Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Need to see your opinions

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I see you didn't quote on purpose didn't you.I didn't even know this was even here.

Oh so now you are telling me what my point is? LMAO wow.

Nice try bud, it's futile though. I didn't misinterpret anything you said so, and you haven't showed me how I did.

Again, you are just stating your interpretation of the events that may or may not be horrendously misguided

Huh? What kind of ill-excused shit is this? Things can be debated objectively. You're trying to imply what you say is correct but this is the debating here. If you can't prove me wrong like What you failed to do, then you have no place to continue this bud.

There's nothing "debunking" my argument. I am, nor is anybody else, going to read the entire thing.

UHAHAHAHAHAHA So the fish has been caught. You sure do like lying don't you?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I thought you read most of it? I see. I'll show you how unfair and fallacious of a person you are

You say nothing Is debunking you yet you didn't read that refute I sent. It's like:

Person A: Prove me wrong

Person B: Sends the refute

Person A: you didn't refute me but I didn't read it

What kind of pitiful and unfair person would you have to be to even say that? You should be ashamed of this. You need to learn to stay level with the person you're debating with and be respectful. The Gish Galloping you keep going around with won't benefit you at all. I already debunked you, and this is a fact until shown otherwise. The fact that you didn't read my post says so much about you and shows that you can't debunk it.

That is just way too damn long and filled with an enormous collection of weak points. (For example, your argument about Gohan just making a comment about "tremendous energy" is just laughable.)

"Enormous" look bud. What you say is irrelevant if you can't show these "Enormous points". You're contradicting yourself. I thought you read it Huh? I thought you did read it like you said, but yeah, as I said, the fish has been caught. You're just not a decent debater at all. Be that and get triggered but it's a fact until you change your ways of doing shit. I'm not someone you can trick at all, I have so much experience debating and I can spot fallacies easily, which you apparently have been ignoring because you can't understand the defintion of them.

Again, neither of them make any comment about a comparison of ki to previous fights.

Huh? See what I mean? You don't read. This is called Equivocation fallacy, where you try to twist the terms of the words and make them look confusing, however you also did an "out of context" fallacy here. You have ignored the entire context. Learn this bud, context > flat statements. Always rely on context not just statements

Yet again I caught you, you said "no statement says directly". But there's something called Implications which can be deduced based on the context of a thing:

[spoiler]
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An example is:

Person A (me): Character Y is above Z and this is implied by character D by how he says "the energy released by Z, unlike Y' s, made me shake"

Person B (you): But he didn't say Y > Z so no

That's also called an Appeal to ignorance fallacy, because you say this is wrong due to the lack of direct evidence which is direct statement while disregarding the implication. That's denialism if I'd say. You don't need a direct statement to imply something, if you can't even know that then thinking about how you debate people makes me feel sad for you. You can at least try befriend me and start arguing with me friendly like I tried with you at the start, then discuss things with me. I don't get the useless utter resistance, it's like if you don't pointlessly resist you're gonna be roasted, but you're roasting yourself so calm down.

The fact that this time you highlight "Unlike Beerus" does not change anything. It does not refernce Ki.

See what I'm talking about? Yet again you try hard to disregard the context. Goku and Frieza were fighting each other and releasing so much Ki that everyone was surprised. Gohan then says "what a tremendous ki" and Krillin continues Gohan's statement ABOUT KI that the Ki radiating from Goku and Frieza is scarier from the Ki released by Goku and Beerus back then

Krillin is comparing the fear that he felt when Beerus was around to the fear he felt when Freeza was there in that moment

Now that's speculation. NOWHERE IN THE CONTEXT DOES KRILLIN REFER TO FRIEZA'S EVIL HEART. In fact, Krillin is basically answer the "tremendous ki" notion from Gohan:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They're talking about Ki. This statement appeared DIRECTLY after Goku and Frieza clashed, and Krillin cannot sense Beerus. Hence, all translations mention Goku rather than Beerus and describe him to be stronger than he has ever been:

[spoiler]


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Literally there's no arguing it at all. There's no mention of Frieza scaring Krillin AT ALL in the context. That is just a point you pulled out of your ass to deny this fact.

It is baffling to me that you somehow think this is a reference to ki.

You basically pulled the word "baffling" and started to use it everywhere because it sounds amazing for you. Nice. Look bud, you're embarrassing yourself here given how you're trying to argue without even knowing about the context or scene. That's kind of ridiculous and "baffling".

The fact that you say "There's absolutely no arguing it" just shows how stubborn you are and how you are spewing your opinion as "proof." Yes, obviously there is arguing it, you can't just declare that there isn't.

No arguing it at all and that's no opinion. I know when something is debatable and when it isn't. The fact that you can't recognize that just shows you lack of abilities in debating so you asking me this proves all the more that you don't even know what the fuck you're debating about. It makes this all the more amusing to be honest, showing how much of a meat you are in this.

Again, this is left to the viewer's interpretation and your interpretation isn't automatically right.

For Everything there are interpretations, and misinterpretations. The debater has to pinpoint the correct ones and not just "leave it to the reader" otherwise it won't be a debate since it would be an everlasting one. You don't even know how to debate, wow. I'm really not surprised though. I know you'll get triggered from this. But if you calm down and try to learn, then things will come back and be reasoned with.

Even if you consider the context it doesn't automatically point to your interpretation.

So you're implying that you aren't considering the context?? Just wow, top kek. This is ridiculous at this point.

The story would have made an effort to make it clear that Goku had surpassed his SSG self in BASE during ROF if that was actually the case.

The story doesn't give a shit about that as evident by the number of outliers they keep pulling from time to time so asking that much doesn't prove anything. They didn't make it clear but it's still out there based on implications and DIRECT STATEMENTS from translations which I showed you above. So your reasoning for ignoring context is because they didn't make it clear? Again, you're spotted. The fact that the context shows it, makes it irrelevant to mention it again in the RoF arc.

The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Both Goku and Vegeta are thrown into a place which is far beyond their limits back then:

[spoiler]
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Again, this was after Whis witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's initial SsjB power:

[spoiler]

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Indeed, both Goku and Vegeta manage to surpass their limits and become capable of moving in this Dimension Whis throws them into, meeting Beerus's Expectations and surpassing Whis's:

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

(NOTE: This "Initial SsjB" business, while it's true it might (MIGHT) be temporary transformation-wise, the power itself was never said to be temporary, since Vegeta smirks as he achieves this power and whis notes their heightened powers, implying they got stronger at the instance forward).

