Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by dbgtFO » Sun May 20, 2018 4:49 am

Pantalones wrote:I always figured that since #17's modifications are mostly not of the "robot parts" sort, his power source probably actually works by amplifying his own natural ki and changing it to a different, more efficient, and undetectable form of energy (coincidentally, we found out thanks to Whis that learning to develop godly ki as a mortal involves keeping one's ki concentrated inward and makes it undetectable to mortals, so there's a precedent for "undetectable ki = more concentrated/better ki" in the series.)

So every little tiny bit of power increase he gains by training means the "infinite energy reactor" inside him now has even more "fuel" to amplify and convert to concentrated, undetectable "Android energy" rather than leaving it as normal human ki. And when you consider that he was just an ordinary teenage punk before undergoing Dr. Gero's procedure, well... you can imagine just how massive his gains from training are going to be.

If he goes from a normal-human power level of 5 to... let's say something in the range of 400 million... just from Gero's modifications alone and no training whatsoever, that means every single power level point he gains through training equals an increase of a whopping EIGHTY MILLION to his enhanced power level. If he trained to a point where his "natural" power level rose into the teens, he'd be rapidly approaching the 1 billion mark. Training hard like Goku and Krillin did back at the beginning of Dragonball would probably push him ahead of Super Perfect Cell. Hell, maybe he's trained with Korin since if I'm remembering right the park he watches over is located not far from his tower -- that would push him into the realm of Buu Saga characters for sure. After that, years of gradual increases from the infamous "mountain training" is all he'd really need to surpass SSj3 level. And if he learns regular ki control techniques instead of relying entirely on Gero's enhancements and starts mixing meditation/image training/etc. in with the purely physical methods, all bets are off -- if he was able to raise his "natural" power level up to the 430 mark like beginning-of-Z Goku and Piccolo, he'd end up with an "enhanced" level of more than 33 BILLION. And we know for a fact that regular human martial artists can reach the 400-some mark, every single one of the human fighters (even lazy-ass Yajirobe and weak-ass Chiaotzu! hell, even Roshi suddenly pulled power at least on that level out of his ass!) had far surpassed that level years ago.

#17 only has to get his "natural" level as high as Saiyan Saga Krillin to get into the hundred-billions.
I never thought of it this way, thanks for coming up with a well constructed theory I can get behind!
And thanks to the OP for creating this topic in the first place ^_^

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by Anonymous Friend » Sun May 20, 2018 11:05 am

Personally, I've come to the thought that we have to rescale our thoughts on power when dealing with Super. The rankings are still the same, but the gaps between not as much. This would allow for individual growth without levels being absurd.

In Super, everyone was freaking out because Freeza returned. This is based only on the experience on Namek and his very brief visit to Earth. You would think that they would be more relaxed having the Namekian who went toe-to-toe with the Android who effortlessly stomped the Super Saiyan who previously defeated said tyrant.

I think having a no-kill tournament as the big battle framing device actually worked out in the favor of the series. The Ressurection F arc came down to Freea exhausting his stamina quickly and blowing up the planet. The Black arc had two Deus ex Machina endings. And at this point in the series, we have no actual stakes because of all the various dragon balls out there. We know the everything gets put back together. So, if our heroes still have to win a big fight, don't have it be about killing a villain. Have it be the closest we can get in this series where the fight is no so much determined by who has the highest power, but instead inject more strategy and planning. The moar powah still comes up, but you still have sprinklings of conservation and not going as all out if this was a normal fight to the death.

And this is where 17 and 18's particular skill set comes into play. We have a Freeza level character who doesn't have to worry about Buu level consequences. Combatants still have to worry because you can still be knocked off if you're not paying attention, but no one's going to murder you. We even know within the first few episodes who to keep an eye on regarding the highest power levels.

