Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

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Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:24 pm

Do you think Grade 4 Ssj has a higher multiplier than Grade 1 Ssj? I do believe that. If you say Yes, then we're at an agreement. If you say No, then explain why.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:32 pm

No. Super Saiyan always had a 50x multiplier. The point of Goku and Gohan's training was to remove some "side-effects" of the transformation and to have more control over the form, but its boost remains the same.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:43 pm

Grimlock wrote:No. Super Saiyan always had a 50x multiplier. The point of Goku and Gohan's training was to remove some "side-effects" of the transformation and to have more control over the form, but its boost remains the same.
Why wouldn't Grade 4 have a higher boost than Grade 1? What is there that disregards this point? Grade 4 removes stamina issues and strain, no arguing that. But what is there that disregards the "higher boost" point?
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:51 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Grimlock wrote:No. Super Saiyan always had a 50x multiplier. The point of Goku and Gohan's training was to remove some "side-effects" of the transformation and to have more control over the form, but its boost remains the same.
Why wouldn't Grade 4 have a higher boost than Grade 1? What is there that disregards this point? Grade 4 removes stamina issues and strain, no arguing that. But what is there that disregards the "higher boost" point?
Mainly how SS Grade 4 isn't treated as a fundamentally different kind of form from regular SS; far from it. It's treated from that point on as basically regular SS, with SS2 being a follow-up to it acting as SS1 as a whole.

By removing the stamina strain, you free up energy that would've been wasted due to the drain on your body for combat, allowing you to put out more of your full-power and letting you fight harder; doing this also means that one can make greater gains from training, as gaining full control over the regular Super Saiyan form allows you to train harder in a higher state of power.

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:39 pm

I don't think so. The point of "Grade 4" was to get rid of the restless feeling of the Super Saiyan, making it more effective for combat and training. It's focused on balance, not power as Goku describes (Panels 4 and 5):
This is also supported by the Guidebook that labeled the forms in Grades:
Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Kaboom » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:39 pm

Nope. It's the same original, roughly-50x boost that Super Saiyan's always been.

It's not a matter of "nothing disproves it," on the contrary it's that there's actually no strong evidence for it. There's actually nothing outside of the old "Grade 4" numbering itself to even suggest that mastering Super Saiyan makes the form intrinsically stronger or its "multiplier" greater. All dialogue and supplementary descriptions merely describe it as regular Super Saiyan, simply conditioned to come naturally and reduce stress. Heck, half the time the mastered version isn't even treated or labeled as anything different from regular Super Saiyan in the first place.

Goku's entire point in doing this was to do more with less. "We'll stick with regular Super Saiyan, because trying to pump it up with extra power works against us." What'd be the point of saying that if the end result was just pumping up Super Saiyan anyway?

Using the mastered form does help make you stronger, but not on its own. Turns out being able to stay as a Super Saiyan indefinitely like that makes for a fantastic boon to one's training. That factor, along with the conditions of the Time Room and sparring with Gohan, is what the Super Exciting Guides described as the driving forces in Goku's Cell-arc training. So in the end, he just got so much stronger overall that he and Gohan totally eclipsed everyone else, even though they were sticking to a "weaker" form.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Tectorman » Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:15 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Grimlock wrote:No. Super Saiyan always had a 50x multiplier. The point of Goku and Gohan's training was to remove some "side-effects" of the transformation and to have more control over the form, but its boost remains the same.
Why wouldn't Grade 4 have a higher boost than Grade 1? What is there that disregards this point? Grade 4 removes stamina issues and strain, no arguing that. But what is there that disregards the "higher boost" point?
Mainly how SS Grade 4 isn't treated as a fundamentally different kind of form from regular SS; far from it. It's treated from that point on as basically regular SS, with SS2 being a follow-up to it acting as SS1 as a whole.

By removing the stamina strain, you free up energy that would've been wasted due to the drain on your body for combat, allowing you to put out more of your full-power and letting you fight harder; doing this also means that one can make greater gains from training, as gaining full control over the regular Super Saiyan form allows you to train harder in a higher state of power.
See, that's how I've always thought of it, except I do think it results in G4 being a larger effective boost than G1 (emphasis on "effective"). When Goku and Gohan decide to focus on SSJ as opposed to the Grade forms, his cited reason is to get rid of a so-called "restless feeling" with the intention of making SSJ as easy as their natural states.

I liken that to Mystique from X-Men First Class. During the training montage, we see her appearing human and lifting a barbell. Magneto gets onto her for dividing her focus. "If you're concentrating on looking human, then you're only half paying attention to the task at hand." He then drops the weight on her, she goes back to her natural form, and she catches the weights with much less difficulty than she had been showing before.

Translating that to DBZ, G1 is them using SSJ, but having to concentrate on maintaining the transformation. The transformation itself is a x50 boost, just like it always is, but the fact that they can't maintain the transformation without concentrating on it means they don't get the benefit of the full x50, but only x30 (well, x30-ish; I think it needs to be a better boost than the Kaioken x20, but it can really be anywhere in that x20 to x50 range; I picked x30 just for ease of use). So G1 is a x50 boost, but it's a x50 boost with a x3/5 drain due to them having to actively maintain the form. G4 is still only x50, but they don't have to consciously maintain the form, so there's no x3/5 drain.