You're just being ridiculous now.

It is not the case, so the narrator comments that he surpassed SSG when he goes SSB.(He also would have surpassed SSG if he went regular SSJ in that instance.)

I already covered that which you even said it's possible and ignored it yet now you go back in circles. He didn't say power, he meant transformation which is exactly what he was referring based on the words he said and the context at the end of the Episode when Goku went SsjB.

You could be right, but I don't recall the narrator commenting on Beerus's full-power.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is a perfect example of you presenting your opinion as proof. You say "Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases" and then don't say anything concrete or objective regarding that statement.

What kind of insecurity coming from you is This? After that statement I debunked that statement completely, but you said I didn't. Look Bud, Again, you saying that is irrelevant. SHOW ME how it's wrong, but since you can't, I'll take it like you're just acting powerful at this moment. What kind of strawman are you? The worst of the worst? yeah i know that. But you can improve. I know many people who are like you and started improving by knowing me. And don't feel hateful towards me after saying this, this is for you.

You just say that isn't the point and don't back it up with anything that holds any water. Training in their base form is more effective than training as Super Saiyans. Yes. So what? They established that it is just the best form of training. It does not refute anything of the statement you are trying to dispute.
Then you claim Goku/Vegeta never went SSJ during this training when you have nothing to support it. Who's to say they didn't train in SSJ only to realize that Base is more effective to train in. If anything, this statement implies my previous statement is the case.

This is so funny and makes me hysterically laugh. You can't even grasp the context don't you. I see that your weakness is really wide here. What you say about my analysis is irrelevant if you can't debunk it. Yes, training in their base forms is more effective that training using a Super Saiyan, but what do you mean so what? This is it. This is what Whis's statement means. This is what it means. Nothing more, nothing less. NOTHING OF IT MEANS THAT SSJ > SSJG > BASE, NOWHERE DOES IT EVEN IMPLY THAT! You tried to use this to support yourself which is far beyond amusing, and it makes you embarrass yourself so hard here. It refutes the statements because nothing of that statement says anything about Base < SsjG < Ssj and only mention that training in Base form is more effective than training in Ssj form. That's all. See? You yourself can't even extract behind analysis which is an obvious weakness you revealed. I complement you. So, thank you for conceding

Base Frost during this time was implied to be stronger than Base Goku, and yet Piccolo holds his own against him. You mean to tell me U6 Piccolo is stronger than SSG Goku even though he later got overpowered by Ultimate Gohan? Really?

This is your weakness. See how much desperate you're being? Not only did you write this claim while being half asleep, you didn't even revise the episodes and context didn't you?

Episode 34:

Title: Piccolo vs Frost. Bet Everything on the Makankosappo!

This proves that Piccolo Can't match frost at all, only the Makankosappo. This is why he's betting everything at the Makankosappo, and nothing more. The Makankosappo is God Tier which I'll be proving down

Minute 7:55...

Piccolo: Don't I have any chance of winning?
Goku: Nope.

Piccolo is fodder to frost, but that's why the title is about the Makankosappo. This has been made clear already. Goku says Piccolo holds absolutely no chance at all against frost based on Goku.

Ssj Goku > Final Form Frost > 3rd form Frost >= Base form Goku > SsjG Goku BoG > Piccolo

Minute 8:23...

Piccolo: Are you planning to continue fighting in your final form? Why don't you hold back a bit?

Piccolo knows he's fodder against him. Despite saying "a bit", Piccolo at some points starts to ask Frost to revert back forms even, just so that he'd manage to survive. Piccolo said "a bit" because he doesn't think that the opponent would actually hold back which makes sense as the opponent isn't obligated to listen to the contestant against them so he tried to simplify it as much as possible. So this overthrows this point completely, and frost already tells him this next

Minute 8:27...

Frost: You needn't worry. I don't have enough power left to accidentally take your life.

"You needn't worry", even though piccolo is weak as hell against someone like frost, and he knows it. Meaning Goku made frost weaker than his first form. This also implies that Frost is so powerful that he could accidentally kill Piccolo without meaning it, which shows the enormous gap. Even a Bloodlusted Merged Zamasu failed to one shot base forms Goku and Vegeta, so the gap between Piccolo and frost aren't even questionable and it's far too much to even quantify.

Minute 8:38...

Piccolo: Each and every one of you keep mocking me....

Point 22:- This proves that piccolo IMPROVED, he became way powerful and that's proven and foreshadowed when Piccolo removed his weights, and Goku was watching carefully. However nowhere near God Tier.

Frost implies he lost almost all his power and he's only using his willpower as a fighter and that's all. Yet He took the upper hand. The reason the Makankosappo is God Tier is because both Beerus and Goku complemented Piccolo and he was able to break Champa's shield whose blasts didn't work on it, and the Makankosappo could beat Frost. The Makankosappo gets stronger the more it is charged

This makes your claims OUTSTANDINGLY ridiculous frankly speaking. Next time, revise the episodes before coming back and claiming something. There's no need for that, since you have been educated and hopefully you'll grasp that knowledge like a good student.

Translation: "This debunks you because I say so."

Wrong translation. I asked herms and he said "This debunks you like the strawman you are"

The idea in the movies was that they had the power of a SSG in their base forms, not necessarily God Ki, then they go SSJ. This was there only two forms. This premise of a base that surpasses SSG was retconned hence why the rest of the forms still exist.

You started the first paragraph right, but then made yourself an utter chewing gum. Yes, Goku absorbed the power and NOT THE FORM ITSELF. The return of the forms doesn't contradict this.

For example:

Character A can transform to Super Character and Super Character 2. BASE Character A absorbed the power of the Super Character form, but that doesn't mean he lost Super Character 2 form

Same thing. Goku absorbed the power and not the form of SsjG. Meaning the other forms are a separate thing that won't correlate. Your point absolutely makes no sense at all. Because he absorbed the power he lost the forms? Wtf kinda correlation is that?

Even in the movies nothing implied that their base was using God Ki because nobody ever comments on not being able to sense Goku in his base. They COULD sense his base.

