Really specific Time machine question

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TobyS
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Really specific Time machine question

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:37 pm

So we know the first dragon team owned time machine was made explicitly to go back to the past, doing so creates a paradox which the universe resolves by splitting the timelines.

Going home to the present doesn't cause this problem, because you are already from there, the history hasn't been written yet.

Whatever roll with the above, what I'm wondering is:

What would happen if you made a time machine and FIRSTLY went forward in time?

My theory is this wouldn't split the timeline, it'd just be part of the futures history that you dissapeared one day and came back.
My theory is going back to just after you left the first time WOULD split the timeline, because now the future timeline, which saw you vanish and not be seen till later, has not been contradicted, a paradox has been created.....

What do you think?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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KBABZ
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:50 pm

TobyS wrote:So we know the first dragon team owned time machine was made explicitly to go back to the past, doing so creates a paradox which the universe resolves by splitting the timelines.

Going home to the present doesn't cause this problem, because you are already from there, the history hasn't been written yet.

Whatever roll with the above, what I'm wondering is:

What would happen if you made a time machine and FIRSTLY went forward in time?

My theory is this wouldn't split the timeline, it'd just be part of the futures history that you dissapeared one day and came back.
My theory is going back to just after you left the first time WOULD split the timeline, because now the future timeline, which saw you vanish and not be seen till later, has not been contradicted, a paradox has been created.....

What do you think?
I think it would still create a "paired" relationship, as my theory goes. Aka when the present eventually catches up with the point in time traveled to, the altered events would play out instead.

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TobyS
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by TobyS » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:54 pm

KBABZ wrote:
TobyS wrote:So we know the first dragon team owned time machine was made explicitly to go back to the past, doing so creates a paradox which the universe resolves by splitting the timelines.

Going home to the present doesn't cause this problem, because you are already from there, the history hasn't been written yet.

Whatever roll with the above, what I'm wondering is:

What would happen if you made a time machine and FIRSTLY went forward in time?

My theory is this wouldn't split the timeline, it'd just be part of the futures history that you dissapeared one day and came back.
My theory is going back to just after you left the first time WOULD split the timeline, because now the future timeline, which saw you vanish and not be seen till later, has not been contradicted, a paradox has been created.....

What do you think?
I think it would still create a "paired" relationship, as my theory goes. Aka when the present eventually catches up with the point in time traveled to, the altered events would play out instead.
So it splits when the past catches up, to the year of the future arrival time, and doesn't have someone appear in the future??
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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shadowfox87
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by shadowfox87 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:12 pm

TobyS wrote:So we know the first dragon team owned time machine was made explicitly to go back to the past, doing so creates a paradox which the universe resolves by splitting the timelines.

Going home to the present doesn't cause this problem, because you are already from there, the history hasn't been written yet.

Whatever roll with the above, what I'm wondering is:

What would happen if you made a time machine and FIRSTLY went forward in time?

My theory is this wouldn't split the timeline, it'd just be part of the futures history that you dissapeared one day and came back.
My theory is going back to just after you left the first time WOULD split the timeline, because now the future timeline, which saw you vanish and not be seen till later, has not been contradicted, a paradox has been created.....

What do you think?
Yes, you are correct. Going to the future doesn't create a paradox and hence, it doesn't split the timeline. Also, yes going to a point in time BEFORE you left creates a paradox. This is also why Trunks has to return to a point AFTER he left in the future and not before he left. Each timeline is continuously flowing independently. Time that passes in one timeline is also passing in another.

In addition, if you went to a point in the past, it creates a paradox so a new timeline is created. Now let's say you went back to the future and went back to that new timeline that was created, but to a point AFTER you left. In this case, there is no paradox and a new timeline isn't created. Trunks visited the main timeline twice. The first time created a split, the second time it didn't because he traveled to a point in the future of the last time he visited.

I wrote a very long theory about this already but it is consistent with everything you've said so I think you'd be in agreement. Check it out. The link is in my sig.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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KBABZ
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by KBABZ » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Now I'm not so sure. Dragon Ball time travel is so confusing!

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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by Vertical » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:57 pm

A character leaves the present and travels to the future.

Situation 1: In the future, they discover that after they left the present they were never seen again.
- If they die before returning or simply live on in the future; no paradox is created. A single timeline.
- If they return to the present then they have created a paradox. Timeline split.

Situation 2: In the future, they discover that after they left the present they eventually returned and existed in the present again.
- If they die before returning or simply live on in the future; a paradox is created. Timeline split.
- If they return to the present then no paradox is created. A single timeline.

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TobyS
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by TobyS » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:18 am

Vertical wrote:A character leaves the present and travels to the future.

Situation 1: In the future, they discover that after they left the present they were never seen again.
- If they die before returning or simply live on in the future; no paradox is created. A single timeline.
- If they return to the present then they have created a paradox. Timeline split.