As a side note, I've always figured that the reason the future Android's were weaker was because the kept defying Gero and he was trying to make them more manageable. The Z warriors intercepted him before he could do that with their future knowledge. Gero make fantastic devices. To bad he could only think about revenge.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun May 20, 2018 4:48 pm

My take is that Android 17 has high potential, has never formally trained before, doesn't run out of stamina, and had plenty of time.

No wait, that's just the facts.

Basically, it's the equivalent of going from Krillin in early DB to Krillin in late DBZ, but Krillin is starting out stronger than Freeza and can constantly train without issue.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by theherodjl » Sun May 20, 2018 5:42 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My take is that Android 17 has high potential, has never formally trained before, doesn't run out of stamina, and had plenty of time.

No wait, that's just the facts.

Basically, it's the equivalent of going from Krillin in early DB to Krillin in late DBZ, but Krillin is starting out stronger than Freeza and can constantly train without issue.
Android 17's boost makes Krillin's pre-DBS boosts look insignificant by comparison. Krillin went from the tens of thousands in BP to the millions in-between the three year gap of the Android's arrival & the period right before the ToP. 17 on the other hand, went from the hundreds of millions to the many trillions & possibly quadrillions that we see in the ToP. Its hardly a comparison.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 pm

theherodjl wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My take is that Android 17 has high potential, has never formally trained before, doesn't run out of stamina, and had plenty of time.

No wait, that's just the facts.

Basically, it's the equivalent of going from Krillin in early DB to Krillin in late DBZ, but Krillin is starting out stronger than Freeza and can constantly train without issue.
Android 17's boost makes Krillin's pre-DBS boosts look insignificant by comparison. Krillin went from the tens of thousands in BP to the millions in-between the three year gap of the Android's arrival & the period right before the ToP. 17 on the other hand, went from the hundreds of millions to the many trillions & possibly quadrillions that we see in the ToP. Its hardly a comparison.
Notice that I said early DB (not Z) into later DBZ.

It's a more apt comparison I feel, as the sheer scale in gaps is immensely huge for a similar amount of time. And that's with Krillin starting out without any real advantages that 17 has. 17 has EVERYTHING going for him:

Untapped potential, unlimited stamina and energy for constant training without worry about exhaustion, 14 years of time alone, and an extremely high starting level of strength.

It's certainly much more arguable than Freeza, who only has the high starting level of strength. All of these advantages compound together and exponentially increase his gains. Not to mention that he's not going THAT far in power; the god forms are, at most, only a few thousand times stronger than the previous strongest in the universe, Majin Buu. Android 17 only has to get a few dozen thousand times stronger or so in those 13 years; more achievable than one might think given those advantages that he has.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PFM18 » Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Pantalones wrote:I always figured that since #17's modifications are mostly not of the "robot parts" sort, his power source probably actually works by amplifying his own natural ki and changing it to a different, more efficient, and undetectable form of energy (coincidentally, we found out thanks to Whis that learning to develop godly ki as a mortal involves keeping one's ki concentrated inward and makes it undetectable to mortals, so there's a precedent for "undetectable ki = more concentrated/better ki" in the series.)

So every little tiny bit of power increase he gains by training means the "infinite energy reactor" inside him now has even more "fuel" to amplify and convert to concentrated, undetectable "Android energy" rather than leaving it as normal human ki. And when you consider that he was just an ordinary teenage punk before undergoing Dr. Gero's procedure, well... you can imagine just how massive his gains from training are going to be.