The promotional material and the implication behind it makes it apparent that they have God Ki in their base and so when they go Ssj their God Ki is infused making the form Blue. This is long established In the movies. Even the RoF Manga depicted Base form Goku to be a SsjG. Anyways this has nothing to do with the topic so you pulled that out without any relevance at all

The very premise that normal SSJ forms still exist shows that the movies were retconned and the idea of Saiyan Beyond God that surpasses Super Saiyan God by extension were also retconned. That was a movies only thing.

You don't have to believe two base theory or the Saiyan Beyond God theories to say Base Goku > SsjG Goku. This honestly here is a shit claim, because I kept disregarding the two theories already but at the same time I believe that Base Goku > SsjG Goku. There's no arguing it at all in the ToP arc even. You haven't read any of my post so whatever you say is shut. Regardless, this doesn't disprove my statements and doesn't clarify your point. You only managed to show why movies are retconned. So congrats on this success and the failure

There is a gigantic pile of evidence that DB Magnum brings up that shows that Base Goku is stronger than anything in DBZ.( I think he misinterpeted a lof of these things to conclude Base>SSG but overall he makes good points supporting the extremely powerful Base Goku that we see in the ToP.)

Call me Magnum only, that got me absorbed. Anyways, you didn't read my post to say I misinterpreted Base > SsjG lines and you even said "I think" so this overthrows your assumption and that shows that you just don't want to change your mind. I have Base Goku ToP arc > U6 arc hit. It has many supports and no contradictions at all. You'll probably say I'm wrong and ridicule my point (like you usually do when someone disagrees with you), but if you want to argue it then I'm also ready.

[Polyphase Avatron]

This seems to be your major fixation.

As for my opinion, the strength of base Goku as portrayed in the DBS anime is inconsistent.

[shadowfox87]

This seems to be your major fixation.

As for my opinion, the strength of base Goku as portrayed in the DBS anime is inconsistent.

Don't even bother. I've spent enough time on this subject already. You will just have to agree to disagree. Some will always believe in the "saiyan beyond god" theory. Based on his logic, he believes that Piccolo (ToP) > SSG Goku (BoG) and that Android 17 (ToP) ~ Jiren full power. These two statements here should be enough of an indication. He will also most likely say that Base Future Trunks (Zamasu arc) > SSG Goku (BoG).

When you use anime logic, that's what happens.

Base Goku (Current) > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG)
but to say above SSG is absurd as we all know that SSG eclipsed all previous transformations including SSJ3 and even Vegito.

He didn't even address my last comment and even told me that he didn't read the rest of it lol.

[PFM18]

I don't know if this is a problem on my end or what, but the first several pictures that you posted didn't work. It just says "Image" and doesn't actually show an image.

I see you didn't quote on purpose didn't you.I didn't even know this was even here.

No I didn't purposely not quote you. I didn't want to quote your entire post at once I wanted to respond to individual parts. When I normally do that, I just type in the person's username manually but I don't know how to type the little dot in your username so I couldn't do it the way I normally do it.

UHAHAHAHAHAHA So the fish has been caught. You sure do like lying don't you?

Uhh no I did not lie. I told you I read most of it and never contradicted it. I read the relevant parts, when you keep going all the way to the GOKU BLACK ARC then it gets extremely long winded and isn't even relevant once you get 50 episodes into the series. Myself, nor most people are going to read the entire thing I am just letting you know.

I thought you read most of it? I see. I'll show you how unfair and fallacious of a person you are

You say nothing Is debunking you yet you didn't read that refute I sent. It's like:

Person A: Prove me wrong

Person B: Sends the refute

Person A: you didn't refute me but I didn't read it

What kind of pitiful and unfair person would you have to be to even say that? You should be ashamed of this. You need to learn to stay level with the person you're debating with and be respectful. The Gish Galloping you keep going around with won't benefit you at all. I already debunked you, and this is a fact until shown otherwise. The fact that you didn't read my post says so much about you and shows that you can't debunk it.

I did read most of it. Again, since the image didn't work I am not sure what you are referring to. But that isn't at all how the conversation went. What you said trying to "refute" the idea that you brought up about how SSJ surpassed SSG but not base, then you brought up how Toriyama said that Goku and Vegeta were only going to use SSJ1 and not 2 and 3 much anymore. It didn't actually debunk anything and I'm not even sure why you said it. Then you brought up the fact that Goku and Vegeta preferred to train in base during their time with Whis. Which again, isn't entirely relevant and doesn't at all show that their base had surpassed the SSG/SSJ post God ritual.

"Enormous" look bud. What you say is irrelevant if you can't show these "Enormous points". You're contradicting yourself. I thought you read it Huh? I thought you did read it like you said, but yeah, as I said, the fish has been caught. You're just not a decent debater at all. Be that and get triggered but it's a fact until you change your ways of doing shit. I'm not someone you can trick at all, I have so much experience debating and I can spot fallacies easily, which you apparently have been ignoring because you can't understand the defintion of them.

Again, this is another example of you misinterpreting what I said and it is making it very hard to converse with you because of it. I didn't say anything of the points themselves being enormous but the collection of "weak" points was enormous. So no, I did not contradict myself at all. Then go on to just insult me and brag about your debating skills which is irrelevant to the conversation.

Huh? See what I mean? You don't read. This is called Equivocation fallacy, where you try to twist the terms of the words and make them look confusing, however you also did an "out of context" fallacy here. You have ignored the entire context. Learn this bud, context > flat statements. Always rely on context not just statements

Yet again I caught you, you said "no statement says directly". But there's something called Implications which can be deduced based on the context of a thing:

You had just repeated what you said about Krillin and Gohan's statements. But again, neither of them make a comparison of the ki. Gohan makes a generic comment about their ki being very large and Krillin just says he is more scared than when he fought Beerus. Ok great Krillin gets scared all the time in fact they had a mini character arc later in the series addressing it. Nothing compares Goku's current strength with his SSG strength or his SSJ strength post God. I interpreted it as him implying that Freeza is more evil. Which obviously, Freeza is more evil and killed Krillin. Obviously, a direct statement was never made about Freeza being more evil and that being why he is more scared,but it is left vague why he is more scared than before.

Literally there's no arguing it at all. There's no mention of Frieza scaring Krillin AT ALL in the context. That is just a point you pulled out of your ass to deny this fact.

