Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

[PFM18]

No, god-like power is not the same thing as god ki. It’s about level of strength. SS Goku had godly strength when he fought Beerus but he didn’t had such strength when he fought Bergamo.

No distinction is made between "God Ki" and "god-like power." The gods reaction you are referring to was to SSB's God Ki. Goku hadn't exhibited God Ki prior to that so they were surprised. There is no reason to believe Goku was using some different "power" against Beerus as a SSJ/Base as when he was against Bergamo.

God-like power is a term I just invented in order to make it easier to explain god level strength. There is nothing said about god ki during the fight with Bergamo. It’s literally “power that rivals the gods”, which implies Goku doesn’t have such power in SS, unlike when he fought Beerus.

Yes, Goku isn't using God Ki in his SSJ and he doesn't have power that even remotely "rivals the gods" until he goes SSB. Goku's SSG during BoG didn't rival the Gods either so this makes sense. There was no such implication that Goku as a SSJ is weaker than he was during BoG.

[Hugo Boss]

No distinction is made between "God Ki" and "god-like power." The gods reaction you are referring to was to SSB's God Ki. Goku hadn't exhibited God Ki prior to that so they were surprised. There is no reason to believe Goku was using some different "power" against Beerus as a SSJ/Base as when he was against Bergamo.

God-like power is a term I just invented in order to make it easier to explain god level strength. There is nothing said about god ki during the fight with Bergamo. It’s literally “power that rivals the gods”, which implies Goku doesn’t have such power in SS, unlike when he fought Beerus.

Yes, Goku isn't using God Ki in his SSJ and he doesn't have power that even remotely "rivals the gods" until he goes SSB. Goku's SSG during BoG didn't rival the Gods either so this makes sense. There was no such implication that Goku as a SSJ is weaker than he was during BoG.

Note that this “power that rivals the gods” remark is the same that Iwan used in the manga to refer to SSG. More importantly, the anime already made explicit that SSG is a god in episode 10. In episode 15, Vegeta confirmed Goku surpassed SSG, and he even tells the audience SSG is the level of a god. Later, in episode 18, Whis implied Goku was much weaker than a god. So, it’s evident that SS Goku, since episode 18, is weaker than any version of SSG. Really, it can’t be more clear than that. This damn form has even “God” on its name.

[PFM18]

God-like power is a term I just invented in order to make it easier to explain god level strength. There is nothing said about god ki during the fight with Bergamo. It’s literally “power that rivals the gods”, which implies Goku doesn’t have such power in SS, unlike when he fought Beerus.

Yes, Goku isn't using God Ki in his SSJ and he doesn't have power that even remotely "rivals the gods" until he goes SSB. Goku's SSG during BoG didn't rival the Gods either so this makes sense. There was no such implication that Goku as a SSJ is weaker than he was during BoG.

Note that this “power that rivals the gods” remark is the same that Iwan used in the manga to refer to SSG. More importantly, the anime already made explicit that SSG is a god in episode 10. In episode 15, Vegeta confirmed Goku surpassed SSG, and he even tells the audience SSG is the level of a god. Later, in episode 18, Whis implied Goku was much weaker than a god. So, it’s evident that SS Goku, since episode 18, is weaker than any version of SSG. Really, it can’t be more clear than that. This damn form has even “God” on its name.

Really what coudn't be more clear isn't that Goku arbitrarily got way weaker for no reason and didn't have the same power in his SSJ form, but rather instead that even after Goku surpassed SSJ as a SSG, he was still nothing to Beerus. This is further reinforced when Whis talks about how much they have improved in such a short time, but still compares them to a tree stump where the "level of the gods" is the top of the castle. Goku as a SSG and as a SSJ in BoG were still nothing to Beerus and the GoDs is the point. Whis implying that Goku is much weaker than a God is not evidence that he lost the power, again, it is just evidence of how weak they are in comparison to Beerus. Even when Goku attains a new form in SSB, trains for 3 more years, and stacks Kaioken x10 on top of this form, he is STILL nothing to Beerus. Then he becomes atleast 10x stronger than that, and puts Kaioken x20 on top of it to become 200x stronger than the Goku during the U6 arc that was hundreds of times stronger than SSG during BoG, and he STILL is weaker than Beerus. That should tell you that it isn't that Goku got weaker arbitrarily from episode 18 onwards, but just that the gap is extremely large between them. Not sure why you mention that SSG is a God in episode 10, since that much is obvious and doesn't have much to with what we are discussing.

