Does SSJ3 Cause A Huge Loss In Stamina Anymore?

[theherodjl]

Goku has been seen using SSJ3 a few times since the BOG film(despite Akira Toriyama saying that Goku would be retiring the SSJ2/SSJ3 forms), and he seemingly hasn't lost a lot of Ki from using it anymore like he did against Pure Boo so does that mean its no longer a liability to his stamina?

[PFM18]

Goku has been seen using SSJ3 a few times since the BOG film(despite Akira Toriyama saying that Goku would be retiring the SSJ2/SSJ3 forms), and he seemingly hasn't lost a lot of Ki from using it anymore like he did against Pure Boo so does that mean its no longer a liability to his stamina?

He used it once extremely briefly against Trunks and extremely briefly against the U6 Saiyans. I don't think there's any indication that the stamina thing has changed. Especially since Goku immediately dropped back into base after he used SSJ3 in the ToP and I believe he commented on the stamina loss too

[Lord Frieza]

Goku has been seen using SSJ3 a few times since the BOG film(despite Akira Toriyama saying that Goku would be retiring the SSJ2/SSJ3 forms), and he seemingly hasn't lost a lot of Ki from using it anymore like he did against Pure Boo so does that mean its no longer a liability to his stamina?

As far as we know, yes the form still has that issue. Goku has barely used SS3 in Super and even then sparingly. Infact he's only used it twice, once to finish of Trunks during thei sparing match and for a moment during his battle with Caulifla and Kale but quickly dropped the form for SSG. Infact of all his forms SS3 has the least screen time.

In all the above cases Goku specificaly only used the form in short bursts and only once in a real battle situation, and again he dropped it as quickly as he used it. While we don't know if the issue could be worked round with training, we have never seen Goku try to improve it and with SSG, SSB and UI under his belt he has very little insentive to even try these days.

However given that Goku has never improved the form even befor started to get his god powers and Vegeta seems to have never even bother to try and gain the form himself, I'm inclined to think that possible due to the nature of the form the stamina issue simple can't be worked round.

[BlueBasilisk]

Goku has been seen using SSJ3 a few times since the BOG film(despite Akira Toriyama saying that Goku would be retiring the SSJ2/SSJ3 forms), and he seemingly hasn't lost a lot of Ki from using it anymore like he did against Pure Boo so does that mean its no longer a liability to his stamina?

As far as we know, yes the form still has that issue. Goku has barely used SS3 in Super and even then sparingly. Infact he's only used it twice, once to finish of Trunks during thei sparing match and for a moment during his battle with Caulifla and Kale but quickly dropped the form for SSG. Infact of all his forms SS3 has the least screen time.

In all the above cases Goku specificaly only used the form in short bursts and only once in a real battle situation, and again he dropped it as quickly as he used it. While we don't know if the issue could be worked round with training, we have never seen Goku try to improve it and with SSG, SSB and UI under his belt he has very little insentive to even try these days.

However given that Goku has never improved the form even befor started to get his god powers and Vegeta seems to have never even bother to try and gain the form himself, I'm inclined to think that possible due to the nature of the form the stamina issue simple can't be worked round.

He also used it in the forest of illusions. Goku might have simply given up on it since he has God and Blue which are better in pretty much every respect. It seems like the franchise is introducing a lot of alternate forms that are that strong or stronger, so in a meta sense I wonder if they're quietly trying to phase it out.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Goku mostly used it just to show off, not because he ever actually needed it. Notably when he was testing his forms against Jiren he skipped from SSJ2 to SSJG IIRC.

[sintzu]

If Goku's power was a 10 in the Buu arc where we saw him have issues then it's probably 100 now so there's no reason for him to have said issues anymore as he's vastly stronger than he was back then. Toriyama said that Ssj3 was just a powered up version of Ssj1 so at this point in time Goku (and Vegeta if he decided to use it) shouldn't have any trouble controlling it.

[PsionicWarrior]

With BoG and Super Goku attained God level so I don't think SSJ3 is such a concern in terms of stamina loss any longer lol

[ZeroNeonix]

When fighting Jiren, Goku went through each of his forms to gage Jiren's strength. He fought as SS1, SS2, SSG, SSB, and finally SSBKx10. He skipped SS3 entirely. Probably because the power drain made it not worth the effort.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Seems as though SS3 is only useful for providing a brief measuring stick to gauge opponents who aren't at the same level of strength as Goku's god forms but still beyond his SS form.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Goku has been seen using SSJ3 a few times since the BOG film(despite Akira Toriyama saying that Goku would be retiring the SSJ2/SSJ3 forms), and he seemingly hasn't lost a lot of Ki from using it anymore like he did against Pure Boo so does that mean its no longer a liability to his stamina?

As far as we know, yes the form still has that issue. Goku has barely used SS3 in Super and even then sparingly. Infact he's only used it twice, once to finish of Trunks during thei sparing match and for a moment during his battle with Caulifla and Kale but quickly dropped the form for SSG. Infact of all his forms SS3 has the least screen time.