Yes. Obviously. But why else would Krillin be scared? Honestly. Krillin is mentioning being scared and it is obvously referring to Goku clashing with this extremely powerful and extremely evil person. I have no idea how you perceive Krillin being scared referencing Goku's power. Why would Krillin be scared because Goku's power increased?

No arguing it at all and that's no opinion. I know when something is debatable and when it isn't. The fact that you can't recognize that just shows you lack of abilities in debating so you asking me this proves all the more that you don't even know what the fuck you're debating about. It makes this all the more amusing to be honest, showing how much of a meat you are in this.

Ok great so this is you disregarding the idea that people can have different opinions on this idea and anybody who thinks differently from you is wrong. It isn't debatable because you say so. Then you go on to just insult me more ok great.

The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:

Ok all of what you just said especially the first two sentences align with my interpretation that SSJ>SSG>Base. Beerus states Goku got stronger than before. Yes, obviously Goku got stronger than before. Yes, obviously they can only transform into regular SSJ at this point. Goku DID get stronger since his fight with Beerus. It was very thoroughly established during his fight with Beerus that his SSJ had far surpassed SSG. Obviously Beerus knew they could go Super Saiyan. Goku's SSJ during Whis's training>>Goku 's SSJ during his fight with Beerus. You are just reinforcing the obvious notion that Goku and Vegeta are getting stronger during this time. I agree, I estimate they atleast doubled their power during this time. But there is no way of knowing for sure how much, but more importantly to this discussion is that there's not any indication during this training sequence that Goku had surpassed his SSJ self from before against Beerus. The idea that he had not surpassed this level is reinforced during ROF when Goku powers up there being no mention of him being stronger than when he fought Beerus, and the narrator confirming that Goku had only surpassed his SSG self,(and therefore his SSJ self) when he had gone SSB.

I already covered that which you even said it's possible and ignored it yet now you go back in circles. He didn't say power, he meant transformation which is exactly what he was referring based on the words he said and the context at the end of the Episode when Goku went SsjB.

Yes, I did say that this could possibly mean that they referring to strictly the SSB transformation surpassing the SSG transformation but there is no way of knowing for sure. We do not have the writers in front of us to ask them what they meant by that statement. The way I see it is that they weren't referring to strictly the SSB transformation surpassing the SSG transformation. They had already established that golden SSJ was used as the substitute for SSG(since the ritual had "expired) and that Goku could easily surpass his old SSG self in his golden SSJ form. So it is not notable that Goku's SSB surpasses the SSG transformation itself, because Goku already has his SSJ transformation serves the same purpose and infused the power of SSG within it. Goku already had a transformation that surpassed SSG, so why would it be notable that SSB surpasses it? The narrator is taking note that during Goku's fight with Freeza, when he goes SSB is the point in which he surpasses SSG during ROF. (NOT when he powers up in base.)

Then you post a picture responding to my statement not recalling the narrator making a comment about being at full power, but the picture doesn't show up. Again, Idk if this is a problem with my computer or what the deal is but I can't see the picture that you posted.

Then you go on to insult me some more....

This is your weakness. See how much desperate you're being? Not only did you write this claim while being half asleep, you didn't even revise the episodes and context didn't you?

Episode 34:

Title: Piccolo vs Frost. Bet Everything on the Makankosappo!

This proves that Piccolo Can't match frost at all, only the Makankosappo. This is why he's betting everything at the Makankosappo, and nothing more. The Makankosappo is God Tier which I'll be proving down

Minute 7:55...

Piccolo: Don't I have any chance of winning?
Goku: Nope.

Piccolo is fodder to frost, but that's why the title is about the Makankosappo. This has been made clear already. Goku says Piccolo holds absolutely no chance at all against frost based on Goku.

Ssj Goku > Final Form Frost > 3rd form Frost >= Base form Goku > SsjG Goku BoG > Piccolo

Minute 8:23...

Piccolo: Are you planning to continue fighting in your final form? Why don't you hold back a bit?

Piccolo knows he's fodder against him. Despite saying "a bit", Piccolo at some points starts to ask Frost to revert back forms even, just so that he'd manage to survive. Piccolo said "a bit" because he doesn't think that the opponent would actually hold back which makes sense as the opponent isn't obligated to listen to the contestant against them so he tried to simplify it as much as possible. So this overthrows this point completely, and frost already tells him this next

Minute 8:27...

Frost: You needn't worry. I don't have enough power left to accidentally take your life.

"You needn't worry", even though piccolo is weak as hell against someone like frost, and he knows it. Meaning Goku made frost weaker than his first form. This also implies that Frost is so powerful that he could accidentally kill Piccolo without meaning it, which shows the enormous gap. Even a Bloodlusted Merged Zamasu failed to one shot base forms Goku and Vegeta, so the gap between Piccolo and frost aren't even questionable and it's far too much to even quantify.

Minute 8:38...

Piccolo: Each and every one of you keep mocking me....

Point 22:- This proves that piccolo IMPROVED, he became way powerful and that's proven and foreshadowed when Piccolo removed his weights, and Goku was watching carefully. However nowhere near God Tier.

Frost implies he lost almost all his power and he's only using his willpower as a fighter and that's all. Yet He took the upper hand. The reason the Makankosappo is God Tier is because both Beerus and Goku complemented Piccolo and he was able to break Champa's shield whose blasts didn't work on it, and the Makankosappo could beat Frost. The Makankosappo gets stronger the more it is charged

This makes your claims OUTSTANDINGLY ridiculous frankly speaking. Next time, revise the episodes before coming back and claiming something. There's no need for that, since you have been educated and hopefully you'll grasp that knowledge like a good student.

Yes, obviously only Piccolo's Makankosappo is on the level of Frost. Again, you just point out the obvious. My inital statement I was referring to Piccolo as a character, his Makankosappo being God tier "counts" as far as this discussion is concerned. So what the Makankosappo has some infinitely large multiplier that can put Piccolo in God tier? The most we have seen it do is exerting power a couple times more than his own.(AKA RADITZ) The fact that Piccolo's Makankosappo is able to compete with Frost is indicative that Frost probably isn't God Tier if someone like Piccolo can compete with him.(Whether it just be Piccolo's Makankosappo or not.) Then, after just stating the obvious fact that Piccolo's Makankosappo>Piccolo's power a million different ways, you go on to insult me some more ok. The fact that Beerus and Goku complement Piccolo's Makankosappo doesn't indicate it is God tier. They are just complementing him, they were surprised that Piccolo was able to exert that much more than his normal power.

