Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

[PFM18]

[quote+"Hugo Boss"]Since you entered speculative territory, let's do this. [/quote]

There is quite literally no speculation involved. I am not speculating that because of the 4 events that I mentioned Goku's SSJ must have surpassed SSG, I am saying this because DBS dedicated an episode and a half to establishing this fact. I am not basing it on things like SSJ3 Gotenks<Base Goku, those events reinforce the fact that SSJ>SSG. They wouldn't be possible without an enormous boost from this, especially considering that DBS established Namek Freeza>Base Goku, so it backs up the notion that SSJ>SSG, rather than establishing it in the first place.

1. SSJ Goku lands 2 punches on Beerus immediately after the SSG form ran out, to Beerus's surprise.
2. Goku doesn't even notice and says he didn't get any weaker.
3. Beerus beats up Goku and asks if the god power still lies within him, then Goku powers up and Beerus says "that's it" as he starts to smile implying Beerus was provoking Goku to draw out more power rather than actually questioning his level of power.
4. Goku overpowers Beerus briefly, pushing him back,and Beerus says "so this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as Goku is in his SSJ golden SSJ form.
5. Beerus comments afterwards that Goku made a "patchwerk SSG" and "made it your own and perfected it, forcing me to use this much of my power" not only confirming that he was in fact using SSG power, but he forced Beerus to use more power as a SSJ.
6. Goku powers up after being knocked out, and Beerus says that he won't be able to extinguish this "this guy" so easily. (While he's normal SSJ, implying he could have extinguished him more easily as a SSG.)
7. the episode title has "surpass Super Saiyan God" in the episode where Goku "drops out" of SSG and goes back into golden SSJ. Crunchyroll's thumbnail for the episode has golden SSJ in it as well.

The story is trying so hard to establish that Goku became stronger as a classic SSJ when he absorbed the power of SSG.

i dont think so, i think beyong god form has been definitely retconned from black Goku saga

Saiyan Beyond God was only a thing in the movies. Goku's base is weaker than SSG in DBS but his SSJ is stronger than it.

The only time something like that is mentioned is when Goku first reverts from SSG to SSJ and Beerus doesn't know what is going on. He says "the party is over" and "you don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God" things of that nature. He immediately realizes that he was wrong

No he doesn't, towards the end of the fight, as Beerus is dominating SSJ Goku, he tells him he can't beat him like this, he starts questioning if he has god powers. Even when he finally used god powers in SSJ he STILL didn't hit Beerus and just collapses. It's like BOG and Super said, The absorption of SSJG boosted all Goku's modes and he retained the form hence why Goku didn't "power down that much" from SSJG to SSJ.

Beeus was going to dominate Goku regardless of whether he had the SSG power or not. He made a comment about not being able to hit him, to which he just says right after that he can nullify energy attacks. It had nothing to do with Goku's power but rather he was just reminding Goku that he shouldn't use ki attacks since Beerus can nullify them. He asks Goku if he even has the god powers after it had just been established that he does,(Goku says he didn't get weaker and Beerus confirmed it) and then that prompted Goku to power up further and Beerus smiles and says "that's it." Beerus was just provoking Goku to draw out more power.

Goku collapsing is not evidence that he got weaker from SSG since again, SSG is nothing to Beerus and Goku was doomed to lose horribly either way. Goku didn't match Beerus in power until the 3rd UI Omen so he was far far below Beerus at this point.

[Hugo Boss]

There is quite literally no speculation involved. I am not speculating that because of the 4 events that I mentioned Goku's SSJ must have surpassed SSG, I am saying this because DBS dedicated an episode and a half to establishing this fact. I am not basing it on things like SSJ3 Gotenks<Base Goku, those events reinforce the fact that SSJ>SSG. They wouldn't be possible without an enormous boost from this, especially considering that DBS established Namek Freeza>Base Goku, so it backs up the notion that SSJ>SSG, rather than establishing it in the first place.

I’m aware that SS was in the realm of SSG’s power during Beerus’ fight, but I don’t think those ulterior events you cited require SS to be stronger than SSG. Since there is a large gap between Boo Arc characters and SSG, it’s perfectly possible that Base Goku is stronger than Gotenks or Boo while still being weaker than SSG as a SS3. Either way, in Survival Arc, the gods implied SS Goku is weaker than SSG.

[PFM18]

There is quite literally no speculation involved. I am not speculating that because of the 4 events that I mentioned Goku's SSJ must have surpassed SSG, I am saying this because DBS dedicated an episode and a half to establishing this fact. I am not basing it on things like SSJ3 Gotenks<Base Goku, those events reinforce the fact that SSJ>SSG. They wouldn't be possible without an enormous boost from this, especially considering that DBS established Namek Freeza>Base Goku, so it backs up the notion that SSJ>SSG, rather than establishing it in the first place.

I’m aware that SS was in the realm of SSG’s power during Beerus’ fight, but I don’t think those ulterior events you cited require SS to be stronger than SSG. Since there is a large gap between Boo Arc characters and SSG, it’s perfectly possible that Base Goku is stronger than Gotenks or Boo while still being weaker than SSG as a SS3. Either way, in Survival Arc, the gods implied SS Goku is weaker than SSG.

