Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

[Zephyr]

Damn, so I guess you just gotta have unlimited stamina, train real hard, and have a healthy family & career then you can reach ToP-tier strength. That might explain why most of the Z-Senshi are so weak by the time the DBS anime rolls around; everyone has limited stamina, trains not hardly enough, and are total basket cases on a social & personal level. Who would've thought that Goku & Vegeta only needed to be better husbands & fathers in order to become thousands of times stronger?

You're making it sound like you don't actually want an answer.

[theherodjl]

You're making it sound like you don't actually want an answer.

I was being mostly sarcastic, but then I actually began to wonder if there was indeed something to having a strong bond that increases power in DB. Trunks somehow became more powerful than Merged Zamasu by absorbing everyone's hope. Goku pulled up further power to defeat Jiren's awakened power-up after he admitted that he was fighting for his friends & trust. Vegeta & Android 17 were able to survive moves that were otherwise suicide maneuvers on any other day because they refused to simply die & let their loved ones down. It would be cliche as hell to receive a power-up from something like "love" or "friendship"; DB isn't known for being original though.

[SupremeKai25]

was being mostly sarcastic, but then I actually began to wonder if there was indeed something to having a strong bond that increases power in DB. Trunks somehow became more powerful than Merged Zamasu by absorbing everyone's hope.

Then Fused Zamasu should have been the strongest guy every since the closest and strongest bond you can have with someone is the bond you have with yourself. They are just asspulls. The fact that Fused Zamasu, THE Fused Zamasu who was the fusion between Goku Black (who stomped effortlessly on several occasions Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) and Future Zamasu (who was immortal), was completely defeated by the power of hope, love and friendship... Ugh. Such a cheap and nonsensical way to get rid of this unbelievably powerful villain, it's like Toei said 'Oh crap, we made the villain too strong since he is immortal and supremely powerful, how can the good guys defeat him?', and just went for the most unoriginal route possible. 'Oh, we'll just have Trunks defeat him because if you really, really love your friends, then everyone can be defeated, no matter how powerful they are.'

[theherodjl]

Then Fused Zamasu should have been the strongest guy every since the closest and strongest bond you can have with someone is the bond you have with yourself. They are just asspulls. The fact that Fused Zamasu, THE Fused Zamasu who was the fusion between Goku Black (who stomped effortlessly on several occasions Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) and Future Zamasu (who was immortal), was completely defeated by the power of hope, love and friendship... Ugh. Such a cheap and nonsensical way to get rid of this unbelievably powerful villain, it's like Toei said 'Oh crap, we made the villain too strong since he is immortal and supremely powerful, how can the good guys defeat him?', and just went for the most unoriginal route possible. 'Oh, we'll just have Trunks defeat him because if you really, really love your friends, then everyone can be defeated, no matter how powerful they are.'

No disrespect here, but is your 'Zamasu sense' tingling whenever someone discusses or mentions Zamasu in the slightest?

[Kataphrut]

Ten years of training, plus infinite energy. When I put it that way, it doesn't seem so strange.

[SupremeKai25]

Then Fused Zamasu should have been the strongest guy every since the closest and strongest bond you can have with someone is the bond you have with yourself. They are just asspulls. The fact that Fused Zamasu, THE Fused Zamasu who was the fusion between Goku Black (who stomped effortlessly on several occasions Goku, Vegeta and Trunks) and Future Zamasu (who was immortal), was completely defeated by the power of hope, love and friendship... Ugh. Such a cheap and nonsensical way to get rid of this unbelievably powerful villain, it's like Toei said 'Oh crap, we made the villain too strong since he is immortal and supremely powerful, how can the good guys defeat him?', and just went for the most unoriginal route possible. 'Oh, we'll just have Trunks defeat him because if you really, really love your friends, then everyone can be defeated, no matter how powerful they are.'

No disrespect here, but is your 'Zamasu sense' tingling whenever someone discusses or mentions Zamasu in the slightest?

No offense taken, obviously, but make no mistake. My well-written argument about Fused Zamasu is not completely unrelated to yours about 17.

[Meshack]

It was stated in both the cartoon and comic that there have been threats to the earth that Gokou and the others didn’t know about. This is similar to Spider-Man facing the Vulture but Iron Man, Captain America, Luke Cage, Daredevil or anyone else not showing up.