Call me Magnum only, that got me absorbed. Anyways, you didn't read my post to say I misinterpreted Base > SsjG lines and you even said "I think" so this overthrows your assumption and that shows that you just don't want to change your mind. I have Base Goku ToP arc > U6 arc hit. It has many supports and no contradictions at all. You'll probably say I'm wrong and ridicule my point (like you usually do when someone disagrees with you), but if you want to argue it then I'm also ready.

How am I supposed to know to call you Magnum only? Yes I think because then if I am not just "thinking" that to be the case then that would be implying that I am presenting my opinion as a fact. This is a subjective discussion and I have to acknowledge that. Yes, you can provide objective evidence but at the end of the day it is up to the individual how they are going to interpret that evidence or weigh that evidence against opposing, contradicting evidence. If you were the "master debater" you seem to claim you are, you would know this. Apparently, you display your debating ability by simply constantly insulting your opposition for no particular reason.

Base Goku (Current) > Base Goku (RoF) > Base Goku (BoG)
but to say above SSG is absurd as we all know that SSG eclipsed all previous transformations including SSJ3 and even Vegito.

I agree with this. The way I see things is:

SSJ Goku post ritual>SSG Goku BoG>Base Goku ToP>SSJ3 Vegetto Buu Arc>SSJ Vegetto Buu Arc>=Base Goku ROF

However, lol I still vehemently disagree with you about the manga being better than the anime.

Your debating "style" and viewpoints reminds me of SethTheProgrammer which is not a very good sign.(You and him both argue by consntantly insulting the opposition/being disrespectful and both believe in these absolutely enormous power boosts constantly happening.)

[supercat]

I've said this before but both sides of the argument (SSJ Goku = post ritual red form or Base Goku = post ritual red form) make some very strong and valid points. I personally lean towards SSJ Goku = post ritual red, but with Base Goku being far far stronger than anything the Buu saga had to show; meaning Base Goku > hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto.

I don't see the sense in arguing back and forth as whether it's SSJ Goku or Base Goku that surpassed his post ritual red form makes little to no difference. The important thing is Base Goku is far stronger than the top contenders of the Buu saga; a concept that had been implied numerous times.

[shadowfox87]

I agree with this. The way I see things is:

SSJ Goku post ritual>SSG Goku BoG>Base Goku ToP>SSJ3 Vegetto Buu Arc>SSJ Vegetto Buu Arc>=Base Goku ROF

However, lol I still vehemently disagree with you about the manga being better than the anime.

That's fine. To each their own. As long as you state what logic you're using to base your statements, it is fine. You are using the anime and I'm using the manga. You can refer to my previous thread on the subject. If you are ok with using anime logic and BoG, then you will of course say that SSJ Goku (post ritual) >= SSG Goku (BoG). However, given that the fight between SSJ Goku and Beerus in space never happened in the manga, I'm discounting it. In addition, if you use logic to say SSJ Goku (post BoG) >= SSG Goku (BoG), then you basically say that every opponent SSJ Goku after BoG has battled should be > SSG Goku (BoG). This includes Frost fourth form, Trunks, etc.

I'm ok with people using anime logic, but the problem is the anime retcons itself, so the logic itself has changed. Also, were you referring me to SethTheProgrammer or the other guy? I haven't been disrespectful or insulted anyone in any of my posts. You can quote me.

[PFM18]

I agree with this. The way I see things is:

SSJ Goku post ritual>SSG Goku BoG>Base Goku ToP>SSJ3 Vegetto Buu Arc>SSJ Vegetto Buu Arc>=Base Goku ROF

However, lol I still vehemently disagree with you about the manga being better than the anime.

That's fine. To each their own. As long as you state what logic you're using to base your statements, it is fine. You are using the anime and I'm using the manga. You can refer to my previous thread on the subject. If you are ok with using anime logic and BoG, then you will of course say that SSJ Goku (post ritual) >= SSG Goku (BoG). However, given that the fight between SSJ Goku and Beerus in space never happened in the manga, I'm discounting it. In addition, if you use logic to say SSJ Goku (post BoG) >= SSG Goku (BoG), then you basically say that every opponent SSJ Goku after BoG has battled should be > SSG Goku (BoG). This includes Frost fourth form, Trunks, etc.

I'm ok with people using anime logic, but the problem is the anime retcons itself, so the logic itself has changed. Also, were you referring me to SethTheProgrammer or the other guy? I haven't been disrespectful or insulted anyone in any of my posts. You can quote me.

Right. in the anime SSJ Goku>SSG Goku BoG and anybody who can beat/compete with SSJ Goku is stronger than that SSG Goku. I don't think Frost falls under that category since Vegeta/Goku dominated him as SSJs but otherwise I agree entirely. The scaling is just different in the anime and the manga. That's why I find it irritating that people "mix and match" all the time and apply things that happened in the manga to the anime.(for example Piccolo>Bergamo.)

I disagree that the anime retconned itself. It may seem that they retconned the super strong Goku who infused SSG->SSJ but most things that "contradict" that can be attributed to Goku wanting a fun fight so he suppresses himself to the level of the other person.

No, I was referring to "Magnum" being similar to SethTheProgrammer. Of course, you weren't being disrespectful/rude/insulting as far as I know. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

[shadowfox87]

I disagree that the anime retconned itself. It may seem that they retconned the super strong Goku who infused SSG->SSJ but most things that "contradict" that can be attributed to Goku wanting a fun fight so he suppresses himself to the level of the other person.

Yea, this goes back to the two base theory. One where he is suppressed and one where he is using god ki. However, if you think about it, if he can be in his base form and utilize god ki without transforming into SSG, don't you think that would save a lot of stamina? It would be wise for Goku to then just stay in his base and not even transform into SSG. Yet, in the ToP, we see him use SSJ, SSJ2, and even SSJ3, all that would eat up considerable stamina. If he could stay in his base (not suppressed), that would by your logic be superior would it not? In the anime, we see him attack Jiren in base to which Jiren doesn't flinch. Then he turns into SSG and Jiren starts using 1 finger. I guess my question is why even transform into SSG if all the power is already absorbed into base? What is the point? If it isn't a retcon, what is the explanation?