The SSG that Goku achieved during BoG was surpassed as a golden SSJ. This is not a matter of being "in the same realm" he vastly surpassed it. This was a result of the massive power increase from infusing the power in him.

When I say SSJ>SSG I mean strictly in terms of BoG and where they stand in comparison to each other sequentially, as in the level of power SSG had during that time compared to the level of power of SSJ during SSG. Obviously SSG is the superior transformation and yields a higher power boost. SSJ came immediately after where Goku gained a massive power boost, he surpassed the Super Saiyan God he just had. However, all else equal Goku has far more power in SSG than he does as a normal SSJ. I am not saying that current Goku's golden SSJ is stronger than his SSG. Obviously his SSG is stronger, it is the better form. So yes, I do agree that Base Goku is stronger than Gotenks while also his SSJ3 is inferior to SSG. At any given point in time Goku's forms are: SSB>SSG>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ of course.

Let me show what I posted on another forum to show you where I stand as far as the scaling in DBS.

[spoiler]First, I am starting off with the Buu saga to give an idea of how things evolve. For the sake of simplicity and readability,(I won't have 10 '0's at the end of everything) I will be using SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga as a 1.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 8 ##because SSJ1 Gotenks was said to be able to defeat Buu and using the SEG multipliers
Super Buu: 7 ##since Gotenks had a slight edge and Goku wouldn't even attempt to fight this Buu.
Ultimate Gohan: 12 ##dominated Buu and is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Buuhan: 19 ##just adding the values for Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu.
Base Vegetto: 25 ##doesn't give a very good idea of where Base Vegetto stands in the manga but he dominates Buuhan in the anime.
Super Vegetto:1250
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto: 10,000

Now this is where things start to come into view in Super. For 3 reasons, I have determined that SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegetto by a significant amount:
1. Goku says that fusion wouldn't work against the heavily suppressed Beerus on King Kai's planet.
2. Goku, upon achieving Super Saiyan god says that he didn't even know that a level of power like that could even exist.
3. The same Beerus that Goku said fusion wasn't enough for, had to power up further in order to fight evenly with SSG Goku

All of this assuming that Goku knows that he could go SSJ3 as Vegetto and knew where that power would stand. I think that is a fair assumption.

So where I see things standing looks like this:

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post ritual): 22,000
Base Goku: 440

Since there was implied to be a pretty large gap between SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto, I thought a 2x difference would be appropriate. Upon the SSG ritual expiring, Goku doensn't even notice and continues fighting. He doesn't notice that he is a normal SSJ until Beerus points it out to him. At this point he says that that is weird because he doesn't feel any weaker. Beerus explains that he must have infused the power within himself.(This is when he is in his SSJ form.)Afterwards he keeps fighting and eventually outperforms what he did as a SSG and the episode title outright says that he surpassed it. so a this point SSG Goku~SSJ Goku(post ritual). I do not subscribe to the notion that Goku's base was stronger than SSG from that point forward.

Then, Goku and Vegeta have intense training with Whis and gain a significant amount of power. When GOku shows up then he says that Vegeta has surpassed him and that his ki is unrecognizable from what it was before. Whis teaches them about god ki, and how to control their ki. So I think that it is fair to say that there was a large increase and another 2x increase would be appropriate:

ROF Base Goku: 880

This unbelievably powerful Goku corrobates with the fact that Freeza's first form now dominates everybody but he goes into his Final Form and still can't beat Base Goku.(since on Namek First Form->Final Form(50%) yielded a 113x boost from 530k->60M before he buffed up.) It stands to reason that this first form freeza got over a hundred times stronger upon going into his Final Form and he still lost to Goku.

Now, following the shenanigans of ROF, Goku and Vegeta train for 3 years in the ROSAT. Vegeta comments that they were approaching their limit and implied that their power increase was lower than expected and not a particularly dramatic increase. For this reason, I think an estimation of a 25% increase in power seems reasonable.

Base Goku U6 tournament: 1100

Disregarding the specifics that follow this, we know for certain that from U6 tourny->post Zamasu Arc, GOku got atleast 10x stronger because he was able to break Hit's time dimension without using Kaioken this time.(This being a stronger Hit mind you.) We can conclude that atleast a 10x increase was attained here.

Base Goku post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000

Goku briefly trains with Whis before the tournament of power starts. This was brief and not extremely intense so I believe it is fair to say that he got stronger but not to a significant extent. I estimate it to be about a 10% boost.

ToP Base Goku: 12,100

Making Goku over 12,000x stronger than his Buu arc SSJ3 self. This may seem by a lot but it is standard practice for this series. the difference between Buu arc and ToP arc Goku is astronomical but so is the difference between Goku in the Piccolo Jr arc compared to the Goku in the Buu Arc.

Now, as far as where Goku stands in his maximum output, we would have to know what the multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue is. We do not, so I will put together some headcanon based on what we know.

