Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

[PFM18]

Unlike the Kaioshins, SSG can actually put a fight against Beerus to the point their battle had the potential to destroy the universe. That much we can infer from a fight that lasted about 5 episodes. Anyway, Vegeta made clear cut in episode 15 that SSG is the level of a god. The wording is the same that Whis uses. There is no reason to assume they are talking about different things here.

To add to that, it doesn't affect powerscale from later events, because Beerus was still out of their league despite their improvements. There is nothing from your current list that wasn't already adressed. At least provide solid arguments.

Ok that is great that the Kaioshins cannot but a SSG can. That doesn't really say much about Whis's statement comparing the tree to the castle. SSG has God Ki and it has power that has never been seen before and nothing even close to it had been seen before. That is Vegeta's statement not Whis's. Vegeta commenting on a god level has no baring on Whis referencing a "god level." Whis obviously knows infinitely more about the power of the gods and how little SSG actually is. The GoDs are thousands of times stronger than the SSG Goku used against Beerus. It makes absolutely no sense for him to consider SSG in the same "level of the gods" as Beerus since they are in completely different leagues of each other. The point of that line was made to establish that despite their progress, they still had a long way to go to even touch what is beyond them like the GoDs.

The line's purpose was NOT to establish in the most convoluted way possible, that Goku had lost his power he had against Beerus. If that was the intention behind that dialogue, it would have been made more clear and less vague. There's absolutely no way that is what was meant by Whis's statement especially since he had just emphasized he was surprised how much progress they made in such a short time and how Beerus could be right about them being possible rivals one day.

Goku (before SSG)
Base - 1
SS - 50
SS2 - 100
SS3 - 400
SSG - 10,000,000

Goku (after SSG)
Base - 1,000
SS - 50,000
SS2 - 100,000
SS3 - 400,000
SSG - 10,000,000

OK so you think that Goku didn't retain the boost to make his SSJ~SSG BoG but at the same time you inconspicuously make him 1000x stronger after the ritual? And his SSJ isn't as strong as BoG SSG like Beerus and Goku had stated?

If you want to put these things into numbers things look closer to something like this:
[spoiler]Goku(pre-ritual)
Base - 1
SS - 50
SS2 - 100
SS3 - 400
SSG-8,000,000
Goku(post-ritual)
Base - 180,000
SSJ - 9,000,000
SSJ2 - 18,000,000
SSJ3-72,000,000
SSG-144,000,000[/spoiler]

Since we actually have statements/feats that thoroughly back this up.

- Base Goku didn't nothing impressive in Freeza Arc, he is just much stronger than SS Gohan.
- Beerus in Monaka's suit is conveniently handicapped to Base Goku's level, when he normally can beat even SSGSS with ease.
- Gotenks and Boo are fodder to SSG. Multiply their power for.. thousands(?) and they still aren't anywhere near that level.

-Base Gohan was stronger than Piccolo so with SSJ he was still formidable just not as much as his Buu Arc Ultimate self. The, First Form Freeza dominates him completely. Then, Freeza powers up into his Final Form to be atleast 113x stronger than his First Form self and STILL loses. This would not be possible if Goku did not get thousands of times stronger. Remember, it was established earlier that Base Goku<Namek Freeza. So things look like this:
Base Goku(pre-ritual)<Namek Freeza<<<ROF Piccolo<ROF Base Gohan<<SSJ Gohan<<First Form Freeza<<Final Form Freeza<ROF Base Goku
such a thing would not be possible if he arbitrarily lost the power he attained against Beerus.
-Beerus was not actually using a ton of power yes. But the fact that he gave Beerus any entertainment shows how he is worlds above anything he could do before the ritual giving more evidence he retained the boost against Beerus.
-Yes, but I am not saying that Base Goku>SSG. On the scale that we referenced where SSJ3 Goku is a 400 then SSJ3 Gotenks would have to be 3,000-4,000. And yet, COpy Vegeta who was even with Base Goku wins in possibly the most dominant fight we have seen in all of DBS. Base Vegeta was WORLDS above SSJ3 Gotenks. This does not corroborate with the 1,000 number you gave where pre-ritual SSJ3 Goku was 400.