[sintzu]

No, I think that's a bit too much even for Super's messed up powers.

[PFM18]

No, I think that's a bit too much even for Super's messed up powers.

But he atleast has to be pretty close to it by now right? Goku's SSJ post-ritual>SSG and he has gotten massively stronger since then.(including the 10x he boost he got from U6 Arc -> Post FT Arc)

I disagree that the anime retconned itself. It may seem that they retconned the super strong Goku who infused SSG->SSJ but most things that "contradict" that can be attributed to Goku wanting a fun fight so he suppresses himself to the level of the other person.

Yea, this goes back to the two base theory. One where he is suppressed and one where he is using god ki. However, if you think about it, if he can be in his base form and utilize god ki without transforming into SSG, don't you think that would save a lot of stamina? It would be wise for Goku to then just stay in his base and not even transform into SSG. Yet, in the ToP, we see him use SSJ, SSJ2, and even SSJ3, all that would eat up considerable stamina. If he could stay in his base (not suppressed), that would by your logic be superior would it not? In the anime, we see him attack Jiren in base to which Jiren doesn't flinch. Then he turns into SSG and Jiren starts using 1 finger. I guess my question is why even transform into SSG if all the power is already absorbed into base? What is the point? If it isn't a retcon, what is the explanation?

Honestly, I don't think this goes back to two base theory. For the points you mentioned Goku and Vegeta cannot utilize God Ki in their base. Nothing supports them using God Ki in their base. The power of SSG was infused into Goku's SSJ form in BoG. The last couple episodes of BoG really tried to emphasize that. Not the God Ki itself, but the power that he had in the SSG form. This massive power boost he got from this infusion in this moment gave him the ability to be above Final Form Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, and be even with Monaka suit Beerus and a Fit Buu.(Who was much stronger than previous iterations of Buu) So the idea of:

SSJ2>SSJ>Base

Still holds true. So the scene with Jiren makes sense. There isn't a retcon because it isn't that Goku's base and SSG have the same power rendering his other transformations useless, it is that he just gained a massive boost after the SSG form disipated when he infused that particular power within himself. He just gained an astronomical boost in power during that moment, essentially nothing else really happened.

[shadowfox87]

Nothing supports them using God Ki in their base. The power of SSG was infused into Goku's SSJ form in BoG. The last couple episodes of BoG really tried to emphasize that. Not the God Ki itself, but the power that he had in the SSG form.

Ok, so let's just take this point alone. You're stating that Goku is NOT using god ki in his base but that the power of SSG was infused into Goku's SSJ in BoG. The power of SSG comes from god ki. The power of SSG infused into SSJ becomes SSB. So what do you mean by power of SSG if not god ki? I know that in the anime and in the BoG, this occurred which is what leads to the "saiyan beyond god". If Goku has the power of SSG infused into SSJ, why bother having a separate SSG transformation at all? He's absorbed the power of SSG, so why have it? Given that Goku battled Future Trunks in SSJ3, previously SSJ2, would you say that Trunks is > SSG Goku (BoG)? The whole battle with Beerus in a Monaka costume and the Potafu arc I have always considered fillers. However, let's consider them. You just said that Base Goku is fighting Beerus in a Monaka costume but is not using god ki but that the power of SSG is infused into his base right? In the Zamasu arc, Goku fights Zamasu in SSJ2, is Zamasu > SSG Goku (BoG)? If not, why did he not choose to fight him in base?

I know things are different in the manga and you can totally disregard this if you only wish to use anime facts. However, the fight between SSJ Goku vs Beerus in space in manga never happened. No line about him absorbing the power of SSG in his base or fight has suggested his in the manga. The Goku base vs Beerus (Monaka costume), never happened. Potafu didn't happen. SSG and Base were distinct. In the manga, the Goku vs Zamasu fight on the Kaioshin planet never happened. In the manga, the SSG transformation was used in the U6 arc, Zamasu arc, and Goku also used it vs Toppo.

[PFM18]

Nothing supports them using God Ki in their base. The power of SSG was infused into Goku's SSJ form in BoG. The last couple episodes of BoG really tried to emphasize that. Not the God Ki itself, but the power that he had in the SSG form.

Ok, so let's just take this point alone. You're stating that Goku is NOT using god ki in his base but that the power of SSG was infused into Goku's SSJ in BoG. The power of SSG comes from god ki. The power of SSG infused into SSJ becomes SSB. So what do you mean by power of SSG if not god ki? I know that in the anime and in the BoG, this occurred which is what leads to the "saiyan beyond god". If Goku has the power of SSG infused into SSJ, why bother having a separate SSG transformation at all? He's absorbed the power of SSG, so why have it? Given that Goku battled Future Trunks in SSJ3, previously SSJ2, would you say that Trunks is > SSG Goku (BoG)? The whole battle with Beerus in a Monaka costume and the Potafu arc I have always considered fillers. However, let's consider them. You just said that Base Goku is fighting Beerus in a Monaka costume but is not using god ki but that the power of SSG is infused into his base right? In the Zamasu arc, Goku fights Zamasu in SSJ2, is Zamasu > SSG Goku (BoG)? If not, why did he not choose to fight him in base?

I know things are different in the manga and you can totally disregard this if you only wish to use anime facts. However, the fight between SSJ Goku vs Beerus in space in manga never happened. No line about him absorbing the power of SSG in his base or fight has suggested his in the manga. The Goku base vs Beerus (Monaka costume), never happened. Potafu didn't happen. SSG and Base were distinct. In the manga, the Goku vs Zamasu fight on the Kaioshin planet never happened. In the manga, the SSG transformation was used in the U6 arc, Zamasu arc, and Goku also used it vs Toppo.

Goku infused the power of SSG, as in literally that level of power, into his SSJ. But immediately after that moment, people can sense Goku.(Piccolo for example.) They can sense him and that he isn't using God Ki, and then he starts performing better against Beerus than his SSG self. That scene right there is what all of this boils down to. The "Saiyan Beyond God" name and phrase referred to the idea that Goku and Vegeta could use God Ki in their base and that when they go SSJ, then they go SSGSS/SSB. This Saiyan Beyond God, was stronger than SSG. However, this was retconned in DBS. Goku and Vegeta don't use God Ki in their base and their base isn't stronger than SSG. This way, the characters aren't limited to just Saiyan Beyond God and SSB, they can use all the previously established forms. The DBS writers made that change from the movie to the DBS arc.