If he goes from a normal-human power level of 5 to... let's say something in the range of 400 million... just from Gero's modifications alone and no training whatsoever, that means every single power level point he gains through training equals an increase of a whopping EIGHTY MILLION to his enhanced power level. If he trained to a point where his "natural" power level rose into the teens, he'd be rapidly approaching the 1 billion mark. Training hard like Goku and Krillin did back at the beginning of Dragonball would probably push him ahead of Super Perfect Cell. Hell, maybe he's trained with Korin since if I'm remembering right the park he watches over is located not far from his tower -- that would push him into the realm of Buu Saga characters for sure. After that, years of gradual increases from the infamous "mountain training" is all he'd really need to surpass SSj3 level. And if he learns regular ki control techniques instead of relying entirely on Gero's enhancements and starts mixing meditation/image training/etc. in with the purely physical methods, all bets are off -- if he was able to raise his "natural" power level up to the 430 mark like beginning-of-Z Goku and Piccolo, he'd end up with an "enhanced" level of more than 33 BILLION. And we know for a fact that regular human martial artists can reach the 400-some mark, every single one of the human fighters (even lazy-ass Yajirobe and weak-ass Chiaotzu! hell, even Roshi suddenly pulled power at least on that level out of his ass!) had far surpassed that level years ago.

#17 only has to get his "natural" level as high as Saiyan Saga Krillin to get into the hundred-billions.
I never thought of it this way, thanks for coming up with a well constructed theory I can get behind!
And thanks to the OP for creating this topic in the first place ^_^
This theory makes a lot of sense I like it. and training for 13 years would make sense to yield massive gains. But at the same time, in terms of DBS, 80 million doesn't exactly mean that much. Goku could is easily in the quadrillions at this point(probably quintillions) and 17 would have to get his "natural" state to be atleast a billion in order for that to be enough to compete with SSB. going from 5 -> 1B is still a rather egregious boost.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:he god forms are, at most, only a few thousand times stronger than the previous strongest in the universe, Majin Buu
Oh, honey.

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun May 20, 2018 6:20 pm

PFM18 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:he god forms are, at most, only a few thousand times stronger than the previous strongest in the universe, Majin Buu
Oh, honey.
I'm serious. Think about it.

If you take the guidebook multipliers for the regular Super Saiyan forms and assume that Goku and Vegeta are around the strength of Majin Buu in base form, you'd easily have the god forms only being tens of times stronger than their regular forms, be comfortably above SS Vegito from the Buu Arc, AND allow Potara Fusions to surpass even SSG in base form.

But this little bit is only tangentially related to the main topic; it's only in reference to the gap not being as astronomically huge as people think.

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PFM18 » Sun May 20, 2018 6:29 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:he god forms are, at most, only a few thousand times stronger than the previous strongest in the universe, Majin Buu
Oh, honey.
I'm serious. Think about it.

If you take the guidebook multipliers for the regular Super Saiyan forms and assume that Goku and Vegeta are around the strength of Majin Buu in base form, you'd easily have the god forms only being tens of times stronger than their regular forms, be comfortably above SS Vegito from the Buu Arc, AND allow Potara Fusions to surpass even SSG in base form.

But this little bit is only tangentially related to the main topic; it's only in reference to the gap not being as astronomically huge as people think.
See your first problem is that you assume that the Saiyans are as strong as Buu in their base form. Buu's strength has been dwarfed ever since the infusion of power happened during BoG/Whis training happened. I am not one that believes that Base Goku>SSG Goku from BoG, but I still think the differene between Goku's SSJ3 in the Buu Arc and his current Base form in the ToP is atleast 10,000x. SSG was far beyond even a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto when it showed up, and their base forms are atleast somewhat close to that level. Goku said he never could have reached that level on his own, and that he didn't even know that a level of power that high could even exist.

This is relevant to the topic because the gap between 17 in the Cell Saga and current 17 in the ToP is absolutely astronomical and several magnitudes higher than "A couple thousand times stronger than Buu." This gap being so large is why people have so much trouble rationalizing it

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by Meshack » Mon May 21, 2018 4:10 pm

No. 17 says in the recent chapter that he got so strong by just protecting his island.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by theherodjl » Mon May 21, 2018 4:40 pm