[ankokudaishogun]

to fight anything stronger than a SS3 like, say, a Fusion SS3, he'd be forced to use God Ki

I don't think the quality of the ki is what makes the difference in this case. It was never said there is a limit for normal ki for Saiyans.

Most likely there is no real upper POTENTIAL limit for Normal Ki in Saiyans.

God Ki is much stronger than Normal Ki(whether it be due quality, methodology or whatever doesn't matter).

Faced with an opponent stronger than his Normal Ki CURRENT Limit, Copy-Vegeta went and used God Ki


By the way, do you believe Base Cabba being stronger than SS3 Gotenks? Because Vegeta stated him and Cabba were more or less matched in base form, and urged him to use Super Saiyan.
It wouldn't make any sense for Vegeta to no use his real power against Cabba and state they were matched.
And we know from Copy-Vegeta that Vegeta can become stronger than SS3 Gotenks without outward transformations.

Therefore, either Cabba is stronger than SS3 Gotenks or Vegeta(and therefore Goku) have a "normal" Base State(and Cabba's matches Vegeta's) and a "powered-up" Base State.
A change in Ki Quality(read: going God Ki) is the only explanation for such difference.

[Miracles]

I really don't understand what you are arguing if you concede that Goku retained the power of SSG as a SSJ.

There's nothing indicating that Goku's attack was weaker than his red form's previous assaults. It pushed back Beerus but did no damage which is expected of somebody way stronger than you. Beerus was challenging Goku to go further than SSG so he was using more power during that squabble. Hence why he mentions again "you made me use this much of my power" after that squabble.

Also, this comment you keep referencing that he said something like "You can't hit me like this" implying that he can't be hit because of being in SSJ, didn't actually happen. The closest thing to that was Beerus saying "That won't be able to reach me" as Goku fires a KHH and Beerus then says "Did you forget I can nullify energy?"

No that statement is real, the subs I watched fits inline with what happened cause SSJ Goku's ki attacks didn't hit Beerus in that frame of time. Even got KO'd by Beerus hence why Beerus questions if he has god in him.
Beerus stating Goku making him use this much power is for the ENTIRETY of the fight [red and SSJ].I didn't concede anything either cause I never stated Goku didn't retain god.
I'm telling you SSJ was NOT stronger than god which is what you claim. Proven by the fact of his dominance over SSJ compared to red.
Even questioning if Goku has red anymore while in SSJ. These are the facts, you got fan explanations without confirmation of why you think SSJ is stronger than red.

[theherodjl]

I think the fact that Goku eventually flaired back up to SSJG proves that Goku wasn't at the same power or stronger than SSJG from just using SSJ as a substitute. The Saiyans have always exhibited the ability to pull out power straight from their tailed-asses during fights, but it was never a permanent thing that carried over in a consistent manner. For example, Base Gohan in M10 had the strength to combat SSJ Broly(which should be impossible if SSJ is a static multiplier) so I think that it is proof of Gohan being able to 'borrow' power from his SSJ form without actually activating it. The same concept could apply in Base Goku somehow not getting outright murdered by LSSJ Broly's blast: he was drawing on some of SSJ's power to be able to handle that attack, but didn't have access to the full power of SSJ until he activated it. I think this very much applies to BOG SSJ Goku seemingly having the power of SSJG; SSJ Goku was reaching out to the power of SSJG, but didn't quite have the full power of SSJG.

[Marlowe89]

Surprised to see this thread floating around; I used to frequent the In-Universe Discussion subforum fairly often, but switched over to the other subforum because I didn't like where some of these topics were going. It would appear that my apprehensions weren't misplaced.

Anyway, both the anime and manga are super explicit about this. Goku was said to have reached the "level of the gods" only after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue during the anime's exhibition match of the US arc, which is the same Japanese term Beerus used to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's strength in the BoG arc. Moreover, the manga's exhibition match included that exact line when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan God directly.