He gained a flat boost in power during his fight with Beerus and SSG is its own transformation seperate from this power boost. He doesn't just use his SSG in base throughout the rest of the entire series, he just gained a big power boost when the ritual ran out and he infused THAT SSG power into his SSJ form.

As for Trunks, Goku was suppressed against him. This is shown when Trunks gets defeated by SSJ3 Goku and then he says that Black is stronger than that and Goku is going to need more power than that. Then, Black shows up and Goku is even or has a slight edge in his SSJ2 form. So things look like this:

SSJ2 Goku(full-power)>Base Black>SSJ3 Goku(suppressed)>SSJ2 Future Trunks=SSJ2 Goku(suppressed)>SSG Goku BoG>

Since, SSJ3 is a 4x multiplier and Goku surpassed it in his SSJ2 form, I would say that Future Trunks is probably about 20% as strong as Goku in an equivalent form. But yes, I do believe SSJ2 Future Trunks is very slightly stronger than SSG Goku. Yes,Zamasu is > SSG Goku. The characters just get stronger as the series progresses and the enemies have to grow with them. That is just the nature of Dragon Ball.

I am not really sure why you mention all the stuff in the manga.

[shadowfox87]

I disagree that the anime retconned itself. It may seem that they retconned the super strong Goku who infused SSG->SSJ but most things that "contradict" that can be attributed to Goku wanting a fun fight so he suppresses himself to the level of the other person.

Goku infused the power of SSG, as in literally that level of power, into his SSJ. But immediately after that moment, people can sense Goku.(Piccolo for example.) They can sense him and that he isn't using God Ki, and then he starts performing better against Beerus than his SSG self. That scene right there is what all of this boils down to. The "Saiyan Beyond God" name and phrase referred to the idea that Goku and Vegeta could use God Ki in their base and that when they go SSJ, then they go SSGSS/SSB. This Saiyan Beyond God, was stronger than SSG. However, this was retconned in DBS. Goku and Vegeta don't use God Ki in their base and their base isn't stronger than SSG. This way, the characters aren't limited to just Saiyan Beyond God and SSB, they can use all the previously established forms. The DBS writers made that change from the movie to the DBS arc.

So you first disagreed that the anime retconned itself. Then you are telling me that it was retconned in DBS. My point from the very start was that the anime retconned it. Of course I have already acknowledged the SSJ Goku absorbing the power of SSG in BoG movie and anime. Of course, SSJ Goku was implied to have the same power as SSG Goku when fighting Beerus. When he lost SSG, Piccolo sensed his ki, so it was implied he had no god ki. That is not what I'm debating. That is fact. The point here is that later in the anime, SSG was shown as a distinct transformation apart from base. That, SSJ and SSG are very different. This is clearly a retcon.

You also told me that there isn't a two base theory, but you are again telling me that Goku is sometimes suppressing his base while other times he's using the "power" of SSG. That's the premise of the two base theory and the defense against the "retcon".

The point of me telling you the manga is that it didn't retcon itself. It's consistent. It was always that way. In the manga, there was never a SSJ2 Goku vs Black fight. In fact, Black goes SSJ2 in the manga to fight SSJ2 Vegeta. Vegeta was winning initially until Black got healed and got a zenkai boost.

[PFM18]

I disagree that the anime retconned itself. It may seem that they retconned the super strong Goku who infused SSG->SSJ but most things that "contradict" that can be attributed to Goku wanting a fun fight so he suppresses himself to the level of the other person.

Goku infused the power of SSG, as in literally that level of power, into his SSJ. But immediately after that moment, people can sense Goku.(Piccolo for example.) They can sense him and that he isn't using God Ki, and then he starts performing better against Beerus than his SSG self. That scene right there is what all of this boils down to. The "Saiyan Beyond God" name and phrase referred to the idea that Goku and Vegeta could use God Ki in their base and that when they go SSJ, then they go SSGSS/SSB. This Saiyan Beyond God, was stronger than SSG. However, this was retconned in DBS. Goku and Vegeta don't use God Ki in their base and their base isn't stronger than SSG. This way, the characters aren't limited to just Saiyan Beyond God and SSB, they can use all the previously established forms. The DBS writers made that change from the movie to the DBS arc.

So you first disagreed that the anime retconned itself. Then you are telling me that it was retconned in DBS. My point from the very start was that the anime retconned it. Of course I have already acknowledged the SSJ Goku absorbing the power of SSG in BoG movie and anime. That is not what I'm debating. That is fact. The point here is that later in the anime, SSG was shown as a distinct transformation apart from base. That, SSJ and SSG are very different.

The point of me telling you the manga is that it didn't retcon itself. It's consistent. It was always that way. In the manga, there was never a SSJ2 Goku vs Black fight. In fact, Black goes SSJ2 in the manga to fight SSJ2 Vegeta. Vegeta was winning initially until Black got healed and got a zenkai boost.

No you are misunderstanding. The DBS anime did not retcon itself it retconned the movies. SSJ and SSG are different but that doesn't indicate a retcon. SSJ uses normal Ki and SSG uses God Ki. SSG only appeared a couple times after episode 13 in the entire 131 episodes so I don't think it was really explained how it worked after the ritual very well, but it is its own separate form.

You also told me that there isn't a two base theory, but you are again telling me that Goku is sometimes suppressing his base while other times he's using the "power" of SSG. That's the premise of the two base theory and the defense against the "retcon".

I did not say either of the things you just mentioned. Goku's base is not as strong as SSG but it gained a tremendous boost after what happened in episode 14. It isn't that sometimes he is suppressing his base while other times he is using the "power" of SSG, it is that Goku suppresses himself the same way that he has suppressed himself throughout DB and DBZ. This is no different. There is no such rotation between "using the power of SSG" and not "using the power of SSG." Goku suppresses himself all the time that has been a fixed thing in the 575 episode run of the DB series. The "two base theory" implies that there is an "on/off switch" to turn God Ki on and off in their base form. This is not the case, Goku suppresses himself down to his opponent to have a more fun fight it is simple as that.

The anime doesn't retcon itself so this is a moot point about the manga. Regardless I am not going to have an anime vs manga discussion on here. There are other threads for that.