"But what about Namek? Didn't he go from 3 million to 150 million?" Yes, he did. And that is a x50 boost. BUT, he wasn't using SSJ at will. SSJ occurs when the Saiyan has a pure heart awakened by pure rage, and Goku had just witnessed Krillin being killed. So he wasn't doing any kind of concentrating to maintain the form, because he didn't need to; Goku was already as genuinely angry as he needed to be. A "Grade 0", if you will, a form with a x50 boost, just like always, but no drain from concentrating. It's when he's learning how to use SSJ on Yardrat that the "concentrating drain" comes into play.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by BlueVegerot » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:21 pm

No. SSJ grade 4 is just goku and gohan getting used to ssj form and reducing its stamina drain. Their strength comes from sparring together for months worth of time in the ROSAT while vegeta and trunks punched and kicked the air.

Essentially goku and gohans base forms far surpassed vegeta and trunks so even in normal ssj they had power beyond grade 2 and grade 3 vegeta and trunks. (which are actual power boosts in exchange for speed). If goku/gohan had used grade 2 and 3 vs cell, they would have had even more raw power than in ssj grade 4 but the stamina/speed drain would have made it useless

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Saturnine » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:51 am

Oh boy, this one again :D

I see some problems with treating G4 as not any stronger than G1. First off, that would make G2 the preferable choice at all times, given its extra power compared to regular SSj, and yet Goku never used it against Cell and claimed to have gone all-out. G2 is discarded even though its disadvantages are not at all crippling and it would offer a substantial boost in power.

Next, that would make SSj2's supposed 2x multiplier completely unwieldy, as it would be roughly in the same ballpark as G2 then, and not considered such a big deal plot-wise. I know many put it down to a specifically larger multiplier in Gohan's instance due to rage, but that is still debated.

Third, G4 is the first time we see an SSj modify their power freely, and in the manga the powering-up aura is drawn identically to the G2 aura. That suggests that a G4 is able to access a deeper power than a G1. It's well-enough demonstrated when Goku powers up at Karin's. He had never been able to do that before.

Fourth, SSj2 was portrayed as both stronger and faster than G3, and if it's only 2x stronger than G1 then there's very little room for it to be so. For G3 to remain inferior to SSj2, it would have to only be like 1,5x G1, which feels awfully undervalued.

I think G4 was meant to convey a power at least equivalent to G2, which it replaced so entirely, though personally I used to like to think it had all the G3 power in it. These days I'm not so sure, but I believe a G2 multiplier for the Cell Games arc would be fair (and SSj2 being 2x on top of that). That makes a 75-100x multi for G4 at the Cell Games.

If this bothers you, you could combine it with the once-popular "diminishing multiplier" theory and assume that the multiplier slowly decreased once the Saiyans got stronger, settling at 50x again. Of course the Kili system suggests it was just 5x in the Buu arc, but that's a whole other topic for debate :p

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Desassina » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:07 am

It doesn't have a greater multiplier, because SSJ is a transformation and not Kaioken, but it does wield more power due to no applied strain. If Goku and Gohan want to power up, then they won't have bulked up, lost their speed or put a cap on their energy, but accomplished the full extent of it in a natural looking form. With that being said, the Grades are merely shortcuts, because once you have accomplished full power, SSJ2 becomes available and the need to ascend is gone, but they can still swap changing forms with something better: the Elder Kaioshin ritual. The Ultimate state mirrors full power in comparison to Gohan's base and Goku's SSJ. Notice how Gohan went from Goku's SSJ2 level up to Blue, or how the latter powered up to half in front of Korin, and then all the way up against Cell. There's no multiplier, a fixed one even less, but a range of power.

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:23 pm

G4 has the same multiplier as G1, but it's MUCH more effective.

G1: x50 boost to stats, but causes a drop in combat ability because it requires concentration just to stay on while also causing emotional disruption.
G2: greater than x50 boost to stats, has the same issues as G1 but also a greater stamina consumption
G3: ~x100 boost to power stats, same issues as the G2 but the stamina cost is greater AND it lowers the speed and agility
G4: x50 boost to stats, but removes most side effects letting the user fully concentrate on the fight, minimizing stamina drain(which means one can use more power tiring less) and removing the emotional instability which could affect some combat abilities.

Basically: G1~3 make you stronger but a worst fighter. G4 make you stronger AND leaves your martial ability untouched.

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by sintzu » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:48 pm

As far as I know the "grade 4" name came form some guidebook as in the anime and manga Goku clearly says they're (him and Gohan) are in their regular Ssj form. What makes it different like what everyone above have said is that no or very little power and stamina is wasted while transforming and holding the form so by mastering it they're getting more out of it, despite there not being an actual power boost.

