Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
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Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
After watching MistareFusion Cell Saga DBD and reading soe posts, quite few people assume, that Future Trunks words "They are not that strong in my time" were true, but, is that really true? 17 told Gohan he used 50% last time they fought, they could hold back against Trunks too, he was only "toy" they had left. in our timeline, Goku wasnt dead yet, so 17 and 18 had no reason to hold back or go to slow rampage, since their primal objective was still alive.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
If it was only Trunks, a fallible in-universe character, who seemed to believe that the past Androids were stronger... then while there'd still really be nothing against it, it'd at least be plausible and a good theory that he was simply mistaken because the future Androids had always been holding back on him.
But at least one or two guidebook sources do plainly confirm, independently from any in-universe ignorance, that the past Androids really were stronger. So officially, there's not really any ambiguity about it.
But at least one or two guidebook sources do plainly confirm, independently from any in-universe ignorance, that the past Androids really were stronger. So officially, there's not really any ambiguity about it.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Also Gohan was comfortably stronger than "just under 50% 17" and presumably stronger than that + "however strong he thought 18 had been up till then"
That Trunks was set to soon suprass him too. We see trunks later long enough for that to have been the case. I don't see why people can't take it at face value.
That Trunks was set to soon suprass him too. We see trunks later long enough for that to have been the case. I don't see why people can't take it at face value.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Apparently. Usually you can chalk up stuff like that to time travel, tiny changes from Trunks going in time, and then tiny changes from when Cell was buried underground for 4 years affected Seventeen and Eighteen when they were created. Or, you can subscribe to DBM's thoughts on the matter, a lack of routine repairs reduced the Androids' power. Either way, current timeline Androids are stronger.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Somehow Cell traveling to the past affected the timeline so that the Androids were much stronger. No one can really explain why. Essentially, even small changes in the past can cause ripples in time that can lead to bigger changes. This is what is known as the "butterfly effect". Trunks himself states after he finds out that Cell traveled 1 year before he did why the history has changed so much. The first change was that Dr. Gero and Android 19 attacked South City instead of 17 and 18. The second change was that they were much stronger. He was convinced that 2 Super Saiyans could defeat 17 and 18. The only reason Future Gohan couldn't is because it was always 2 vs 1. Then he lost an arm and Trunks couldn't turn SSJ. The other thing is that Trunks couldn't sense the ki of Androids 17 and 18, so he didn't really know how strong they really were. It's possible that they were always this strong but were never challenged enough. They kept Gohan and Trunks around for entertainment. In the Daizenshuu 7 though, it does say that the future androids were inferior in power.
Source: Daizenshuu 7
Source: Daizenshuu 7
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
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Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Trunks believed the future androids were weaker in power to the present androids but we doesn’t make sense considering Trunks never experienced their full power. Daizenshuu does say they are somewhat inferior in power but be sceptical.
(P.S. They’re not cyborgs. Yes there were once human but that’s the thing - they were humans. Bulma stated in Super they were changed at the cellular level. No. 17 & No. 18 were used as projects by Dr. Gero and he made them into robots. Vegeta, at the end of the comic before the 28th Tenkaichi-Budoukai, didn’t even consider the an android and an Earthling the same thing when talking about Oob.)
(P.S. They’re not cyborgs. Yes there were once human but that’s the thing - they were humans. Bulma stated in Super they were changed at the cellular level. No. 17 & No. 18 were used as projects by Dr. Gero and he made them into robots. Vegeta, at the end of the comic before the 28th Tenkaichi-Budoukai, didn’t even consider the an android and an Earthling the same thing when talking about Oob.)
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
I remember hearing secondhand that Toriyama apparently clarified that 17 and 18 from Future Trunks's timeline weren't actually weaker than their main timeline counterparts, they just never had any need to use their full power.
I don't know if this is true or not, so if anyone who knows their sources better can confirm/deny, it'd be appreciated.
