So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

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So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:29 pm

And I came across two things that I found were puzzling that I couldn't rationalize. I don't know if these were anime only and not in the manga because I haven't read the manga in a while now. But anyway:

-Goten was constantly referring to Vegeta as "Uncle" when they were watching him fight Majin Buu and before he sacrificed himself.
-Goku said "There's no way I can beat him." and then says "No matter what I do I can't win against him." Referring to fighting Fat Buu when he was talking to Piccolo. How does this make sense when he had SSJ3? I know we have the plothole where he inconspicuously doesn't use SSJ3 against Vegeta even though he said he wanted to end it quickly, but this just doesn't make any sense. He explicitly says that there is nothing he can do and that there isn't any difference in power between him and Vegeta.

Again, I don't know if these are anime only scenes or what but they just don't make any sense at all to me and I am wondering if any of you could make sense of them.
Last edited by PFM18 on Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:56 pm

The "Uncle" thing is just an unfortunate way of subtitling ojisan, which can refer to either a middle-aged man or someone's actual uncle. A better way to translate it might be "Mister", or maybe even just leave it at ojisan...

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:19 pm

MyVisionity wrote:The "Uncle" thing is just an unfortunate way of subtitling ojisan, which can refer to either a middle-aged man or someone's actual uncle. A better way to translate it might be "Mister", or maybe even just leave it at ojisan...
But when he sees Vegeta in pain he shouts "Uncle!" as in with an affection towards the person in question kind of like the English word "Uncle." It would kind of sound ridiculous if he was crying out with concern for Vegeta's life and yelled "Mister!" don't you think?

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:43 pm

PFM18 wrote:
MyVisionity wrote:The "Uncle" thing is just an unfortunate way of subtitling ojisan, which can refer to either a middle-aged man or someone's actual uncle. A better way to translate it might be "Mister", or maybe even just leave it at ojisan...
But when he sees Vegeta in pain he shouts "Uncle!" as in with an affection towards the person in question kind of like the English word "Uncle." It would kind of sound ridiculous if he was crying out with concern for Vegeta's life and yelled "Mister!" don't you think?
I guess he's just familiar enough with Vegeta as being Trunks' dad to show that kind of concern for him. I doubt that Goten sees Vegeta like an actual uncle at that point; it's really just another one of Steve Simmons' awkward translating tics that you see throughout the series. I don't know if "Mister" works much better in that particular context, but some things just can't be translated smoothly.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by shadowfox87 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:06 pm

This is just another example of what people say in dialogue in an anime shouldn't be taken as fact. Goku lied. Vegeta was pissed at Goku that he held back. Goku didn't want to use SSJ3 because that would eat his time that he had left on Earth. He wanted to finish the fight with Vegeta and then fight Buu. "Uncle" is very common in asian culture. I call most older strangers, "uncle" or "auntie". In addition, martial arts and fighting, a form of "giving up" instead of "tapping" is by saying "uncle" or "待て (mate)".
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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Tectorman » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:29 pm

Goku held off on using SSJ3 against Vegeta because while he knew that it would generally demolish his remaining time on Earth, he didn't have enough practice with the form to know exactly what the parameters would be. Could he use it at half power and only lose half a day? Would going to full power whisk him away to the afterlife after thirty seconds? He didn't know, and therefore judged fighting at SSJ2 against Vegeta, even if Vegeta was just as strong and even if his goal was ending the fight quickly, to be the better option in terms of what might come up after that fight.
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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:15 am

shadowfox87 wrote:In addition, martial arts and fighting, a form of "giving up" instead of "tapping" is by saying "uncle" or "待て (mate)".
Don't you mean 参った (maitta/I give up) instead?