The logical and coherent takeaway from this is that none of the golden forms could possibly, remotely possess the same level of power described in BoG. Some would argue that this implies a retcon, but I'm not interested in touching on that in this thread -- no matter how it's rationalized, the dialogue is expressly clear regardless unless you argue that it somehow meant two completely different things both times it was used, which is wildly implausible at best and outright false at worst.

[PFM18]

I really don't understand what you are arguing if you concede that Goku retained the power of SSG as a SSJ.

There's nothing indicating that Goku's attack was weaker than his red form's previous assaults. It pushed back Beerus but did no damage which is expected of somebody way stronger than you. Beerus was challenging Goku to go further than SSG so he was using more power during that squabble. Hence why he mentions again "you made me use this much of my power" after that squabble.

Also, this comment you keep referencing that he said something like "You can't hit me like this" implying that he can't be hit because of being in SSJ, didn't actually happen. The closest thing to that was Beerus saying "That won't be able to reach me" as Goku fires a KHH and Beerus then says "Did you forget I can nullify energy?"

No that statement is real, the subs I watched fits inline with what happened cause SSJ Goku's ki attacks didn't hit Beerus in that frame of time. Even got KO'd by Beerus hence why Beerus questions if he has god in him.
Beerus stating Goku making him use this much power is for the ENTIRETY of the fight [red and SSJ].I didn't concede anything either cause I never stated Goku didn't retain god.
I'm telling you SSJ was NOT stronger than god which is what you claim. Proven by the fact of his dominance over SSJ compared to red.
Even questioning if Goku has red anymore while in SSJ. These are the facts, you got fan explanations without confirmation of why you think SSJ is stronger than red.

OK then give me a time stamp when it happened in the episode. I had just rewatched 13 and 14. Beerus never implies Goku was unable to hit him because he was in SSJ and not SSG.

Surprised to see this thread floating around; I used to frequent the In-Universe Discussion subforum fairly often, but switched over to the other subforum because I didn't like where some of these topics were going. It would appear that my apprehensions weren't misplaced.

Anyway, both the anime and manga are super explicit about this. Goku was said to have reached the "level of the gods" only after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue during the anime's exhibition match of the US arc, which is the same Japanese term Beerus used to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's strength in the BoG arc. Moreover, the manga's exhibition match included that exact line when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan God directly.

The logical and coherent takeaway from this is that none of the golden forms could possibly, remotely possess the same level of power described in BoG. Some would argue that this implies a retcon, but I'm not interested in touching on that in this thread -- no matter how it's rationalized, the dialogue is expressly clear regardless unless you argue that it somehow meant two completely different things both times it was used, which is wildly implausible at best and outright false at worst.

This is possibly the most condescending post I have ever seen on this forum. I won't debunk your poor argument since you say you don't even want to look in this subforum.

[Miracles]

OK then give me a time stamp when it happened in the episode. I had just rewatched 13 and 14. Beerus never implies Goku was unable to hit him because he was in SSJ and not SSG.

Bro, "can't reach me" or "can't hit me" is pretty much the same thing. Translators translate words differently but they still have the same meaning.
SSJ Goku was bodied badly by Beerus and the real game changer is when Beerus questioned if he has god powers [that wording is in all translations]. That shows the difference.

[PFM18]

OK then give me a time stamp when it happened in the episode. I had just rewatched 13 and 14. Beerus never implies Goku was unable to hit him because he was in SSJ and not SSG.

Bro, "can't reach me" or "can't hit me" is pretty much the same thing. Translators translate words differently but they still have the same meaning.
SSJ Goku was bodied badly by Beerus and the real game changer is when Beerus questioned if he has god powers [that wording is in all translations]. That shows the difference.

Bro, when Beerus said "can't reach me" he immediately followed that by saying "did you forget I can nullify energy?" to say that this is evidence that Goku got weaker as a SSJ seems pretty disingenuous. If you don't completely take the statement out of context, you can see that line was there to establish that Goku's ki attacks wouldn't work against Beerus not that Goku randomly got weaker even though it was thoroughly established he was atleast the same strength.

