Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: This is not about pointing fingers. To be more clear, I have saw on this thread and in other similar ones some gross exaggerations like “Base Goku is stronger than a hypothetical super strong character that never existed in Dragon Ball story”. That strikes me as a bad sign of extrapolation that isn’t expected from a Kanzenshuu member.
You say this isn't about pointing fingers and then you go on to ridicule people that have a different opinion than you and call their deductions "gross exaggerations”
There is nothing in my post that suggest that I’m ridiculing anyone. A gross exaggeration is just what it is, there is nothing to infer from that. Comparing a character that actually exists to another that is only fan-idealized isn’t aiming for accuracy at all. Also, there is nothing established about SS being stronger than SSG. If anything this idea doesn’t hold any water in the Survival Arc.
I already explained thoroughly why it is perfectly rational to compare characters to SSJ3 Vegetto.

The entirety of episodes 13 and 14 make it clear that SSJ>SSG. Theres quite the laundry list of tjings that illustrate this. This increase of Goku's SSJ form to this dramatically higher level allows him to:

1. Defeat Final Form Freeza in Base who is atleast a hundred times stronger than the First Form Freeza who dominated everybody else.
2. Compete with Beerus in the Monaka Suit in his base form.
3. Shown to be far above SSJ3 Gotenks.
4. Play around and fighting evenly with a powered up Majin Buu.

And this is all after Base Golu was established to be weaker than Namek full power Freeza. There is no way that a boost capable of achieving the aforementioned feats would be possible if Goku didnt Infuse the SSG power within him.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:52 pm

PFM18 wrote:He also says after Goku pushes Beerus back as a golden SSJ:
"So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God."
and "And get a patchwork Super Saiyan God and you made it your own and perfected it."

He made it his own and perfected it by infusing that power into his SSJ self.

And Goku went on to perform better than he did as a Super Saiyan God. Not to mention the fact that the previous episode is literally called "Goku,Surpass the Super Saiyan God"
Goku didn't perform better as a SSJ, that was the point of Beerus telling him he can't touch him without the divine power. Goku was getting laughed at. In the end, SSJ showed SSJG power as Beerus stated, in a last minute effort but STILL did nothing to Beerus. It's just like BOG stated, SSJ is "powered down" compared to SSJG. Goku made SSJG his own by being able to use the transformation AT WILL. SSJ is STILL weaker than SSJG, proven fact back by statements and action.
Last edited by Miracles on Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:03 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:He also says after Goku pushes Beerus back as a golden SSJ:
"So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God."
and "And get a patchwork Super Saiyan God and you made it your own and perfected it."

He made it his own and perfected it by infusing that power into his SSJ self.

And Goku went on to perform better than he did as a Super Saiyan God. Not to mention the fact that the previous episode is literally called "Goku,Surpass the Super Saiyan God"
Goku didn't perform better as a SSJ, that was the point of Beerus telling him he doesn't have the divine power like this and him getting pwned. In the end SSJ ONLY showed a glimpse of SSJG and STILL did nothing to Beerus.
Goku made SSJG his own by being able to use the transformation AT WILL. SSJ is STILL weaker than SSJG this was a proven fact back by statements and action.
Goku punched Beerus and pushed him back and Beerus said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as he is in his SSJ form.

He was not able to use the transformation at will. The ritual and the transformation expired so he was in his normal SSJ state, and yet he still had the power of SSG. That is what the entire scene is trying to portray. There's absolutely no indication that Goku was able to use the transformation at will during this time. Ya know, since he didn't use the transformation during that time. He didn't even go back into SSG like he did in the movie, he stayed in SSJ and gave Beerus atleast as good of a fight. Goku even says when he is a normal SSJ "but I don't feel any weaker." Beerus is shocked that Goku's punches still hurt as a normal SSJ and that is when it is thoroughly established that SSJ~SSG before he ultimately surpassed it as a SSJ. There is absolutely no indication that what Beerus meant by the "made it his own" was to say that he could retain using the transformation. He didn't even use the transformation again until almost 100 episodes later.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:12 pm

PFM18 wrote:Goku punched Beerus and pushed him back and Beerus said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as he is in his SSJ form.