[Hugo Boss]

Not sure why you mention that SSG is a God in episode 10, since that much is obvious and doesn't have much to with what we are discussing.

Because when Whis/Vegeta are comparing Goku’s power to a god’s power, they are comparing Goku’s power to SSG’s power. When the gods compare SSG/SSGSS’s power to a god’s power, they are implying SS/SS2/SS3 doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god. SS Goku didn’t keep the powerlevel of a god after fighting Beerus because that is what the characters tell us since episode 18 until Survival Arc.

[PFM18]

Not sure why you mention that SSG is a God in episode 10, since that much is obvious and doesn't have much to with what we are discussing.

Because when Whis/Vegeta are comparing Goku’s power to a god’s power, they are comparing Goku’s power to SSG’s power. When the gods compare SSG/SSGSS’s power to a god’s power, they are implying SS/SS2/SS3 doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god. SS Goku didn’t keep the powerlevel of a god after fighting Beerus because that is what the characters tells us since episode 18 until Survival Arc.

No in ep 18 Whis was not randomly making a vague,convoluted assertion that Goku lost the power he had against Beerus. He was saying that they have made a lot of progress since his fight with Beerus (Hence him making a comment that they have now achieved the level where they can sense the ki of a god) but they are STILL nothing to a God of Destruction was his point. That proved to be true when Goku achieved a new form, trained for 3 years, and stacked kaiokenx10 on top of this new form, and STILL is inferior to the GoDs. (Including Beerus) so again, the story is not trying to tell you that Goku randomly lost the power he had against Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

Not sure why you mention that SSG is a God in episode 10, since that much is obvious and doesn't have much to with what we are discussing.

Because when Whis/Vegeta are comparing Goku’s power to a god’s power, they are comparing Goku’s power to SSG’s power. When the gods compare SSG/SSGSS’s power to a god’s power, they are implying SS/SS2/SS3 doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god. SS Goku didn’t keep the powerlevel of a god after fighting Beerus because that is what the characters tells us since episode 18 until Survival Arc.

No in ep 18 Whis was not randomly making a vague,convoluted assertion that Goku lost the power he had against Beerus. He was saying that they have made a lot of progress since his fight with Beerus (Hence him making a comment that they have now achieved the level where they can sense the ki of a god) but they are STILL nothing to a God of Destruction was his point. That proved to be true when Goku achieved a new form, trained for 3 years, and stacked kaiokenx10 on top of this new form, and STILL is inferior to the GoDs. (Including Beerus) so again, the story is not trying to tell you that Goku randomly lost the power he had against Beerus.

Whis made very clear in his exposition that “being able to sense the ki of a god” and “having the powerlevel of a god” are different things. And as he already explained, SSG is as much of a god as a God of Destruction. There is nothing convuloted about it. For some reason, you are trying to convince others that SSG isn’t included in “powerlevel of a god” range as if they should be exactly as powerful. That’s not required.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSJG is stated to be on the level of the Gods. There's nothing confusing about any of it. If Goku before obtaining Blue is not on the level of the Gods, then he's weaker than a version of himself that is on the level of the Gods.

Goku is only stated to have reached the level of the Gods in Blue during the TOP exhibition match. So he wasn't in any lower form that he showed.

On a separate point, there isn't anything differentiating the movie and anime but if people are really so desperate for them to be vastly different, then Goku had the same God powered Super Saiyan form during the BOG movie where he is 60% of Beerus. SSJ Goku during that fight was approximately at 60% of Beerus.