Goku being bodied is not evidence that Goku got weaker. He was going to be bodied either way. Beerus is far stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from the ToP. So he is literally thousands of times stronger than SSG Goku during this time so it is an automatic that Beerus is going to win in dominating fashion so it is hardly evidence that he got weaker. Beerus stated that Goku had made the power his own, and then Goku stated he was the same strength as a SSJ as when he was a SSG. Then, Beerus provokes Goku to pull out more power and he pushes Beerus back and surpasses SSG. Again, Beerus smiling and asking if Goku has the power of a god, he is not actually questioning it since he had already established SSG=SSJ post-ritual. He was provoking Goku to draw out more power and he succeeded in doing that.(Hence why he smiled and said "that's it" when Goku powered up.) Again, not evidence that Goku got weaker in the slightest. On top of all of this, the title of the episode that Goku drops out of SSG into SSJ, is literally "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." Like seriously, I don't know how they could have made things any more clear.

[Hugo Boss]

By the way, do you believe Base Cabba being stronger than SS3 Gotenks?

I think that despite what Vegeta told Cabba during that fight, he has clearly demonstrated superiority over his student in the same forms, specially when he took SS Cabba’s punch in his forehead like nothing. Couple that with SS3 Gotenks’ power being not too different, if not below when he fought Boo due to slacking in his training, and Vegeta getting even stronger than when he fought Hit. So, I would say it’s possible that Base Cabba is stronger than SS3 Gotenks or vice-versa. I honestly don’t know for sure.

you think that Goku didn't retain the boost to make his SSJ~SSG BoG but at the same time you inconspicuously make him 1000x stronger after the ritual? And his SSJ isn't as strong as BoG SSG like Beerus and Goku had stated?

Goku got stronger after experiencing SSG and fighting with Beerus. That’s a arbitrary boost I made up that is lower than another arbitrary boost I made up for SSG, again for clarification purposes.

such a thing would not be possible if he arbitrarily lost the power he attained against Beerus.

Just to highlight it, because this basically sums up your argument. You think something is impossible based on some math logic you seem to have build up. Make Goku a million times stronger and I will just make SSG a trillion times stronger. Since this will go forever in circles, let’s end it here.

Goku was said to have reached the "level of the gods" only after transforming into Super Saiyan Blue during the anime's exhibition match of the US arc, which is the same Japanese term Beerus used to describe Super Saiyan God Goku's strength in the BoG arc. Moreover, the manga's exhibition match included that exact line when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan God directly.

The logical and coherent takeaway from this is that none of the golden forms could possibly, remotely possess the same level of power described in BoG.

Precise as always. I honestly isn’t surprised given that in reality powerlevel matters are lighting rods for low quality discussions. I hope this changes.

[Miracles]

Bro, when Beerus said "can't reach me" he immediately followed that by saying "did you forget I can nullify energy?" to say that this is evidence that Goku got weaker as a SSJ seems pretty disingenuous. If you don't completely take the statement out of context, you can see that line was there to establish that Goku's ki attacks wouldn't work against Beerus not that Goku randomly got weaker even though it was thoroughly established he was atleast the same strength.

Goku being bodied is not evidence that Goku got weaker. He was going to be bodied either way. Beerus is far stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from the ToP. So he is literally thousands of times stronger than SSG Goku during this time so it is an automatic that Beerus is going to win in dominating fashion so it is hardly evidence that he got weaker. Beerus stated that Goku had made the power his own, and then Goku stated he was the same strength as a SSJ as when he was a SSG. Then, Beerus provokes Goku to pull out more power and he pushes Beerus back and surpasses SSG. Again, Beerus smiling and asking if Goku has the power of a god, he is not actually questioning it since he had already established SSG=SSJ post-ritual. He was provoking Goku to draw out more power and he succeeded in doing that.(Hence why he smiled and said "that's it" when Goku powered up.) Again, not evidence that Goku got weaker in the slightest. On top of all of this, the title of the episode that Goku drops out of SSG into SSJ, is literally "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." Like seriously, I don't know how they could have made things any more clear.

You keep missing the point...Beerus EMPHASIZED that Goku's power in SSJ should "not be like this..." and questions if he has SSJG WHILE Beerus is dominating him.
If Goku was stronger in SSJ there would be no questions about it.