Since the wording of the form implies, it is somebody who has the power of a Super Saiyan God who further goes Super Saiyan. And, we can see based on GOku's fight with Kefla that it seemed like it was around a SSJ type boost from the previouos transformations he had. He went from being around equal to her in Base to needing Kaioken to compete with her when she goes Kaioken, so I think it is fair to say that the difference between SSG and SSB is large, but less than 50x. Based on this, I think SSB is 50x stronger than Goku's current Super Saiyan. So using this, where the scale is Buu arc SSJ3 Goku as a 1, I believe that:

ToP SSB Goku: roughly 30 Million

Before people bring up the whole premise that Base Goku>SSG, I think this was the case in the movies but not in DBS. Why?

1. Because When Beerus tells Goku that he infused the SSG power within himself, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form and at first only did about as good as he did as a SSG. If his base was on par with SSG, going Super Saiyan would make him dramatically stronger than he was as a SSG.
2. The narrator states that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God not when he was in base against Freeza, but when he turns SSB for the first time in DBS. This contradicts the idea of this "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff.
3. Narratively, it had to be changed. If Goku's base was stronger than his SSG form, then anybody who could compete with his Base form would also be SSG level. This would completely undermine the idea of Beerus wanting to find a rival in a SSG, because he could just go and fight any of Frost, Cabba or Magetta if that was the case. Or anybody in the entire series who competed with Base Goku. The premise of Beerus wanting a rival that is a SSG when people as strong as SSG are readily available would make no sense. They had to change the Base Goku>SSG thing once DBS rolled around and it wasn't just a couple movies. They had to have the entire rest of the series in mind.[/spoiler]

[Miracles]

Beeus was going to dominate Goku regardless of whether he had the SSG power or not. He made a comment about not being able to hit him, to which he just says right after that he can nullify energy attacks. It had nothing to do with Goku's power but rather he was just reminding Goku that he shouldn't use ki attacks since Beerus can nullify them. He asks Goku if he even has the god powers after it had just been established that he does,(Goku says he didn't get weaker and Beerus confirmed it) and then that prompted Goku to power up further and Beerus smiles and says "that's it." Beerus was just provoking Goku to draw out more power.

Goku collapsing is not evidence that he got weaker from SSG since again, SSG is nothing to Beerus and Goku was doomed to lose horribly either way. Goku didn't match Beerus in power until the 3rd UI Omen so he was far far below Beerus at this point.

"Not like this, you can't hit me"

Beerus clearly says Goku in his current state [SSJ] is not good enough. Beerus the whole time was looking for SSJG from before hence why he says "you don't have divine powers like this." Goku had to keep powering up to even reach god in the end and it STILL did nothing to Beerus. SSJG performed much better cause Beerus was simply impressed with Red the whole time.

[SSJgogeto]

"Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?"

Well, for me current base Goku is just above base Goku from BoG arc.

[PFM18]

Beeus was going to dominate Goku regardless of whether he had the SSG power or not. He made a comment about not being able to hit him, to which he just says right after that he can nullify energy attacks. It had nothing to do with Goku's power but rather he was just reminding Goku that he shouldn't use ki attacks since Beerus can nullify them. He asks Goku if he even has the god powers after it had just been established that he does,(Goku says he didn't get weaker and Beerus confirmed it) and then that prompted Goku to power up further and Beerus smiles and says "that's it." Beerus was just provoking Goku to draw out more power.

Goku collapsing is not evidence that he got weaker from SSG since again, SSG is nothing to Beerus and Goku was doomed to lose horribly either way. Goku didn't match Beerus in power until the 3rd UI Omen so he was far far below Beerus at this point.

"Not like this, you can't hit me"

Beerus clearly says Goku in his current state [SSJ] is not good enough. Beerus the whole time was looking for SSJG from before hence why he says "you don't have divine powers like this." Goku had to keep powering up to even reach god in the end and it STILL did nothing to Beerus. SSJG performed much better cause Beerus was simply impressed with Red the whole time.

Yeah I don't think that comment about divine powers actually happened I think you are mistaken. You say "STILL" as though it should be surprising that either of these transformations are going to do anything to Beerus. The episode was clearly trying to make it abundantly clear that SSJ>SSG. There is no such comment about "you aren't good enough" followed by "you don't have divine powers." At first Beerus thinks that Goku has lost power because his god aura disappeared but then he realized shortly afterwards that he was wrong. Beerus at one point asks if the god powers lie within him trying to provoke Goku as made clear by Beerus's smile followed by "that's it." Honestly I don't see how it could be much more clear than this episode.

Like I said before Beerus does say "does the power of a god not lie within you?" and "shouldn't you have more to offer than this?" followed by Goku powering up and Beerus smiling and saying "that's it." Clearly Beerus was trying to provoke Goku into unlocking more power and it worked. Then after that he powers up again when he pushes Beerus back with his punch, and that is when the battle finishes in the outer atmosphere.