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:51 am

Tectorman wrote:Goku held off on using SSJ3 against Vegeta because while he knew that it would generally demolish his remaining time on Earth, he didn't have enough practice with the form to know exactly what the parameters would be. Could he use it at half power and only lose half a day? Would going to full power whisk him away to the afterlife after thirty seconds? He didn't know, and therefore judged fighting at SSJ2 against Vegeta, even if Vegeta was just as strong and even if his goal was ending the fight quickly, to be the better option in terms of what might come up after that fight.
Ok but this doesn't make any sense since he knew the fate of the Earth rested on whether or not he could beat Vegeta quickly to prevent Buu's revival. How long it would reduce his time on Earth was irrelevant in thag moment.

But that is besides the point. Thats just an inconsistency/plothole sort of thing and it has been discussed to death before. I am more interested in why Goku blatantly says there's nothing that he can do against Buu and theres no way he could beat him when we know as a SSJ3 he is stronger.
shadowfox87 wrote:This is just another example of what people say in dialogue in an anime shouldn't be taken as fact. Goku lied. Vegeta was pissed at Goku that he held back. Goku didn't want to use SSJ3 because that would eat his time that he had left on Earth. He wanted to finish the fight with Vegeta and then fight Buu. "Uncle" is very common in asian culture. I call most older strangers, "uncle" or "auntie". In addition, martial arts and fighting, a form of "giving up" instead of "tapping" is by saying "uncle" or "待て (mate)".
Ok but the focus here isnt on why he didnt turn SSJ3 against Vegeta. It cant really be rationalized any other way than Goku was just being stupid. The point is why would he tell Piccolo that theres nothing he could do against Buu and theres no way he could beat him.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:09 am

PFM18 wrote:Ok but the focus here isnt on why he didnt turn SSJ3 against Vegeta. It cant really be rationalized any other way than Goku was just being stupid. The point is why would he tell Piccolo that theres nothing he could do against Buu and theres no way he could beat him.
Piccolo asks Goku whether he could beat Buu. Goku says no. Then later at the end of the series, Goku says he could beat Buu but he wanted to give the next generation a chance. There's no contradiction. Goku chose not to tell Piccolo the truth. Characters can lie or withhold truth.
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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Regarder » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:13 am

Aren't the two situations different in that earlier on, Goku was in a heavenly body, but later he was alive again? I also don't trust Goku's later statement since while he may have been able to gather enough power in theory, in reality, just fighting as a SSJ3 was causing his time to run on Earth to run out faster; if he'd gathered power to destroy Fat Buu could he really have done it? Goku may brag later, but I moreso trust his earlier statement that was fresh from actually experiencing a fight against Buu. Possibly what he meant is that absent his time limit, he would have been able to do it, but that was an important factor, and Goku is directly shown to be bad at taking such things into account not long after after making the statement before the Kid Buu fight. When he claims to be able to destroy Kid Buu with a minute power up, it doesn't work because of his earthly body.

All this complicates things and creates different possible SSJ3 scenarios that are in no way equivalent. When it comes to destroying Buu, you need time to power up, so time is power in this case, and therefore: Otherworld SSJ3 > Mortal SSJ3 > Otherworld SSJ3 on Earth.

Did Goku keep all of these factors in mind when making any statements about Buu? Doubtful. I would treat his earlier statements about Buu as cautious statements made after sweating it out, whereas his later statements can be seen as bragging to Vegeta (and it's incorporated into a gag scene). Although I trust the early statement to a greater degree, neither statement should be treat as definitively true just because it's Goku's opinion, which changes with his mood. My personal opinion is that Goku would not be able to beat original Fat Buu (also different from the one that fights Kid Buu) in that scene, and he would use up his time on Earth if he tried, so it was the best that he kept it at the level needed to stall Fat Buu. If Otherworld SSJ3 Goku was able to fight OG Fat Buu or Kid Buu then he would be able to erase them by gathering power (a minute for Kid Buu, probably less for OG Fat Buu, but I don't think it would be single digit seconds tbh guys), but even then he'd best have some allies to stall them. It's also possible that Goku didn't even consider powering up to max until he was fighting Kid Buu. He can't win without doing that anyway.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Tectorman » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:29 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Tectorman wrote:Goku held off on using SSJ3 against Vegeta because while he knew that it would generally demolish his remaining time on Earth, he didn't have enough practice with the form to know exactly what the parameters would be. Could he use it at half power and only lose half a day? Would going to full power whisk him away to the afterlife after thirty seconds? He didn't know, and therefore judged fighting at SSJ2 against Vegeta, even if Vegeta was just as strong and even if his goal was ending the fight quickly, to be the better option in terms of what might come up after that fight.
Ok but this doesn't make any sense since he knew the fate of the Earth rested on whether or not he could beat Vegeta quickly to prevent Buu's revival. How long it would reduce his time on Earth was irrelevant in thag moment.

