Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
coola
I Live Here
Posts: 3360
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:33 am
Location: Poland

Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by coola » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:18 pm

After watching MistareFusion Cell Saga DBD and reading soe posts, quite few people assume, that Future Trunks words "They are not that strong in my time" were true, but, is that really true? 17 told Gohan he used 50% last time they fought, they could hold back against Trunks too, he was only "toy" they had left. in our timeline, Goku wasnt dead yet, so 17 and 18 had no reason to hold back or go to slow rampage, since their primal objective was still alive.
My Twitter: @kamil198811
Bulma fan
Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas get DVD release in 2015

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14373
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by Kaboom » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:27 pm

If it was only Trunks, a fallible in-universe character, who seemed to believe that the past Androids were stronger... then while there'd still really be nothing against it, it'd at least be plausible and a good theory that he was simply mistaken because the future Androids had always been holding back on him.

But at least one or two guidebook sources do plainly confirm, independently from any in-universe ignorance, that the past Androids really were stronger. So officially, there's not really any ambiguity about it.
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader
ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone")
(Not) lost (enough) DB Super plots!
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by TobyS » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:33 pm

Also Gohan was comfortably stronger than "just under 50% 17" and presumably stronger than that + "however strong he thought 18 had been up till then"

That Trunks was set to soon suprass him too. We see trunks later long enough for that to have been the case. I don't see why people can't take it at face value.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
FoolsGil
I Live Here
Posts: 4969
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:18 pm

Apparently. Usually you can chalk up stuff like that to time travel, tiny changes from Trunks going in time, and then tiny changes from when Cell was buried underground for 4 years affected Seventeen and Eighteen when they were created. Or, you can subscribe to DBM's thoughts on the matter, a lack of routine repairs reduced the Androids' power. Either way, current timeline Androids are stronger.

User avatar
shadowfox87
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:09 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:53 pm

Somehow Cell traveling to the past affected the timeline so that the Androids were much stronger. No one can really explain why. Essentially, even small changes in the past can cause ripples in time that can lead to bigger changes. This is what is known as the "butterfly effect". Trunks himself states after he finds out that Cell traveled 1 year before he did why the history has changed so much. The first change was that Dr. Gero and Android 19 attacked South City instead of 17 and 18. The second change was that they were much stronger. He was convinced that 2 Super Saiyans could defeat 17 and 18. The only reason Future Gohan couldn't is because it was always 2 vs 1. Then he lost an arm and Trunks couldn't turn SSJ. The other thing is that Trunks couldn't sense the ki of Androids 17 and 18, so he didn't really know how strong they really were. It's possible that they were always this strong but were never challenged enough. They kept Gohan and Trunks around for entertainment. In the Daizenshuu 7 though, it does say that the future androids were inferior in power.

Image
Source: Daizenshuu 7
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by Meshack » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:33 pm

Trunks believed the future androids were weaker in power to the present androids but we doesn’t make sense considering Trunks never experienced their full power. Daizenshuu does say they are somewhat inferior in power but be sceptical.

(P.S. They’re not cyborgs. Yes there were once human but that’s the thing - they were humans. Bulma stated in Super they were changed at the cellular level. No. 17 & No. 18 were used as projects by Dr. Gero and he made them into robots. Vegeta, at the end of the comic before the 28th Tenkaichi-Budoukai, didn’t even consider the an android and an Earthling the same thing when talking about Oob.)

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2658
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:48 pm

I remember hearing secondhand that Toriyama apparently clarified that 17 and 18 from Future Trunks's timeline weren't actually weaker than their main timeline counterparts, they just never had any need to use their full power.