[Hugo Boss]

The SSG that Goku achieved during BoG was surpassed as a golden SSJ. This is not a matter of being "in the same realm" he vastly surpassed it. This was a result of the massive power increase from infusing the power in him.

When I say SSJ>SSG I mean strictly in terms of BoG and where they stand in comparison to each other sequentially, as in the level of power SSG had during that time compared to the level of power of SSJ during SSG.

The key words here are “god level”. It’s a simple concept introduced in Beerus Arc with SSG and developed until Survival Arc with Ultra Instinct. SSG is the first step of god level while Ultra Instinct is currently the last. When I say SS was in the realm of SSG during Beerus’ fight, I’m saying he was using god-like power, which can be greater than his previous usage of SSG considering his last-ditch effort to nullify that high-dense energy. In another hand, SS Goku apparently didn't have god-like power during his match with Bergamo, giving the gods’ reaction to SSB.

[ankokudaishogun]

Post-ToP Base Goku as "Goku with Normal Ki" isn't stronger than BoG SSG Goku.

My opinion is that post-BoG, Goku could switch\use God Ki but wasn't able to FULLY utilize it- that's what "Beyond God" is in the anime: an incomplete Super Saiyan God.
But it's still something they have to willingly do, it's not their base state!

Goku and Vegeta still managed to ignite that God Ki into Super Saiyan Blue.
The reason Goku went Super Saiyan and not Blue at the end of BoG probably lies in the amount of God Ki he had left, enough to somehow keep up but not enough to fully transform into Blue. It might also have been fading.

During the U6 Tournament, Vegeta went full NORMAL Ki against Cabba, who was more or less on the same level as the aforementioned Normal Ki Base Vegeta.

During the Copy-Vegeta arc, both Goku and Vegeta still hadn't mastered SSG.
Copy-Vegeta went straight up to God Ki, which, while not a complete SSG, was still stronger than Gotenks.
Then he and Goku level it up to Blue.

At the time of ToP, Goku at last mastered God Ki enough to fully transform in Super Saiyan God.


Therefore, Post-ToP Base Normal Ki Goku is weaker than BoG SSG Goku

[Hugo Boss]

During the Copy-Vegeta arc, both Goku and Vegeta still hadn't mastered SSG.
Copy-Vegeta went straight up to God Ki, which, while not a complete SSG, was still stronger than Gotenks.
Then he and Goku level it up to Blue.

Don’t you think that in order to utilize SSB they should have mastered the form immediately before? That’s what I get from “Goku and Vegeta being able to use SSG without the help of the other Saiyans” implication. And why Vegeta would need god ki to beat Gotenks?

[PFM18]

The SSG that Goku achieved during BoG was surpassed as a golden SSJ. This is not a matter of being "in the same realm" he vastly surpassed it. This was a result of the massive power increase from infusing the power in him.

When I say SSJ>SSG I mean strictly in terms of BoG and where they stand in comparison to each other sequentially, as in the level of power SSG had during that time compared to the level of power of SSJ during SSG.

The key words here are “god level”. It’s a simple concept introduced in Beerus Arc with SSG and developed until Survival Arc with Ultra Instinct. SSG is the first step of god level while Ultra Instinct is currently the last. When I say SS was in the realm of SSG during Beerus’ fight, I’m saying he was using god-like power, which can be greater than his previous usage of SSG considering his last-ditch effort to nullify that high-dense energy. In another hand, SS Goku apparently didn't have god-like power during his match with Bergamo, giving the gods’ reaction to SSB.

When you say "SSJ was in the realm of SSG" and then saying "he was using god-like power" I believe you are thinking of God ki. Goku was not using God Ki when he fought Beerus as a golden SSJ as evidenced by Piccolo sensing his ki. It shouldnt be surprising that Goku wasnt using God Ki until he went SSB against Bergamo. Goku never used God ki as a normal SSJ and this Bergamo fighr was not an exception.

Goku didnt use God ki in golden SSJ but he did surpass his previous SSG level of power.

[Hugo Boss]

The SSG that Goku achieved during BoG was surpassed as a golden SSJ. This is not a matter of being "in the same realm" he vastly surpassed it. This was a result of the massive power increase from infusing the power in him.

When I say SSJ>SSG I mean strictly in terms of BoG and where they stand in comparison to each other sequentially, as in the level of power SSG had during that time compared to the level of power of SSJ during SSG.

The key words here are “god level”. It’s a simple concept introduced in Beerus Arc with SSG and developed until Survival Arc with Ultra Instinct. SSG is the first step of god level while Ultra Instinct is currently the last. When I say SS was in the realm of SSG during Beerus’ fight, I’m saying he was using god-like power, which can be greater than his previous usage of SSG considering his last-ditch effort to nullify that high-dense energy. In another hand, SS Goku apparently didn't have god-like power during his match with Bergamo, giving the gods’ reaction to SSB.

When you say "SSJ was in the realm of SSG" and then saying "he was using god-like power" I believe you are thinking of God ki. Goku was not using God Ki when he fought Beerus as a golden SSJ as evidenced by Piccolo sensing his ki. It shouldnt be surprising that Goku wasnt using God Ki until he went SSB against Bergamo. Goku never used God ki as a normal SSJ and this Bergamo fighr was not an exception.