[shadowfox87]

No you are misunderstanding. The DBS anime did not retcon itself it retconned the movies. SSJ and SSG are different but that doesn't indicate a retcon. SSJ uses normal Ki and SSG uses God Ki. SSG only appeared a couple times after episode 13 in the entire 131 episodes so I don't think it was really explained how it worked after the ritual very well, but it is its own separate form.

What do you mean? The scene where Goku fights Beerus in SSJ form and where Beerus comments that he hasn't lost any power as well as Piccolo being able to sense his ki, have all been shown in the anime and movie. The point is that SSB is SSJ+god ki. He supposedly absorbed the "power" of SSG and not the form. The idea here was that since he absorbed it, we weren't supposed to see SSG ever again based on anime and movie logic. Then he randomly showed the SSG form in ToP in the anime while not ever showing it before. He fought Beerus in his base. You're saying that base isn't strong as SSG but that absorbing the power of SSG somehow made his base stronger. You said that after absorbing the SSG, that his regular SSJ (no god ki) got stronger right? So my question to you is how or why? SSG's power comes from god ki. If he's not using god ki then how is his SSJ getting stronger? Are you saying he's using a mix of god ki and regular ki while SSB is using all god ki? In any case, there's just too many contradictions in the anime to not call it a retcon.

[supercat]

The two base theory is as farfetched as the retcon theory, and they both have one thing in common; neither was ever stated in-universe in any shape or form. It really doesn't get simpler than that.

Goku and Vegeta have so many feats that place their base forms way above anyone from the Buu saga. I'm not sure how anyone can still argue that this isn't the case.

Base Goku / Base Vegeta (ToP) > SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu saga) > / = Base Goku / Base Vegeta (Merged Zamasu battle) >> Base Goku / Base Vegeta (Universe 6 Tournament) > Base Goku / Base Vegeta (RoF) = Final Form Frieza > / = SSJ2 Vegetto (Buu saga) > SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga) >> Buuhan > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > Mr. Buu

[PFM18]

No you are misunderstanding. The DBS anime did not retcon itself it retconned the movies. SSJ and SSG are different but that doesn't indicate a retcon. SSJ uses normal Ki and SSG uses God Ki. SSG only appeared a couple times after episode 13 in the entire 131 episodes so I don't think it was really explained how it worked after the ritual very well, but it is its own separate form.

What do you mean? The scene where Goku fights Beerus in SSJ form and where Beerus comments that he hasn't lost any power as well as Piccolo being able to sense his ki, have all been shown in the anime and movie. The point is that SSB is SSJ+god ki. He supposedly absorbed the "power" of SSG and not the form. The idea here was that since he absorbed it, we weren't supposed to see SSG ever again based on anime and movie logic. Then he randomly showed the SSG form in ToP in the anime while not ever showing it before. He fought Beerus in his base. You're saying that base isn't strong as SSG but that absorbing the power of SSG somehow made his base stronger. You said that after absorbing the SSG, that his regular SSJ (no god ki) got stronger right? So my question to you is how or why? SSG's power comes from god ki. If he's not using god ki then how is his SSJ getting stronger? Are you saying he's using a mix of god ki and regular ki while SSB is using all god ki? In any case, there's just too many contradictions in the anime to not call it a retcon.

In the movie and the promotional material of the ROF movie, their base forms could use God Ki and had surpassed the power of SSG in their base forms. This 'Base" became known as "Saiyan Beyond God." Then when this SBG would go Super Saiyan, then they become SSB. So they only have two forms: SBG and SSB.

In the anime of DBS, Goku and Vegeta cannot use God Ki in their base forms and it is not stronger than their SSG form from BoG. Since this base doesn't have God Ki and is no different from Goku's normal Base form from throughout the series, coming up with a new name for it was not necessary. Now in the DBS anime, Goku and Vegeta have access to all of their forms: SSJ,SSJ2, etc etc. Rather than just SBG and SSB in the movie

In the DBS anime, Goku and Vegeta go to another dimension that Whis sends them to and there Goku and Vegeta learn to harness their ki and utilize God Ki. In that moment, they got a spark of SSB(blue aura surrounded their punches.) They don't let their ki leak out etc etc and they learn to control their ki just like Whis had promised Vegeta on Earth. DBS explains what SSB is and how it was achieved rather than the vague explanation that the movie gives. SSG is a result of utilizing God Ki, and SSB is the Super Saiyan result of utilizing God Ki. This is never contradicted and there is no retcon necessary. as far as having the "power" of SSG in SSJ, that was what was shown and it is up to the viewer to rationalize why that happened. It is left pretty vague. To me, what happened was Goku converted the God Ki into regular Ki and added that to himself. Then he had regular ki but was stronger than SSG.

[shadowfox87]

To me, what happened was Goku converted the God Ki into regular Ki and added that to himself. Then he had regular ki but was stronger than SSG.

This rationalization does not work for me. God ki is on a completely different level. Goku said that he couldn't match Beerus with SSJ3 or even Vegito. For him to convert this "god ki" into regular ki defeats the purpose of using god ki in the first place. Jiren for example, isn't using god ki. He's just a pure raw beast. In any case, we will just have to agree to disagree. I have to use the logic I find most consistent, which for me, is in the manga.

[PFM18]

To me, what happened was Goku converted the God Ki into regular Ki and added that to himself. Then he had regular ki but was stronger than SSG.

This rationalization does not work for me. God ki is on a completely different level. Goku said that he couldn't match Beerus with SSJ3 or even Vegito. For him to convert this "god ki" into regular ki defeats the purpose of using god ki in the first place. Jiren for example, isn't using god ki. He's just a pure raw beast. In any case, we will just have to agree to disagree. I have to use the logic I find most consistent, which for me, is in the manga.

Well this rationalization is going to have to work for you to be honest. The characters of:

Android 17,Jiren,Golden Freeza,Toppo,Dyspo,Hit,Anilaza, and Kefla

All show that they are atleast on that God level or much stronger in some cases. And yet not a single one of them showed any indication of using God Ki.(In the case of Base Toppo) It is common place in the series to reach these godly levels without actually using God Ki. arguably there are even more regular ki users that reach that level. That's EIGHT characters that were on God level without using God Ki.

Again, this discussion is not for the purposes of having an anime vs manga debate. I am just clarifying that there was not a retcon