Meshack wrote:No. 17 says in the recent chapter that he got so strong by just protecting his island.
So by the manga's interpretation: Android 17 doesn't actually train in the way of Goku & Vegeta, but merely defends the island from weaklings with guns & vehicles.
We all might as well just accept the fact that 17 is the real Broly of U7; In that his power just constantly rises by simply existing.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by Meshack » Mon May 21, 2018 4:52 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Meshack wrote:No. 17 says in the recent chapter that he got so strong by just protecting his island.
So by the manga's interpretation: Android 17 doesn't actually train in the way of Goku & Vegeta, but merely defends the island from weaklings with guns & vehicles.
We all might as well just accept the fact that 17 is the real Broly of U7; In that his power just constantly rises by simply existing.
It's been hinted that strong people have been on the earth while Gokou and the others were gone. It’s sorta like how Daredevil hasn’t appeared in the MCU yet or Captain America not showing up for Spider-Man's battle against Vulture.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by theherodjl » Mon May 21, 2018 8:55 pm

Meshack wrote:It's been hinted that strong people have been on the earth while Gokou and the others were gone. It’s sorta like how Daredevil hasn’t appeared in the MCU yet or Captain America not showing up for Spider-Man's battle against Vulture.
And 17 probably dispatched them with ease since none of those potential incidents caught the attention of the Z Senshi.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by Meshack » Mon May 21, 2018 11:13 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Meshack wrote:It's been hinted that strong people have been on the earth while Gokou and the others were gone. It’s sorta like how Daredevil hasn’t appeared in the MCU yet or Captain America not showing up for Spider-Man's battle against Vulture.
And 17 probably dispatched them with ease since none of those potential incidents caught the attention of the Z Senshi.
I mean, Freeza continuously punch Tagoma (someone far weaker than Freeza was) repeatedly for four months and got stronger.

Zillamon51
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:30 pm
Location: S.E. Michigan
Contact:

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by Zillamon51 » Tue May 22, 2018 1:56 am

The anime says he trains. That's good enough for me, because his power source is an "infinite energy reactor." If we take that at face value, his energy is literally limitless. He could be stronger than Zeno. But at one point, he was weaker than Cell. That's because his infinite energy is limited by how much his human body can handle at any one time. As he trains, his body gets stronger, and he can handle more.

He started off as a street punk. Not as strong as Mr. Satan, the world's strongest non-powered fighter. Untrained punk + infinite energy reactor = stronger than a Super Saiyan. How much more powerful is Yamcha than Satan? If 17 trained enough to get to Yamcha level, his actual gains would be enormous. Krillin level, even more so. Maybe the attacks of super-strong beings like Buu, Beerus, and Frieza motivated him to train. He could work out every day at the bottom of the ocean. That would be similar to a gravity chamber, no?
"...It’s still going to be the same sort of easy-to-understand content as always." - Akira Toriyama, on transitioning from DBZ to DBS.

"Just repeat to yourself, It's just a show,
I should really just relax..." - MST3K theme song

supercat
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by supercat » Tue May 29, 2018 9:01 pm

There's really nothing odd about Android 17 reaching SSB-tier when you consider the fact that he started off far stronger than some galactic tyrant who was feared throughout the universe along with legendary warriors whose power was seemingly unrivaled at the time.

The way I see it, Android 17 clowning Super Saiyans back in Z is no different than a determined Android 17 reaching SSB-tier.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 30, 2018 12:08 am

supercat wrote:There's really nothing odd about Android 17 reaching SSB-tier when you consider the fact that he started off far stronger than some galactic tyrant who was feared throughout the universe along with legendary warriors whose power was seemingly unrivaled at the time.

The way I see it, Android 17 clowning Super Saiyans back in Z is no different than a determined Android 17 reaching SSB-tier.
It actually is odd. 17 was originally an ordinary, punk teenager named Lapis. Dr. Gero kidnapped him & his sister then turned them into Androids stronger than Freeza. All with the limited technology & supplies of the Red Ribbon Army left in his laboratory. What's even crazier is that he biologically enhanced them to reach ToP potential just from ordinary training. That is both incredibly odd & awfully convenient for the Z Senshi for two would-be villains, originally starting off as Human teens with no power, would just fall into their lap, and prevent the annihilation of their entire universe. What are the odds of that???
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

supercat
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by supercat » Wed May 30, 2018 12:21 am

theherodjl wrote:
supercat wrote:There's really nothing odd about Android 17 reaching SSB-tier when you consider the fact that he started off far stronger than some galactic tyrant who was feared throughout the universe along with legendary warriors whose power was seemingly unrivaled at the time.