Goku didnt use God ki in golden SSJ but he did surpass his previous SSG level of power.

No, god-like power is not the same thing as god ki. It’s about level of strength. SS Goku had godly strength when he fought Beerus but he didn’t had such strength when he fought Bergamo.

[ankokudaishogun]

During the Copy-Vegeta arc, both Goku and Vegeta still hadn't mastered SSG.
Copy-Vegeta went straight up to God Ki, which, while not a complete SSG, was still stronger than Gotenks.
Then he and Goku level it up to Blue.

Don’t you think that in order to utilize SSB they should have mastered the form immediately before?

Not necessarily: the underlining idea is that Blue=Super Saiyan+sufficient amount of God Ki, while SSGod is 100% God Ki.
Therefore God is not necessary for Blue(at least in the anime: the manga clearly has no Beyond God and goes straight up to God. Such earlier mastery of God might be the reason behind them going for Mastered Blue instead of Kaiohken).
This would also work to explain the great improvement they(especially Vegeta) had against Black: they improved their God Ki mastery specifically, resulting in a better Blue.
It also explains Rosé being so strong: Black, being a soul of a God, had much greater mastery of God Ki and therefore his improvements were enormous.

That’s what I get from “Goku and Vegeta being able to use SSG without the help of the other Saiyans” implication. And why Vegeta would need god ki to beat Gotenks?

Because Vegeta's max Normal Ki is ~SS3, and Gotenks is at very least on the same level, probably stronger due being a fusion.
The next step for him is therefore going God Ki.

[Miracles]

Yeah I don't think that comment about divine powers actually happened I think you are mistaken. You say "STILL" as though it should be surprising that either of these transformations are going to do anything to Beerus. The episode was clearly trying to make it abundantly clear that SSJ>SSG. There is no such comment about "you aren't good enough" followed by "you don't have divine powers." At first Beerus thinks that Goku has lost power because his god aura disappeared but then he realized shortly afterwards that he was wrong. Beerus at one point asks if the god powers lie within him trying to provoke Goku as made clear by Beerus's smile followed by "that's it." Honestly I don't see how it could be much more clear than this episode.

Like I said before Beerus does say "does the power of a god not lie within you?" and "shouldn't you have more to offer than this?" followed by Goku powering up and Beerus smiling and saying "that's it." Clearly Beerus was trying to provoke Goku into unlocking more power and it worked. Then after that he powers up again when he pushes Beerus back with his punch, and that is when the battle finishes in the outer atmosphere.

That's the point, Beerus having to provoke Goku's SSJ, to release more power and question if SSJG is with him and telling him being at this level of power[ SSJ] won't hit him doesn't prove SSJ > SSJG. It clearly proves the opposite. Secondly I never stated Beerus said Goku was not good enough, I didn't put quotations around it, that's me putting what Beerus was saying in another way when he says being a SSJ won't touch him.

How was it clear that SSJ > SSJG when Beerus [While breathing hard] stated to Red Goku: "THIS is exactly like my dream. I commend you for becoming a SSJG!"
But states to SSJ Goku [while choking him out under water]: "I guess the divine power is not inside you! Your power should not be like that."
Then Beerus states to SSJ Goku: "But if you are STILL LIKE that [SSJ] you will not be able to hit me."
Then SSJ Goku finally shows the power of SSJG [but STILL doesn't hit Beerus]. Now if SSJ is stronger than SSJG, why would Beerus need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of it?

Beerus questioning, provoking, mocking and physical dominance over SSJ show that SSJ was weaker than SSJG.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta's max Normal Ki is ~SS3, and Gotenks is at very least on the same level, probably stronger due being a fusion.
The next step for him is therefore going God Ki.

Golden Freeza has normal ki and he is god level. I don’t think god ki is really necessary. Either way, Vegeta’s ki could just be higher than Gotenks’ ki. For instance, SS Goku didn’t have god ki when he fought Beerus, but he was god level too.

[PFM18]

The key words here are “god level”. It’s a simple concept introduced in Beerus Arc with SSG and developed until Survival Arc with Ultra Instinct. SSG is the first step of god level while Ultra Instinct is currently the last. When I say SS was in the realm of SSG during Beerus’ fight, I’m saying he was using god-like power, which can be greater than his previous usage of SSG considering his last-ditch effort to nullify that high-dense energy. In another hand, SS Goku apparently didn't have god-like power during his match with Bergamo, giving the gods’ reaction to SSB.

When you say "SSJ was in the realm of SSG" and then saying "he was using god-like power" I believe you are thinking of God ki. Goku was not using God Ki when he fought Beerus as a golden SSJ as evidenced by Piccolo sensing his ki. It shouldnt be surprising that Goku wasnt using God Ki until he went SSB against Bergamo. Goku never used God ki as a normal SSJ and this Bergamo fighr was not an exception.