But that is besides the point. Thats just an inconsistency/plothole sort of thing and it has been discussed to death before. I am more interested in why Goku blatantly says there's nothing that he can do against Buu and theres no way he could beat him when we know as a SSJ3 he is stronger.
Okay, let's stress-test that scenario. Goku goes SSJ3, defeats Vegeta inside thirty seconds and is possibly whisked back to the afterlife. Vegeta is down, Goku had the remaining senzu bean, so it's either on the ground next to Vegeta's unconscious body or it's with Goku in the afterlife. Gohan and the Supreme Kai are by themselves against Dabura, Babidi, and possibly Buu. All it would take for Goku to disregard SSJ3 as a viable option is his estimation, no matter whether it's correct or not, that Gohan and the Supreme Kai can't prevail in that scenario.

But as you say, it's beside the point. When Goku says he can't do anything against Buu, it's likewise due to his lack of knowledge; in this case, he knows next to nothing about Buu. He knows generally that Buu is stronger than a SSJ2, and that he can regenerate, easily to the extent Cell could. Is his regeneration even greater, lacking the need for a core, or even cells? Does his stamina or power go down after regenerating? Does he remain dormant and undetectable while regenerating, such that he might have gone unnoticed until after Goku was back in the afterlife. He has next to no intel about what Buu can do.

His later statement that he could have defeated Buu with SSJ3 is due to his greater familiarity with how strong Buu is, how well he learns new techniques, and exactly how good his regeneration is. Familiarity he got with that fight and by watching the other forms of Buu from the afterlife.
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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:09 pm

I believe Goku chose not to share his strategy with Piccolo. He did the same back in the Cell Games, told no one about Gohan's rage potential and admit his plan when it was almost too late. I think he said to Piccolo that he couldn't have beaten Boo so that he would feel, as a sensei, the need to get the fusion right (Piccolo is great at dealing with pressure and deadlines). Piccolo would yell at him if Goku admitted that he chose to let his 7 year old son and his best friend to take charge, and probably would talk him into going back there and make good use of his last 15 minutes or whatever on Earth. Stupid stupid thinking by Goku, yes.
Also, I don't think we fully understand just how much his time on Earth diminishes while going SS3, he never ever planned on using it.

The other answer would be what Regarder said, which is quite interesting, but I just don't see Goku bragging.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Goku telling Piccolo that he doesn't think he could beat Majin Boo as a SSJ3, only to turn back and say that he could have, is something that has always rubbed up the wrong way. I talked about this in length in the past, so I'm going to be lazy to repeat my previous thoughts:
We get the major reveal from Goku himself that he could defeated Majin Boo when he first became a Super Saiyan 3 in front of him. If there was ever a moment that pulled the rug under the feet of the notion of the new generation taking over, this was it. It’s like the complete opposite of what happened in the Cell arc. In the Cell arc, Goku had no chance of defeating Cell and he knew that even before fighting him in the Cell Games. Even though it was still a gamble to through Gohan into the lion’s den, he at least had the justification of knowing that Gohan was much stronger than him that it was worth the risk. In the Majin Boo arc, he's warned multiple times of what a threat Majin Boo is and how they should prevent him from being resurrected. But he still contributes his resurrection, and when he has the opportunity the kill him, he doesn't do it. He could have prevented billions of peoples dying and chose not to under the pretense of "the kids should handle this as I won’t be around".