[shadowfox87]

My rationalization was that when he absorbed the power of the SSG into his body, he was able to pull out only a fraction (1/10) of it in his SSJ form. That is, he had to fight Beerus to save Earth. He dug deep to extract a fraction of the god ki he had in SSG into his SSJ form. This allowed him to keep fighting Beerus in SSJ even though he isn't in SSG. This is also why Piccolo can still sense his ki since, he's got mostly mortal ki. He's only using a fraction of the god ki. It's basically like an incomplete SSB form. Later on, he trains with Whis and is able to extract 100% of that god ki into his SSJ, that's what creates SSB. This would validate that SSJ (with no god ki) < SSG < SSB but SSJ (with some god ki) ~ SSG < SSB.

[PFM18]

Just to highlight it, because this basically sums up your argument. You think something is impossible based on some math logic you seem to have build up. Make Goku a million times stronger and I will just make SSG a trillion times stronger. Since this will go forever in circles, let’s end it here.

Yeah except not at all. Your argument essentially boils down to "Well Whis made a comment about the level of the gods being a castle and Goku/Vegeta were just a stump. So obviously this means that Goku lost the power he had against Beerus." Which is probably the most convoluted,arbitrary way they could have possibly explained that Goku lost the insane power he had against Beerus as a golden SSJ. Why would they say that in such a convoluted way? They didn't. They were literally just explaining how much stronger the Gods of Destruction were than them.

My argument is literally just going off of the explicit statements and showings from BoG, and then reiterating how this was reinforced throughout the series.(Not contradicted like some people seem to think) The portion you quoted was me explaining one of these events that would only be possible if Goku kept the boost that made his SSJ atleast as strong or stronger than he was against Beerus.

Bro, when Beerus said "can't reach me" he immediately followed that by saying "did you forget I can nullify energy?" to say that this is evidence that Goku got weaker as a SSJ seems pretty disingenuous. If you don't completely take the statement out of context, you can see that line was there to establish that Goku's ki attacks wouldn't work against Beerus not that Goku randomly got weaker even though it was thoroughly established he was atleast the same strength.

Goku being bodied is not evidence that Goku got weaker. He was going to be bodied either way. Beerus is far stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku from the ToP. So he is literally thousands of times stronger than SSG Goku during this time so it is an automatic that Beerus is going to win in dominating fashion so it is hardly evidence that he got weaker. Beerus stated that Goku had made the power his own, and then Goku stated he was the same strength as a SSJ as when he was a SSG. Then, Beerus provokes Goku to pull out more power and he pushes Beerus back and surpasses SSG. Again, Beerus smiling and asking if Goku has the power of a god, he is not actually questioning it since he had already established SSG=SSJ post-ritual. He was provoking Goku to draw out more power and he succeeded in doing that.(Hence why he smiled and said "that's it" when Goku powered up.) Again, not evidence that Goku got weaker in the slightest. On top of all of this, the title of the episode that Goku drops out of SSG into SSJ, is literally "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." Like seriously, I don't know how they could have made things any more clear.

You keep missing the point...Beerus EMPHASIZED that Goku's power in SSJ should "not be like this..." and questions if he has SSJG WHILE Beerus is dominating him.
If Goku was stronger in SSJ there would be no questions about it.

No you are missing the point. Beerus never ACTUALLY questioned whether Goku actually had the SSG power. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. He had already said that he had retained the power he had as a SSG, and Goku confirmed he didn't feel any weaker at all. Then Beerus wanted more out of Goku so he constantly kept pushing Goku to push past his limits, and he did. That was the narrative point of the scene. Not to just randomly make Goku weaker than SSG even though Beerus and him both agreed he was the same strength.

There were no questions about it. And if there were questions about if he was as strong as SSG, those questions were vanquished when Goku had pushed him back and Beerus literally said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as Goku was in his golden SSJ form.

Again, Beerus would dominate him regardless of whether he retained the SSG power or not. This is evidence of nothing.