Goku didnt use God ki in golden SSJ but he did surpass his previous SSG level of power.

No, god-like power is not the same thing as god ki. It’s about level of strength. SS Goku had godly strength when he fought Beerus but he didn’t had such strength when he fought Bergamo.

No distinction is made between "God Ki" and "god-like power." The gods reaction you are referring to was to SSB's God Ki. Goku hadn't exhibited God Ki prior to that so they were surprised. There is no reason to believe Goku was using some different "power" against Beerus as a SSJ/Base as when he was against Bergamo.

Yeah I don't think that comment about divine powers actually happened I think you are mistaken. You say "STILL" as though it should be surprising that either of these transformations are going to do anything to Beerus. The episode was clearly trying to make it abundantly clear that SSJ>SSG. There is no such comment about "you aren't good enough" followed by "you don't have divine powers." At first Beerus thinks that Goku has lost power because his god aura disappeared but then he realized shortly afterwards that he was wrong. Beerus at one point asks if the god powers lie within him trying to provoke Goku as made clear by Beerus's smile followed by "that's it." Honestly I don't see how it could be much more clear than this episode.

Like I said before Beerus does say "does the power of a god not lie within you?" and "shouldn't you have more to offer than this?" followed by Goku powering up and Beerus smiling and saying "that's it." Clearly Beerus was trying to provoke Goku into unlocking more power and it worked. Then after that he powers up again when he pushes Beerus back with his punch, and that is when the battle finishes in the outer atmosphere.

That's the point, Beerus having to provoke Goku's SSJ, to release more power and question if SSJG is with him and telling him being at this level of power[ SSJ] won't hit him doesn't prove SSJ > SSJG. It clearly proves the opposite. Secondly I never stated Beerus said Goku was not good enough, I didn't put quotations around it, that's me putting what Beerus was saying in another way when he says being a SSJ won't touch him.

How was it clear that SSJ > SSJG when Beerus [While breathing hard] stated to Red Goku: "THIS is exactly like my dream. I commend you for becoming a SSJG!"
But states to SSJ Goku [while choking him out under water]: "I guess the divine power is not inside you! Your power should not be like that."
Then Beerus states to SSJ Goku: "But if you are STILL LIKE that [SSJ] you will not be able to hit me."
Then SSJ Goku finally shows the power of SSJG [but STILL doesn't hit Beerus]. Now if SSJ is stronger than SSJG, why would Beerus need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of it?

Beerus questioning, provoking, mocking and physical dominance over SSJ show that SSJ was weaker than SSJG.

It was established right after Goku dropped out of SSG, that his SSJ was the same power. Beerus said he infused the power and Goku didn't notice that he dropped out of SSG and said he doesn't feel any weaker.

He didn't have to provoke Goku in order to show his SSG power, he provokes him to draw out more than SSG power. Beerus isn't actually questioning if Goku still has the SSG power, he had already established this was the case. He is trying to provoke Goku to become even stronger to make a better fight for himself. Hence the episode title prior being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God", by this point the premise was not to re-attain the power of SSG but to surpass it. Again, Beerus dominating Goku is evidence of absolutely nothing since regardless of what transformation Goku is using he isn't even close to Beerus at this point. So either way, Beerus is going to dominate him.

Beerus was excited against SSG and SSJ this is hardly an indication. I believe Whis made the comment about Beerus not having that much fun in a long time when Goku was fighting as a SSJ. Beerus makes a couple comments about "having to use this much of my power" when Goku is a SSJ since he is surprised he had to use that much, and he had to use more than he did against Goku's SSG. Again, Beerus doesn't need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of the previous SSG, he needs to incite Goku to show power beyond it. That was the point, Beerus wanted him to surpass that previous threshold and he was taunting him in order to do it.

[Miracles]

It was established right after Goku dropped out of SSG, that his SSJ was the same power. Beerus said he infused the power and Goku didn't notice that he dropped out of SSG and said he doesn't feel any weaker.

He didn't have to provoke Goku in order to show his SSG power, he provokes him to draw out more than SSG power. Beerus isn't actually questioning if Goku still has the SSG power, he had already established this was the case. He is trying to provoke Goku to become even stronger to make a better fight for himself. Hence the episode title prior being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God", by this point the premise was not to re-attain the power of SSG but to surpass it. Again, Beerus dominating Goku is evidence of absolutely nothing since regardless of what transformation Goku is using he isn't even close to Beerus at this point. So either way, Beerus is going to dominate him.

Beerus was excited against SSG and SSJ this is hardly an indication. I believe Whis made the comment about Beerus not having that much fun in a long time when Goku was fighting as a SSJ. Beerus makes a couple comments about "having to use this much of my power" when Goku is a SSJ since he is surprised he had to use that much, and he had to use more than he did against Goku's SSG. Again, Beerus doesn't need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of the previous SSG, he needs to incite Goku to show power beyond it. That was the point, Beerus wanted him to surpass that previous threshold and he was taunting him in order to do it.

