Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

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Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by Ss5Troten » Mon May 07, 2018 6:48 am

A few weeks ago some folks on a discord I belong to were discussing how ridiculous the Zenkai boost Goku has after Ginyu is. Stating it to be the biggest jump in the series. I spent some time thinking on it. Some passive thoughts and also watching some English and JP dub along with reading a lot of forum thoughts on it.
——

I notice 2 things that get blown over every time this topic is discussed one, the lesser of the 2 in my opinion, is that their standing form power level don’t reflect peak power and peak power is what devastates. Regardless of if they power up first or are at base.

Vegeta was around 18,000 fighting Goku but his Galick Gun was concentrated Ki and thus stronger. Some measurements put this attack at 35,000 or 36,000. Meaning their body is producing a lot more Ki, or power, than their so-called “power level”. This is backed by the Kamehameha being stated at a couple points to be a very concentrated Ki measured like it’s user’s rising power level.

This is why the Zenkai ”jumps” aren’t that crazy to me in scale. We aren’t seeing the maximum Ki their bodies can handle almost ever until perhaps Super aside from a few times with Kaio-ken.

That being said we have no word whether Zenkai boosting is incremental based on how much abuse the body took alone or how high it’s thresholds were pushed etc. i.e. if Goku goes Kaio-ken 2x, 10x whatever his body is sustaining that stress and Ki (which the Saiya-jin etc measure in power levels) so when their bodies recover and Zenkai takes effect it’s likely that Zenkai is relative to all those limits that are broken like the multipliers and the sharp bursts that, for all we know, can potentially double or more it’s users “power level”.

Another thing, and this is slightly semantic so I don’t mean to present it as fact by any means but I believe it’s more important, Saiya-jin scouters blow up reading certain power levels, Freeza force scouters are stated as not being useful by Vegeta himself and plenty of characters manipulate the Ki level they are felt at meaning its likely scouters, maybe just at a certain point or ever, are just not reliable sources for such a variable thing.

This is why Scouters aren’t used in Freeza saga, this is why scouters are also never reintroduced (aside from one use on Future Trunks, I believe) even though technology is improved in the show and they could be brought up to speed with the alleged “power levels” from later if they were truly ever useful in the first place aside from a glorified homing GPS.

After Namek I truly think everybody knew these were useless and not just that levels were so big. We don’t even know for certain that the jumps have to be so devastating or massive just to make the enemy stronger in such a way that would be difficult. Who’s to say that a power level of 5,000,000 isn’t insane to somebody with a power level of 4,950,000? Or that a 20,000,000 wouldn’t be ridiculous to a 19,750,000. We have no evidence to suggest that at those levels 50k, 250k whatever doesn’t make a massive difference.

Power scaling is always talked about in the reverse way, like “oh Super has broken scaling every body is 50,00000,0700,000,00,0,00 power level” we just have no evidence of this, no canon anything has ever suggested ludicrous power level measurements and nothing has even backed them EVER being a credible or 100% accurate way to measure that user’s power.

Power levels are archaic measurements used by a few space militia’s who had limited to no understanding of Ki.

I’m not arguing against discussions over who is powerful or anything like that I’m just saying I truly think it’s deeper than just numbers on a machine can offer. Also stating that that being said we don’t know that any power level we ever got was good measure so we don’t know that Zenkai boosting is really broken at any point whether it be Goku’s Ginyu-Freeza Zenkai boost or Super scaling.

——

I could end the post there and if you’re done then by all means comment below and discuss but here I’m gonna leave some answers I gave to questions I was asked on the discord in response to my thoughts as I think they’re just as relevant info and may answer questions raised reading my post in advance.
Nothing seems to counteract the legacy of the scouters in the show. They must be end-all-be-all measurements.
I would say the very instance of them no longer being used, and explicitly so, would be evidence enough that this was a not a renege by Toriyama, rather just good story-telling. Vegeta denounces scouters once on earth and once on Namek, and Goku and friend’s spoke poorly of them as well even earlier. Even when Bulma tinkers with them and we find that Freeza force have better ones meaning they can be improved we still never see them reintroduced. This is not a mistake, it’s also not just because suppression, it’s truly because they see them as unnecessary, unusable for their purposes, or innacurate or all of the above.