He was not able to use the transformation at will. The ritual and the transformation expired so he was in his normal SSJ state, and yet he still had the power of SSG. That is what the entire scene is trying to portray. There's absolutely no indication that Goku was able to use the transformation at will during this time. Ya know, since he didn't use the transformation during that time. He didn't even go back into SSG like he did in the movie, he stayed in SSJ and gave Beerus atleast as good of a fight. Goku even says when he is a normal SSJ "but I don't feel any weaker." Beerus is shocked that Goku's punches still hurt as a normal SSJ and that is when it is thoroughly established that SSJ~SSG before he ultimately surpassed it as a SSJ. There is absolutely no indication that what Beerus meant by the "made it his own" was to say that he could retain using the transformation. He didn't even use the transformation again until almost 100 episodes later.
That's the point, the fact that Goku could use the SSJG form later as HIS OWN was what Beerus is saying. The red aura ran out but Goku did gain a power up from it in all his modes. That's why BOG states he didn't "power-down all that much." Evident by the fact that SSJ's performance wasn't all that bad compared to god. However it still wasn't SSJG level like Beerus stated in Super. Goku indeed did "powered down" in SSJ as shown and stated in both BOG and Super.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Base Copy Vegeta tanking SSJ3 Gotenks' attacks like they were nothing suggests a huge gap between the two. Buuhan was perhaps 2-3x stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Such a small gap enabling someone to tank attacks the way Copy Base Vegeta did is very unlikely; especially if the attacks are charged up like the ones SSJ3 Gotenks used. Then there's how both Goku and Vegeta likely got over 10x stronger after Copy Base Vegeta was defeated. So yeah, by the ToP, Base Goku and Vegeta are very likely stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto in my opinion.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Goku punched Beerus and pushed him back and Beerus said "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God" as he is in his SSJ form.

He was not able to use the transformation at will. The ritual and the transformation expired so he was in his normal SSJ state, and yet he still had the power of SSG. That is what the entire scene is trying to portray. There's absolutely no indication that Goku was able to use the transformation at will during this time. Ya know, since he didn't use the transformation during that time. He didn't even go back into SSG like he did in the movie, he stayed in SSJ and gave Beerus atleast as good of a fight. Goku even says when he is a normal SSJ "but I don't feel any weaker." Beerus is shocked that Goku's punches still hurt as a normal SSJ and that is when it is thoroughly established that SSJ~SSG before he ultimately surpassed it as a SSJ. There is absolutely no indication that what Beerus meant by the "made it his own" was to say that he could retain using the transformation. He didn't even use the transformation again until almost 100 episodes later.
That's the point, the fact that Goku could use the SSJG form later as HIS OWN was what Beerus is saying. The red aura ran out but Goku did gain a power up from it in all his modes. That's why BOG states he didn't "power-down all that much." Evident by the fact that SSJ's performance wasn't all that bad compared to god. However it still wasn't SSJG level like Beerus stated in Super. Goku indeed did "powered down" in SSJ as shown and stated in both BOG and Super.
That is not what Beerus was saying because at the time Beerus had no idea that Goku could use SSG at the time. Goku couldn't actually transform into SSG at will until much later. I am not sure how you figure that SSJ's performance wasn't as good compared to God. between Goku getting several punches in, pushing Beerus back, and withstanding all of it he certainly had shown power superior to SSG. Episode 13's title outright says that Goku surpassed SSG.(When he was a SSJ during this time.) Beerus, after commenting on Goku making the SSG power his own, he comments on how Goku made him use "this much of my power." Indicating that he used more power during that moment than before when he fought SSG. The point of episode 14 was to establish that now SSJ Goku>SSG Goku from the ritual.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:That is not what Beerus was saying because at the time Beerus had no idea that Goku could use SSG at the time. Goku couldn't actually transform into SSG at will until much later. I am not sure how you figure that SSJ's performance wasn't as good compared to God. between Goku getting several punches in, pushing Beerus back, and withstanding all of it he certainly had shown power superior to SSG. Episode 13's title outright says that Goku surpassed SSG.(When he was a SSJ during this time.) Beerus, after commenting on Goku making the SSG power his own, he comments on how Goku made him use "this much of my power." Indicating that he used more power during that moment than before when he fought SSG. The point of episode 14 was to establish that now SSJ Goku>SSG Goku from the ritual.
False. You keep saying SSJ outperformed SSJG when Beerus STATED and SHOWED otherwise. Even questioned if Goku had the SSJG power in him cause he was doing worse.
Beerus stated god's red blaze still burns inside of Goku. This means he still had that power/aura/mode in him. That's why no one was surprised when Goku transformed into SSJG later.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:38 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:That is not what Beerus was saying because at the time Beerus had no idea that Goku could use SSG at the time. Goku couldn't actually transform into SSG at will until much later. I am not sure how you figure that SSJ's performance wasn't as good compared to God. between Goku getting several punches in, pushing Beerus back, and withstanding all of it he certainly had shown power superior to SSG. Episode 13's title outright says that Goku surpassed SSG.(When he was a SSJ during this time.) Beerus, after commenting on Goku making the SSG power his own, he comments on how Goku made him use "this much of my power." Indicating that he used more power during that moment than before when he fought SSG. The point of episode 14 was to establish that now SSJ Goku>SSG Goku from the ritual.
False. You keep saying SSJ outperformed SSJG when Beerus STATED and SHOWED otherwise. Even questioned if Goku had the SSJG power in him cause he was doing worse.
Beerus stated god's red blaze still burns inside of Goku. This means he still had that power/aura/mode in him. That's why no one was surprised when Goku transformed into SSJG later.
Beerus asks if the power of SSG still is within him when he has already beaten the crap out of Goku. Goku's damaged/exhausted but Beerus wanted to keep fighting. Beerus overpowers Goku regardless of what form he is in but in this case he didn't have anything left and Beerus was provoking him to show that SSG power again, since he had done just that a moment ago. So then afterwards, Beerus gets pushed back and says "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God." Beerus succeeded in pushing Goku to go further and show him the SSG power again. That was all Beerus was doing. But immediately after questioning if Goku still had that power, he confirms that he does have the power when he is being pushed back.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:12 pm