In all the above cases Goku specificaly only used the form in short bursts and only once in a real battle situation, and again he dropped it as quickly as he used it. While we don't know if the issue could be worked round with training, we have never seen Goku try to improve it and with SSG, SSB and UI under his belt he has very little insentive to even try these days.

However given that Goku has never improved the form even befor started to get his god powers and Vegeta seems to have never even bother to try and gain the form himself, I'm inclined to think that possible due to the nature of the form the stamina issue simple can't be worked round.

He also used it in the forest of illusions. Goku might have simply given up on it since he has God and Blue which are better in pretty much every respect. It seems like the franchise is introducing a lot of alternate forms that are that strong or stronger, so in a meta sense I wonder if they're quietly trying to phase it out.

There are also a few out of universe reasons to why, SS3 merch isn't very popular (and if not for Nakazawa's love for the form, the form wouldn't have had any of the little marketing it does), plus the form is harder to draw so all that coupled with the problems the form has in-verse it makes sense it has more or less been phased out.

[sintzu]

When fighting Jiren, Goku went through each of his forms to gage Jiren's strength. He fought as SS1, SS2, SSG, SSB, and finally SSBKx10. He skipped SS3 entirely. Probably because the power drain made it not worth the effort.

It probably had to do with Toei not wanting to animate the hair as Goku's used it in the manga without any issues against Toppo.

[LightBing]

My rule of thumb in these cases is that the problem still exists unless proven otherwise. To give an example, Freeza's Golden Form limitation was said to be surpassed. If the writers wanted to make it clear the limitation was gone they would have said so or showed it clearly as resolved in action.

So my conclusion is that the limitation still exists, although it doesn't matter since Goku has access to far better transformations.

[ankokudaishogun]

If Goku's power was a 10 in the Buu arc where we saw him have issues then it's probably 100 now so there's no reason for him to have said issues anymore as he's vastly stronger than he was back then.

Unless the stamina loss is percentual, a flaw in the transformation itself so more stamina you have more you lose.
Basically, SS3 is SS2 Grade 3.

IIRC he DID master it in GT

[Cetra]

IIRC he DID master it in GT

His tail gave him more power control so he was able to use it against Baby.

In Super we at least can say that the form is still problematic if he is regenerating because against Caulifla and Kale he did not want to keep it up. SO I guess he is now good enough to use it very long without problems but not when he is exhausted. I mean - he kinda never had that much trouble with it to begin with. Even while being alive he had no problem using it against Kid Boo before focussing energy.

[Lord Frieza]

IIRC he DID master it in GT

His tail gave him more power control so he was able to use it against Baby.

In Super we at least can say that the form is still problematic if he is regenerating because against Caulifla and Kale he did not want to keep it up. SO I guess he is now good enough to use it very long without problems but not when he is exhausted. I mean - he kinda never had that much trouble with it to begin with. Even while being alive he had no problem using it against Kid Boo before focussing energy.

If Goku's power was a 10 in the Buu arc where we saw him have issues then it's probably 100 now so there's no reason for him to have said issues anymore as he's vastly stronger than he was back then.

Unless the stamina loss is percentual, a flaw in the transformation itself so more stamina you have more you lose.
Basically, SS3 is SS2 Grade 3.

IIRC he DID master it in GT

Outside of films, SS3 was a form that caused a lot of problems for the user inspite of its power. Goku never got a handle on it, in his fight with Majin Buu yousing the form rapidly burnt out his remaing time on earth (the worst of it's effect possible being prevented by Goku being dead at the time) and when he used it against Kid Buu he lost power faster then he could gain it and passed out in the middle of the battle. Gotenk, who was both more powerful and seemed to have a better handle on the form the Goku did, had his fusion time cut to 5 minutes, which make the 10 minutes of SS4 and the 30 minutes of SSB Potara look reasoable by comparison. In Gt the power drain was so great Goku would just turn back almost instantly and could only maintain it with his tail regrown, there no evidence he'd mastered is since his fight with Baby is much shorter then his fight with Buu and could simple be that he's now able to use the form as normal again. In super post Beerus, the form is relegated to being used as a finisher/desperation move rather then something for prolonged battle as Goku never attempts to use it as such. Trunks in fact seems to do the same with Grade 3

Toriyama's words if I remember correctly were that is was a strained or forced version SS. I agree with the above statement that SS3's stamina issue is an inhereant flaw with the form as with Grade 3. Both forms are essentially the previous form's traits (Grade 2/SS2) turned up to 11,exacerbating both strengths and weakness.