Like I said a little semantic and definitely more educated guess than 100% but I think it’s explicitly dropped for a reason.

-
Why would they have ever been introduced if they were just going to be written out?
They weren’t “written out” they just recognized the uselessness of both the tool used to measure and probably the measurements themselves. I mean look, they hadn’t seen anything like Kamehameha when they were introduced to it noting that it was bizarre to them the way the power level was rising and acknowledging it was due to the technique. Also, charging up the way Goku and friends do is almost exclusive to them at that point. The bad guys either started strong and stayed that way until beat, instantly moved between different levels of power like a switch, steal bodies for more power or transform to other forms. Along with suppression. Leading me to believe they realized that scouters were pointless not really because power levels were getting higher, or else why not just fix them to read higher, but rather because they were simply inaccurate, archaic and couldn’t really couldn’t read other factors that were necessary.

I think, once again, the fact that power levels are introduced by the Saiya-Jin that arrive on earth and denounced by that very same group (well, Vegeta) is just good use of story-telling without actually telling us. They arrived, they had tech they thought was an advantage, it ended up felling them in many ways, they denounce it. Better tech on Namek, also felled, denounced again, end of use.

Point being I think “power levels” as a number measurement are a good discussion FOR Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga but likely not definitive. Furthermore, beyond those sagas “power level” takes on a literal meaning, “how much power they have”.

In conclusion:
In my opinion, we aren’t given numbers before or after scouters for a reason, they were never ever accurate. I think this is also fair enough reason for why we probably never knew Goku’s real strength on Namek before or after Super Saiya-jin. We may not have even know Freeza’s or any other on screen “power levels” so the Zenkai boost may never have been as dramatic as people make it out to be purely to argue scaling semantics.
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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by shadowfox87 » Mon May 07, 2018 4:22 pm

It's true that Earthlings found a way to suppress their power levels which is why scouters never were accurate to estimate their strength. This is why there were fluctuations when Goku was doing the Kamehameha or Piccolo doing the Makkankosappo vs Raditz. However, the power levels during the Namek Saga were given in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks. The 3 million base power level Goku had wasn't measured from a scouter. Initially, when Goku arrived on Namek, he suppressed his power level and the scouter said only 5000. Ginyu later asked Goku to power up to max. Goku did and the scouter said 180,000. This was with Kaioken, so his actual base power level was 90,000 without it. Hence, the zenkai is from 90,000 to 3 million which is very large. However, with zenkai boosts, they reach a saturation point - the curve is sigmoidal:
Image

Zenkai boosts were ignored pretty much after the Freeza saga. It was not until we got to the Zamasu arc where Black exploited Zenkai boosts to get stronger and have his own cells merge with Goku's body each time he was healed by Future Zamasu. In this case, even though Goku's body reached a saturation point, having Zamasu in Goku's body, infusing it with his own ki, somehow allowed him to get pass that saturation point. Similarly, Ginyu took Goku's body in the Namek saga. It was Ginyu who got beat up in Goku's body so badly that Goku needed recovering after he got his body back. Perhaps, switching bodies, allows the body itself to recover and reach higher zenkai. Vegeta tried to kill himself and got healed by Dende, but still didn't get as large a zenkai boost as Goku.

You read more about zenkai and power scaling here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by Ss5Troten » Wed May 09, 2018 2:42 am

shadowfox87 wrote:It's true that Earthlings found a way to suppress their power levels which is why scouters never were accurate to estimate their strength. This is why there were fluctuations when Goku was doing the Kamehameha or Piccolo doing the Makkankosappo vs Raditz. However, the power levels during the Namek Saga were given in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks. The 3 million base power level Goku had wasn't measured from a scouter. Initially, when Goku arrived on Namek, he suppressed his power level and the scouter said only 5000. Ginyu later asked Goku to power up to max. Goku did and the scouter said 180,000. This was with Kaioken, so his actual base power level was 90,000 without it. Hence, the zenkai is from 90,000 to 3 million which is very large. However, with zenkai boosts, they reach a saturation point - the curve is sigmoidal:
Image