[Miracles]

No you are missing the point. Beerus never ACTUALLY questioned whether Goku actually had the SSG power. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. He had already said that he had retained the power he had as a SSG, and Goku confirmed he didn't feel any weaker at all. Then Beerus wanted more out of Goku so he constantly kept pushing Goku to push past his limits, and he did. That was the narrative point of the scene. Not to just randomly make Goku weaker than SSG even though Beerus and him both agreed he was the same strength.

There were no questions about it. And if there were questions about if he was as strong as SSG, those questions were vanquished when Goku had pushed him back and Beerus literally said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as Goku was in his golden SSJ form.

Again, Beerus would dominate him regardless of whether he retained the SSG power or not. This is evidence of nothing.

Beerus didn't dominate Red like he did SSJ. Red put up the better fight. Beerus was excited about fighting red yet questions SSJ even having such power.
You claim SSJ was stronger when there is NO EVIDENCE of that whatsoever.
You are using headcannons by riding on Beerus "provoking" SSJ Goku but that doesn't show or state that SSJ is stronger than god.

[PFM18]

No you are missing the point. Beerus never ACTUALLY questioned whether Goku actually had the SSG power. He was just provoking Goku to draw out more power. He had already said that he had retained the power he had as a SSG, and Goku confirmed he didn't feel any weaker at all. Then Beerus wanted more out of Goku so he constantly kept pushing Goku to push past his limits, and he did. That was the narrative point of the scene. Not to just randomly make Goku weaker than SSG even though Beerus and him both agreed he was the same strength.

There were no questions about it. And if there were questions about if he was as strong as SSG, those questions were vanquished when Goku had pushed him back and Beerus literally said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as Goku was in his golden SSJ form.

Again, Beerus would dominate him regardless of whether he retained the SSG power or not. This is evidence of nothing.

Beerus didn't dominate Red like he did SSJ. Red put up the better fight. Beerus was excited about fighting red yet questions SSJ even having such power.

First of all, yes he did. Do you not remember Beerus KO'ing Goku and Goku falling into the ocean and his wound healed? Beerus said it was over and what not? So yeah thats just factually incorrect.

Beerus says "Does the power of a god not lie within you?" He knows that the same power DOES lie within him so he expects better. (They had already established Goku had that power.)He is talking crap to Goku to provoke Goku into drawing out more power. AND IT WORKS. Beerus is smiling when he "questions" Goku, and then Goku powers up further and Beerus says "that's it" as he smiles implying he was TRYING to get that to happen and he made it. Then, Goku powers up AGAIN,now showing the red aura from SSG but still in SSJ, and pushes Beerus back. he never actually questioned if Goku could hit him, that was established early in the fight when he dropped out. Goku could still hit him and he stated that Goku was at the same power and Goku confirmed it.

You claim SSJ was stronger when there is NO EVIDENCE of that whatsoever.

Yeah lol no evidence. except:
-Goku and Beerus both agree that Goku had lost no power and was at the same strength. Goku didn't even NOTICE THAT HE WASN'T SSG ANYMORE.
-after being equal with SSG, he powers up further twice and pushes back Beerus where he couldn't before, in that moment he surpassed SSG.
-the episode title is LITERALLY "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" When Goku "drops" from SSG to SSJ.

It really is extremely clear the writers might as well have been screaming it at us. If anything, there's no evidence whatsoever that he got weaker. I could understand if you thought they were equal, but seriously there's nothing suggesting he got weaker.

Again, Beerus winning at any point is not evidence whatsoever that Goku got weaker. Beerus was going to win regardless given his overwhelming power advantage.

[Miracles]

First of all, yes he did. Do you not remember Beerus KO'ing Goku and Goku falling into the ocean and his wound healed? Beerus said it was over and what not? So yeah thats just factually incorrect.

Beerus says "Does the power of a god not lie within you?" He knows that the same power DOES lie within him so he expects better. (They had already established Goku had that power.)He is talking crap to Goku to provoke Goku into drawing out more power. AND IT WORKS. Beerus is smiling when he "questions" Goku, and then Goku powers up further and Beerus says "that's it" as he smiles implying he was TRYING to get that to happen and he made it. Then, Goku powers up AGAIN,now showing the red aura from SSG but still in SSJ, and pushes Beerus back. he never actually questioned if Goku could hit him, that was established early in the fight when he dropped out. Goku could still hit him and he stated that Goku was at the same power and Goku confirmed it.

