Does A Filler Scene Confirm That SSJ Goku Is Stronger Than Base Gotenks?

[theherodjl]

Remember the filler scene in the last few episodes of DBZ; in which Goku, Goten, & Trunks are bathing in a large makeshift tub after the defeat of Majin Boo? They get into a game of horsing around which leads to Goten & Trunks using the fusion dance, forming Gotenks, then wrestling around until Goku goes SSJ. Gotenks is sent flying out of the tub with a look of defeated awe on his face while SSJ Goku seemingly stands triumphant (in the nude, mind you) thus signaling the end of that bout. Does this actually hold up in comparison to what was seen only some days earlier in the battle with Boo? Is this proof that a base fusion formed with the fusion dance is not greater than the 50x boost of SSJ?

[ToshioWrites]

Filler scenes mean absolutely nothing.

It’s been a long time since I read the original manga but wasn’t there a filler scene in the anime of base goku vs ultimate Gohan inside of Buu and doing decently well?

[theherodjl]

Filler scenes mean absolutely nothing.

It’s been a long time since I read the original manga but wasn’t there a filler scene in the anime of base goku vs ultimate Gohan inside of Buu and doing decently well?

They're inconsistent, sure. However, they did/do occur so they can't just be treated as if they never happened.

That filler scene you're thinking can just be explained as Boo's fluctuating emotions changing up the strengths of the original fighters.

[ToshioWrites]

Filler scenes mean absolutely nothing.

It’s been a long time since I read the original manga but wasn’t there a filler scene in the anime of base goku vs ultimate Gohan inside of Buu and doing decently well?

They're inconsistent, sure. However, they did/do occur so they can't just be treated as if they never happened.

That filler scene you're thinking can just be explained as Boo's fluctuating emotions changing up the strengths of the original fighters.

For Db and DBZ filler scenes can be discounted atleast for me. If its not in the manga i just ignore it in terms of debates and stuff.

[theherodjl]

For Db and DBZ filler scenes can be discounted atleast for me. If its not in the manga i just ignore it in terms of debates and stuff.

Regardless, there is an actual feat of SSJ Goku overpowering Base Gotenks which doesn't seem to be contradicted here.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gotenks didn't surpass Vegeta prior to going into the Rosat as stated in the Daizenshuu and he's stated to be weaker than Grey Boo by Piccolo before the Rosat. It doesn't really take extreme comprehensive ability to deduce that Goku as a Super Saiyan is stronger than Base Gotenks even without that scene.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No, because it contradicts every single thing the manga has shown. Even SSJ2 Goku would be flatten by Base Gotenks pre Rosat. Post Rosat Base Gotenks makes even SSJ3 Goku look like a joke, let alone SSJ Goku.

Not to mention even the SSJ Kids themselves were on Goku's league, and Base Gotenks is obviously far above the kids.

[theherodjl]

No, because it contradicts every single thing the manga has shown. Even SSJ2 Goku would be flatten by Base Gotenks pre Rosat. Post Rosat Base Gotenks makes even SSJ3 Goku look like a joke, let alone SSJ Goku.

Not to mention even the SSJ Kids themselves were on Goku's league, and Base Gotenks is obviously far above the kids.

Is there anything that proves that Base Gotenks is stronger than their SSJ fathers? Gotenks is extraordinarily arrogant against foes; he actually thought he could defeat Boo(and failed miserably) in base form. All we know about Gotenks' post-ROSAT strength is that he powered up by a great deal according to Piccolo. There was never any comparison by anyone else besides Trunks, an 8 year old with an imagination, that Base Gotenks had surpassed their SSJ fathers by far.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is there anything that proves that Base Gotenks is stronger than their SSJ fathers? Gotenks is extraordinarily arrogant against foes; he actually thought he could defeat Boo(and failed miserably) in base form. All we know about Gotenks' post-ROSAT strength is that he powered up by a great deal according to Piccolo. There was never any comparison by anyone else besides Trunks, an 8 year old with an imagination, that Base Gotenks had surpassed their SSJ fathers by far.

I think he should be at least as strong as SSJ Goku here. The reason i say this is because of the own defition of fusion given by Goku:
Goku: “In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of.”