"This is the power of SSJG" is what Beerus said not "this is beyond SSJG;" Beerus stating he needed to use this much power was against red and then at the end of the battle when Goku reverted back to base. But he questions SSJ Goku having SSJG god power DURING their fight. After KOing him in the water. Hence why he provokes SSJ Goku to show the god power [not beyond]. Super is in line with BOG, as SSJ did power down but not that much from god.

[PFM18]

It was established right after Goku dropped out of SSG, that his SSJ was the same power. Beerus said he infused the power and Goku didn't notice that he dropped out of SSG and said he doesn't feel any weaker.

He didn't have to provoke Goku in order to show his SSG power, he provokes him to draw out more than SSG power. Beerus isn't actually questioning if Goku still has the SSG power, he had already established this was the case. He is trying to provoke Goku to become even stronger to make a better fight for himself. Hence the episode title prior being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God", by this point the premise was not to re-attain the power of SSG but to surpass it. Again, Beerus dominating Goku is evidence of absolutely nothing since regardless of what transformation Goku is using he isn't even close to Beerus at this point. So either way, Beerus is going to dominate him.

Beerus was excited against SSG and SSJ this is hardly an indication. I believe Whis made the comment about Beerus not having that much fun in a long time when Goku was fighting as a SSJ. Beerus makes a couple comments about "having to use this much of my power" when Goku is a SSJ since he is surprised he had to use that much, and he had to use more than he did against Goku's SSG. Again, Beerus doesn't need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of the previous SSG, he needs to incite Goku to show power beyond it. That was the point, Beerus wanted him to surpass that previous threshold and he was taunting him in order to do it.

"This is the power of SSJG" is what Beerus said not "this is beyond SSJG;" Beerus stating he needed to use this much power was against red and then at the end of the battle when Goku reverted back to base. But he questions SSJ Goku having SSJG god power DURING their fight. After KOing him in the water. Hence why he provokes SSJ Goku to show the god power [not beyond]. Super is in line with BOG, as SSJ did power down but not that much from god.

You are taking him too literally. He doesn't have to use that exact verbatim for that to be what he was saying. It had already been established by both characters involved that Goku had retained the same power when he dropped out of SSG, and Beerus wasn't actually questioning if he had that power, he was trying to taunt Goku into drawing out more power and it worked. Again, that was the premise after he dropped out of SSG, hence the title being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." He KOs him in the water but again, this is not indicative of Goku becoming weaker since Beerus is so far beyond Goku either way.

But for the sake of the argument let's say Goku only re-attains the power of SSG when he powers up over the water and goes and punches Beerus and pushes him back and he has the SSG type aura, instead of what was actually stated, then if that is the case then he was a SSJ then and Beerus confirmed he was as strong as a SSG. Why would you think he didn't retain this level of power where his SSJ~SSG? There's no indication that he lost it from that point. Whether he surpassed it or equaled it during that moment isn't entirely important during that moment but we both agree that he atleast equaled it then. But he definitely seems to keep that power afterwards.

[Miracles]

It was established right after Goku dropped out of SSG, that his SSJ was the same power. Beerus said he infused the power and Goku didn't notice that he dropped out of SSG and said he doesn't feel any weaker.

He didn't have to provoke Goku in order to show his SSG power, he provokes him to draw out more than SSG power. Beerus isn't actually questioning if Goku still has the SSG power, he had already established this was the case. He is trying to provoke Goku to become even stronger to make a better fight for himself. Hence the episode title prior being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God", by this point the premise was not to re-attain the power of SSG but to surpass it. Again, Beerus dominating Goku is evidence of absolutely nothing since regardless of what transformation Goku is using he isn't even close to Beerus at this point. So either way, Beerus is going to dominate him.

Beerus was excited against SSG and SSJ this is hardly an indication. I believe Whis made the comment about Beerus not having that much fun in a long time when Goku was fighting as a SSJ. Beerus makes a couple comments about "having to use this much of my power" when Goku is a SSJ since he is surprised he had to use that much, and he had to use more than he did against Goku's SSG. Again, Beerus doesn't need to incite Goku to power up to show the power of the previous SSG, he needs to incite Goku to show power beyond it. That was the point, Beerus wanted him to surpass that previous threshold and he was taunting him in order to do it.

"This is the power of SSJG" is what Beerus said not "this is beyond SSJG;" Beerus stating he needed to use this much power was against red and then at the end of the battle when Goku reverted back to base. But he questions SSJ Goku having SSJG god power DURING their fight. After KOing him in the water. Hence why he provokes SSJ Goku to show the god power [not beyond]. Super is in line with BOG, as SSJ did power down but not that much from god.

You are taking him too literally. He doesn't have to use that exact verbatim for that to be what he was saying. It had already been established by both characters involved that Goku had retained the same power when he dropped out of SSG, and Beerus wasn't actually questioning if he had that power, he was trying to taunt Goku into drawing out more power and it worked. Again, that was the premise after he dropped out of SSG, hence the title being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." He KOs him in the water but again, this is not indicative of Goku becoming weaker since Beerus is so far beyond Goku either way.

