronger". Ssj > base, but current base Goku > Ssj Goku Namek saga, so it's possible. That "regardless" notion made me itch

Again, the point I'm saying is that Base Goku (BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG) AND Base Goku (ToP) < SSG Goku (BoG)

while you're saying:

Base Goku (BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG) AND Base Goku (ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG) correct?

This is what our debate is about, so please stick to it. Regardless of how strong Goku and Vegeta's bases have become since BoG, they are not at SSG level. If they were, they'd be eliminating people from the ToP effortlessly. SSG is on a whole other level that eclipses any previous forms that Goku ever had including SSJ3. SSG Goku from BoG was stated to be even above Vegito. Using math to calculate this, you will get a multiplier for SSG that's greater than 160k (400x400). By stating that Base Goku (ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG), you are saying that Goku increased his base more than 160k from BoG to ToP. THAT is the logic here and please use math, reference your episodes, and/or manga chapters to prove this assertion wrong.

By your logic, Base Goku (Zamasu) should have defeated Future Trunks right? You just said that Base Goku (ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG) Yet, in the anime and manga, he didn't. Future Trunks is far from SSG. In the anime, Goku needed SSJ3. Now tell me again that he has two bases.

[PFM18]

The Saiyan Beyond God crap was never a thing in DBS, only in the movies. Goku is weaker than SSG in his base but stronger than it in his SSJ form.

There is an extremely large gap between current Base Goku and everything in DBZ. That is just the nature of the series, the further you go in the story, the more enormous the levels of strength are.

[supercat]

Base Goku should now be far stronger than anything SSJ Vegetto and Buuhan were capable of in the Buu saga. Meaning, even if SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) had turned SSJ3 and teamed up with Buuhan, current Base Goku would wreck them with minimal effort.

Buuhan would go down instantly while a few attacks from a semi-serious Base Goku is likely enough to bring SSJ3 Vegetto to his knees. Final Form Frieza should be able wreck SSJ3 Vegetto and Buuhan just as easily, given how he's presumably on par with Base Goku. The Buu saga is basically a joke at this point as far as power goes.