You claim SSJ was stronger when there is NO EVIDENCE of that whatsoever.

Yeah lol no evidence. except:
-Goku and Beerus both agree that Goku had lost no power and was at the same strength. Goku didn't even NOTICE THAT HE WASN'T SSG ANYMORE.
-after being equal with SSG, he powers up further twice and pushes back Beerus where he couldn't before, in that moment he surpassed SSG.
-the episode title is LITERALLY "Surpass a Super Saiyan God" When Goku "drops" from SSG to SSJ.

It really is extremely clear the writers might as well have been screaming it at us. If anything, there's no evidence whatsoever that he got weaker. I could understand if you thought they were equal, but seriously there's nothing suggesting he got weaker.

Again, Beerus winning at any point is not evidence whatsoever that Goku got weaker. Beerus was going to win regardless given his overwhelming power advantage.

Beerus was looking for god power from Goku in SSJ. That's why he stated "This is the power of Super Saiyan god" Not that "SSJ surpassed SSJ god." You claimed that.
This is proof, Beerus questioning if Goku had god powers while in SSJ demonstrates BOG right about SSJ "not powering down all that much" from god.

[Desassina]

Base and SSJ go hand in hand to surpass the grades and numbered forms as the shortcuts that they are towards full power. It is evidenced by Cell having access to his full power but still using the equivalent of the grades in front of Trunks and against Gohan. Goku and Trunks were also SSJ3 level but Goku Black and Vegeta surpassed them with only SSJ. I would call the latter God SSJ because it reached the level of a God before SSJG.

In the Cell and Majin Boo arcs...

Base: 1 -> SSJ: 10 -> Grade II: 20 -> Grade III: 80 -> Full Power: 100
Base: 10 -> SSJ: 100 -> SSJ2: 200 -> SSJ3: 800 -> Ultimate: 1'000

The Grades were forgotten and the Numbered forms began their use. In Battle of Gods and the Universe 6 Tournament...

Base: 100 -> God SSJ: 1'000 -> SSJG: 10'000
Base/God: 1'000 -> SSJG: 10'000 -> SSJB: 100'000

The Numbered forms were forgotten. SSJ was used in the anime to reach SSJG, when Goku Black did the same in the manga, to eventually surpass it as SSJ Rosé.

[Hugo Boss]

The portion you quoted was me explaining one of these events that would only be possible if Goku kept the boost that made his SSJ atleast as strong or stronger than he was against Beerus.

Perhaps something like this?

[spoiler]Goku (Battle of Gods)
Normal - 1
SS - 50
SS2 - 100
SS3 - 400
SSG - 1,000,000,000

Gohan (Ressurrection F)
Normal - 50
SS - 2,500

Freeza (Ressurrection F)
1st form - 5,000
4th form - 600,000
Golden - 3,000,000,000

Goku (Ressurrection F)
Normal - 600,000
SS - 30,000,000
SSG - 1,000,000,000
SSGSS - 2,000,000,000[/spoiler]

[PFM18]

The portion you quoted was me explaining one of these events that would only be possible if Goku kept the boost that made his SSJ atleast as strong or stronger than he was against Beerus.

Perhaps something like this?

[spoiler]Goku (Battle of Gods)
Normal - 1
SS - 50
SS2 - 100
SS3 - 400
SSG - 1,000,000,000

Gohan (Ressurrection F)
Normal - 50
SS - 2,500

Freeza (Ressurrection F)
1st form - 5,000
4th form - 600,000
Golden - 3,000,000,000

Goku (Ressurrection F)
Normal - 600,000
SS - 30,000,000
SSG - 1,000,000,000
SSGSS - 2,000,000,000[/spoiler]

That makes more sense. That aligns with most things shown in DBS so I can't fault you for that. I still don't understand why you wouldn't just have what is shown in BoG where SSJ(post-ritual) ~ SSG BoG. Beerus and Goku agreed upon it and Beerus later confirmed it, the episode title says that Goku surpassed SSG as a SSJ essentially.