No. 17 can train all he wants without getting tired due to his infinite energy reactors. No. 17 was already stronger than Mechanical Freeza with just some mechanical modifications so it’s not hard to comprehend No. 17’s ability to get stronger. But just to clarify, No. 17 is not as strong as Blue Gokou. Gokou used Blue several times in the recruitment matches and Tournament of Power on people that’re several times weaker than him. In the comic, it’s pretty clear that No. 17 is stronger or at least close to SS3 Gokou in power.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

No offense taken, obviously, but make no mistake. My well-written argument about Fused Zamasu is not completely unrelated to yours about 17.

Here's a way they could have given Trunks the kill on Black or Fused Zamasu. When they went back to the future after Beerus Hakai'd Zamasu and noticed Black was still there, Gowasu would point out "Hey, he's using that time ring so he remains in existence." The group would theorize if there might be a way to remove the ring, but Black obviously isn't just going to let you walk up and pull it off, so that won't work. However, they find out that having an immortal body doesn't mean you can't be damaged at all, it just makes it incredibly hard to damage you, and you heal from it almost instantly. Then they decide, hey, let's cut the bastard's hand off! Even if his hand grows back in a second, that's all the time it takes for him to cease to exist. So, Goku and Vegeta distract Black for a while, and Trunks comes in with his sword and chops his hand off. It falls to the ground, Black glances at his severed wrist, and is consumed by the paradox and dies.

But, no, he had to pull a Genki Dama sword out of his urethra, for some reason, somehow.

[SupremeKai25]

No offense taken, obviously, but make no mistake. My well-written argument about Fused Zamasu is not completely unrelated to yours about 17.

Here's a way they could have given Trunks the kill on Black or Fused Zamasu. When they went back to the future after Beerus Hakai'd Zamasu and noticed Black was still there, Gowasu would point out "Hey, he's using that time ring so he remains in existence." The group would theorize if there might be a way to remove the ring, but Black obviously isn't just going to let you walk up and pull it off, so that won't work. However, they find out that having an immortal body doesn't mean you can't be damaged at all, it just makes it incredibly hard to damage you, and you heal from it almost instantly. Then they decide, hey, let's cut the bastard's hand off! Even if his hand grows back in a second, that's all the time it takes for him to cease to exist. So, Goku and Vegeta distract Black for a while, and Trunks comes in with his sword and chops his hand off. It falls to the ground, Black glances at his severed wrist, and is consumed by the paradox and dies.

But, no, he had to pull a Genki Dama sword out of his urethra, for some reason, somehow.

Actually, this is something I have been wondering for a while. Black literally told Goku and friends that the only thing keeping him alive was the Time Ring, so why did no one though of cutting off his Ring? Obviously Zamasu wouldn't have let them just walk towards him and cut off his Ring, but they could have tried at least to take this route as a 'Plan B' in case the Mafuba technique failed.

I did not mention Fused Zamasu's defeat out of nowhere. This subject, just like Android 17's power increase in Super, falls into the category of 'asspulls to make the plot cooler'. To which my opinion is that it doesn't make much sense to explain these things. They were just made up to make the plot cooler. Nothing more.

[Meshack]

No offense taken, obviously, but make no mistake. My well-written argument about Fused Zamasu is not completely unrelated to yours about 17.

Here's a way they could have given Trunks the kill on Black or Fused Zamasu. When they went back to the future after Beerus Hakai'd Zamasu and noticed Black was still there, Gowasu would point out "Hey, he's using that time ring so he remains in existence." The group would theorize if there might be a way to remove the ring, but Black obviously isn't just going to let you walk up and pull it off, so that won't work. However, they find out that having an immortal body doesn't mean you can't be damaged at all, it just makes it incredibly hard to damage you, and you heal from it almost instantly. Then they decide, hey, let's cut the bastard's hand off! Even if his hand grows back in a second, that's all the time it takes for him to cease to exist. So, Goku and Vegeta distract Black for a while, and Trunks comes in with his sword and chops his hand off. It falls to the ground, Black glances at his severed wrist, and is consumed by the paradox and dies.

But, no, he had to pull a Genki Dama sword out of his urethra, for some reason, somehow.