If the form is a 50× boost to the saiyan's base then it could be brought down to 45× just by the amount of power it takes to power up while wasting even more as a fight goes on which could bring it down as low as 35× for an untrined Saiyan. What Goku managed to do was keep it at that 50× boost at all or most of the time.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:02 pm

Grade 4 doesn't have a greater multiplier than Grade 1. Grade 4 is just a mastery of stamina for Grade 1. The grades are based on the Trunks comics. It was also described in the Daizenshuu 7 and GT Perfect files. Herms translated most of the information here: viewtopic.php?t=22411
Super Saiyan Grade Two
A Super Saiyan that has surpassed the limits of Super Saiyan: that's Grade Two! Muscles are even larger than in Grade One, with power and speed raised as well! The shape of the Super Saiyan's trademark upright hair is also even more combative. When Vegeta underwent this transformation during his battle with second stage Cell, he called himself "Super Vegeta".
Super Saiyan Grade Three
A Super Saiyan with overwhelming power that far surpasses even Grade Two! But the enlarged muscles get in the way and kill speed. In other words, it could be called a transformation that relies too much on power. Another flaw is that its energy consumption is too intense.
Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:56 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:Grade 4 doesn't have a greater multiplier than Grade 1. Grade 4 is just a mastery of stamina for Grade 1. The grades are based on the Trunks comics. It was also described in the Daizenshuu 7 and GT Perfect files. Herms translated most of the information here: viewtopic.php?t=22411
Super Saiyan Grade Two
A Super Saiyan that has surpassed the limits of Super Saiyan: that's Grade Two! Muscles are even larger than in Grade One, with power and speed raised as well! The shape of the Super Saiyan's trademark upright hair is also even more combative. When Vegeta underwent this transformation during his battle with second stage Cell, he called himself "Super Vegeta".
Super Saiyan Grade Three
A Super Saiyan with overwhelming power that far surpasses even Grade Two! But the enlarged muscles get in the way and kill speed. In other words, it could be called a transformation that relies too much on power. Another flaw is that its energy consumption is too intense.
Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!
DID YOU NOT WATCH Seth's video? OBVIOUSLY Grade 4 is a 500x base multiplier. He even proved it!!!!

I agree. Good post

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by Kaboom » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:58 pm

Yeah, the mastered Super Saiyan isn't inherently stronger, like in "multiplier" terms, than the regular non-mastered version. But its other advantages still make it worthy of being ranked higher as "Grade 4" over the limited-usefulness Grade 2 and totally-useless Grade 3.
PFM18 wrote:OBVIOUSLY Grade 4 is a 500x base multiplier.
Let me guess... that comes primarily from that "Legendario" book and its "Grade 3 is a 10x boost" baloney that people keep latching onto for some reason?
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:DID YOU NOT WATCH Seth's video? OBVIOUSLY Grade 4 is a 500x base multiplier. He even proved it!!!!

I agree. Good post
Wow, he's that bad? I've never actually watched any of his power scaling videos, but I heard about him.

On a side note, I do believe that the SS Rage form is a combination of utilizing SSJ2 with Grade 3. I think that it is in fact, just a higher grade of SSJ2. While Goku and Vegeta are working on mastery of SSB, they find previous forms obsolete. However, Trunks has only been using SSJ2 for a long time fighting Black. This allowed his SSJ2 to be equal or greater than Goku's SSJ3. In addition, Trunks powered up due to an increase in Yuki (courage), a component of ki when facing Black. Though this random transformation never appears in the manga.
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:27 pm

On a side note, I do believe that the SS Rage form is a combination of utilizing SSJ2 with Grade 3. I think that it is in fact, just a higher grade of SSJ2. While Goku and Vegeta are working on mastery of SSB, they find previous forms obsolete. However, Trunks has only been using SSJ2 for a long time fighting Black. This allowed his SSJ2 to be equal or greater than Goku's SSJ3. In addition, Trunks powered up due to an increase in Yuki (courage), a component of ki when facing Black. Though this random transformation never appears in the manga.
This seems rational enough. Unfortunately, we have to come up with things like this in order to rationalize the transformation. It'd be nice if a guide came out and explained it

I think it is worth noting that Trunks is a hybrid saiyan and there is a precedent for hybrid Saiyans gaining large boosts or even transformations when they are extremely angry.

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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by PFM18 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:27 pm

Kaboom wrote:Yeah, the mastered Super Saiyan isn't inherently stronger, like in "multiplier" terms, than the regular non-mastered version. But its other advantages still make worthy of being ranked higher as "Grade 4" over the limited-usefulness Grade 2 and totally-useless Grade 3.
PFM18 wrote:OBVIOUSLY Grade 4 is a 500x base multiplier.
Let me guess... that comes primarily from that "Legendario" book and its "Grade 3 is a 10x boost" baloney that people keep latching onto for some reason?
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Re: Does Grade 4 Super Saiyan have a greater multiplier than Grade 1 Super Saiyan?

Post by shadowfox87 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:32 pm

If people want to use the Legendario book for Grade 3, be my guest, but what does that have anything to do with Grade 4? It's clear to me that the power boost granted by Grade 3 is quite large, perhaps exceeding SSJ2, but the loss of speed makes the form not suitable for fighting. In Broly's case, his speed class is known as "ultra first class". This comes from the same source as the grades - Trunks anime comic.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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