I don't know if this is true or not, so if anyone who knows their sources better can confirm/deny, it'd be appreciated.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
I'd say Cell traveling to the past changed things through butterfly effect.
This somehow caused Dr. Gero to use slightly different settings when building 17&18:
Future Gero probably did altered more their brains to make them better Red Ribbon soldiers\killers, but gave them a slightly lower power-level(either as a safety measure or because he spent more time on their brains and less on their energy systems).
Present Gero, viceversa, altered less their brains but gave them a greater power. This caused them to be classified as "failures", so Gero made #19 and turned himself into a cyborg.
This difference explains Future #17&18 being weaker than the Present ones. It's also worth of notice Trunks never experienced the full power of Future#17&18, and they told Future Gohan they were just playing with them.
So the difference in power, while being there, is probably lower than what Trunks believed.
This somehow caused Dr. Gero to use slightly different settings when building 17&18:
Future Gero probably did altered more their brains to make them better Red Ribbon soldiers\killers, but gave them a slightly lower power-level(either as a safety measure or because he spent more time on their brains and less on their energy systems).
Present Gero, viceversa, altered less their brains but gave them a greater power. This caused them to be classified as "failures", so Gero made #19 and turned himself into a cyborg.
This difference explains Future #17&18 being weaker than the Present ones. It's also worth of notice Trunks never experienced the full power of Future#17&18, and they told Future Gohan they were just playing with them.
So the difference in power, while being there, is probably lower than what Trunks believed.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
There's no such clarification. Toriyama never stated that. His last interview on the subject is here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ll-arc-06/PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I remember hearing secondhand that Toriyama apparently clarified that 17 and 18 from Future Trunks's timeline weren't actually weaker than their main timeline counterparts, they just never had any need to use their full power.
I don't know if this is true or not, so if anyone who knows their sources better can confirm/deny, it'd be appreciated.
He only stated that since Androids are partially human, that they can get stronger with training.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707
Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
But are those guidebooks saying that independently, or is that what they decided to go with because of the only in-universe comparison given, that of the fallible Trunks who certainly could be operating on faulty information?Kaboom wrote:If it was only Trunks, a fallible in-universe character, who seemed to believe that the past Androids were stronger... then while there'd still really be nothing against it, it'd at least be plausible and a good theory that he was simply mistaken because the future Androids had always been holding back on him.
But at least one or two guidebook sources do plainly confirm, independently from any in-universe ignorance, and the past Androids really were stronger. So officially, there's not really any ambiguity about it.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
My personal theory for explaining why the power difference between the Androids happened is that while Gero didn't get any samples or battle data from anybody post the Saiyan Saga, he kept an eye on their battle powers and adjusted the Androids accordingly. Thus, in the altered Z timeline we watched, the Androids got much stronger as a reaction to everybody training for their arrival.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Yes. Trunks said three times that the twins from the present were stronger than their in universe counterparts. If he was supposed to be mistaken, it would've been pointed out by someone that he's wrong. 17's entry on the Daizenshuu 17 confirms this as it says his and 18's future counterparts are the weaker ones.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Gero never actually said he observed anything past the Saiyan arc in the main timeline as well.KBABZ wrote:My personal theory for explaining why the power difference between the Androids happened is that while Gero didn't get any samples or battle data from anybody post the Saiyan Saga, he kept an eye on their battle powers and adjusted the Androids accordingly. Thus, in the altered Z timeline we watched, the Androids got much stronger as a reaction to everybody training for their arrival.
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Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Daizenshuu only records data based on what the series says.GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Yes. Trunks said three times that the twins from the present were stronger than their in universe counterparts. If he was supposed to be mistaken, it would've been pointed out by someone that he's wrong. 17's entry on the Daizenshuu 17 confirms this as it says his and 18's future counterparts are the weaker ones.
Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?
Look I don't know if the Android's are stronger in the future or not my guess is that they are the same strength, and they never bothered to use their full strength on a 13 year old and a one armed man. What I want to bring up is if a.t. isn't writing these guidebooks why are we still following them?