Actually, this is something I have been wondering for a while. Black literally told Goku and friends that the only thing keeping him alive was the Time Ring, so why did no one though of cutting off his Ring? Obviously Zamasu wouldn't have let them just walk towards him and cut off his Ring, but they could have tried at least to take this route as a 'Plan B' in case the Mafuba technique failed.

I did not mention Fused Zamasu's defeat out of nowhere. This subject, just like Android 17's power increase in Super, falls into the category of 'asspulls to make the plot cooler'. To which my opinion is that it doesn't make much sense to explain these things. They were just made up to make the plot cooler. Nothing more.

No. 17’s strength didn’t play a role in this arc. It was his stamina. So what’s the “asspull” here?

[SupremeKai25]

Here's a way they could have given Trunks the kill on Black or Fused Zamasu. When they went back to the future after Beerus Hakai'd Zamasu and noticed Black was still there, Gowasu would point out "Hey, he's using that time ring so he remains in existence." The group would theorize if there might be a way to remove the ring, but Black obviously isn't just going to let you walk up and pull it off, so that won't work. However, they find out that having an immortal body doesn't mean you can't be damaged at all, it just makes it incredibly hard to damage you, and you heal from it almost instantly. Then they decide, hey, let's cut the bastard's hand off! Even if his hand grows back in a second, that's all the time it takes for him to cease to exist. So, Goku and Vegeta distract Black for a while, and Trunks comes in with his sword and chops his hand off. It falls to the ground, Black glances at his severed wrist, and is consumed by the paradox and dies.

But, no, he had to pull a Genki Dama sword out of his urethra, for some reason, somehow.

Actually, this is something I have been wondering for a while. Black literally told Goku and friends that the only thing keeping him alive was the Time Ring, so why did no one though of cutting off his Ring? Obviously Zamasu wouldn't have let them just walk towards him and cut off his Ring, but they could have tried at least to take this route as a 'Plan B' in case the Mafuba technique failed.

I did not mention Fused Zamasu's defeat out of nowhere. This subject, just like Android 17's power increase in Super, falls into the category of 'asspulls to make the plot cooler'. To which my opinion is that it doesn't make much sense to explain these things. They were just made up to make the plot cooler. Nothing more.

No. 17’s strength didn’t play a role in this arc. It was his stamina. So what’s the “asspull” here?

How much stamina can a cybernetically-enhanced punk have? Is he immortal? The entire lore of these Androids is messed up. So apparently a Human scientist was able to give two punks nigh-immortality and the strength that surpassed even Frieza's. What a joke.

As I said, it's better if I don't think too much about this.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

How much stamina can a cybernetically-enhanced punk have? Is he immortal? The entire lore of these Androids is messed up. So apparently a Human scientist was able to give two punks nigh-immortality and the strength that surpassed even Frieza's. What a joke.

Actually, this gives me an idea. Android 19 and 20 would be even more effective in the Tournament of Power. They might not have limitless stamina, but they could just keep grabbing opponents, sapping their energy until collapse from exhaustion (but making sure not to kill them) and then toss them out of the ring. Of course, if they're facing someone that's quick enough to evade their grasp or has enough energy to completely overload them, they might not fare as well.

And I'd consider Black telling everyone "This is the thing keeping me alive" is like Cell announcing "Hey, I die if the core of cells in my head is destroyed." What a jackass.

[theherodjl]

No. 17’s strength didn’t play a role in this arc. It was his stamina. So what’s the “asspull” here?

How isn't it an asspull? Android 17 had enough strength to fend off Jiren, the guy with strength greater than his own Hakaishin! Even if Jiren was weakened, it takes a LOT of strength to even handle 1/10th of a Hakaishin's power. Then 17 somehow survives his own suicide technique(which would mean its not a suicide technique if anyone in DB cared about the literal definition of the word) as well as having suffered no visible repercussions from it. Also, his shielding technique inexplicably was now sturdy enough to hold back the fury of Jiren's 'awakened' power-up. All of this was the result of "love, friendship, and trust will always overcome adversity!" tropes for the sake of U7 needing to win the tournament; its cool & all but it is totally an asspull.

[Zeru14]

How much stamina can a cybernetically-enhanced punk have? Is he immortal? The entire lore of these Androids is messed up. So apparently a Human scientist was able to give two punks nigh-immortality and the strength that surpassed even Frieza's. What a joke.