I can understand the intention Goku was going for in the Cell arc, even if the way he did about it was pointlessly reckless and dumb. But the Majin Boo arc was not the same scenario at all. If you want to build up for the new generation that taking up the mantle, that's fine. Gohan's case in the Cell arc is acceptable because he was truly the only option they had at that time. But don't create multiple scenarios, where the threat could have been dealt even before it even began, without even the notion of the new generation having the lifting a finger was contemplated, like was the case in the Majin Boo arc. It would be one thing if Goku played no significant part in resurrecting Majin Boo or wasn't strong enough to kill him, but neither of scenarios were the case. He just wanted to let the kids (Goten and Trunks) fight Majin Boo. It makes his intentions of wanting the new generation to take care of themselves seem hollow.

The thing that aggravates me the most about me the most about that reveal is that is makes Goku into a liar about his strength and the strength of his opponents. This may not seem like a big to other people, but Goku being straightforward and honest about his assessment of the strength of himself and the opponents he faces or talks about in proxy is a characteristic that has always been consistent. Goku constantly reasserts to himself and to others that has no chance against Majin Boo. And that even as a Super Saiyan 3, he couldn’t defeat him. Then he turns around and casually remarks that he could have killed Majin Boo but just wanted to have the new generation to have chance to defend themselves. That reasoning annoys me to no end as it just makes Goku wanting the new generation take care of themselves come across as less sincere and genuine and more of a glorified case of passing the buck and having someone else clean up the shitstorm he significantly contributed to. The new generation wouldn’t even need to deal with Majin Boo if Goku just used Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta. Goku’s actions in that case were out of character.

Goku didn’t need to lie about how strong he was when facing Majin Boo as a Super Saiyan 3. Why did that reveal needed to be thrown in? Was is to serve as a plot twist? Because if so, that is the worst plot twist I’ve ever seen in Dragon Ball. Because it severs no purpose to the overall narrative, other than to drive home that Goku is a reckless asshole who willingly endanger the lives of billions of people on a wing and a prayer, something that he should have learned after the Cell arc is not a wise thing to do considering he died from that fashion of thinking. This reveal that proves that the new generation really could have relied on a dead guy to win their battles for them and that it will always be up to the old guard to save the day. Completing negating the major underling theme the Majin Boo arc was going for. It’s like a total inverse of what happened in the Cell arc.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:11 am

To keep things simple, Toriyama provably didn’t think of SS3 at the time.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:19 am

The Uncle thing is just a sign of family closeness. I called my dad's best friend Uncle even tho he wasn't related.

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:51 pm

Alright I know this is over simplifying things a bit , but fat Buu can't sense energy as far as we know. Maybe he can and just doesn't do anything about it like he isn't evil or savvy enough to hunt down and kill every strong guy out there. Assuming he couldnt sense energy couldn't Goku just turn ss3 power up a Kamehameha full power and i.t. to Buu and kill him in like 30 seconds?

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Re: So I am rewatching the Buu Arc....

Post by nato25 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:20 pm

Of course there is the out of universe explanation, the concept of SSJ3 didn't exist until most likely that week.

I don't see the problem with the dialogue honestly. From memory, Goku says he could beat Buu to Vegeta I believe, with the hindsight of everything that's happened. Them underestimating the enemy was a huge thing early on in the saga once all the Buu stuff picked up. I think Goku did that again when he allowed Buu to live (even though I think Buu's ability to regenerate would have made him the overall winner of that battle).

Up until sometime near when he tells Vegeta he probably could have beat Fat Buu, I think his intention was indeed to leave it up to the kids. Only with the hindsight of how much trouble Buu caused has he decided that it would have been better to just take Buu out, and not use this situation as a training drill for the next generation. In that way I have no problem with Goku's character here, in fact I kind of like what he was going for.

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