Zenkai boosts were ignored pretty much after the Freeza saga. It was not until we got to the Zamasu arc where Black exploited Zenkai boosts to get stronger and have his own cells merge with Goku's body each time he was healed by Future Zamasu. In this case, even though Goku's body reached a saturation point, having Zamasu in Goku's body, infusing it with his own ki, somehow allowed him to get pass that saturation point. Similarly, Ginyu took Goku's body in the Namek saga. It was Ginyu who got beat up in Goku's body so badly that Goku needed recovering after he got his body back. Perhaps, switching bodies, allows the body itself to recover and reach higher zenkai. Vegeta tried to kill himself and got healed by Dende, but still didn't get as large a zenkai boost as Goku.

You read more about zenkai and power scaling here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
I’m quite familiar with the measurements and all that, but I feel like that explanation ignores the meat of what I meant by my post, which is that 180,000 might have been inaccurate, 1,000,000 might have been inaccurate for one of Freeza’s forms. The entire use of Power Levels as a measurment seemed to be dropped because it wasn’t accurate or useful. It’s possible that none of it ever meant anything and I’m actually betting on that with my words. Further more like I said we’re never given an explanation on all the factors that go into play with Zenkai boosts. As I said certain attacks and most all forms/transformations boost the Ki and thus power of the user so if “power level” was a thing and a user (Goku for example) went KK2 and we used that measurement anyway of 180,000, if he used any Ki attack like a Kamehameha his Ki and this power level would be beyond 180,000. I'm fairly certain we are told at least once these attacks raise “power level” and that it’s because the Ki is being concentrated. Which means the Zenkai boost may be taking these factors in, perhaps Goku’s power level with an attack in KK2 would have raised his power level to 500,000 we just don’t know. As I said this whole thing relies on assumptions or even semantics.
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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed May 09, 2018 6:14 pm

Ss5Troten wrote:I’m quite familiar with the measurements and all that, but I feel like that explanation ignores the meat of what I meant by my post, which is that 180,000 might have been inaccurate, 1,000,000 might have been inaccurate for one of Freeza’s forms. The entire use of Power Levels as a measurment seemed to be dropped because it wasn’t accurate or useful. It’s possible that none of it ever meant anything and I’m actually betting on that with my words. Further more like I said we’re never given an explanation on all the factors that go into play with Zenkai boosts. As I said certain attacks and most all forms/transformations boost the Ki and thus power of the user so if “power level” was a thing and a user (Goku for example) went KK2 and we used that measurement anyway of 180,000, if he used any Ki attack like a Kamehameha his Ki and this power level would be beyond 180,000. I'm fairly certain we are told at least once these attacks raise “power level” and that it’s because the Ki is being concentrated. Which means the Zenkai boost may be taking these factors in, perhaps Goku’s power level with an attack in KK2 would have raised his power level to 500,000 we just don’t know. As I said this whole thing relies on assumptions or even semantics.
It doesn't really matter if the power levels were officially written in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks though. These aren't measurements from a scouter. Scouters were inaccurate because Earthlings learned to suppress their energy which caused fluctuations. However, when Ginyu asked Goku to show his true power, Goku didn't hold back. That 180,000 is Goku's power level with Kaioken. Of course, he could've gone well beyond 180k if he did Kaioken x3-20, but at point in the story, that was his power level. Power levels became obsolete because the numbers were just too high and it became cumbersome to quantify so it was dropped.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 pm