Goku couldn't have just became a Super Saiyan 2 or 3 and became stronger than Beerus so logistically the Super Saiyan form during BOG doesn't work the way that people are trying to claim it does. He was at full power during BOG. He wasn't at 1/8th of his full power during that fight. That Super Saiyan with all of Gods power is simply what went on to become Blue just like Black in the manga.

Super Saiyan God Goku: 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Base Goku(Saiyan Beyond God): 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku(God's Crimson Radiance): 6,000,000,050,000,000,000,000

Hypothetical Super Saiyan 2 Goku(God's Crimson Radiance): 6,000,000,100,000,000,000,000
Hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Goku(God's Crimson Radiance): 6,000,000,400,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 would've granted no significant increase since the point is that Goku's Super Saiyan form is the container for all of SSJG's power and it's running on that.

After the BOG fight, Goku's power became this:

Base Goku(Saiyan Beyond God): 1,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 50,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 100,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 400,000,000,000,000

And he once again got to the level of the Gods after learning to tap into God's power after Whis' training.

This scenario holds water and is coincides with what's shown not only in the movie, but in the anime with the statements of Whis and other Gods and in the manga with Black. What doesn't hold water is the idea that ROF Goku is multifold his BOG strength even though he's stated to be nowhere near the level that SSJG Goku was stated to be at. BOG Goku is on the level of the Gods, ROF Goku before Blue is not.

BOG Goku>ROF Goku before Blue. Period, it's not debatable. That line alone is enough to come to that conclusion and the only arguments saying otherwise are nonsensical since they have to claim that the line means something other than what it's actually saying.

[PFM18]

Because when Whis/Vegeta are comparing Goku’s power to a god’s power, they are comparing Goku’s power to SSG’s power. When the gods compare SSG/SSGSS’s power to a god’s power, they are implying SS/SS2/SS3 doesn’t have the powerlevel of a god. SS Goku didn’t keep the powerlevel of a god after fighting Beerus because that is what the characters tells us since episode 18 until Survival Arc.

No in ep 18 Whis was not randomly making a vague,convoluted assertion that Goku lost the power he had against Beerus. He was saying that they have made a lot of progress since his fight with Beerus (Hence him making a comment that they have now achieved the level where they can sense the ki of a god) but they are STILL nothing to a God of Destruction was his point. That proved to be true when Goku achieved a new form, trained for 3 years, and stacked kaiokenx10 on top of this new form, and STILL is inferior to the GoDs. (Including Beerus) so again, the story is not trying to tell you that Goku randomly lost the power he had against Beerus.

Whis made very clear in his exposition that “being able to sense the ki of a god” and “having the powerlevel of a god” are different things. And as he already explained, SSG is as much of a god as a God of Destruction. There is nothing convuloted about it. For some reason, you are trying to convince others that SSG isn’t included in “powerlevel of a god” range as if they should be exactly as powerful. That’s not required.

I never said that they were the same nor did I imply that they were the same. The point of what Whis was saying that was despite their progress, they still have a very long way to go to be on a God of Destruction's level. Hence the tree and the castle comparison. The story is establishing that there is still a huge gap between the GoDs and Goku/Vegeta despite the fact that they are both as strong or stronger than Goku in BoG.

I am not "for some reason" trying to convince people of some strange agenda that I have. I am simply explaining the story being told. When Whis says "the powerlevel of a God" he is referring to the Gods of Destruction and not SSG. It would make absolutely no sense for him to lump GoDs and SSG together since there is such an enormous gap between the two. They cannot both be in the same category if they are so extremely far apart. Beerus, and likely the other GoDS, are hundreds and probably thousands of times stronger than Goku's SSG in BoG. So it would make absolutely no sense for Whis to be referring to SSG when he mentions the gods. From the time of BoG:

-Goku does intense training with Whis and gains the ability to sense God Ki.
-gains a new, far more powerful form in SSB, and then trains for 3 years in the ROSAT
-Uses Kaiokenx10 to break Hit's time dimension, and then does it again much later except without Kaioken.(Indicating he got atleast 10x stronger
-following that he trains a little more with Whis before the ToP.
-Then he uses Kaiokenx20 during the ToP to become at bare minimum, 200 times stronger than his SSB U6 Tournament arc self

And he is STILL weaker than Beerus. So the gap between SSG Goku from BoG and Beerus's max powerprobably several thousand times and we know for an absolute fact that it is at bare minimum a 200x difference like I explained earlier. For these reasons, for Whis to be referring to SSG and the GoDs at the same time would make absolutely no sense.