The way I see it, Android 17 clowning Super Saiyans back in Z is no different than a determined Android 17 reaching SSB-tier.
It actually is odd. 17 was originally an ordinary, punk teenager named Lapis. Dr. Gero kidnapped him & his sister then turned them into Androids stronger than Freeza. All with the limited technology & supplies of the Red Ribbon Army left in his laboratory. What's even crazier is that he biologically enhanced them to reach ToP potential just from ordinary training. That is both incredibly odd & awfully convenient for the Z Senshi for two would-be villains, originally starting off as Human teens with no power, would just fall into their lap, and prevent the annihilation of their entire universe. What are the odds of that???
Technology seems to have very few boundaries if any at all in Dragon Ball. Gero basically enhanced himself into a being that was arguably stronger than the original Frieza, while Bulma can create machines that can outdo the abilities of beings like Beerus and Whis. Then there's the Frieza Force's rejuvenating capabilities...

Bottom line is, Android 17's new advancements probably turned him into a prodigy of some sort. Given how his base power far eclipses Frieza's, it's expected of him to make as much progress as he did through training. If Android 17 didn't reach SSB-tier, I would find it quite odd given how much potential he likely has.

The best part about his power up was how it was likely obtained through training that was far less intense than anything Goku and Vegeta had undergone. Imagine if Android 17 did exactly what Goku and Vegeta did in terms of training; he would have flat-out humiliated Destroyer Toppo.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 30, 2018 12:50 am

supercat wrote:Technology seems to have very few boundaries if any at all in Dragon Ball. Gero basically enhanced himself into a being that was arguably stronger than the original Frieza, while Bulma can create machines that can outdo the abilities of beings like Beerus and Whis. Then there's the Frieza Force's rejuvenating capabilities...

Bottom line is, Android 17's new advancements probably turned him into a prodigy of some sort. Given how his base power far eclipses Frieza's, it's expected of him to make as much progress as he did through training. If Android 17 didn't reach SSB-tier, I would find it quite odd given how much potential he likely has.

The best part about his power up was how it was likely obtained through training that was far less intense than anything Goku and Vegeta had undergone. Imagine if Android 17 did exactly what Goku and Vegeta did in terms of training; he would have flat-out humiliated Destroyer Toppo.
And how does less advanced technology from the Earth somehow surpass Dr. Myuu's technology in raw power? Or the scientific combination of Drs. Gero & Myuu??? Also, when did Bulma ever make machines with abilities greater than Beerus & Whis? Greater than a Hakaishin & Angel?
People in DB don't just become prodigies. They have to already be prodigies, but just never knew it. 17's biological additions would give him advantages that ordinary beings do not have, but why does that translate to "His power should obviously progress to ToP levels"?
That's the issue. How does a Human, possessing some biological upgrades, not only surpass the power ups of prodigious Saiyans with nigh-limitless potential, but also get ToP-strong, that fast? 17 evidently got killed in the Majin Boo arc so he wasn't stronger than Boo by that time. Its a bigger copout than Freeza's RoF strength gain because 17 cannot even transform.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
PsionicWarrior
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1569
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed May 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Ah the narrative can basically do anything if it keeps coherent,
What I'd rather ask is, if they could make a forgotten char like 17 so strong why is super popular Piccolo still so weak lol

User avatar
p-hyvo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:56 am
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Why IS Android 17 So Strong???

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:53 am

plot needed him to be that strong, simple.
lol

Post Reply