I'd be interested in seeing if Goku and Vegeta's various power jumps, be they from training or Zenkai, increase by the same relative percentage. If it's the same then the Ginyu jump shouldn't be too surprising.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by Ss5Troten » Fri May 11, 2018 7:02 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
Ss5Troten wrote:[spoiler]I’m quite familiar with the measurements and all that, but I feel like that explanation ignores the meat of what I meant by my post, which is that 180,000 might have been inaccurate, 1,000,000 might have been inaccurate for one of Freeza’s forms. The entire use of Power Levels as a measurment seemed to be dropped because it wasn’t accurate or useful. It’s possible that none of it ever meant anything and I’m actually betting on that with my words. Further more like I said we’re never given an explanation on all the factors that go into play with Zenkai boosts. As I said certain attacks and most all forms/transformations boost the Ki and thus power of the user so if “power level” was a thing and a user (Goku for example) went KK2 and we used that measurement anyway of 180,000, if he used any Ki attack like a Kamehameha his Ki and this power level would be beyond 180,000. I'm fairly certain we are told at least once these attacks raise “power level” and that it’s because the Ki is being concentrated. Which means the Zenkai boost may be taking these factors in, perhaps Goku’s power level with an attack in KK2 would have raised his power level to 500,000 we just don’t know. As I said this whole thing relies on assumptions or even semantics.[/spoiler]
It doesn't really matter if the power levels were officially written in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks though. These aren't measurements from a scouter. Scouters were inaccurate because Earthlings learned to suppress their energy which caused fluctuations. However, when Ginyu asked Goku to show his true power, Goku didn't hold back. That 180,000 is Goku's power level with Kaioken. Of course, he could've gone well beyond 180k if he did Kaioken x3-20, but at point in the story, that was his power level. Power levels became obsolete because the numbers were just too high and it became cumbersome to quantify so it was dropped.
I think it does matter. We shouldn’t be considering Daizenshuu materials canon. On top of that even if scouters and power level readings are canon that doesn’t mean they ever were accurate. We aren’t ever told in-series that that is why they are not used anymore. We are however told that the readings aren’t helpful and the scouters are practically useless. So I stand by what I’ve said there in the OP and my reply I don’t believe scouters or power levels ever meant a thing and I also don’t believe the rating of 180,000 was either accurate nor important along with, as I’ve stated, any other readings. We didn’t have power levels in OG DB, we didn’t have them after Trunks kills Freeza and we’ll never have them again. That may or may not be because they’re “so high” but I’m betting it’s actually becuase they mean nothing. Technique, Hidden power/potential, multipliers, transformations and NDE’s have all been shown in to be far more important, unexpected and unmeasurable and they always surprise everybody, even the ones with the fancy machines.
KBABZ wrote:I'd be interested in seeing if Goku and Vegeta's various power jumps, be they from training or Zenkai, increase by the same relative percentage. If it's the same then the Ginyu jump shouldn't be too surprising.
Myself as well. I personally don’t think it is that surprising myself.
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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Fri May 11, 2018 9:30 pm

Ss5Troten wrote:
KBABZ wrote:I'd be interested in seeing if Goku and Vegeta's various power jumps, be they from training or Zenkai, increase by the same relative percentage. If it's the same then the Ginyu jump shouldn't be too surprising.
Myself as well. I personally don’t think it is that surprising myself.
You know what? Let's find out! I collated all of the Battle Powers listed on the main site's Combined List, and figured out the percentage increases for each stated power jump, be it through training or a Zenkai jump. I also only used "resting state" numbers because a ki charge or firing an attack isn't to me a reflection of their normal "baseline" battle power.

So looking at those numbers, what immediately stood out was for Goku, the jump from Raditz to Vegeta through Kaio's training is a significantly larger percentage than the training through space. And that itself is about the percentage boost for Goku from the start of the manga through to the Baba Yaga Saga.

Piccolo's training with Kaio is interesting too. If we assume he got the same percentage boost through his training as Goku did (193%), that leaves a truly shocking amount left over for the merging with Nail, which kinda feels like the Potara thing where the battle power is User A multiplied by User B. I also found it amusing that Gohan's two Zenkai boosts are almost exactly the same percentage, about 1,328%.

Vegeta's the most amusing to me; he's practically Zenkai incontinent until Zarbon kicks his butt!

---

Net result: All of this is made up and we shouldn't take stock in it. It's dictated by the writer, not by math.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by Ss5Troten » Sat May 12, 2018 12:11 am

KBABZ wrote:[spoiler]
Ss5Troten wrote:
KBABZ wrote:I'd be interested in seeing if Goku and Vegeta's various power jumps, be they from training or Zenkai, increase by the same relative percentage. If it's the same then the Ginyu jump shouldn't be too surprising.
Myself as well. I personally don’t think it is that surprising myself.
You know what? Let's find out! I collated all of the Battle Powers listed on the main site's Combined List, and figured out the percentage increases for each stated power jump, be it through training or a Zenkai jump. I also only used "resting state" numbers because a ki charge or firing an attack isn't to me a reflection of their normal "baseline" battle power.