Just like it makes no sense that he would be asserting in the most vague, convoluted way possible that Goku is weaker than his BoG self. Especially since Goku was so shocked that Vegeta caught up to him when they were basically even before Goku did the ritual. post-rituall Goku got a massive boost and Vegeta managed to catch up in just a matter of 6 months that is the point, it would make no sense in this scene if Goku arbitrarily got weaker for no reason, but was still complementing Vegeta on catching up to him. And so Goku SSJ post BoG>>Goku SSJ against Beerus.

BOG Goku>ROF Goku before Blue. Period, it's not debatable.

This is just false in every conceivable way but you take everything extremely literally, are very rude, and are very stubborn so I am not going to get into it with you.

[shadowfox87]

So all of this confusion stems from the scene where Goku fights Beerus in space as a SSJ. Here, Beerus states that he has unconsciously absorbed the power of an SSG and that the red blaze still burns within him. For me, Goku lost SSG but he "felt" what it was like to be in SSG, thus he was utilizing a little bit of god ki in SSJ. He still had regular ki which is why Piccolo could sense him. While this scene never happened in the manga, I understand why people want to acknowledge it and I think I've finally found a way to do that.

Therefore, just during that scene, temporarily

SSJ Goku (BoG space scene only) ~ SSG Goku (BoG)

Then, after training with Whis and learning more about ki control and god ki, he slowly outputed more god ki into his SSJ form which ultimately became what we know as SSB. Hence, the space scene was basically foreshadowing to an incomplete SSB form. However, his regular SSJ is still without god ki while SSB is now with god ki. His base did not increase in strength after the SSG ritual. His base remained the same. Both Vegeta and Goku trained with Whis in their bases. They got very strong, but their base did not increase to the same level as an SSG which is an enormously large boost.

Base Goku / Vegeta (RoF) > SSJ3 Gotenks (Buu saga)

Base Goku / Vegeta (ToP) < SSG Goku (BoG)

That's all I'm going to say. I've managed to now actually acknowledge the Beerus vs Goku scene in space without contradicting the later stuff in the anime. This logic works for me.

[Hugo Boss]

It would make absolutely no sense for him to lump GoDs and SSG together since there is such an enormous gap between the two.

The gap between SSG and Beerus doesn’t override what Whis says. The manga also touched on this subject. Iwne said the fight betweeen SSG and Toppo is on the same level as a fight between Gods of Destruction, despite Beerus effortlessly beating the completed version of SSGSS, that is stronger than SSGSS, that is stronger than SSG.

[PFM18]

It would make absolutely no sense for him to lump GoDs and SSG together since there is such an enormous gap between the two.

The gap between SSG and Beerus doesn’t override what Whis says. The manga also touched on this subject. Iwne said the fight betweeen SSG and Toppo is on the same level as a fight between Gods of Destruction, despite Beerus effortlessly beating the completed version of SSGSS, that is stronger than SSGSS, that is stronger than SSG.

There's no "override" involved. You just misinterpreted what Whis said. Whis cannot be referring to "the level of the Gods" as SSG while simultaneously referring to the Gods of Destruction who are thousands of times stronger. That just doesn't make sense.