I don't think argument will ever end because people are going to use feats and statements said in anime and movie. By using this logic, you end up saying that Frost > Base Cabba > SSJ Vegito (Buu saga) > Buuhan. Perfect Cell by himself is a solar system buster. Buuhan would most likely be a galaxy buster. Beerus is a universe buster. Note that a solar system comprises of 1 star and the orbiting planets while a galaxy involves billions of stars and the solar systems for each of those stars. The universe is all of those galaxies, billions of them. These assertions imply that a Base Cabba is capable of wiping out a galaxy. If you're ok with that, then by all means, be my guest.
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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 pm

shadowfox87 wrote: These assertions imply that a Base Cabba is capable of wiping out a galaxy. If you're ok with that, then by all means, be my guest.
this isn't really as much of a matter about whether or not you like it as it is just confirming that is what the story is telling us. People aren't sure exactly what the assertions the story is trying to give so people argue. Everybody has their own viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with arguing about it as long as you are respectful.(some people have trouble with this part.)

Whether or not you like it or "are ok with it" is a completely different question altogether.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:16 pm

PFM18 wrote:Beerus asks if the power of SSG still is within him when he has already beaten the crap out of Goku. Goku's damaged/exhausted but Beerus wanted to keep fighting. Beerus overpowers Goku regardless of what form he is in but in this case he didn't have anything left and Beerus was provoking him to show that SSG power again, since he had done just that a moment ago. So then afterwards, Beerus gets pushed back and says "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God." Beerus succeeded in pushing Goku to go further and show him the SSG power again. That was all Beerus was doing. But immediately after questioning if Goku still had that power, he confirms that he does have the power when he is being pushed back.
Which confirms BOG and Super's point that SSJG became his own form and boosted all Goku's modes and hence why his SSJ hasn't "powered down all that much" than SSJG.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:19 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Beerus asks if the power of SSG still is within him when he has already beaten the crap out of Goku. Goku's damaged/exhausted but Beerus wanted to keep fighting. Beerus overpowers Goku regardless of what form he is in but in this case he didn't have anything left and Beerus was provoking him to show that SSG power again, since he had done just that a moment ago. So then afterwards, Beerus gets pushed back and says "So this is the power of a Super Saiyan God." Beerus succeeded in pushing Goku to go further and show him the SSG power again. That was all Beerus was doing. But immediately after questioning if Goku still had that power, he confirms that he does have the power when he is being pushed back.
Which confirms BOG and Super's point that SSJ is WEAKER than SSJG since SSJ pushing back Beerus with the power of a SSJG DID nothing to Beerus...Beerus kept smiling.
That doesn't confirm that SSJ<SSG it just confirms that in either state Goku is vastly inferior to Beerus. It DID nothing to Beerus as the rest of the fight did. He ultimately ends up with next to no damage at the end of the fight whether he was taking punches from SSJ Goku or SSG God. It is clear that "SSJ with the power of a SSG" means just that: "a SSJ with the power of a SSG" no more no less. He ultimately retained the same boost that the ritual inducing transformation yielded. Then, he surpassed that level indicated by the episode title and what not.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:22 pm