Situation 2: In the future, they discover that after they left the present they eventually returned and existed in the present again.
- If they die before returning or simply live on in the future; a paradox is created. Timeline split.
- If they return to the present then no paradox is created. A single timeline.
Yeah must be one of these 2, we just have no precedent in the series.

Unless the machine can only go back in time, and it returning home isn't really the same as truly cutting through time forwards in the true sense.

Like it might not be possible to travel forward in time in db via a Bulma machine I don't think we see them go past the present even in xenoverse. Just that the present in those games is already years later. Only the time ring can do it and only with really strict rules.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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shadowfox87
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:55 pm

TobyS wrote: Unless the machine can only go back in time, and it returning home isn't really the same as truly cutting through time forwards in the true sense.

Like it might not be possible to travel forward in time in db via a Bulma machine I don't think we see them go past the present even in xenoverse. Just that the present in those games is already years later. Only the time ring can do it and only with really strict rules.
Going to the future in general does not create any paradox. This is why time rings can be used to travel to the future. In DBS, Gowasu and Zamasu traveled 1000 years in the future. This is why no new time splits are created when using time rings and why it's even allowed to begin with.

Using Bulma's time machine, it would also be theoretically possible to travel to the future also. There's no reason why it couldn't. Using a time machine to go to the past and then return to its origin, still counts as going to the past and traveling to the future. It would make no logical sense to say that it's not traveling forward in time when returning to the future.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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TobyS
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by TobyS » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:34 am

shadowfox87 wrote:
TobyS wrote: Unless the machine can only go back in time, and it returning home isn't really the same as truly cutting through time forwards in the true sense.

Like it might not be possible to travel forward in time in db via a Bulma machine I don't think we see them go past the present even in xenoverse. Just that the present in those games is already years later. Only the time ring can do it and only with really strict rules.
Going to the future in general does not create any paradox. This is why time rings can be used to travel to the future. In DBS, Gowasu and Zamasu traveled 1000 years in the future. This is why no new time splits are created when using time rings and why it's even allowed to begin with.

Using Bulma's time machine, it would also be theoretically possible to travel to the future also. There's no reason why it couldn't. Using a time machine to go to the past and then return to its origin, still counts as going to the past and traveling to the future. It would make no logical sense to say that it's not traveling forward in time when returning to the future.
It's like tunneling backwards and then going back up the tunnel . tunnelling forwards in time might be different.

It probably isn't but we have no precedent is all I'm saying.

There are differences between Time Machine, Ring and Time Nest Time travel. They have different rules and abilities.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:41 am

TobyS wrote:So we know the first dragon team owned time machine was made explicitly to go back to the past, doing so creates a paradox which the universe resolves by splitting the timelines.

Going home to the present doesn't cause this problem, because you are already from there, the history hasn't been written yet.

Whatever roll with the above, what I'm wondering is:

What would happen if you made a time machine and FIRSTLY went forward in time?

My theory is this wouldn't split the timeline, it'd just be part of the futures history that you dissapeared one day and came back.
My theory is going back to just after you left the first time WOULD split the timeline, because now the future timeline, which saw you vanish and not be seen till later, has not been contradicted, a paradox has been created.....

What do you think?
So long as you're not going forward into a timeline in which history has already been established (say, were they somehow to go forward into Trunks' future, but at a point prior to his last visit back), I would agree with you. No paradox is occurring, so no splinter timeline would form.

On that note, Zamasu's going to show up on Planet Barbari in Universe 10 thousands of years from now for a split second and then disappear.

Dragon Ball's time-travel mechanics aren't really all that complicated. They can be sorted out with one simple rule: If changes are made that would contradict someone's known history, then a new timeline is formed. If they aren't, one isn't.

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shadowfox87
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Re: Really specific Time machine question

Post by shadowfox87 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:26 am

TobyS wrote: It's like tunneling backwards and then going back up the tunnel . tunnelling forwards in time might be different.

It probably isn't but we have no precedent is all I'm saying.

There are differences between Time Machine, Ring and Time Nest Time travel. They have different rules and abilities.
The Time Nest is just a dimension that exists outside of time. Time Rings only go to the future and then back. It makes sense that gods banned time travel but allowed the use of time rings since they can only go to the future. Time Machines can go to the future and the past. If traveling back to the future wouldn't count as traveling forward in time, that wouldn't make sense. The time machine as Pilaf explained (and I also explained in my article), can be programmed to a specific frequency that corresponds to a specific parallel timeline. The time machine goes to that timeline based on the date that it is entered. So yes, the time machine can indeed go to the future or to the past. Time scrolls and Towa's dark magic use magic and create wormholes to a specific point in time and space.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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