[Cetra]

Outside of films, SS3 was a form that caused a lot of problems for the user inspite of its power. Goku never got a handle on it, in his fight with Majin Buu yousing the form rapidly burnt out his remaing time on earth (the worst of it's effect possible being prevented by Goku being dead at the time) and when he used it against Kid Buu he lost power faster then he could gain it and passed out in the middle of the battle. Gotenk, who was both more powerful and seemed to have a better handle on the form the Goku did, had his fusion time cut to 5 minutes, which make the 10 minutes of SS4 and the 30 minutes of SSB Potara look reasoable by comparison. In Gt the power drain was so great Goku would just turn back almost instantly and could only maintain it with his tail regrown, there no evidence he'd mastered is since his fight with Baby is much shorter then his fight with Buu and could simple be that he's now able to use the form as normal again. In super post Beerus, the form is relegated to being used as a finisher/desperation move rather then something for prolonged battle as Goku never attempts to use it as such. Trunks in fact seems to do the same with Grade 3

Toriyama's words if I remember correctly were that is was a strained or forced version SS. I agree with the above statement that SS3's stamina issue is an inhereant flaw with the form as with Grade 3. Both forms are essentially the previous form's traits (Grade 2/SS2) turned up to 11,exacerbating both strengths and weakness.

Apart from you telling me a bunch of stuff I know already from the manga and anime, yes, there is evidence for the tail. Goku immediately fell out of SSJ3 in GT and reverted to base after one bunch. The tail somehow was supposed to give Goku more power but Baby was surprised that it did not happen - you literally just mentioned what contradicts you. It does not actually matter that the battle was not too long. The point is he did not revert from a drain (something that simply in fight 1 was a speed up effect of what happens as an adult as well). In reality though it /the tail later) allowed him the usage of SSJ3 without reverting. He reverted as a child early because of the drain but then had no problem using it. There is no "he could just normally use it" because they "normal" that you imagine is a draining state of the SSJ3 and that was already showed as a child in the first battle. It was a "normal" SSJ3 but as a child he cannot handle it. Afterwards he could. Why? Because the control was way better. What you think that was normal in fight 2 would require the usage of SSJ3 in battle 1 "less than normal". But just because he used a SSJ3 as a child it wasn't less of an ordinary SSJ3. The tail thing was nothing new at that point. Just as the tail already in the original gave him some advantages.

And even if we let that whole "no loss or less loss" aside, it does not really matter, the point is, the tail significantly betters it.

[Lord Frieza]

Apart from you telling me a bunch of stuff I know already from the manga and anime, yes, there is evidence for the tail. Goku immediately fell out of SSJ3 in GT and reverted to base after one bunch. The tail somehow was supposed to give Goku more power but Baby was surprised that it did not happen - you literally just mentioned what contradicts you. It does not actually matter that the battle was not too long. The point is he did not revert from a drain. In reality though it allowed him the usage of SSJ3 without reverting. Just as the tail already in the original gave him soma advatages.

First sorry I have a tendancy to go overboard when type, it gets even worse sometimes as I'll actually repeat myself on occation to.


Edit: Hold on I get it now, at least in the GT verse, Goku's base is improved by the tail and therefor his stamina problem with SS3 is improved. Yes your rIght. Sorry.

[PFM18]

I

f Goku's power was a 10 in the Buu arc where we saw him have issues then it's probably 100 now

...yeah I think that might be a bit of an understatement.

If Goku was a 10 in the Buu arc where he had issues it is probably somewhere in the ballpark of 1 million to 50 million somewhere around there.

[SonReggie]

It's a redundant form now anyway. Anime Future Trunks proved that SS2 could be mastered to point of being close to SS3 - and in the Manga Trunks had mastered SS2 it to the point of being able to MATCH SS3 Goku's power. Kudos to the manga for that.

And then there are the variants that have SS2 at their core, such as Vegeta's rage power-up (prompted by Beerus slapping Bulma) and Future Trunk's 'anger' transformation.

I can't help but wonder if Goku's motivation for encouraging Caulifla & Kale to acheive the form wasn't something to do with teaching them a lesson about mastering forms, although to be honest if he REALLY wanted to see them progress he could tell them about the Super Saiyan God ritual. It's not as if finding five Saiyans is much of an issue anymore.

[theherodjl]

It's a redundant form now anyway. Anime Future Trunks proved that SS2 could be mastered to point of being close to SS3 - and in the Manga Trunks had mastered SS2 it to the point of being able to MATCH SS3 Goku's power. Kudos to the manga for that.

And then there are the variants that have SS2 at their core, such as Vegeta's rage power-up (prompted by Beerus slapping Bulma) and Future Trunk's 'anger' transformation.

I can't help but wonder if Goku's motivation for encouraging Caulifla & Kale to acheive the form wasn't something to do with teaching them a lesson about mastering forms, although to be honest if he REALLY wanted to see them progress he could tell them about the Super Saiyan God ritual. It's not as if finding five Saiyans is much of an issue anymore.

I don't think its inherently redundant, but not ideal for drawn out fights in it's basic state. SSJ itself once had such a problem(though not quite to the same degree of SSJ3's drain) so its entirely possible that Caulifla/Kale/Kefla could master SSJ3 to such an extent that it grants them significantly more power as well as greatly reducing the strain that SSJ3 induces on Ki; a sort of "Full Power" or "Mastered" SSJ3. With SSJB Complete being a thing as well then they could also implement that concept onto SSJ3 or maybe even a superior version since they are prodigious.