I don't know if this is true or not, so if anyone who knows their sources better can confirm/deny, it'd be appreciated.

ankokudaishogun
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:59 pm

I'd say Cell traveling to the past changed things through butterfly effect.
This somehow caused Dr. Gero to use slightly different settings when building 17&18:
Future Gero probably did altered more their brains to make them better Red Ribbon soldiers\killers, but gave them a slightly lower power-level(either as a safety measure or because he spent more time on their brains and less on their energy systems).
Present Gero, viceversa, altered less their brains but gave them a greater power. This caused them to be classified as "failures", so Gero made #19 and turned himself into a cyborg.

This difference explains Future #17&18 being weaker than the Present ones. It's also worth of notice Trunks never experienced the full power of Future#17&18, and they told Future Gohan they were just playing with them.
So the difference in power, while being there, is probably lower than what Trunks believed.

User avatar
shadowfox87
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:09 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:15 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I remember hearing secondhand that Toriyama apparently clarified that 17 and 18 from Future Trunks's timeline weren't actually weaker than their main timeline counterparts, they just never had any need to use their full power.

I don't know if this is true or not, so if anyone who knows their sources better can confirm/deny, it'd be appreciated.
There's no such clarification. Toriyama never stated that. His last interview on the subject is here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ll-arc-06/
He only stated that since Androids are partially human, that they can get stronger with training.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

User avatar
Tectorman
Regular
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:30 pm

Kaboom wrote:If it was only Trunks, a fallible in-universe character, who seemed to believe that the past Androids were stronger... then while there'd still really be nothing against it, it'd at least be plausible and a good theory that he was simply mistaken because the future Androids had always been holding back on him.

But at least one or two guidebook sources do plainly confirm, independently from any in-universe ignorance, and the past Androids really were stronger. So officially, there's not really any ambiguity about it.
But are those guidebooks saying that independently, or is that what they decided to go with because of the only in-universe comparison given, that of the fallible Trunks who certainly could be operating on faulty information?
Twilight: My library?! My library!! Do you have any idea how many books I had in there?!
Lord Tirek: How many, little princess?
Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:41 pm

My personal theory for explaining why the power difference between the Androids happened is that while Gero didn't get any samples or battle data from anybody post the Saiyan Saga, he kept an eye on their battle powers and adjusted the Androids accordingly. Thus, in the altered Z timeline we watched, the Androids got much stronger as a reaction to everybody training for their arrival.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1717
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:46 pm

Yes. Trunks said three times that the twins from the present were stronger than their in universe counterparts. If he was supposed to be mistaken, it would've been pointed out by someone that he's wrong. 17's entry on the Daizenshuu 17 confirms this as it says his and 18's future counterparts are the weaker ones.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2211
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:47 pm

KBABZ wrote:My personal theory for explaining why the power difference between the Androids happened is that while Gero didn't get any samples or battle data from anybody post the Saiyan Saga, he kept an eye on their battle powers and adjusted the Androids accordingly. Thus, in the altered Z timeline we watched, the Androids got much stronger as a reaction to everybody training for their arrival.
Gero never actually said he observed anything past the Saiyan arc in the main timeline as well.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P8.6-7
Goku: “I see…But did you spy on the battle on Planet Namek too?”
No.20: “There was no need. By the battle with Vegeta and co., we had already completely grasped your power and techniques. We calculated that no matter how much you improved afterwards, considering your age, you wouldn’t have any increases as enormous as you had before…”
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

Meshack
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by Meshack » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:58 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Yes. Trunks said three times that the twins from the present were stronger than their in universe counterparts. If he was supposed to be mistaken, it would've been pointed out by someone that he's wrong. 17's entry on the Daizenshuu 17 confirms this as it says his and 18's future counterparts are the weaker ones.
Daizenshuu only records data based on what the series says.

Ssjcell
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:15 pm

Re: Are F. Trunks Cyborgs really weaker than our Cyborgs?

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:15 pm

Look I don't know if the Android's are stronger in the future or not my guess is that they are the same strength, and they never bothered to use their full strength on a 13 year old and a one armed man. What I want to bring up is if a.t. isn't writing these guidebooks why are we still following them?

Post Reply