But for the sake of the argument let's say Goku only re-attains the power of SSG when he powers up over the water and goes and punches Beerus and pushes him back and he has the SSG type aura, instead of what was actually stated, then if that is the case then he was a SSJ then and Beerus confirmed he was as strong as a SSG. Why would you think he didn't retain this level of power where his SSJ~SSG? There's no indication that he lost it from that point. Whether he surpassed it or equaled it during that moment isn't entirely important during that moment but we both agree that he atleast equaled it then. But he definitely seems to keep that power afterwards.

No one is arguing that Goku lost the power. Beerus definitely states in both BOG and Super that Goku retains the power and RED BLAZE [that means the power boost in all his forms and the SSJG form itself] of god. This is why BOG and Super says that Goku doesn't feel any different cause his SSJ mode didn't "power down all that much from god [BOG]." This was demonstrated in Super when Beerus was questioning Goku where is the divine power in SSJ. And telling Goku at that level [SSJ] he would not be able to hit Beerus. Beerus stated to Goku at the end that this is SSJG but the attack compared to his red form's previous assaults was weaker. This was evident as it did nothing to Beerus.

[PFM18]

"This is the power of SSJG" is what Beerus said not "this is beyond SSJG;" Beerus stating he needed to use this much power was against red and then at the end of the battle when Goku reverted back to base. But he questions SSJ Goku having SSJG god power DURING their fight. After KOing him in the water. Hence why he provokes SSJ Goku to show the god power [not beyond]. Super is in line with BOG, as SSJ did power down but not that much from god.

You are taking him too literally. He doesn't have to use that exact verbatim for that to be what he was saying. It had already been established by both characters involved that Goku had retained the same power when he dropped out of SSG, and Beerus wasn't actually questioning if he had that power, he was trying to taunt Goku into drawing out more power and it worked. Again, that was the premise after he dropped out of SSG, hence the title being "Surpass a Super Saiyan God." He KOs him in the water but again, this is not indicative of Goku becoming weaker since Beerus is so far beyond Goku either way.

But for the sake of the argument let's say Goku only re-attains the power of SSG when he powers up over the water and goes and punches Beerus and pushes him back and he has the SSG type aura, instead of what was actually stated, then if that is the case then he was a SSJ then and Beerus confirmed he was as strong as a SSG. Why would you think he didn't retain this level of power where his SSJ~SSG? There's no indication that he lost it from that point. Whether he surpassed it or equaled it during that moment isn't entirely important during that moment but we both agree that he atleast equaled it then. But he definitely seems to keep that power afterwards.

No one is arguing that Goku lost the power. Beerus definitely states in both BOG and Super that Goku retains the power and RED BLAZE [that means the power boost in all his forms and the SSJG form itself] of god. This is why BOG and Super says that Goku doesn't feel any different cause his SSJ mode didn't "power down all that much from god [BOG]." This was demonstrated in Super when Beerus was questioning Goku where is the divine power in SSJ. And telling Goku at that level [SSJ] he would not be able to hit Beerus. Beerus stated to Goku at the end that this is SSJG but the attack compared to his red form's previous assaults was weaker. This was evident as it did nothing to Beerus.

I really don't understand what you are arguing if you concede that Goku retained the power of SSG as a SSJ.

There's nothing indicating that Goku's attack was weaker than his red form's previous assaults. It pushed back Beerus but did no damage which is expected of somebody way stronger than you. Beerus was challenging Goku to go further than SSG so he was using more power during that squabble. Hence why he mentions again "you made me use this much of my power" after that squabble.

Also, this comment you keep referencing that he said something like "You can't hit me like this" implying that he can't be hit because of being in SSJ, didn't actually happen. The closest thing to that was Beerus saying "That won't be able to reach me" as Goku fires a KHH and Beerus then says "Did you forget I can nullify energy?"

[Hugo Boss]

When you say "SSJ was in the realm of SSG" and then saying "he was using god-like power" I believe you are thinking of God ki. Goku was not using God Ki when he fought Beerus as a golden SSJ as evidenced by Piccolo sensing his ki. It shouldnt be surprising that Goku wasnt using God Ki until he went SSB against Bergamo. Goku never used God ki as a normal SSJ and this Bergamo fighr was not an exception.

Goku didnt use God ki in golden SSJ but he did surpass his previous SSG level of power.

No, god-like power is not the same thing as god ki. It’s about level of strength. SS Goku had godly strength when he fought Beerus but he didn’t had such strength when he fought Bergamo.

No distinction is made between "God Ki" and "god-like power." The gods reaction you are referring to was to SSB's God Ki. Goku hadn't exhibited God Ki prior to that so they were surprised. There is no reason to believe Goku was using some different "power" against Beerus as a SSJ/Base as when he was against Bergamo.

God-like power is a term I just invented in order to make it easier to explain god level strength. There is nothing said about god ki during the fight with Bergamo. It’s literally “power that rivals the gods”, which implies Goku doesn’t have such power in SS, unlike when he fought Beerus.