So if you have base Goku in ROF as 600K where base Goku in the Buu/Beginning of BoG arc is a 1. Does this mean you agree that Base Goku in ROF could beat anything in Z?(Minus SSJ Vegetto he's weird)

[Hugo Boss]

I still don't understand why you wouldn't just have what is shown in BoG where SSJ(post-ritual) ~ SSG BoG. Beerus and Goku agreed upon it and Beerus later confirmed it, the episode title says that Goku surpassed SSG as a SSJ essentially.

So if you have base Goku in ROF as 600K where base Goku in the Buu/Beginning of BoG arc is a 1. Does this mean you agree that Base Goku in ROF could beat anything in Z?(Minus SSJ Vegetto he's weird)

I think it’s common sense that Goku had god-like power as SS in the movie and in the anime, but I think the story still makes sense with him struggling to properly use god power until the training with Whis and Vegeta. The fight with Beerus was a deadly serious situation in which a Saiyan’s body usually responds accordingly. Once this harsh situation ceases, they lose that adrenalin and their body cool down. Either way, and the movie is more direct about it through Piccolo’s comment, the fight works as a very efficient training, so Goku always becomes better and gets at least to a middle ground between his peak during the fight and his peak before the fight. A well illustrated example of it is Goku’s fight with Jiren, he reached Ultra Instinct three times and even attained the completed version, but can’t use the form willingly after the fight. Even without mastering Ultra Instinct, Goku already realizes he got stronger.

Either way, I worked with these numbers to reconcile with less conservative approach of power gaps, since there was an impression this was impossible.

And.. I have no clue if Base Goku is stronger than anything in DBZ, I guess it’s possible.

[PFM18]

I still don't understand why you wouldn't just have what is shown in BoG where SSJ(post-ritual) ~ SSG BoG. Beerus and Goku agreed upon it and Beerus later confirmed it, the episode title says that Goku surpassed SSG as a SSJ essentially.

So if you have base Goku in ROF as 600K where base Goku in the Buu/Beginning of BoG arc is a 1. Does this mean you agree that Base Goku in ROF could beat anything in Z?(Minus SSJ Vegetto he's weird)

I think it’s common sense that Goku had god-like power as SS in the movie and in the anime, but I think the story still makes sense with him struggling to properly use god power until the training with Whis and Vegeta. The fight with Beerus was a deadly serious situation in which a Saiyan’s body usually responds accordingly. Once this harsh situation ceases, they lose that adrenalin and their body cool down. Either way, and the movie is more direct about it through Piccolo’s comment, the fight works as a very efficient training, so Goku always becomes better and gets at least to a middle ground between his peak during the fight and his peak before the fight. A well illustrated example of it is Goku’s fight with Jiren, he reached Ultra Instinct three times and even attained the completed version, but can’t use the form willingly after the fight. Even without mastering Ultra Instinct, Goku already realizes he got stronger.

Even though this is headcanon, it still seems a lot more reasonable than the convoluted explanation you came up with before. I suppose it is possible that given the nature of Saiyans he was forced into retaining the power given the dire situation and it left him afterwards. Then, the interpretation is he achieved an enormous boost in his training with Whis. Again, seems reasonable enough. It would make it possible to beat Final Form Freeza and entertain Beerus in Base like he did, while also still having his SSJ weaker than SSG. I do still disagree to some extent but this explanation does still align fairly well with the story.

Either way, I worked with these numbers to reconcile with less conservative approach of power gaps, since there was an impression this was impossible.

Yes, the severe downplayed numbers you gave before where his base wasn't even that much stronger than his previous SSJ3, would not make any sense given everything that happened in the show.

And.. I have no clue if Base Goku is stronger than anything in DBZ, I guess it’s possible.

I thought it would be a given since what you said shows Base Goku being 1,500x stronger than his SSJ3 pre-ritual self. Naturally, everybody in DBZ is less than 1500x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.