So looking at those numbers, what immediately stood out was for Goku, the jump from Raditz to Vegeta through Kaio's training is a significantly larger percentage than the training through space. And that itself is about the percentage boost for Goku from the start of the manga through to the Baba Yaga Saga.

Piccolo's training with Kaio is interesting too. If we assume he got the same percentage boost through his training as Goku did (193%), that leaves a truly shocking amount left over for the merging with Nail, which kinda feels like the Potara thing where the battle power is User A multiplied by User B. I also found it amusing that Gohan's two Zenkai boosts are almost exactly the same percentage, about 1,328%.

Vegeta's the most amusing to me; he's practically Zenkai incontinent until Zarbon kicks his butt![/spoiler]
Net result: All of this is made up and we shouldn't take stock in it. It's dictated by the writer, not by math.
That was a very amusing read, though what sticks out to me like a sore thumb and always will is that all of the extremely high power levels are the ones never actually stated by anybody in the show or Toriyama-sensei. Meaning to me the exact same as the net result there says: writer over math. In interviews several times we’ve been told, most recently by Toyo, that we look to deep into the numbers and that they don’t mean anything unless stated in-canon or by Toriyama. So as I’ve been stating this whole time, the numbers don’t mean a thing and they never have! If they did Toriyama would probably have used them at least a few more times since or mentioned them himself but it’s not gonna happen.

Thank you for going out of your way to compile that info lol, I love that old stuff. There was a time when I really thought about Power Levels a lot. When I was a kid and young teen in the early 2000s I’d go on Blood of a Saiyan, Temple O Trunks, DaizEX, MyFavoriteGames and a few others and I’d compile ridiculous power level sheets and character bios, episode summaries, attack/tech lists, age lists, fan theories and old AF stuff and print them off from. Carrying them around in my school binder like religious texts, studying, waiting for debate. The only sad part to me is that there is quite a bit of that old pre-US release stuff that has either been proved wrong or retconned lol. Once again giving me a “back in my day” experience hahahah.
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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Sat May 12, 2018 3:08 am

Ss5Troten wrote:That was a very amusing read, though what sticks out to me like a sore thumb and always will is that all of the extremely high power levels are the ones never actually stated by anybody in the show or Toriyama-sensei.
I agree. As much as I love the Daizenshuu, I think that there's a lot of fast 'n loose stuff going on regarding speculation or things not shown in the show/manga that gives them a bit less credibility. In particular I think to stuff like Star Wars where a game or novel does one thing, and then Lucas comes along and overwrites it. That's what that sort of stuff feels like, and Battle Powers are a fantastic example of that.

I'm glad you were able to figure out that Power Levels ultimately mean not a whole lot outside of "this guy is stronger than that at this particular moment". They're shorthand for saying how screwed/even the combatants are, and nothing more. I have the same outlook with things like "Would Goku have beaten Beerus if he went SSGSS with SS4?", because the only answer I get in my head is "exactly as powerful as the story demands" (in that case Beerus would be more powerful, because in BoG the point of Beerus is that nothing works and they have a long way to go, as exemplified by SS3 not working and then much later on SSG not working either).

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by PFM18 » Sat May 12, 2018 4:16 pm

KBABZ wrote:I'd be interested in seeing if Goku and Vegeta's various power jumps, be they from training or Zenkai, increase by the same relative percentage. If it's the same then the Ginyu jump shouldn't be too surprising.
Vegeta was in the 30-50% range for his first two zenkais for sure. And then the one he got after being beat by Recoome was absolutely colossal in comparison. It had to have been atleast a 10x boost in power.(900% stronger) and then the next one he received was a pretty modest increase similar to his other ones. Goku only really got the one after Ginyu and that was absolutely enormous for no real reason.

