Hugo Boss wrote:PFM18 wrote:There is quite literally no speculation involved. I am not speculating that because of the 4 events that I mentioned Goku's SSJ must have surpassed SSG, I am saying this because DBS dedicated an episode and a half to establishing this fact. I am not basing it on things like SSJ3 Gotenks<Base Goku, those events reinforce the fact that SSJ>SSG. They wouldn't be possible without an enormous boost from this, especially considering that DBS established Namek Freeza>Base Goku, so it backs up the notion that SSJ>SSG, rather than establishing it in the first place.
I’m aware that SS was in the realm of SSG’s power during Beerus’ fight, but I don’t think those ulterior events you cited require SS to be stronger than SSG. Since there is a large gap between Boo Arc characters and SSG, it’s perfectly possible that Base Goku is stronger than Gotenks or Boo while still being weaker than SSG as a SS3. Either way, in Survival Arc, the gods implied SS Goku is weaker than SSG.
The SSG that Goku achieved during BoG was surpassed as a golden SSJ. This is not a matter of being "in the same realm" he vastly surpassed it. This was a result of the massive power increase from infusing the power in him.
When I say SSJ>SSG I mean strictly in terms of BoG and where they stand in comparison to each other sequentially, as in the
level of power SSG had during that time compared to the
level of power of SSJ during SSG. Obviously SSG is the superior transformation and yields a higher power boost. SSJ came immediately after where Goku gained a massive power boost, he surpassed the Super Saiyan God he just had. However, all else equal Goku has far more power in SSG than he does as a normal SSJ. I am not saying that current Goku's golden SSJ is stronger than his SSG. Obviously his SSG is stronger, it is the better form. So yes, I do agree that Base Goku is stronger than Gotenks while also his SSJ3 is inferior to SSG. At any given point in time Goku's forms are: SSB>SSG>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ of course.
Let me show what I posted on another forum to show you where I stand as far as the scaling in DBS.
[spoiler]First, I am starting off with the Buu saga to give an idea of how things evolve. For the sake of simplicity and readability,(I won't have 10 '0's at the end of everything) I will be using SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga as a 1.
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 8 ##because SSJ1 Gotenks was said to be able to defeat Buu and using the SEG multipliers
Super Buu: 7 ##since Gotenks had a slight edge and Goku wouldn't even attempt to fight this Buu.
Ultimate Gohan: 12 ##dominated Buu and is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Buuhan: 19 ##just adding the values for Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu.
Base Vegetto: 25 ##doesn't give a very good idea of where Base Vegetto stands in the manga but he dominates Buuhan in the anime.
Super Vegetto:1250
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto: 10,000
Now this is where things start to come into view in Super. For 3 reasons, I have determined that SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegetto by a significant amount:
1. Goku says that fusion wouldn't work against the heavily suppressed Beerus on King Kai's planet.
2. Goku, upon achieving Super Saiyan god says that he didn't even know that a level of power like that could even exist.
3. The same Beerus that Goku said fusion wasn't enough for, had to power up further in order to fight evenly with SSG Goku
All of this assuming that Goku knows that he could go SSJ3 as Vegetto and knew where that power would stand. I think that is a fair assumption.
So where I see things standing looks like this:
Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post ritual): 22,000
Base Goku: 440
Since there was implied to be a pretty large gap between SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto, I thought a 2x difference would be appropriate. Upon the SSG ritual expiring, Goku doensn't even notice and continues fighting. He doesn't notice that he is a normal SSJ until Beerus points it out to him. At this point he says that that is weird because he doesn't feel any weaker. Beerus explains that he must have infused the power within himself.(This is when he is in his SSJ form.)Afterwards he keeps fighting and eventually outperforms what he did as a SSG and the episode title outright says that he surpassed it. so a this point SSG Goku~SSJ Goku(post ritual). I do not subscribe to the notion that Goku's base was stronger than SSG from that point forward.
Then, Goku and Vegeta have intense training with Whis and gain a significant amount of power. When GOku shows up then he says that Vegeta has surpassed him and that his ki is unrecognizable from what it was before. Whis teaches them about god ki, and how to control their ki. So I think that it is fair to say that there was a large increase and another 2x increase would be appropriate:
ROF Base Goku: 880
This unbelievably powerful Goku corrobates with the fact that Freeza's first form now dominates everybody but he goes into his Final Form and still can't beat Base Goku.(since on Namek First Form->Final Form(50%) yielded a 113x boost from 530k->60M before he buffed up.) It stands to reason that this first form freeza got over a hundred times stronger upon going into his Final Form and he still lost to Goku.
Now, following the shenanigans of ROF, Goku and Vegeta train for 3 years in the ROSAT. Vegeta comments that they were approaching their limit and implied that their power increase was lower than expected and not a particularly dramatic increase. For this reason, I think an estimation of a 25% increase in power seems reasonable.
Base Goku U6 tournament: 1100
Disregarding the specifics that follow this, we know for certain that from U6 tourny->post Zamasu Arc, GOku got atleast 10x stronger because he was able to break Hit's time dimension without using Kaioken this time.(This being a stronger Hit mind you.) We can conclude that atleast a 10x increase was attained here.
Base Goku post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000
Goku briefly trains with Whis before the tournament of power starts. This was brief and not extremely intense so I believe it is fair to say that he got stronger but not to a significant extent. I estimate it to be about a 10% boost.
ToP Base Goku: 12,100
Making Goku over 12,000x stronger than his Buu arc SSJ3 self. This may seem by a lot but it is standard practice for this series. the difference between Buu arc and ToP arc Goku is astronomical but so is the difference between Goku in the Piccolo Jr arc compared to the Goku in the Buu Arc.
Now, as far as where Goku stands in his maximum output, we would have to know what the multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue is. We do not, so I will put together some headcanon based on what we know.
Since the wording of the form implies, it is somebody who has the power of a Super Saiyan God who further goes Super Saiyan. And, we can see based on GOku's fight with Kefla that it seemed like it was around a SSJ type boost from the previouos transformations he had. He went from being around equal to her in Base to needing Kaioken to compete with her when she goes Kaioken, so I think it is fair to say that the difference between SSG and SSB is large, but less than 50x. Based on this, I think SSB is 50x stronger than Goku's current Super Saiyan. So using this, where the scale is Buu arc SSJ3 Goku as a 1, I believe that:
ToP SSB Goku: roughly 30 Million
Before people bring up the whole premise that Base Goku>SSG, I think this was the case in the movies but not in DBS. Why?
1. Because When Beerus tells Goku that he infused the SSG power within himself, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form and at first only did about as good as he did as a SSG. If his base was on par with SSG, going Super Saiyan would make him dramatically stronger than he was as a SSG.
2. The narrator states that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God not when he was in base against Freeza, but when he turns SSB for the first time in DBS. This contradicts the idea of this "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff.
3. Narratively, it had to be changed. If Goku's base was stronger than his SSG form, then anybody who could compete with his Base form would also be SSG level. This would completely undermine the idea of Beerus wanting to find a rival in a SSG, because he could just go and fight any of Frost, Cabba or Magetta if that was the case. Or anybody in the entire series who competed with Base Goku. The premise of Beerus wanting a rival that is a SSG when people as strong as SSG are readily available would make no sense. They had to change the Base Goku>SSG thing once DBS rolled around and it wasn't just a couple movies. They had to have the entire rest of the series in mind.[/spoiler]