Now you are referencing the manga in a discussion of the SSG infusion/absorption. That never happened in the manga and it is not applicable to this conversation about the anime. This talk of what is said in the manga has nothing to do with the anime. The manga has structured the power scaling completely differenly, there isn't a scene in space where Goku absorbs the SSG form.

without contradicting the later stuff in the anime

Ok but what exactly would be contradicted later in the anime? This explanation you came up with is just unnecessary

[shadowfox87]

without contradicting the later stuff in the anime

Ok but what exactly would be contradicted later in the anime? This explanation you came up with is just unnecessary

The contradiction is simple:

SSJ Goku (BoG) ~ SSG Goku (BoG) - space scene

then later:

SSJ < SSJ2 < SSJ3 < SSG < SSB (RoF and after)

Power scaling shifts everything downstream because of that one scene and if you believe that the Base ~ SSG in BoG, then every fighter that fights with Base or defeats them is now > BoG. If SSG was never shown in the anime, it would have been fine, but it was shown and due to that, things have changed.

[Hugo Boss]

Whis cannot be referring to "the level of the Gods" as SSG while simultaneously referring to the Gods of Destruction who are thousands of times stronger. That just doesn't make sense.

This is not a matter of making sense. The work tells you Super Saiyan God has the powerlevel of a god, both in the anime and in the manga. I’m not saying it makes sense a comparison between a form that needs at least three upgrades to be able to match a God of Destruction. This is only Dragon Ball Super’s fault.

[Meshack]

No. There’s nothing to suggest it

[PFM18]

Whis cannot be referring to "the level of the Gods" as SSG while simultaneously referring to the Gods of Destruction who are thousands of times stronger. That just doesn't make sense.

This is not a matter of making sense. The work tells you Super Saiyan God has the powerlevel of a god, both in the anime and in the manga. I’m not saying it makes sense a comparison between a form that needs at least three upgrades to be able to match a God of Destruction. This is only Dragon Ball Super’s fault.

No in this case DBS did nothing wrong. It is the viewer's responsibility to comprehend the work. It doesnt make sense to criticize it simply because you don't understand it.

Whis was literally just saying they arent close to the GoDs yet. This doesnt magically mean that Goku lost the power against Beerus. Otherwise the scene about Vegeta habing unrecognizable ki but "might" be stronger than Goku doesnt make sense. Theres quite the laundry list of things that would make no sense operating under the interpretation you have.

[Hugo Boss]

Whis was literally just saying they arent close to the GoDs yet. This doesnt magically mean that Goku lost the power against Beerus. Otherwise the scene about Vegeta habing unrecognizable ki but "might" be stronger than Goku doesnt make sense. Theres quite the laundry list of things that would make no sense operating under the interpretation you have.

Whis said “powerlevel of a god” (source: Crunchyroll). Vegeta got stronger but didn’t get as strong as SSG. There is nothing complicated about it. Care to provide the items of your laundry list?

[PFM18]

Whis was literally just saying they arent close to the GoDs yet. This doesnt magically mean that Goku lost the power against Beerus. Otherwise the scene about Vegeta habing unrecognizable ki but "might" be stronger than Goku doesnt make sense. Theres quite the laundry list of things that would make no sense operating under the interpretation you have.

Whis said “powerlevel of a god” (source: Crunchyroll). Vegeta got stronger but didn’t get as strong as SSG. There is nothing complicated about it. Care to provide the items of your laundry list?

Yes, obviously that was the verbatim that Whis used. I never disputed that. But he was clearly referring to the level of the GoDs. It would be ridiculous for him to include SSG when he was referring to "powerlevel of a god" as though SSG and Beerus are in any way similar in power. Yes, there isn't anything complicated about it that is why I am baffled that this is what you got from the story being told.

-BoG literally dedicated almost two episodes to establishing that SSJ Goku(post-ritual)~SSG Goku, for that to suddenly not be the case would make no sense unless explicitly stated otherwise.(Which it wasn't.)
-It would contradict all the emphasis on Goku and Vegeta getting stronger during their time with Whis and Beerus making a comment that Goku had gotten stronger since they last fought and proposing another fight.
-Freeza shows up in his 1st form dominates everybody including Gohan who's base is now stronger than Piccolo, lost as a SSJ in the first form. Only for him to become well over a hundred of times stronger and STILL be weaker than Goku.
-Goku being able to fight Beerus in the Monaka suit and provide enjoyment for Beerus.
-Goku being shown to be far superior to SSJ3 Gotenks in his Base form.
-Goku, while appearing to be very casual, fought evenly with a very powered up Buu in his Base form.