PFM18 wrote:That doesn't confirm that SSJ<SSG it just confirms that in either state Goku is vastly inferior to Beerus. It DID nothing to Beerus as the rest of the fight did. He ultimately ends up with next to no damage at the end of the fight whether he was taking punches from SSJ Goku or SSG Goku.
SSJG Goku did better than SSJ as Beerus proves to Goku in SSJ by stating that he doesn't have divine power so he can't hit him like this.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:27 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:That doesn't confirm that SSJ<SSG it just confirms that in either state Goku is vastly inferior to Beerus. It DID nothing to Beerus as the rest of the fight did. He ultimately ends up with next to no damage at the end of the fight whether he was taking punches from SSJ Goku or SSG Goku.
SSJG Goku did better than SSJ as Beerus proves to Goku in SSJ by stating that he doesn't have divine power so he can't hit him like this.
The only time something like that is mentioned is when Goku first reverts from SSG to SSJ and Beerus doesn't know what is going on. He says "the party is over" and "you don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God" things of that nature. He immediately realizes that he was wrong

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Miracles » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:33 pm

PFM18 wrote:The only time something like that is mentioned is when Goku first reverts from SSG to SSJ and Beerus doesn't know what is going on. He says "the party is over" and "you don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God" things of that nature. He immediately realizes that he was wrong
No he doesn't, towards the end of the fight, as Beerus is dominating SSJ Goku, he tells him he can't beat him like this, he starts questioning if he has god powers. Even when he finally used god powers in SSJ he STILL didn't hit Beerus and just collapses. It's like BOG and Super said, The absorption of SSJG boosted all Goku's modes and he retained the form hence why Goku didn't "power down that much" from SSJG to SSJ.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by supercat » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:49 pm

PFM18 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote: These assertions imply that a Base Cabba is capable of wiping out a galaxy. If you're ok with that, then by all means, be my guest.
this isn't really as much of a matter about whether or not you like it as it is just confirming that is what the story is telling us. People aren't sure exactly what the assertions the story is trying to give so people argue. Everybody has their own viewpoint and there's nothing wrong with arguing about it as long as you are respectful.(some people have trouble with this part.)

Whether or not you like it or "are ok with it" is a completely different question altogether.
Exactly. What "seems" logical shouldn't be as much of a factor as what's actually been shown and strongly implied. Universe 6 is a completely different universe, so there's no reason to expect that their power levels are in line with universe 7. The fact that universe 7 has the second weakest mortal rank should already be a strong implication that others of similar origin coming from a different universe have a strong likelihood of being much stronger.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:48 pm

PFM18 wrote:SSJ>SSG
Since you entered speculative territory, let's do this.

It isn't clear if Goku would have defeated Freeza's final form without SS, since Vegeta interrupted their fight due to both holding back. Also, in the light of more recent events, namely the final assault against Jiren, it can be infered that Freeza's final form is more comparable to SS Goku.

Another thing that I checked is that Beerus vested in Monaka suit was constrained to an unknown level, so it's very difficult to have a good assessment about their strength in that situation.

Being stronger than SS3 Gotenks is okay, but between SS3 and SSG there is already a large gap. It's perfectly possible to fit Base, SS, SS2 and SS3 between them without contradicting anything. It doesn't hinder strength progression because Goku still continues to get stronger in his SSGSS form, the one which was said to be god level in "Goku vs. Bergamo" episode in contrast to SS and Base.

I just have found the page in which I discussed Goku's compliment about Boo's power with SansrivaaL. As you can see I misjudged Goku's implication about it. At least, we could say Base Goku can beat Fat Boo and is comparable to a faster version of him, but anything further than that won't help. It's interesting to see that I believed Goku was using god-like power.. How things change.
supercat wrote:The fact that universe 7 has the second weakest mortal rank should already be a strong implication that others of similar origin coming from a different universe have a strong likelihood of being much stronger.
Mortal rank doesn't have anything to do with powerlevels. It's about goodness/humanity.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:20 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:Mortal rank doesn't have anything to do with powerlevels. It's about goodness/humanity.
Source? Because as of right now, it was never stated anyway.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:00 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Mortal rank doesn't have anything to do with powerlevels. It's about goodness/humanity.
Source? Because as of right now, it was never stated anyway.
You are right. I thought it became clear after Zeno’s intentions were revealed, that it doesn’t matter how capable the mortals are if they are selfish. But you could say it’s more like our Human Development Index (HDI), which is more encompassing.

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Re: Is Base Goku (Current) above SsjG Goku BoG arc?

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:11 am

i dont think so, i think beyong god form has been definitely retconned from black Goku saga

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