Gero also managed to do this despite not having any battle data for Namek, he had no idea what Super Saiyans were, but still created beings stronger than them anyway, using just Earth technology and far less resources than the super rich Capsule Corporation, I could believe someone in Universe 3 doing this, but someone in Universe 7 on a backwater planet like Earth, something like this, just can't and shouldn't happen.

[Jackalope89]

How much stamina can a cybernetically-enhanced punk have? Is he immortal? The entire lore of these Androids is messed up. So apparently a Human scientist was able to give two punks nigh-immortality and the strength that surpassed even Frieza's. What a joke.

Gero also managed to do this despite not having any battle data for Namek, he had no idea what Super Saiyans were, but still created beings stronger than them anyway, using just Earth technology and far less resources than the super rich Capsule Corporation, I could believe someone in Universe 3 doing this, but someone in Universe 7 on a backwater planet like Earth, something like this, just can't and shouldn't happen.

Clearly he was still using a fair amount of the RR's resources, despite it being defunct for some time. Not to mention, Capsule Corp devoted time to the Capsules, flying vehicles, etc. But never anything on weapons of war. While the RR had made numerous weapons of war, including androids that kept growing stronger after each model (barring 19 and 20/Gero, but those were for control more than power).

And in a show with space monkey pirates, androgynous alien tyrants, purple cat gods, giant green bugs that drink people, and fitting vehicles and small houses into tiny capsules...

Complaining that a psychopathic evil genius would create monstrously strong cyborgs seems like small beans.

[theherodjl]

Clearly he was still using a fair amount of the RR's resources, despite it being defunct for some time. Not to mention, Capsule Corp devoted time to the Capsules, flying vehicles, etc. But never anything on weapons of war. While the RR had made numerous weapons of war, including androids that kept growing stronger after each model (barring 19 and 20/Gero, but those were for control more than power).

And in a show with space monkey pirates, androgynous alien tyrants, purple cat gods, giant green bugs that drink people, and fitting vehicles and small houses into tiny capsules...

Complaining that a psychopathic evil genius would create monstrously strong cyborgs seems like small beans.

But what are the odds that his later models, the ones he had to secretly build by himself in a hollowed-out cave with a limited amount of biological/mechanical resources, coincidentally were twice the strength of Namek SSJ Goku? How could Gero have calculated enough to make his Androids that strong without even knowing about how much Zenkais could improve a Saiyan's strength or about SSJ? Additionally, how could he have constructed his Androids to have immense potential on top of their already massive strength, unique anatomies, and special abilities? Gero fits the trope of the evil, brilliant scientist all too well; to the point in that all developments regarding the Androids can simply be excused due to Gero just having enough foresight. Its either absolutely ridiculous or utterly genius(or both) how Android 17 can become many thousands of times stronger than Cell, Gero's self-described "ultimate creation", just by having an active lifestyle for ten years.

[Koitsukai]

Well, didn't Bulma in a destroyed world(I guess electricity would have been far gone by that time) create a time machine, something that breaks the laws of physichs and the laws of the kaioshin/Zeno? is not like each universe has mastered time travel, just Bulma and that one dude from U-12 IIRC, and is not like time travel was something that Bulma worked on all of her life, actually our Bulma still has no clue in the how-to department even after having two time machines in front of her, built by her future self.

[Meshack]

Well, didn't Bulma in a destroyed world(I guess electricity would have been far gone by that time) create a time machine, something that breaks the laws of physichs and the laws of the kaioshin/Zeno? is not like each universe has mastered time travel, just Bulma and that one dude from U-12 IIRC, and is not like time travel was something that Bulma worked on all of her life, actually our Bulma still has no clue in the how-to department even after having two time machines in front of her, built by her future self.

What do you mean, "breaks... the laws of the Kaiohshin and Zenoh"?

[theherodjl]

What do you mean, "breaks... the laws of the Kaiohshin and Zenoh"?

The cosmic hierarchy disapproves of time travel even if it is done so with pure intentions; Beerus considered destroying Trunks just for having done so.

[Meshack]

What do you mean, "breaks... the laws of the Kaiohshin and Zenoh"?

The cosmic hierarchy disapproves of time travel even if it is done so with pure intentions; Beerus considered destroying Trunks just for having done so.

I mean, Beerus isn’t a Kaiohshin or Zenoh. Should’ve just said somethjng about it being taboo among the gods