So, Base Gotenks is a power Goten and Trunks absolutely shouldn't be capable of, what includes their Super Saiyan forms. It's heavily implied Trunks and Goten are on Gohan's tier, and Gohan was a option for Goku to fuse. So, Base Gotenks being >> the SSJ Kids would result on Base Gotenks being on the top of FPSSJ tier.

Though i think Gotenks is even stronger than FPSSJ Tier, given how his power was portrayed. Gotenks thinks he can beat Boo and is supported by Yamcha and Kuririn. Of course, Gotenks was proven to be awfuly wrong, but mind you both Goten and Trunks saw Vegeta getting bent over by Boo. Trunks even admited Vegeta was going to die if he fought alone:
Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!”

Sure Gotenks is cocky, but he's no retarded. I think Piccolo could've also compared Gotenks's power to Vegeta's if they were comparable, or if Vegeta was stronger. Saying something like "Even Vegeta was no match for him, let alone you!", instead, Piccolo only says that albeit incredible, Gotenks is no match. I think even Gotenks being considered incredible on a time where SSJ3 Tiers like Fat Boo were around really implies SSJ2 is no match for him.

[Tectorman]

Is there anything that proves that Base Gotenks is stronger than their SSJ fathers? Gotenks is extraordinarily arrogant against foes; he actually thought he could defeat Boo(and failed miserably) in base form. All we know about Gotenks' post-ROSAT strength is that he powered up by a great deal according to Piccolo. There was never any comparison by anyone else besides Trunks, an 8 year old with an imagination, that Base Gotenks had surpassed their SSJ fathers by far.

I think he should be at least as strong as SSJ Goku here. The reason i say this is because of the own defition of fusion given by Goku:
Goku: “In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of.”

So, Base Gotenks is a power Goten and Trunks absolutely shouldn't be capable of, what includes their Super Saiyan forms. It's heavily implied Trunks and Goten are on Gohan's tier, and Gohan was a option for Goku to fuse. So, Base Gotenks being >> the SSJ Kids would result on Base Gotenks being on the top of FPSSJ tier.

I don't think that's how Goku's quote is meant to be taken. By the time he says this, he is already aware that the boys can use SSJ, and his first lesson on fusion was having the two of them match power levels as SSJs. So I think we can safely say he knows how strong they're capable of being (SSJ), he intends them to fuse as SSJs, and the resulting SSJ fusion (though not necessarily the Base fusion) would be far beyond what they're capable of on their own.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I don't think that's how Goku's quote is meant to be taken. By the time he says this, he is already aware that the boys can use SSJ, and his first lesson on fusion was having the two of them match power levels as SSJs. So I think we can safely say he knows how strong they're capable of being (SSJ), he intends them to fuse as SSJs, and the resulting SSJ fusion (though not necessarily the Base fusion) would be far beyond what they're capable of on their own.

He wasn't refering to the boys fusing though. He didn't even know they could fuse yet. He's just giving the definition of fusion.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, that's kind of a needlessly extreme stretch of what Goku said. Doesn't have to be anything more than a general "Gotenks is way stronger than either Goten or Trunks on their own."

[Tectorman]

I don't think that's how Goku's quote is meant to be taken. By the time he says this, he is already aware that the boys can use SSJ, and his first lesson on fusion was having the two of them match power levels as SSJs. So I think we can safely say he knows how strong they're capable of being (SSJ), he intends them to fuse as SSJs, and the resulting SSJ fusion (though not necessarily the Base fusion) would be far beyond what they're capable of on their own.

He wasn't refering to the boys fusing though. He didn't even know they could fuse yet. He's just giving the definition of fusion.

Even so, we can still go by what he did have in mind at the time, that being the Metamoreans who taught him fusion in the afterlife, and the hypothetical fusion he would have done with Gohan or Vegeta. The Metamoreans, as far as we know, don't have a SSJ-like transformation to compare the fusion to (and even if they did, presumably the comparison would be between their transformed state and the transformed state of the fused being). And his hypothetical Gokan or Gogeta fusion would be SSJ on top of being fused, just like the boys'.

Point is, we have plenty of basis for saying the total fusion outclasses what the fusees can do on their own, but no basis for saying the Base fusion outclasses any individual transformation the fusees might have.