All of this when in the beginning of BoG his base was probably weaker than Namek Freeza....This factor of Goku infusing SSG allows him to gain the largest power boost he has ever had and all of the aforementioned things corroborate with this fact.

[ankokudaishogun]

Vegeta's max Normal Ki is ~SS3, and Gotenks is at very least on the same level, probably stronger due being a fusion.
The next step for him is therefore going God Ki.

Golden Freeza has normal ki and he is god level. I don’t think god ki is really necessary. Either way, Vegeta’s ki could just be higher than Gotenks’ ki. For instance, SS Goku didn’t have god ki when he fought Beerus, but he was god level too.

Vegeta's maximum Normal Ki Level, last time we had a comparison(read: BoG), was ~SS3.
As far as we know, Vegeta's Normal Ki Level never grew much higher than that
Therefore, to fight anything stronger than a SS3 like, say, a Fusion SS3, he'd be forced to use God Ki


Freeza or Jiren having a maximum Normal Ki Level as strong or stronger than Vegeta's God Ki is not relevant: while it's possible Vegeta might reach the same levels of Normal Ki, that wasn't true at the time.

-Uses Kaiokenx10 to break Hit's time dimension, and then does it again much later except without Kaioken.(Indicating he got atleast 10x stronger

Not necessarily: nothing suggest he couldn't break Hit's time-jump dimension with a lower multiplier.
(I also don't believe Kaiohken Blue is a pure multiplier, but that's another issue)

a fight between Gods of Destruction,

IIRC he said they were already at the level of divinities, not specifically Gods of Destruction.

Jiren vs Goku Blue x20 is compared to a GoD because he was so effortlessly dealing with Blue x20.
Which is more or less the same that happened with Beerus and Vegeta Complete Blue in the manga.

Evidently the Minimum God Level is much lower than the level of an average God of Destruction.
Nothing contradictory.

[Hugo Boss]

It would be ridiculous for him to include SSG when he was referring to "powerlevel of a god" as though SSG and Beerus are in any way similar in power.

Unlike the Kaioshins, SSG can actually put a fight against Beerus to the point their battle had the potential to destroy the universe. That much we can infer from a fight that lasted about 5 episodes. Anyway, Vegeta made clear cut in episode 15 that SSG is the level of a god. The wording is the same that Whis uses. There is no reason to assume they are talking about different things here.

To add to that, it doesn't affect powerscale from later events, because Beerus was still out of their league despite their improvements. There is nothing from your current list that wasn't already adressed. At least provide solid arguments.

- Base Goku didn't nothing impressive in Freeza Arc, he is just much stronger than SS Gohan.
- Beerus in Monaka's suit is conveniently handicapped to Base Goku's level, when he normally can beat even SSGSS with ease.
- Gotenks and Boo are fodder to SSG. Multiply their power for.. thousands(?) and they still aren't anywhere near that level.

Just to illustrate how things are simple...

[spoiler]Goku (before SSG)
Base - 1
SS - 50
SS2 - 100
SS3 - 400
SSG - 10,000,000

Goku (after SSG)
Base - 1,000
SS - 50,000
SS2 - 100,000
SS3 - 400,000
SSG - 10,000,000
SSGSS - 20,000,000
SSGSS Kaioken x20 - 400,000,000

Beerus
Normally - 500,000,000
In Monaka's suit - 1,000

Freeza
1st form - 100
4th warming up - 1,000
full power - 40,000
golden - 30,000,000[/spoiler]

to fight anything stronger than a SS3 like, say, a Fusion SS3, he'd be forced to use God Ki

I don't think the quality of the ki is what makes the difference in this case. It was never said there is a limit for normal ki for Saiyans.

[dragon boss z]

No, I have yet to see enough evidence to support that theory.