So no, they don't really increase by the same relative percentage. They are pretty inconsistent and just kind of coincide with what would be convenient for the plot.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Sat May 12, 2018 7:42 pm

PFM18 wrote:Vegeta was in the 30-50% range for his first two zenkais for sure. And then the one he got after being beat by Recoome was absolutely colossal in comparison. It had to have been atleast a 10x boost in power.(900% stronger) and then the next one he received was a pretty modest increase similar to his other ones. Goku only really got the one after Ginyu and that was absolutely enormous for no real reason.

So no, they don't really increase by the same relative percentage. They are pretty inconsistent and just kind of coincide with what would be convenient for the plot.
I notice that there is a LITTLE bit more regarding how badly they get beaten (for example, Goku's Zenkai after Tao was enormous), but in principle yes it's totally random. I'd say Vegeta's beating at Zarbon was way more than Recoome, and yet THAT'S the one that gives him a huge jump?

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by PFM18 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:05 pm

KBABZ wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Vegeta was in the 30-50% range for his first two zenkais for sure. And then the one he got after being beat by Recoome was absolutely colossal in comparison. It had to have been atleast a 10x boost in power.(900% stronger) and then the next one he received was a pretty modest increase similar to his other ones. Goku only really got the one after Ginyu and that was absolutely enormous for no real reason.

So no, they don't really increase by the same relative percentage. They are pretty inconsistent and just kind of coincide with what would be convenient for the plot.
I notice that there is a LITTLE bit more regarding how badly they get beaten (for example, Goku's Zenkai after Tao was enormous), but in principle yes it's totally random. I'd say Vegeta's beating at Zarbon was way more than Recoome, and yet THAT'S the one that gives him a huge jump?
Exactly. He took a way bigger beating against Zarbon but only got a marginal boost in comparison to the one he got after being defeated by Recoome. THe zenkai boosts are a convenient plot device and the amount of the boost purely depends on the plot and not on consistency.(I have no problem with that but that is just how it is.)

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Sun May 13, 2018 5:56 pm

PFM18 wrote:I have no problem with that but that is just how it is.)\
Me neither! I actually find it quite clever and is a cool mechanic to have characters get stronger quickly, which is enabling for Vegeta and his path of revenge. It also thematically suits the Saiyan warrior race in a sort of dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest sort of way.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by R. Daneel Olivaw » Sun May 13, 2018 9:48 pm

KBABZ wrote: = VS Vegeta to Ginyu Force =
8,000 > [GRAVITY] > 90,000 = 1,125%
That would also include a Zenkai from getting completely crushed by Vegeta. I always forget that 180,000 wasn't Goku's base power when fighting Ginyu.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by KBABZ » Sun May 13, 2018 11:05 pm

R. Daneel Olivaw wrote:
KBABZ wrote: = VS Vegeta to Ginyu Force =
8,000 > [GRAVITY] > 90,000 = 1,125%
That would also include a Zenkai from getting completely crushed by Vegeta. I always forget that 180,000 wasn't Goku's base power when fighting Ginyu.
Oooh that's right! Yes that would account for part of the boost.

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Re: Some thoughts on scouters, power levels, Zenkai and scaling.

Post by Ss5Troten » Sat May 19, 2018 12:55 am

KBABZ wrote:
R. Daneel Olivaw wrote:
KBABZ wrote: = VS Vegeta to Ginyu Force =
8,000 > [GRAVITY] > 90,000 = 1,125%
That would also include a Zenkai from getting completely crushed by Vegeta. I always forget that 180,000 wasn't Goku's base power when fighting Ginyu.
Oooh that's right! Yes that would account for part of the boost.
Yeah being crushed to death then training in ridiculous gravity would do quite a lot for the body if you could heal and Zenkai.

I love the points you guys have been bringing up. I don’t believe in power levels and it’s been nice to read some people making great points that really drive home how inconsequential some of those factors really are.

I was on reddit today and read a 5 year old post where a guy essentially took the words right out of my mouth. We said pretty similar things and he even counters similarly and seeing so many like-minded people has had a pretty solid effect on that aspect of canon for me.
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